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Revert marauder nerf anyone? I never understood that nerf, did anyone really think marauders were OP?
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I don't think Blizzard ever gave an official statement as to why they nerfed Marauders.
If I had to take a guess, it's because Marauders were too strong against every ground unit in the game for their cost, and LotV Beta was their chance to change that. Marauders got a lot of flack during WoL for this.
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That's sort of strange considering that marauder-heavy compositions haven't been that common since, well, WoL. I mean yeah everyone thought they were bullshit in WoL beta, but that was WoL beta. Hell, Davies even used them as an example of a unit people thought was broken but wasn't when he was suggesting the adept might not be as OP as everyone thought it was. So why nerf it?
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On November 21 2015 13:37 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 11:15 Cascade wrote:On November 21 2015 08:43 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 08:36 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 07:45 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 07:21 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 06:59 avilo wrote:
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences. TL;DR Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Buff Terran! I don't agree with avilo's suggestions, but at least don't misrepresent him. What buff did he ask for? The cyclone buff? Because he also asked for liberators and reapers to be nerfed, so ya know, "Buff Terran" is a kinda bullshit TL;DR. It's not "bullshit" as you call it. Reaper should get sth better than thier grenades and cyclones should be cheaper or have better stats. That's more buffs than nerfs no? And nerfing Toss and ZErg the way he wants it is Teran buff enough even without the direct ones. But thanks for calling it bullshit! You are a very clever person. He leads with "remove the reaper grenade, it's bullshit early game" and then suggests that maybe somehow a lategame ability could make them relevant. The latter is a highly hypothetical buff he wants some day, the former is a very concrete and obvious nerf he wants now. Yes, he asks for some kind of cost reduction on cyclones, but I don't think anyone would say cyclones are OP right now (if anything, most complaints are that they're useless and have no place in their current iteration). Meanwhile he asks for liberator nerfs, which would really clearly hurt Terran a lot more than dropping cyclones to 150/100 or something would help. If you had said you disagree with the Terran buffs that he does suggest, that'd be fine. If you'd summarized as "Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Nerf Terran slightly, and buff them again!" that would be less objectionable. But no plausible reading of his post suggests that he wants an overall buff to Terran. You're basing that entirely on his reputation. You have to agree that the "I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased" from avilo was pretty funny though.  Everyone and their dog knows that avilo loves his mech over everything else. Which is perfectly fine, I don't mind mech and people are allowed to like whatever playstyle they like (except cannon rush). I have my own personal preference for melee zerg for example (so if I claim that the the armour 8 ultra "is fine", take it with a grain of salt). But when you have this strong preference not only for a race, but for a playstyle, you have to admit to yourself that anything coming out of you will be heavily biased. I'm happy with avilo joining the debate, he likely knows a lot of subtle details about mech. However, expertise doesn't exclude bias. On a different note, are there any early stats on win rates for different races in lotv? From ladder or smaller tournaments? By map would be cool in the light of this OP, but I assume there are too few games already, even if you sum over maps. Oh sure. Not only do I disagree with many of avilo's suggestions, I would also acknowledge that his suggestions often reflect a pro-Terran bias. I just think it's shitty when people immediately scoff and start acting like assholes just because they know who avilo is and like to feel superior. I mean honestly, if you had to make a list of the top 9 elements of LotV gameplay that Blizzard should be keeping their eye on, it would probably look something like ultralisk, parasitic bomb, carrier, liberator, reaper, pylon overcharge, nydus worm, reaper mines, ravagers, and cyclones. People might disagree on the urgency of addressing any one of those units, but that's a pretty reasonable list of potentially problematic items. Compare to DinoMight's list in his most recent blog. DinoMight's opinions are, in several cases, much less unanimous in the community, and much more Protoss-favored.
How the fuck are any of my suggestions a pro Terran bias when i'm literally asking for Terran units to be nerfed ROFL.
I think TL needs to get some mods up in this thread and clean out the trash posting from people not even reading content of posts and are trying to de-rail discussion like that other guy as well that didn't read any post in the thread, quoted my post, and then put "TL DR buff Terran."
Seriously? Shit post on some other site, not Teamliquid.net.
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1. Blizzard balances for rank master - bronze through internal stats
2. Blizzard balances top level play through observing tournaments.
so what makes people think they have enough info of either at this point to act on it?
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Russian Federation66 Posts
One the greatest issues with sc2 since wol grow to hots and pump to lotv is: unit/tech utility:
Liberator is extremely utility unit - counter both air and ground, fast, good cost efficient and only production/tech required is just starport. So eazy to get, pretty good in most of scenarios. Easier to countorl it rather than control vs it. Also, it's a counter to ultras/mutas and core unit vs toss.
same for Queens - only pool required, but no larva to morph. 150 mineral 175hp and 1 armor (not "armored") 5 range unit with 7 aa range, heal and creep spawn ability and the most imortant ability to double production power of hatch (+100% is 3 larva/45 sec). So creep+production+antiair+175hp 1 armor tanky range fighter.
Same for medivacs/prism/msc/orbitalcommand(mules) and warp tech - they are ez to get and so usefull in lots of scenarios.
There is No decision to get them. If u can - u'll get them asap.
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On November 21 2015 17:08 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 13:37 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 11:15 Cascade wrote:On November 21 2015 08:43 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 08:36 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 07:45 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 07:21 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 06:59 avilo wrote:
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences. TL;DR Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Buff Terran! I don't agree with avilo's suggestions, but at least don't misrepresent him. What buff did he ask for? The cyclone buff? Because he also asked for liberators and reapers to be nerfed, so ya know, "Buff Terran" is a kinda bullshit TL;DR. It's not "bullshit" as you call it. Reaper should get sth better than thier grenades and cyclones should be cheaper or have better stats. That's more buffs than nerfs no? And nerfing Toss and ZErg the way he wants it is Teran buff enough even without the direct ones. But thanks for calling it bullshit! You are a very clever person. He leads with "remove the reaper grenade, it's bullshit early game" and then suggests that maybe somehow a lategame ability could make them relevant. The latter is a highly hypothetical buff he wants some day, the former is a very concrete and obvious nerf he wants now. Yes, he asks for some kind of cost reduction on cyclones, but I don't think anyone would say cyclones are OP right now (if anything, most complaints are that they're useless and have no place in their current iteration). Meanwhile he asks for liberator nerfs, which would really clearly hurt Terran a lot more than dropping cyclones to 150/100 or something would help. If you had said you disagree with the Terran buffs that he does suggest, that'd be fine. If you'd summarized as "Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Nerf Terran slightly, and buff them again!" that would be less objectionable. But no plausible reading of his post suggests that he wants an overall buff to Terran. You're basing that entirely on his reputation. You have to agree that the "I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased" from avilo was pretty funny though. Everyone and their dog knows that avilo loves his mech over everything else. Which is perfectly fine, I don't mind mech and people are allowed to like whatever playstyle they like (except cannon rush). I have my own personal preference for melee zerg for example (so if I claim that the the armour 8 ultra "is fine", take it with a grain of salt). But when you have this strong preference not only for a race, but for a playstyle, you have to admit to yourself that anything coming out of you will be heavily biased. I'm happy with avilo joining the debate, he likely knows a lot of subtle details about mech. However, expertise doesn't exclude bias. On a different note, are there any early stats on win rates for different races in lotv? From ladder or smaller tournaments? By map would be cool in the light of this OP, but I assume there are too few games already, even if you sum over maps. Oh sure. Not only do I disagree with many of avilo's suggestions, I would also acknowledge that his suggestions often reflect a pro-Terran bias. I just think it's shitty when people immediately scoff and start acting like assholes just because they know who avilo is and like to feel superior. I mean honestly, if you had to make a list of the top 9 elements of LotV gameplay that Blizzard should be keeping their eye on, it would probably look something like ultralisk, parasitic bomb, carrier, liberator, reaper, pylon overcharge, nydus worm, reaper mines, ravagers, and cyclones. People might disagree on the urgency of addressing any one of those units, but that's a pretty reasonable list of potentially problematic items. Compare to DinoMight's list in his most recent blog. DinoMight's opinions are, in several cases, much less unanimous in the community, and much more Protoss-favored. How the fuck are any of my suggestions a pro Terran bias when i'm literally asking for Terran units to be nerfed ROFL. I think TL needs to get some mods up in this thread and clean out the trash posting from people not even reading content of posts and are trying to de-rail discussion like that other guy as well that didn't read any post in the thread, quoted my post, and then put "TL DR buff Terran." Seriously? Shit post on some other site, not Teamliquid.net.
That would be rather ironic for me to get banned for calling you biased when I was literally defending you by saying you weren't biased in favor of Terran in this thread. You ought to read my post before calling me a shit poster and asking mods to ban me.
Unless you weren't responding to me, but the guy who said you wanted to buff Terran, in which case totally, I agree that guy misrepresented you. But if you're attacking me, well, that just doesn't make sense.
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On November 21 2015 17:54 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 17:08 avilo wrote:On November 21 2015 13:37 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 11:15 Cascade wrote:On November 21 2015 08:43 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 08:36 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 07:45 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 07:21 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 06:59 avilo wrote:
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences. TL;DR Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Buff Terran! I don't agree with avilo's suggestions, but at least don't misrepresent him. What buff did he ask for? The cyclone buff? Because he also asked for liberators and reapers to be nerfed, so ya know, "Buff Terran" is a kinda bullshit TL;DR. It's not "bullshit" as you call it. Reaper should get sth better than thier grenades and cyclones should be cheaper or have better stats. That's more buffs than nerfs no? And nerfing Toss and ZErg the way he wants it is Teran buff enough even without the direct ones. But thanks for calling it bullshit! You are a very clever person. He leads with "remove the reaper grenade, it's bullshit early game" and then suggests that maybe somehow a lategame ability could make them relevant. The latter is a highly hypothetical buff he wants some day, the former is a very concrete and obvious nerf he wants now. Yes, he asks for some kind of cost reduction on cyclones, but I don't think anyone would say cyclones are OP right now (if anything, most complaints are that they're useless and have no place in their current iteration). Meanwhile he asks for liberator nerfs, which would really clearly hurt Terran a lot more than dropping cyclones to 150/100 or something would help. If you had said you disagree with the Terran buffs that he does suggest, that'd be fine. If you'd summarized as "Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Nerf Terran slightly, and buff them again!" that would be less objectionable. But no plausible reading of his post suggests that he wants an overall buff to Terran. You're basing that entirely on his reputation. You have to agree that the "I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased" from avilo was pretty funny though. Everyone and their dog knows that avilo loves his mech over everything else. Which is perfectly fine, I don't mind mech and people are allowed to like whatever playstyle they like (except cannon rush). I have my own personal preference for melee zerg for example (so if I claim that the the armour 8 ultra "is fine", take it with a grain of salt). But when you have this strong preference not only for a race, but for a playstyle, you have to admit to yourself that anything coming out of you will be heavily biased. I'm happy with avilo joining the debate, he likely knows a lot of subtle details about mech. However, expertise doesn't exclude bias. On a different note, are there any early stats on win rates for different races in lotv? From ladder or smaller tournaments? By map would be cool in the light of this OP, but I assume there are too few games already, even if you sum over maps. Oh sure. Not only do I disagree with many of avilo's suggestions, I would also acknowledge that his suggestions often reflect a pro-Terran bias. I just think it's shitty when people immediately scoff and start acting like assholes just because they know who avilo is and like to feel superior. I mean honestly, if you had to make a list of the top 9 elements of LotV gameplay that Blizzard should be keeping their eye on, it would probably look something like ultralisk, parasitic bomb, carrier, liberator, reaper, pylon overcharge, nydus worm, reaper mines, ravagers, and cyclones. People might disagree on the urgency of addressing any one of those units, but that's a pretty reasonable list of potentially problematic items. Compare to DinoMight's list in his most recent blog. DinoMight's opinions are, in several cases, much less unanimous in the community, and much more Protoss-favored. How the fuck are any of my suggestions a pro Terran bias when i'm literally asking for Terran units to be nerfed ROFL. I think TL needs to get some mods up in this thread and clean out the trash posting from people not even reading content of posts and are trying to de-rail discussion like that other guy as well that didn't read any post in the thread, quoted my post, and then put "TL DR buff Terran." Seriously? Shit post on some other site, not Teamliquid.net. That would be rather ironic for me to get banned for calling you biased when I was literally defending you by saying you weren't biased in favor of Terran in this thread. You ought to read my post before calling me a shit poster and asking mods to ban me. Unless you weren't responding to me, but the guy who said you wanted to buff Terran, in which case totally, I agree that guy misrepresented you. But if you're attacking me, well, that just doesn't make sense.
Nono, i meant a few people earlier in this thread that don't contribute at all and shit post with "tldr"
On topic, blizzard needs to hotfix nydus worms imo and pylon cannon.
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Those are your top two? You listed nine things that need addressing, but a few of them seemed like reasonable things to watch out for, but probably not urgent issues (e.g. cyclone tweaks, carrier). If you had to rank those nine things again in order of urgency, what would the order be?
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awesome to see that most people want to keep shit the same for now. ffs be patient
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On November 22 2015 07:55 ChristianS wrote:
Those are your top two? You listed nine things that need addressing, but a few of them seemed like reasonable things to watch out for, but probably not urgent issues (e.g. cyclone tweaks, carrier). If you had to rank those nine things again in order of urgency, what would the order be?
Top 3 things:
1. Nydus worm revert asap. Needs hotfix, it is almost bug/hack levels of abuse that this is in the game. It feels really wrong to have an untargetable building spawn in your base, and then become invincible through transfuse.
2. Pylon cannon. This is going to tilt PvZ/PvT and not allow blizzard to tune real problems because this thing dictates the entire game for Protoss since it is that abusive/powerful. Needs a fix immediately b4 any tournament happens otherwise the state of P balance can never be determined at all (whether that's good or bad).
3. Ravagers. Too strong, just like it was at the start of LOTV beta. Comes too early in the game. Reminds me very much of pre-nerf liberators that had long range and could be parked behind mineral lines early in the game.
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EPT
