|
Dreamhack Rebalance?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KQ2C5k6.jpg) http://i.imgur.com/KQ2C5k6
Dreamhack is coming soon. One of the first tournaments where money and results matter. I've talked to several people about balance at this point and have heard several opinions. I have three questions I pose.
My own thoughts on the current state of the game going into Dreamhack.
+ Show Spoiler +
I think Dreamhack will be a zerg dominated tournament. In my own personal opinion this is more do to the map pool than the balance. The problem is that many of the maps favor the style that is most abusive for zerg. Primarily, high drones counts, many bases and map control. For example, I don't see protosses getting many wins vs zerg on Lerilak or Prion terraces. Thus, there are two autobans already. I would like to see the 4th base for zergs on prion terraces be regular minerals, and i would like to see lerilak crest have a bit smaller choke into one of the third bases. I would also like to see more paths opened up on Dusk towers. Ruins of seras i think is hard vs zerg due to its size and the map pool favors zerg so much at the moment.
As far as unit rebalance, its hard for me to ask for something specific with this map pool. At this time personally, i would only like to see a change on ravagers requiring lair. The most common abusive things I hear are parasitic bomb from vipers, lack of late game for terran, Oracle stasis being too robust after the harass, Roach-ravager pushes, and liberator bio tank pushes. The lurkers themselves i think are ok, but maybe they still come out a bit fast given the effectiveness of the ravagers and the ease of using them in conjunction with mutas. Ravagers I feel can dictate the game a bit, and came make midgame scouting hard since you have to defend so much against it. Protoss disruptors seem to have huge damage coming from them, maybe this is a problem. Some people want to see more colossus/carrier play. I just don't think its good to make it return so early in lotv before more tournaments can use the new strategies and test them.
------------------------------
Poll: Should LOTV be rebalanced in any way before Dreamhack?Yes, unit stats should be rebalanced. (13) 9% Yes, maps should be changed or need work. (22) 15% Yes, both unit stats should change and maps need some work. (24) 17% No, leave everything as it is. (86) 59% 145 total votes Your vote: Should LOTV be rebalanced in any way before Dreamhack? (Vote): Yes, unit stats should be rebalanced.
(Vote): Yes, maps should be changed or need work.
(Vote): Yes, both unit stats should change and maps need some work.
(Vote): No, leave everything as it is.
------------------------------
Here's a link in case you don't remember the map names.
Link:1v1 Ladder Maps on liquipedia
Poll: What is the biggest map design issue to address for Dreamhack?None, the maps are just fine (25) 36% Prion Terraces, 3rd and 4th bases have gold minerals or other issue (19) 27% Lerilak Crest, to much area to defend around either third base or other issue (17) 24% Ulrena, to small of a path between the opponents or other issue (4) 6% Central Protocol, too much space between bases or other issue (4) 6% Orbital Shipyard, To large of an area in front of the 4th base or other issue (1) 1% Dusk Towers, only one attack path or other issue (0) 0% Ruins of Seras, to open of a large map or other issue (0) 0% 70 total votes Your vote: What is the biggest map design issue to address for Dreamhack? (Vote): Dusk Towers, only one attack path or other issue
(Vote): Orbital Shipyard, To large of an area in front of the 4th base or other issue
(Vote): Prion Terraces, 3rd and 4th bases have gold minerals or other issue
(Vote): Ulrena, to small of a path between the opponents or other issue
(Vote): Central Protocol, too much space between bases or other issue
(Vote): Lerilak Crest, to much area to defend around either third base or other issue
(Vote): Ruins of Seras, to open of a large map or other issue
(Vote): None, the maps are just fine
------------------------------
Poll: What is the unit which stats change is needed before Dreamhack?Adepts (5) 3% Sentries (0) 0% Disruptors (7) 4% Carriers (3) 2% Pylons/Overcharge (13) 8% Oracles (0) 0% Other Protoss Unit (1) 1% Marauders (0) 0% Ghosts (0) 0% Liberators (39) 24% Cyclones (6) 4% Tanks / Tank drops (5) 3% Widow Mines (2) 1% Other Terran Units (2) 1% Roaches (0) 0% Ravagers (33) 21% Lurkers (6) 4% Vipers (5) 3% Ultralisks (29) 18% Mutalisks (1) 1% Other Zerg Unit (3) 2% 160 total votes Your vote: What is the unit which stats change is needed before Dreamhack? (Vote): Adepts
(Vote): Sentries
(Vote): Disruptors
(Vote): Carriers
(Vote): Pylons/Overcharge
(Vote): Oracles
(Vote): Other Protoss Unit
(Vote): Marauders
(Vote): Ghosts
(Vote): Liberators
(Vote): Cyclones
(Vote): Tanks / Tank drops
(Vote): Widow Mines
(Vote): Other Terran Units
(Vote): Roaches
(Vote): Ravagers
(Vote): Lurkers
(Vote): Vipers
(Vote): Ultralisks
(Vote): Mutalisks
(Vote): Other Zerg Unit
|
Wasn't Lerilak Crest a terrible 2v2 map back from WoL? Well it's even more terrible in 1v1, you don't need to look at it twice to know that it's just bad, even if it was balanced it's bad, but it's not balanced so it's something much worse.
|
It's not like the results of a tournament with 4 Koreans matter very much any ways. When Proleague starts and/or we get Kespa Cup in December then the results will be meaningful.
|
i think the ravager should be like the lurker, you can keep it hatch tech but make zerg have to morph a ravager den to delay then enough so the opponent can handle them, but not so late as lair since there a glass cannon roach.
then maybe do something about the maps. I do agree they are helping zerg alot but if you just toned down the ravager I think it would be ok.
|
Interesting, I've heard many notable pros, such as huk, puckk, state talk about the huge problem the golds present on Prion Terraces, but then the poll votes for Lerilak Crest. I have heard some pros say that the races feel balanced roughly and that its mostly a map issue. Other pros say zerg and terran is too strong. I have not heard any complaints about protoss balance. Some terrans were saying something about the single path on dusk towers is really hard vs zerg with lurkers.
Also, @starslayer, I do like your idea of having a roach warren upgrade to make ravagers much like is done with the hydra den to a lurker den. My main concern is having something practical that could be done over the weekend. I think in the long run your solution is better.
I'll make the units poll public after a bit longer due to low voting numbers early, I want a bit more time to settle in what people think.
|
On November 20 2015 09:59 ZAiNs wrote:
It's not like the results of a tournament with 4 Koreans matter very much any ways. When Proleague starts and/or we get Kespa Cup in December then the results will be meaningful.
You don't think a tournament with 50.000$ on the line matter?
|
Protoss players will veto prion terraces that's all.
|
I think the most obvious answer not included in the poll of units for adjusting: nydus worm? I mean, I guess it's not technically a "unit," but it certainly feels like the most glaring potential issue right now
|
I think it's best to leave it as it is right now instead of forcing the players to relearn stuff right before the first big tournament. And then adjust as necessary after Dreamhack.
|
I think it tool Zergs almost 6 months to work out Widow Mines after HOTs release They nerfed them, then the nerf was eventually reversed after it was released Window Mines were almost useless..
I would give it 6 months at least before any changes to units.This is the last expansion so whats the rush?
Maps can be tweaked to adjust balance just like in Broodwar.
|
Right now, we don't have enough data to make any kind of "informed decision". Any attempt at "rebalancing" now would be a shot in the dark. There are things that look strong right now, but I doubt anyone is able to say with 100% certainty that anything is broken.
However, this Dreamhack will provide us with a big number of games, and this will help us get a clearer picture. IMHO, no balance change should occur for a couple months. If by end of January/February, zergs still dominate all competition (Olimoleague, DHack, GPL, Shoutcraft, HomeStoryCup, and all the other tournaments that will have happened until then), then a balance action should be carefully considered.
We have to give more time to the pros to figure stuff out. After all, they have a lot of work, they have to:
- Update their scouting timings/patterns and knowing what/when to look for
- Update their builds and developp new ones (cheeses, timing attacks, macro builds)
- Knowing how to "play things out" (do I put constant pressure and parade push with that new unit comp ? do I wait for an upgrade to finish and take a more timing oriented approach ? do I play it defensive with only small harrass ? etc)
- Learning the ideal reactions to all these new builds/attacks (do I add cannons/bunkers ? do I counter drop to force them back ? do I cancel upgrades to churn out more units ? etc)
- Mastering the new micro opportunities (tank drop, ravager shots, disruptor, etc)
- ...
|
On November 20 2015 18:05 LoneYoShi wrote:
Right now, we don't have enough data to make any kind of "informed decision". Any attempt at "rebalancing" now would be a shot in the dark. There are things that look strong right now, but I doubt anyone is able to say with 100% certainty that anything is broken.
However, this Dreamhack will provide us with a big number of games, and this will help us get a clearer picture. IMHO, no balance change should occur for a couple months. If by end of January/February, zergs still dominate all competition (Olimoleague, DHack, GPL, Shoutcraft, HomeStoryCup, and all the other tournaments that will have happened until then), then a balance action should be carefully considered.
We have to give more time to the pros to figure stuff out. After all, they have a lot of work, they have to:
- Update their scouting timings/patterns and knowing what/when to look for
- Update their builds and developp new ones (cheeses, timing attacks, macro builds)
- Knowing how to "play things out" (do I put constant pressure and parade push with that new unit comp ? do I wait for an upgrade to finish and take a more timing oriented approach ? do I play it defensive with only small harrass ? etc)
- Learning the ideal reactions to all these new builds/attacks (do I add cannons/bunkers ? do I counter drop to force them back ? do I cancel upgrades to churn out more units ? etc)
- Mastering the new micro opportunities (tank drop, ravager shots, disruptor, etc)
- ...
I kind of disagree with your idea of it being a shot in the dark. Its not just 1-2 players saying this is a problem. Given how much pros talk about zerg being strong and have 3 maps that are hard to beat zerg on/not enough vetoes. There are three problems here.
- Can 1 person sit and gain an advantage just by never being aggressive or defensive?
- Is there almost risk to being punished for being aggressive?
- Is the map pool representative about the types of games blizzard is thinking of balancing around?
I do think there is room for improvement in the map pool by quite a bit and should be something discussed before Dreamhack. There is a lot of money here, and small tweeks I think could help. I wonder if 6 gold bases in the middle of the map/Large open areas/Very large maps is representative of the balance the game is being designed around.
|
The only thing I see it really needs a fix is parasitic bomb. The rest...please give some months to the pro player explore all options!
|
|
|
There is not enough time to make changes and see if they were good or bad, let's see how it plays out. The first few tournaments will be rough but at least I think they will move quickly based on tournament results.
Also, don't forget that when Blizzard try to balance it is not pretty.
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Stop whine about ultralisks. Ghosts can annihilate them pretty easily.
Ravagers must be armored. Thats all. Let the meta develop itself.
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 21 2015 02:35 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The only thing I see it really needs a fix is parasitic bomb. The rest...please give some months to the pro player explore all options!
Just split units and bomb becomes useless
|
On November 20 2015 11:06 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 09:59 ZAiNs wrote:
It's not like the results of a tournament with 4 Koreans matter very much any ways. When Proleague starts and/or we get Kespa Cup in December then the results will be meaningful. You don't think a tournament with 50.000$ on the line matter?
Not when it comes to making claims about the balance of a [~1 month old] game.
|
On November 21 2015 02:57 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 02:35 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The only thing I see it really needs a fix is parasitic bomb. The rest...please give some months to the pro player explore all options! Just split units and bomb becomes useless
please show me a vod/replay of a terran beating mass BL/corruptor/viper
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 21 2015 03:07 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:06 ejozl wrote:On November 20 2015 09:59 ZAiNs wrote:
It's not like the results of a tournament with 4 Koreans matter very much any ways. When Proleague starts and/or we get Kespa Cup in December then the results will be meaningful. You don't think a tournament with 50.000$ on the line matter? Not when it comes to making claims about the balance of a [~1 month old] game.
The problem is that there is not enough competition to balance it out before the important stuff starts. Once some players are out from GSL/SSL/WCS it will be hard to get back just because Blizzard cannot balance the game properly and does not want to delay the release. I really do not want to see another bad season of GSL(and seasons with 5 Protoss in RO32 or 3 Terrans in RO32 were bad from spectators side)
Edit: ALso once you are out you have a loooong time of nothingness which is bad too.
|
Haha, the same threads always come out right after release, the only thing that's different is the race/units. WOL was "omg Protoss deathballs" and HOTS was "Omg Terran hellbats and mines" and now the cycle is complete with "well Zerg is OP now so nerfs plz".
As a Zerg player I admit Ravagers do feel kinda quick and kind of overwhelming even in our mirror so an ever so slight gentle nerf might be appropriate and the new Nydus worm is really terrible design.
But beyond that, let the Koreans develop the meta for the next few months before any more balance decisions are made, alot of things got changed/added and we all damn well know that every race is going to go through a swing of being overpowered and underpowered so theres no point in gimping any races units over kneejerk reactions from angry ladder people.
|
On November 20 2015 11:06 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 09:59 ZAiNs wrote:
It's not like the results of a tournament with 4 Koreans matter very much any ways. When Proleague starts and/or we get Kespa Cup in December then the results will be meaningful. You don't think a tournament with 50.000$ on the line matter?
No. The money is significant but the results aren't. Blizzard has done what they could with inferior players testing. The rest will have to wait for when Proleague starts. Yeah, the results next year are going to be shitty because the game won't be close to being balanced for months but what can anybody realistically do?
|
No way! I love these first tournaments, before the balance patches and better maps appear.
|
On November 21 2015 02:35 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The only thing I see it really needs a fix is parasitic bomb. The rest...please give some months to the pro player explore all options!
This except for changing parasitic bomb 
Really, wait 3 months before patching. E.g. I always die to Liberators but I think they shouldn't even change those until time tells they're indeed too strong. It takes time to learn a new game.
|
16 second pylon warp ins....
Like how about you just get rid of warp gate then Blizzard?
|
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences.
|
On November 21 2015 06:59 avilo wrote:
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences.
TL;DR Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Buff Terran!
|
No other way then to wait for the big korean leagues next year. Foreign scene isnt able to judge due to the low amount of decent players.
|
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
also probably the wrong thread if you want blizzard to read it.
|
Zerg profits the most from the new mineralsystem because their hatcheries are bases and production facilities at the same time so Zerg gets more army.
Also Zerg received huge buffs at ground with lurkers and ultralisks and in the air with parasitic bomb.
Zerg seems to be the strongest race at the moment.
|
On November 21 2015 07:21 Leviance wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 06:59 avilo wrote:
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences. TL;DR Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Buff Terran!
I don't agree with avilo's suggestions, but at least don't misrepresent him. What buff did he ask for? The cyclone buff? Because he also asked for liberators and reapers to be nerfed, so ya know, "Buff Terran" is a kinda bullshit TL;DR.
|
On November 21 2015 07:45 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 07:21 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 06:59 avilo wrote:
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences. TL;DR Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Buff Terran! I don't agree with avilo's suggestions, but at least don't misrepresent him. What buff did he ask for? The cyclone buff? Because he also asked for liberators and reapers to be nerfed, so ya know, "Buff Terran" is a kinda bullshit TL;DR.
It's not "bullshit" as you call it. Reaper should get sth better than thier grenades and cyclones should be cheaper or have better stats. That's more buffs than nerfs no? And nerfing Toss and ZErg the way he wants it is Teran buff enough even without the direct ones. But thanks for calling it bullshit! You are a very clever person.
|
On November 21 2015 08:36 Leviance wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 07:45 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 07:21 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 06:59 avilo wrote:
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences. TL;DR Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Buff Terran! I don't agree with avilo's suggestions, but at least don't misrepresent him. What buff did he ask for? The cyclone buff? Because he also asked for liberators and reapers to be nerfed, so ya know, "Buff Terran" is a kinda bullshit TL;DR. It's not "bullshit" as you call it. Reaper should get sth better than thier grenades and cyclones should be cheaper or have better stats. That's more buffs than nerfs no? And nerfing Toss and ZErg the way he wants it is Teran buff enough even without the direct ones. But thanks for calling it bullshit! You are a very clever person.
He leads with "remove the reaper grenade, it's bullshit early game" and then suggests that maybe somehow a lategame ability could make them relevant. The latter is a highly hypothetical buff he wants some day, the former is a very concrete and obvious nerf he wants now.
Yes, he asks for some kind of cost reduction on cyclones, but I don't think anyone would say cyclones are OP right now (if anything, most complaints are that they're useless and have no place in their current iteration). Meanwhile he asks for liberator nerfs, which would really clearly hurt Terran a lot more than dropping cyclones to 150/100 or something would help.
If you had said you disagree with the Terran buffs that he does suggest, that'd be fine. If you'd summarized as "Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Nerf Terran slightly, and buff them again!" that would be less objectionable. But no plausible reading of his post suggests that he wants an overall buff to Terran. You're basing that entirely on his reputation.
|
Central Prodigal is terrible, Lerilak is vetoed by everyone so I never play on it, and the double golds and short rush distance on prion favors zerg too much
|
I think the absolute mirroredness of the maps is kind of silly;
But this causes 'imbalance'? Having to adjust fits right in with the rest of
the game and gamestyle lol.
|
On November 21 2015 08:43 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 08:36 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 07:45 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 07:21 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 06:59 avilo wrote:
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences. TL;DR Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Buff Terran! I don't agree with avilo's suggestions, but at least don't misrepresent him. What buff did he ask for? The cyclone buff? Because he also asked for liberators and reapers to be nerfed, so ya know, "Buff Terran" is a kinda bullshit TL;DR. It's not "bullshit" as you call it. Reaper should get sth better than thier grenades and cyclones should be cheaper or have better stats. That's more buffs than nerfs no? And nerfing Toss and ZErg the way he wants it is Teran buff enough even without the direct ones. But thanks for calling it bullshit! You are a very clever person. He leads with "remove the reaper grenade, it's bullshit early game" and then suggests that maybe somehow a lategame ability could make them relevant. The latter is a highly hypothetical buff he wants some day, the former is a very concrete and obvious nerf he wants now. Yes, he asks for some kind of cost reduction on cyclones, but I don't think anyone would say cyclones are OP right now (if anything, most complaints are that they're useless and have no place in their current iteration). Meanwhile he asks for liberator nerfs, which would really clearly hurt Terran a lot more than dropping cyclones to 150/100 or something would help. If you had said you disagree with the Terran buffs that he does suggest, that'd be fine. If you'd summarized as "Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Nerf Terran slightly, and buff them again!" that would be less objectionable. But no plausible reading of his post suggests that he wants an overall buff to Terran. You're basing that entirely on his reputation.
You have to agree that the "I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased" from avilo was pretty funny though. 
Everyone and their dog knows that avilo loves his mech over everything else. Which is perfectly fine, I don't mind mech and people are allowed to like whatever playstyle they like (except cannon rush). I have my own personal preference for melee zerg for example (so if I claim that the the armour 8 ultra "is fine", take it with a grain of salt). But when you have this strong preference not only for a race, but for a playstyle, you have to admit to yourself that anything coming out of you will be heavily biased.
I'm happy with avilo joining the debate, he likely knows a lot of subtle details about mech. However, expertise doesn't exclude bias.
On a different note, are there any early stats on win rates for different races in lotv? From ladder or smaller tournaments? By map would be cool in the light of this OP, but I assume there are too few games already, even if you sum over maps.
|
On November 21 2015 11:15 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 08:43 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 08:36 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 07:45 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 07:21 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 06:59 avilo wrote:
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences. TL;DR Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Buff Terran! I don't agree with avilo's suggestions, but at least don't misrepresent him. What buff did he ask for? The cyclone buff? Because he also asked for liberators and reapers to be nerfed, so ya know, "Buff Terran" is a kinda bullshit TL;DR. It's not "bullshit" as you call it. Reaper should get sth better than thier grenades and cyclones should be cheaper or have better stats. That's more buffs than nerfs no? And nerfing Toss and ZErg the way he wants it is Teran buff enough even without the direct ones. But thanks for calling it bullshit! You are a very clever person. He leads with "remove the reaper grenade, it's bullshit early game" and then suggests that maybe somehow a lategame ability could make them relevant. The latter is a highly hypothetical buff he wants some day, the former is a very concrete and obvious nerf he wants now. Yes, he asks for some kind of cost reduction on cyclones, but I don't think anyone would say cyclones are OP right now (if anything, most complaints are that they're useless and have no place in their current iteration). Meanwhile he asks for liberator nerfs, which would really clearly hurt Terran a lot more than dropping cyclones to 150/100 or something would help. If you had said you disagree with the Terran buffs that he does suggest, that'd be fine. If you'd summarized as "Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Nerf Terran slightly, and buff them again!" that would be less objectionable. But no plausible reading of his post suggests that he wants an overall buff to Terran. You're basing that entirely on his reputation. You have to agree that the "I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased" from avilo was pretty funny though. Everyone and their dog knows that avilo loves his mech over everything else. Which is perfectly fine, I don't mind mech and people are allowed to like whatever playstyle they like (except cannon rush). I have my own personal preference for melee zerg for example (so if I claim that the the armour 8 ultra "is fine", take it with a grain of salt). But when you have this strong preference not only for a race, but for a playstyle, you have to admit to yourself that anything coming out of you will be heavily biased. I'm happy with avilo joining the debate, he likely knows a lot of subtle details about mech. However, expertise doesn't exclude bias. On a different note, are there any early stats on win rates for different races in lotv? From ladder or smaller tournaments? By map would be cool in the light of this OP, but I assume there are too few games already, even if you sum over maps.
Oh sure. Not only do I disagree with many of avilo's suggestions, I would also acknowledge that his suggestions often reflect a pro-Terran bias. I just think it's shitty when people immediately scoff and start acting like assholes just because they know who avilo is and like to feel superior. I mean honestly, if you had to make a list of the top 9 elements of LotV gameplay that Blizzard should be keeping their eye on, it would probably look something like ultralisk, parasitic bomb, carrier, liberator, reaper, pylon overcharge, nydus worm, reaper mines, ravagers, and cyclones. People might disagree on the urgency of addressing any one of those units, but that's a pretty reasonable list of potentially problematic items. Compare to DinoMight's list in his most recent blog. DinoMight's opinions are, in several cases, much less unanimous in the community, and much more Protoss-favored.
|
I really hope they DONT nerf the new ultra. Finally a T3 Zerg unit to be feared. Ultras SHOULD own bio... they are a huge, godzilla-sized armored unit. Puny marines should only tickle them. Terrans, bring out the heavy artillery!
In general, I'm hoping Blizz doesn't do any 'knee-jerk' nerfs and give people some time to figure things out. The only changes they should be making before the end of the year are bug fixes and if something REALLY abusive comes out (like HOTS hellbats).
|
On November 21 2015 13:41 ElMeanYo wrote:
I really hope they DONT nerf the new ultra. Finally a T3 Zerg unit to be feared. Ultras SHOULD own bio... they are a huge, godzilla-sized armored unit. Puny marines should only tickle them. Terrans, bring out the heavy artillery!
In general, I'm hoping Blizz doesn't do any 'knee-jerk' nerfs and give people some time to figure things out. The only changes they should be making before the end of the year are bug fixes and if something REALLY abusive comes out (like HOTS hellbats).
I mean marines didn't do much to them in HotS. What concerns me more is that marauders do so little, given that marauders' whole job is to kill armored targets. I mean ultralisks were really scary in HotS TvZ (or even WoL, for that matter), but what was nice was that if you were smart, you could prepare by getting a lot of tech lab barracks. I don't really know what to prepare with now – tanks and thors aren't actually very good against ultras. All I can think of is getting a lot of liberators to discourage them from going ultra in the first place.
Edit: that said, I agree that they should wait to change anything. Lowering ultralisk armor might be necessary some day, but it would be premature now.
|
If they ever nerf Ultralisks it should just be -1 Armor and nothing else. I do feel the ease of using Ultralisks versus the difficulty of what you have to do against it is pretty lop-sided, but the counterplay should be demanded.
|
Revert marauder nerf anyone? I never understood that nerf, did anyone really think marauders were OP?
|
I don't think Blizzard ever gave an official statement as to why they nerfed Marauders.
If I had to take a guess, it's because Marauders were too strong against every ground unit in the game for their cost, and LotV Beta was their chance to change that. Marauders got a lot of flack during WoL for this.
|
That's sort of strange considering that marauder-heavy compositions haven't been that common since, well, WoL. I mean yeah everyone thought they were bullshit in WoL beta, but that was WoL beta. Hell, Davies even used them as an example of a unit people thought was broken but wasn't when he was suggesting the adept might not be as OP as everyone thought it was. So why nerf it?
|
On November 21 2015 13:37 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 11:15 Cascade wrote:On November 21 2015 08:43 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 08:36 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 07:45 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 07:21 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 06:59 avilo wrote:
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences. TL;DR Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Buff Terran! I don't agree with avilo's suggestions, but at least don't misrepresent him. What buff did he ask for? The cyclone buff? Because he also asked for liberators and reapers to be nerfed, so ya know, "Buff Terran" is a kinda bullshit TL;DR. It's not "bullshit" as you call it. Reaper should get sth better than thier grenades and cyclones should be cheaper or have better stats. That's more buffs than nerfs no? And nerfing Toss and ZErg the way he wants it is Teran buff enough even without the direct ones. But thanks for calling it bullshit! You are a very clever person. He leads with "remove the reaper grenade, it's bullshit early game" and then suggests that maybe somehow a lategame ability could make them relevant. The latter is a highly hypothetical buff he wants some day, the former is a very concrete and obvious nerf he wants now. Yes, he asks for some kind of cost reduction on cyclones, but I don't think anyone would say cyclones are OP right now (if anything, most complaints are that they're useless and have no place in their current iteration). Meanwhile he asks for liberator nerfs, which would really clearly hurt Terran a lot more than dropping cyclones to 150/100 or something would help. If you had said you disagree with the Terran buffs that he does suggest, that'd be fine. If you'd summarized as "Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Nerf Terran slightly, and buff them again!" that would be less objectionable. But no plausible reading of his post suggests that he wants an overall buff to Terran. You're basing that entirely on his reputation. You have to agree that the "I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased" from avilo was pretty funny though. Everyone and their dog knows that avilo loves his mech over everything else. Which is perfectly fine, I don't mind mech and people are allowed to like whatever playstyle they like (except cannon rush). I have my own personal preference for melee zerg for example (so if I claim that the the armour 8 ultra "is fine", take it with a grain of salt). But when you have this strong preference not only for a race, but for a playstyle, you have to admit to yourself that anything coming out of you will be heavily biased. I'm happy with avilo joining the debate, he likely knows a lot of subtle details about mech. However, expertise doesn't exclude bias. On a different note, are there any early stats on win rates for different races in lotv? From ladder or smaller tournaments? By map would be cool in the light of this OP, but I assume there are too few games already, even if you sum over maps. Oh sure. Not only do I disagree with many of avilo's suggestions, I would also acknowledge that his suggestions often reflect a pro-Terran bias. I just think it's shitty when people immediately scoff and start acting like assholes just because they know who avilo is and like to feel superior. I mean honestly, if you had to make a list of the top 9 elements of LotV gameplay that Blizzard should be keeping their eye on, it would probably look something like ultralisk, parasitic bomb, carrier, liberator, reaper, pylon overcharge, nydus worm, reaper mines, ravagers, and cyclones. People might disagree on the urgency of addressing any one of those units, but that's a pretty reasonable list of potentially problematic items. Compare to DinoMight's list in his most recent blog. DinoMight's opinions are, in several cases, much less unanimous in the community, and much more Protoss-favored.
How the fuck are any of my suggestions a pro Terran bias when i'm literally asking for Terran units to be nerfed ROFL.
I think TL needs to get some mods up in this thread and clean out the trash posting from people not even reading content of posts and are trying to de-rail discussion like that other guy as well that didn't read any post in the thread, quoted my post, and then put "TL DR buff Terran."
Seriously? Shit post on some other site, not Teamliquid.net.
|
1. Blizzard balances for rank master - bronze through internal stats
2. Blizzard balances top level play through observing tournaments.
so what makes people think they have enough info of either at this point to act on it?
|
Russian Federation66 Posts
One the greatest issues with sc2 since wol grow to hots and pump to lotv is: unit/tech utility:
Liberator is extremely utility unit - counter both air and ground, fast, good cost efficient and only production/tech required is just starport. So eazy to get, pretty good in most of scenarios. Easier to countorl it rather than control vs it. Also, it's a counter to ultras/mutas and core unit vs toss.
same for Queens - only pool required, but no larva to morph. 150 mineral 175hp and 1 armor (not "armored") 5 range unit with 7 aa range, heal and creep spawn ability and the most imortant ability to double production power of hatch (+100% is 3 larva/45 sec). So creep+production+antiair+175hp 1 armor tanky range fighter.
Same for medivacs/prism/msc/orbitalcommand(mules) and warp tech - they are ez to get and so usefull in lots of scenarios.
There is No decision to get them. If u can - u'll get them asap.
|
On November 21 2015 17:08 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 13:37 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 11:15 Cascade wrote:On November 21 2015 08:43 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 08:36 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 07:45 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 07:21 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 06:59 avilo wrote:
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences. TL;DR Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Buff Terran! I don't agree with avilo's suggestions, but at least don't misrepresent him. What buff did he ask for? The cyclone buff? Because he also asked for liberators and reapers to be nerfed, so ya know, "Buff Terran" is a kinda bullshit TL;DR. It's not "bullshit" as you call it. Reaper should get sth better than thier grenades and cyclones should be cheaper or have better stats. That's more buffs than nerfs no? And nerfing Toss and ZErg the way he wants it is Teran buff enough even without the direct ones. But thanks for calling it bullshit! You are a very clever person. He leads with "remove the reaper grenade, it's bullshit early game" and then suggests that maybe somehow a lategame ability could make them relevant. The latter is a highly hypothetical buff he wants some day, the former is a very concrete and obvious nerf he wants now. Yes, he asks for some kind of cost reduction on cyclones, but I don't think anyone would say cyclones are OP right now (if anything, most complaints are that they're useless and have no place in their current iteration). Meanwhile he asks for liberator nerfs, which would really clearly hurt Terran a lot more than dropping cyclones to 150/100 or something would help. If you had said you disagree with the Terran buffs that he does suggest, that'd be fine. If you'd summarized as "Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Nerf Terran slightly, and buff them again!" that would be less objectionable. But no plausible reading of his post suggests that he wants an overall buff to Terran. You're basing that entirely on his reputation. You have to agree that the "I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased" from avilo was pretty funny though. Everyone and their dog knows that avilo loves his mech over everything else. Which is perfectly fine, I don't mind mech and people are allowed to like whatever playstyle they like (except cannon rush). I have my own personal preference for melee zerg for example (so if I claim that the the armour 8 ultra "is fine", take it with a grain of salt). But when you have this strong preference not only for a race, but for a playstyle, you have to admit to yourself that anything coming out of you will be heavily biased. I'm happy with avilo joining the debate, he likely knows a lot of subtle details about mech. However, expertise doesn't exclude bias. On a different note, are there any early stats on win rates for different races in lotv? From ladder or smaller tournaments? By map would be cool in the light of this OP, but I assume there are too few games already, even if you sum over maps. Oh sure. Not only do I disagree with many of avilo's suggestions, I would also acknowledge that his suggestions often reflect a pro-Terran bias. I just think it's shitty when people immediately scoff and start acting like assholes just because they know who avilo is and like to feel superior. I mean honestly, if you had to make a list of the top 9 elements of LotV gameplay that Blizzard should be keeping their eye on, it would probably look something like ultralisk, parasitic bomb, carrier, liberator, reaper, pylon overcharge, nydus worm, reaper mines, ravagers, and cyclones. People might disagree on the urgency of addressing any one of those units, but that's a pretty reasonable list of potentially problematic items. Compare to DinoMight's list in his most recent blog. DinoMight's opinions are, in several cases, much less unanimous in the community, and much more Protoss-favored. How the fuck are any of my suggestions a pro Terran bias when i'm literally asking for Terran units to be nerfed ROFL. I think TL needs to get some mods up in this thread and clean out the trash posting from people not even reading content of posts and are trying to de-rail discussion like that other guy as well that didn't read any post in the thread, quoted my post, and then put "TL DR buff Terran." Seriously? Shit post on some other site, not Teamliquid.net.
That would be rather ironic for me to get banned for calling you biased when I was literally defending you by saying you weren't biased in favor of Terran in this thread. You ought to read my post before calling me a shit poster and asking mods to ban me.
Unless you weren't responding to me, but the guy who said you wanted to buff Terran, in which case totally, I agree that guy misrepresented you. But if you're attacking me, well, that just doesn't make sense.
|
On November 21 2015 17:54 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 17:08 avilo wrote:On November 21 2015 13:37 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 11:15 Cascade wrote:On November 21 2015 08:43 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 08:36 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 07:45 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 07:21 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 06:59 avilo wrote:
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences. TL;DR Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Buff Terran! I don't agree with avilo's suggestions, but at least don't misrepresent him. What buff did he ask for? The cyclone buff? Because he also asked for liberators and reapers to be nerfed, so ya know, "Buff Terran" is a kinda bullshit TL;DR. It's not "bullshit" as you call it. Reaper should get sth better than thier grenades and cyclones should be cheaper or have better stats. That's more buffs than nerfs no? And nerfing Toss and ZErg the way he wants it is Teran buff enough even without the direct ones. But thanks for calling it bullshit! You are a very clever person. He leads with "remove the reaper grenade, it's bullshit early game" and then suggests that maybe somehow a lategame ability could make them relevant. The latter is a highly hypothetical buff he wants some day, the former is a very concrete and obvious nerf he wants now. Yes, he asks for some kind of cost reduction on cyclones, but I don't think anyone would say cyclones are OP right now (if anything, most complaints are that they're useless and have no place in their current iteration). Meanwhile he asks for liberator nerfs, which would really clearly hurt Terran a lot more than dropping cyclones to 150/100 or something would help. If you had said you disagree with the Terran buffs that he does suggest, that'd be fine. If you'd summarized as "Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Nerf Terran slightly, and buff them again!" that would be less objectionable. But no plausible reading of his post suggests that he wants an overall buff to Terran. You're basing that entirely on his reputation. You have to agree that the "I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased" from avilo was pretty funny though. Everyone and their dog knows that avilo loves his mech over everything else. Which is perfectly fine, I don't mind mech and people are allowed to like whatever playstyle they like (except cannon rush). I have my own personal preference for melee zerg for example (so if I claim that the the armour 8 ultra "is fine", take it with a grain of salt). But when you have this strong preference not only for a race, but for a playstyle, you have to admit to yourself that anything coming out of you will be heavily biased. I'm happy with avilo joining the debate, he likely knows a lot of subtle details about mech. However, expertise doesn't exclude bias. On a different note, are there any early stats on win rates for different races in lotv? From ladder or smaller tournaments? By map would be cool in the light of this OP, but I assume there are too few games already, even if you sum over maps. Oh sure. Not only do I disagree with many of avilo's suggestions, I would also acknowledge that his suggestions often reflect a pro-Terran bias. I just think it's shitty when people immediately scoff and start acting like assholes just because they know who avilo is and like to feel superior. I mean honestly, if you had to make a list of the top 9 elements of LotV gameplay that Blizzard should be keeping their eye on, it would probably look something like ultralisk, parasitic bomb, carrier, liberator, reaper, pylon overcharge, nydus worm, reaper mines, ravagers, and cyclones. People might disagree on the urgency of addressing any one of those units, but that's a pretty reasonable list of potentially problematic items. Compare to DinoMight's list in his most recent blog. DinoMight's opinions are, in several cases, much less unanimous in the community, and much more Protoss-favored. How the fuck are any of my suggestions a pro Terran bias when i'm literally asking for Terran units to be nerfed ROFL. I think TL needs to get some mods up in this thread and clean out the trash posting from people not even reading content of posts and are trying to de-rail discussion like that other guy as well that didn't read any post in the thread, quoted my post, and then put "TL DR buff Terran." Seriously? Shit post on some other site, not Teamliquid.net. That would be rather ironic for me to get banned for calling you biased when I was literally defending you by saying you weren't biased in favor of Terran in this thread. You ought to read my post before calling me a shit poster and asking mods to ban me. Unless you weren't responding to me, but the guy who said you wanted to buff Terran, in which case totally, I agree that guy misrepresented you. But if you're attacking me, well, that just doesn't make sense.
Nono, i meant a few people earlier in this thread that don't contribute at all and shit post with "tldr"
On topic, blizzard needs to hotfix nydus worms imo and pylon cannon.
|
Those are your top two? You listed nine things that need addressing, but a few of them seemed like reasonable things to watch out for, but probably not urgent issues (e.g. cyclone tweaks, carrier). If you had to rank those nine things again in order of urgency, what would the order be?
|
awesome to see that most people want to keep shit the same for now. ffs be patient
|
On November 22 2015 07:55 ChristianS wrote:
Those are your top two? You listed nine things that need addressing, but a few of them seemed like reasonable things to watch out for, but probably not urgent issues (e.g. cyclone tweaks, carrier). If you had to rank those nine things again in order of urgency, what would the order be?
Top 3 things:
1. Nydus worm revert asap. Needs hotfix, it is almost bug/hack levels of abuse that this is in the game. It feels really wrong to have an untargetable building spawn in your base, and then become invincible through transfuse.
2. Pylon cannon. This is going to tilt PvZ/PvT and not allow blizzard to tune real problems because this thing dictates the entire game for Protoss since it is that abusive/powerful. Needs a fix immediately b4 any tournament happens otherwise the state of P balance can never be determined at all (whether that's good or bad).
3. Ravagers. Too strong, just like it was at the start of LOTV beta. Comes too early in the game. Reminds me very much of pre-nerf liberators that had long range and could be parked behind mineral lines early in the game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
