|
Haha, the same threads always come out right after release, the only thing that's different is the race/units. WOL was "omg Protoss deathballs" and HOTS was "Omg Terran hellbats and mines" and now the cycle is complete with "well Zerg is OP now so nerfs plz".
As a Zerg player I admit Ravagers do feel kinda quick and kind of overwhelming even in our mirror so an ever so slight gentle nerf might be appropriate and the new Nydus worm is really terrible design.
But beyond that, let the Koreans develop the meta for the next few months before any more balance decisions are made, alot of things got changed/added and we all damn well know that every race is going to go through a swing of being overpowered and underpowered so theres no point in gimping any races units over kneejerk reactions from angry ladder people.
|
On November 20 2015 11:06 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 09:59 ZAiNs wrote:
It's not like the results of a tournament with 4 Koreans matter very much any ways. When Proleague starts and/or we get Kespa Cup in December then the results will be meaningful. You don't think a tournament with 50.000$ on the line matter?
No. The money is significant but the results aren't. Blizzard has done what they could with inferior players testing. The rest will have to wait for when Proleague starts. Yeah, the results next year are going to be shitty because the game won't be close to being balanced for months but what can anybody realistically do?
|
No way! I love these first tournaments, before the balance patches and better maps appear.
|
On November 21 2015 02:35 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The only thing I see it really needs a fix is parasitic bomb. The rest...please give some months to the pro player explore all options!
This except for changing parasitic bomb 
Really, wait 3 months before patching. E.g. I always die to Liberators but I think they shouldn't even change those until time tells they're indeed too strong. It takes time to learn a new game.
|
16 second pylon warp ins....
Like how about you just get rid of warp gate then Blizzard?
|
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences.
|
On November 21 2015 06:59 avilo wrote:
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences.
TL;DR Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Buff Terran!
|
No other way then to wait for the big korean leagues next year. Foreign scene isnt able to judge due to the low amount of decent players.
|
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
also probably the wrong thread if you want blizzard to read it.
|
Zerg profits the most from the new mineralsystem because their hatcheries are bases and production facilities at the same time so Zerg gets more army.
Also Zerg received huge buffs at ground with lurkers and ultralisks and in the air with parasitic bomb.
Zerg seems to be the strongest race at the moment.
|
On November 21 2015 07:21 Leviance wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 06:59 avilo wrote:
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences. TL;DR Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Buff Terran!
I don't agree with avilo's suggestions, but at least don't misrepresent him. What buff did he ask for? The cyclone buff? Because he also asked for liberators and reapers to be nerfed, so ya know, "Buff Terran" is a kinda bullshit TL;DR.
|
On November 21 2015 07:45 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 07:21 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 06:59 avilo wrote:
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences. TL;DR Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Buff Terran! I don't agree with avilo's suggestions, but at least don't misrepresent him. What buff did he ask for? The cyclone buff? Because he also asked for liberators and reapers to be nerfed, so ya know, "Buff Terran" is a kinda bullshit TL;DR.
It's not "bullshit" as you call it. Reaper should get sth better than thier grenades and cyclones should be cheaper or have better stats. That's more buffs than nerfs no? And nerfing Toss and ZErg the way he wants it is Teran buff enough even without the direct ones. But thanks for calling it bullshit! You are a very clever person.
|
On November 21 2015 08:36 Leviance wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 07:45 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 07:21 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 06:59 avilo wrote:
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences. TL;DR Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Buff Terran! I don't agree with avilo's suggestions, but at least don't misrepresent him. What buff did he ask for? The cyclone buff? Because he also asked for liberators and reapers to be nerfed, so ya know, "Buff Terran" is a kinda bullshit TL;DR. It's not "bullshit" as you call it. Reaper should get sth better than thier grenades and cyclones should be cheaper or have better stats. That's more buffs than nerfs no? And nerfing Toss and ZErg the way he wants it is Teran buff enough even without the direct ones. But thanks for calling it bullshit! You are a very clever person.
He leads with "remove the reaper grenade, it's bullshit early game" and then suggests that maybe somehow a lategame ability could make them relevant. The latter is a highly hypothetical buff he wants some day, the former is a very concrete and obvious nerf he wants now.
Yes, he asks for some kind of cost reduction on cyclones, but I don't think anyone would say cyclones are OP right now (if anything, most complaints are that they're useless and have no place in their current iteration). Meanwhile he asks for liberator nerfs, which would really clearly hurt Terran a lot more than dropping cyclones to 150/100 or something would help.
If you had said you disagree with the Terran buffs that he does suggest, that'd be fine. If you'd summarized as "Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Nerf Terran slightly, and buff them again!" that would be less objectionable. But no plausible reading of his post suggests that he wants an overall buff to Terran. You're basing that entirely on his reputation.
|
Central Prodigal is terrible, Lerilak is vetoed by everyone so I never play on it, and the double golds and short rush distance on prion favors zerg too much
|
I think the absolute mirroredness of the maps is kind of silly;
But this causes 'imbalance'? Having to adjust fits right in with the rest of
the game and gamestyle lol.
|
On November 21 2015 08:43 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 08:36 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 07:45 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 07:21 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 06:59 avilo wrote:
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences. TL;DR Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Buff Terran! I don't agree with avilo's suggestions, but at least don't misrepresent him. What buff did he ask for? The cyclone buff? Because he also asked for liberators and reapers to be nerfed, so ya know, "Buff Terran" is a kinda bullshit TL;DR. It's not "bullshit" as you call it. Reaper should get sth better than thier grenades and cyclones should be cheaper or have better stats. That's more buffs than nerfs no? And nerfing Toss and ZErg the way he wants it is Teran buff enough even without the direct ones. But thanks for calling it bullshit! You are a very clever person. He leads with "remove the reaper grenade, it's bullshit early game" and then suggests that maybe somehow a lategame ability could make them relevant. The latter is a highly hypothetical buff he wants some day, the former is a very concrete and obvious nerf he wants now. Yes, he asks for some kind of cost reduction on cyclones, but I don't think anyone would say cyclones are OP right now (if anything, most complaints are that they're useless and have no place in their current iteration). Meanwhile he asks for liberator nerfs, which would really clearly hurt Terran a lot more than dropping cyclones to 150/100 or something would help. If you had said you disagree with the Terran buffs that he does suggest, that'd be fine. If you'd summarized as "Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Nerf Terran slightly, and buff them again!" that would be less objectionable. But no plausible reading of his post suggests that he wants an overall buff to Terran. You're basing that entirely on his reputation.
You have to agree that the "I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased" from avilo was pretty funny though. 
Everyone and their dog knows that avilo loves his mech over everything else. Which is perfectly fine, I don't mind mech and people are allowed to like whatever playstyle they like (except cannon rush). I have my own personal preference for melee zerg for example (so if I claim that the the armour 8 ultra "is fine", take it with a grain of salt). But when you have this strong preference not only for a race, but for a playstyle, you have to admit to yourself that anything coming out of you will be heavily biased.
I'm happy with avilo joining the debate, he likely knows a lot of subtle details about mech. However, expertise doesn't exclude bias.
On a different note, are there any early stats on win rates for different races in lotv? From ladder or smaller tournaments? By map would be cool in the light of this OP, but I assume there are too few games already, even if you sum over maps.
|
On November 21 2015 11:15 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 08:43 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 08:36 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 07:45 ChristianS wrote:On November 21 2015 07:21 Leviance wrote:On November 21 2015 06:59 avilo wrote:
Yes, here is a list of things that need tweaked b4 any tournament, and i bet a lot of people will agree:
1. 8 armor ultra removed -> this upgrade makes no sense on a 1A unit that requires no attention turning it into god mode
2. Parasitic bomb -> changed/number tweak. Too strong
3. Carrier -> too strong, needs a number tweak again somewhere don't know where
4. Liberator??? Troublesome to say because without this unit Terran is unplayable currently due to many of the other issues that are listed/will be listed here. Notice i mentioned the air units of all 3 races are way too strong...i believe LOTV gameplay will trend, if it hasn't already (it has), to whichever player begins massing their OP air unit.
For Zerg that's vipers, Terran it's liberators, Protoss it's carriers/tempests. All of these need toning down massively, and cyclones/hydras need to be toned up a bit in my opinion. I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased...but i also feel like blizzard or people advising blizzard will read what i listed as "NERF TERRAN NERF LIBERATORS" while leaving Z/P air units OP...because this is how they balance the game whenever any progamer/personality Terran mentions one of their own units is too strong. They nerf the T unit into uselessness (COUGH RAVENS) while leaving Z/P exactly the same...(or even worse, they gut ravens and buff broodlord range to 11! yippie! balance!)
5. Cyclone price change + stat tweak. This unit is in no way cost effective in the current game. If you have the choice between building a cyclone/tank/liberator/banshee...you 100% will always choose not cyclones. Cyclones are the most poorly balanced unit at the moment in LOTV. They are too expensive to attack with, they are 3 supply each, and they feel like the "reaper" of mech to me - you build 1-2 of them and then never build them again or you will lose because you build them because of how cost inefficient they are.
6. NYDUS WORM* - this is important. Put this back to Heart of the Swarm immediately. This is one of the worst things in LOTV currently because it's a pure build order win that's unstoppable if the Zerg hotkeys his queens before he loads them into the nydus worm. This needs to go 100%. I believe people even abuse this in ZvZ now as well.
7. Reaper mine -> this needs to be removed. It's a gimmick. And it's only used in reaper all-ins/gimmick openers and then you never build reapers again for the entire game because reapers suck. I wish this was replaced with an ability that actually persuaded Terrans to build them later on in the game, like an explosive mine to plant on buildings to do massive damage. Right now, i see casters circlejerking this ability in casts but it's honestly one of the most useless things in the game EXCEPT in the first 2-3 minutes of a game where you all-in with it or do a gimmick reaper/hellion opener. As a Terran...remove this, replace it with something else...anything @_@
8. Ravagers - put them to tier 2 aka lair tech or make the roach warren have to transform at a 100/100 cost or something anything. This unit is currently reaching broken status to how it was when LOTV Beta was first announced. You can build these in 100% situations and counter any army comp in the game and get a huge "power spike" to your army too early in the game.
9. PYLON CANNON - HOLY FUCK. This needs a hotfix as well. 50 energy or 75 energy. Allowing Protoss to essentially have free photon cannons for 25 energy is really screwing up TvP / ZvP balance a hell of a lot.
The above are the main perpetrators of "imbalance" that i can visibly see and comment on from my own experiences. TL;DR Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Buff Terran! I don't agree with avilo's suggestions, but at least don't misrepresent him. What buff did he ask for? The cyclone buff? Because he also asked for liberators and reapers to be nerfed, so ya know, "Buff Terran" is a kinda bullshit TL;DR. It's not "bullshit" as you call it. Reaper should get sth better than thier grenades and cyclones should be cheaper or have better stats. That's more buffs than nerfs no? And nerfing Toss and ZErg the way he wants it is Teran buff enough even without the direct ones. But thanks for calling it bullshit! You are a very clever person. He leads with "remove the reaper grenade, it's bullshit early game" and then suggests that maybe somehow a lategame ability could make them relevant. The latter is a highly hypothetical buff he wants some day, the former is a very concrete and obvious nerf he wants now. Yes, he asks for some kind of cost reduction on cyclones, but I don't think anyone would say cyclones are OP right now (if anything, most complaints are that they're useless and have no place in their current iteration). Meanwhile he asks for liberator nerfs, which would really clearly hurt Terran a lot more than dropping cyclones to 150/100 or something would help. If you had said you disagree with the Terran buffs that he does suggest, that'd be fine. If you'd summarized as "Nerf Toss! Nerf Zerg! Nerf Terran slightly, and buff them again!" that would be less objectionable. But no plausible reading of his post suggests that he wants an overall buff to Terran. You're basing that entirely on his reputation. You have to agree that the "I feel like my opinion here is pretty unbiased" from avilo was pretty funny though. Everyone and their dog knows that avilo loves his mech over everything else. Which is perfectly fine, I don't mind mech and people are allowed to like whatever playstyle they like (except cannon rush). I have my own personal preference for melee zerg for example (so if I claim that the the armour 8 ultra "is fine", take it with a grain of salt). But when you have this strong preference not only for a race, but for a playstyle, you have to admit to yourself that anything coming out of you will be heavily biased. I'm happy with avilo joining the debate, he likely knows a lot of subtle details about mech. However, expertise doesn't exclude bias. On a different note, are there any early stats on win rates for different races in lotv? From ladder or smaller tournaments? By map would be cool in the light of this OP, but I assume there are too few games already, even if you sum over maps.
Oh sure. Not only do I disagree with many of avilo's suggestions, I would also acknowledge that his suggestions often reflect a pro-Terran bias. I just think it's shitty when people immediately scoff and start acting like assholes just because they know who avilo is and like to feel superior. I mean honestly, if you had to make a list of the top 9 elements of LotV gameplay that Blizzard should be keeping their eye on, it would probably look something like ultralisk, parasitic bomb, carrier, liberator, reaper, pylon overcharge, nydus worm, reaper mines, ravagers, and cyclones. People might disagree on the urgency of addressing any one of those units, but that's a pretty reasonable list of potentially problematic items. Compare to DinoMight's list in his most recent blog. DinoMight's opinions are, in several cases, much less unanimous in the community, and much more Protoss-favored.
|
I really hope they DONT nerf the new ultra. Finally a T3 Zerg unit to be feared. Ultras SHOULD own bio... they are a huge, godzilla-sized armored unit. Puny marines should only tickle them. Terrans, bring out the heavy artillery!
In general, I'm hoping Blizz doesn't do any 'knee-jerk' nerfs and give people some time to figure things out. The only changes they should be making before the end of the year are bug fixes and if something REALLY abusive comes out (like HOTS hellbats).
|
On November 21 2015 13:41 ElMeanYo wrote:
I really hope they DONT nerf the new ultra. Finally a T3 Zerg unit to be feared. Ultras SHOULD own bio... they are a huge, godzilla-sized armored unit. Puny marines should only tickle them. Terrans, bring out the heavy artillery!
In general, I'm hoping Blizz doesn't do any 'knee-jerk' nerfs and give people some time to figure things out. The only changes they should be making before the end of the year are bug fixes and if something REALLY abusive comes out (like HOTS hellbats).
I mean marines didn't do much to them in HotS. What concerns me more is that marauders do so little, given that marauders' whole job is to kill armored targets. I mean ultralisks were really scary in HotS TvZ (or even WoL, for that matter), but what was nice was that if you were smart, you could prepare by getting a lot of tech lab barracks. I don't really know what to prepare with now – tanks and thors aren't actually very good against ultras. All I can think of is getting a lot of liberators to discourage them from going ultra in the first place.
Edit: that said, I agree that they should wait to change anything. Lowering ultralisk armor might be necessary some day, but it would be premature now.
|
If they ever nerf Ultralisks it should just be -1 Armor and nothing else. I do feel the ease of using Ultralisks versus the difficulty of what you have to do against it is pretty lop-sided, but the counterplay should be demanded.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
