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Blizzard why do you want it make so hard to scout ravagers coming?
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nQZQ7sl.png)
The problem with Ravagers is not necessarily ravagers but that it forces out a response which leaves them vulnerable to other styles. Zerg has multiple openers and the gas timings are identical for several builds. For example a nydus allin, roach burrow, or roach heavy upgrades has similar gas timings as that of a ling ravager push. That being said often the pushes come and the opponent has no idea its going to be that until eggs pop and the units are pushing across the map. So when you see that gases you always prepare for ravagers and are often beaten in other ways. At Dreamhack, the killer often was not the ravagers, but the other builds which countered the response Terran players were doing for the ravagers. Blizzard is suggesting that ravagers and lurkers take longer to morph, but this still doesn't allow any premptive scouting. So the suggestion is to allow for scouting of ravagers by allowing players to morph a ravager den.
Edit:This idea was originally seen in comments on TL by starslayer and I didn't find it for the original post to properly give credit.
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PvZ Ravagers are not much of an issue, pylon overcharge makes sure of that. TvZ they're an issue if you want to open fast CC, mainly if you follow up with 2 or more barracks. Otherwise not a big problem there either.
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i'm a zerg player and i think this is fine and makes sense
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I think this is a good idea.
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This totally makes sense actually.
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I'm all for it as long as they don't call it ravager den
zerg has too many dens already
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Suggestion: Adept Den and Sentry Den to allow for scouting in TvP and ZvP. Reasoning: Protoss has been winning a lot with low tier gateway timings throughout all of SC2, this would allow people to know which Gateway units to prepare against.
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Ive been suggesting this in threads for a while hope they do it.
Edit I have been suggesting this idea not because of scout, but because making zerg need to make a "ravager den" will (in theory) delay ravagers enough for the other races to get enough units to deal with the silly pushes zerg can do atm.
scout isnt the problem to me its how fast they hit.
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On December 12 2015 08:44 Big J wrote:
Suggestion: Adept Den and Sentry Den to allow for scouting in TvP and ZvP. Reasoning: Protoss has been winning a lot with low tier gateway timings throughout all of SC2, this would allow people to know which Gateway units to prepare against.
DEAL! Let's do this 
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Oh, roaches....OH MY GOD RAVAGER WHERE DO THEY COME FROM!? Are you serious?
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Umm... There is a lot of similar situations like not knowing if Protoss is making Oracles or Pheonix, or with some certain situations with Terran and there production.
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No. My arguments are simple.
a) Ravagers need a ton of gas, 100 each. That is four times (4) more gas than a roach. Learn how to scout for gas count (pro tip: many early gasses and late lair tech = alert). If you don't know how to do that, then that is your problem not Blizzards.
b) Just fucking play safer.
ps. If you don't agree, then pls submit a picture of the sentry den, the marauder den, oracle den and the hellbat den - so that zergs can scout for these units also. Thx
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On December 12 2015 09:55 LoveTool wrote:
No. My arguments are simple.
a) Ravagers need a ton of gas, 100 each. That is four times (4) more gas than a roach. Learn how to scout for gas count (pro tip: many early gasses and late lair tech = alert). If you don't know how to do that, then that is your problem not Blizzards.
b) Just fucking play safer.
Those are two excellent arguments for why Twilight Council should unlock DTs.
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On December 12 2015 09:19 GGzerG wrote:
Umm... There is a lot of similar situations like not knowing if Protoss is making Oracles or Pheonix, or with some certain situations with Terran and there production.
Again I want to emphasize the main point. Ravagers force out a response so the players are dying to other things. I'm not really thinking its the same because of the larvae mechanic and you are rewarded by finding the the starport, but not rewarded for scouting the lair/roach warren. I feel like you can do a similar response to oracles (5 queens 2 spores) and phoenix where you cannot do the same response for double upgrades or a spire, or a burrow roach timing off a third. For the amount of response required and the style it forces you to play, and you can lose in other ways.
As an example, one option would be hyperflight banshees as an opener against ravagers, but if you go banshees and they are faking towards mutas you scan the main and are denied scouting into the natural and mutas come out. The only commitment they did to it was 3 roaches and a roach warren, which is about one less muta so you get 9 at your base instead of 10 which can still be significant damage and shut down banshees allowing unrecoverable creep spread and map control.
My post history has mostly been about tournaments statistics and changes in the meta and I prefer mostly to stay away from game adjusting ideas. I know people always tend to shoot down statistics even before they become standard as has happened to nearly every one of my posts so I kind of expected this, but it is true. In the small sample size i have, Terran in general is losing a lot to zerg before getting up to 22 up grades and a lot of its comes from preparing for one build and being crushed by another even after scanning the opponent. Now the statistics are saying Terran is doing fairly well in the mid-late game and late game. Being less constrained from good scouting while playing against zerg deserves at least a try.
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Not sure if there's much point behind this. If you scout roaches or a roach warren its almost a guarantee that ravagers are coming.
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United Kingdom20284 Posts
On December 12 2015 08:53 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 08:44 Big J wrote:
Suggestion: Adept Den and Sentry Den to allow for scouting in TvP and ZvP. Reasoning: Protoss has been winning a lot with low tier gateway timings throughout all of SC2, this would allow people to know which Gateway units to prepare against. DEAL! Let's do this
It's already in the game. It's one building called a Cybernetics Core! It's just built immediately every game because the options needed to live are gated behind it (if you look at zerg for example, queen is on the spawning pool while msc is on the higher tech building)
Umm... There is a lot of similar situations like not knowing if Protoss is making Oracles or Pheonix
If you gain vision of the stargate then you can see which unit is in production, that's often used especially on the first 2 units and to help keep track of later game army composition
the marauder den and the hellbat den
Tech lab rax and reactor factory. You often have advanced warning and short term knowledge of what the terran can actually build at the times where limited production facilities matter most
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It's a bad idea, and yes as the above poster stated, if you scout a Roach warren you should assume Ravagers regardless, it is like a Protoss going for a Dark Shrine and not making DT's.... -_-
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On December 12 2015 09:55 LoveTool wrote:
ps. If you don't agree, then pls submit a picture of the sentry den, the marauder den, oracle den and the hellbat den - so that zergs can scout for these units also. Thx
Also known as tech lab and armory
On December 12 2015 14:02 GGzerG wrote:
It's a bad idea, and yes as the above poster stated, if you scout a Roach warren you should assume Ravagers regardless, it is like a Protoss going for a Dark Shrine and not making DT's.... -_-
Thats an awful example tho, DTs come from their own building, it would be more like DTs coming from Twilight
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United Kingdom20284 Posts
it is like a Protoss going for a Dark Shrine and not making DT's.... -_-
Like a protoss with a twilight not building DT's - much more likely to happen but not guaranteed at all.
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On a practical design point of view I think that totally makes sense and is a great thought.
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2 geysirs give you 500 gas in 90sec. Thats 5 ravagers. You also need additional gas for roaches or a lot of larva for lings. That should be scoutable. A lot of early gas taken + roach warren + 2 base = rush!
Also it doesnt matter if its a 5 ravager or roach only rush because the answer is the same. Zerg can always decide to turn 1-3 roaches into ravager and destroy your wall.
If you hold the attack, zerg is very behind because of early gas and larva investment in units. If you dont mismicro vs ravager you should win the game.
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On December 12 2015 14:02 GGzerG wrote:
It's a bad idea, and yes as the above poster stated, if you scout a Roach warren you should assume Ravagers regardless, it is like a Protoss going for a Dark Shrine and not making DT's.... -_-
Every time there is a suggestion of a Zerg nerf I see you coming in and fighting tooth and nail against it. This time however you're dishing out the most unbelievable stupid comparisons ever.
The darkshrine is very expensive tech that even requires another tech building and enables you to warp in dts anytime in the game so the game is not in your favor if your opponent prepares for dts and you decide to not build any. If building a roach warren always triggers the response of having to play super safe you fall behind every game without being able to do much about it.
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100min 100gas, 30 sec, doable at hatch tech?
I wouldn't mind.
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United Kingdom20284 Posts
As long as it's somewhat accessible without being free.
Zerg gives similar threat in the midgame - even if they're playing entirely ground, it's very common for a zerg on 4+ gasses to drop a spire. The only indication for surprise buttsex mutalisks is counting how much gas he has mined, spent and trying to keep track of how much he may have banked at any given time which is doable to some extent but much harder than reading any other race.
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On December 12 2015 13:34 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 08:53 blade55555 wrote:On December 12 2015 08:44 Big J wrote:
Suggestion: Adept Den and Sentry Den to allow for scouting in TvP and ZvP. Reasoning: Protoss has been winning a lot with low tier gateway timings throughout all of SC2, this would allow people to know which Gateway units to prepare against. DEAL! Let's do this It's already in the game. It's one building called a Cybernetics Core! It's just built immediately every game because the options needed to live are gated behind it (if you look at zerg for example, queen is on the spawning pool while msc is on the higher tech building)
The ravager den is also already in the game. It's called a roach warren!
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If you gain vision of the stargate then you can see which unit is in production, that's often used especially on the first 2 units and to help keep track of later game army composition
Didnt know this. This is cool if its true.
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This change feels unnecessary to me, from a zerg perspective if I want to do a "ravager rush" my build order is very different to that of a standard play. I need much earlier gas and i'm building early roaches which I don't wan to do. There are plenty of signs that this early aggression is coming you just need to be a bit smarter when you scout and not require such an obvious flag.
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Is make it cost something minor like 50/50 or somrthing. Just an indicator is fine
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Honestly, this is unnecessary for scouting point of view, only if Ravager timings hits too soon then yes it could be one way to do it, but I don't think this is the case (except maybe with a hatch first on a gold base).
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More depth in the tech tree is something I would really appreciate. Too much is accessible too early and scouting is almost meaningless. Also as a newer player how in the hell can you not get overwhelmed, with 3 new units pr. tech structure you add. It slows down the game, which might actually be the reason this has not happened yet, though if Blizzard wishes to slow down the game a bit, it really should be in this area.
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On December 13 2015 01:11 ejozl wrote:
More depth in the tech tree is something I would really appreciate. Too much is accessible too early and scouting is almost meaningless. Also as a newer player how in the hell can you not get overwhelmed, with 3 new units pr. tech structure you add. It slows down the game, which might actually be the reason this has not happened yet, though if Blizzard wishes to slow down the game a bit, it really should be in this area.
yeah, but that's a problem of just having too many units in the game. You can't have them all somewhat viable when they require tons of different techs and extra investments. If that's the case players will eventually just say fuck it make more of the same. Remember when reapers required a techlab? Hellbats required transformation servos? Terran Starport units that require a techlab, or even more, a fusion core? Do you think we would see immortals if they required an extra tech structure and Protoss wouldn't get 3 units of the robo immidiatly? Same for Protoss stargate tech, how many oracles, phoenixes or void rays would we see if any of these units would require an extra tech building?
In-accessibility and big passive investments for units is the main reason they are not being used in a game that is mainly played around cookie-cutter timings. I think the right call in all of those situations is plainly to adjust the costs/stats/build times of the units, but not introduce tons of extra barriers. (or remove units, but that's not really an option anymore)
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On December 13 2015 01:49 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 01:11 ejozl wrote:
More depth in the tech tree is something I would really appreciate. Too much is accessible too early and scouting is almost meaningless. Also as a newer player how in the hell can you not get overwhelmed, with 3 new units pr. tech structure you add. It slows down the game, which might actually be the reason this has not happened yet, though if Blizzard wishes to slow down the game a bit, it really should be in this area. yeah, but that's a problem of just having too many units in the game. You can't have them all somewhat viable when they require tons of different techs and extra investments. If that's the case players will eventually just say fuck it make more of the same. Remember when reapers required a techlab? Hellbats required transformation servos? Terran Starport units that require a techlab, or even more, a fusion core? Do you think we would see immortals if they required an extra tech structure and Protoss wouldn't get 3 units of the robo immidiatly? Same for Protoss stargate tech, how many oracles, phoenixes or void rays would we see if any of these units would require an extra tech building? In-accessibility and big passive investments for units is the main reason they are not being used in a game that is mainly played around cookie-cutter timings. I think the right call in all of those situations is plainly to adjust the costs/stats/build times of the units, but not introduce tons of extra barriers. (or remove units, but that's not really an option anymore)
In this case however you can hardly argue that adding another small requirement to be able to build ravagers will make it unusable. Changing stats or cost/buildtime will nerf it throughout the game which at this point may not be needed.
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Why? The ravager all in thing only works against terrible people who can't infer that a roach warren on two base is a ravager all in coming for you, seriously even at a petty high diamond/low masters level unless you have some super crispy ass timings the Terran has more then enough time to prepare.
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On December 13 2015 08:58 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Why? The ravager all in thing only works against terrible people who can't infer that a roach warren on two base is a ravager all in coming for you, seriously even at a petty high diamond/low masters level unless you have some super crispy ass timings the Terran has more then enough time to prepare.
regardless of the strength of ravager allins specifically, as a broad design principle i think it's great for people to be able to positively impact their game with more scouting. scouting properly takes a lot of awareness, and the rewards should be high
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On December 12 2015 07:59 crazedrat wrote:
PvZ Ravagers are not much of an issue, pylon overcharge makes sure of that. TvZ they're an issue if you want to open fast CC, mainly if you follow up with 2 or more barracks. Otherwise not a big problem there either.
LOL okay they outrange Pylon Overcharge handily and their ability kills them pretty fast + you can't miss.
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honestly it seems pretty easy to scout... Like if zerg has three bases and throws down a roach warren, it's most likely a safety RW.
If Z has 2 bases and mining off two extractor by 30ish supply, then it's a ravager push.
That's it, don't go out complaining about stuff you don't understand. You can read the game, it's just not that simple (ofc not).
As for a longer Lurker timing, really? I mean they take forever to morph, the den itself and the hydras into lurker seem like a long morph. Ravager morph is ridiculously fast I'll give you that. Lurkers are immensely powerful, but they take a long time to get to.
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I just don't see the point. If you're arguing that Zerg have too many options just scout more. If you scout a roach warren scout a little while later to see if you can find morphing ravagers or other signs of the attack coming. It just seems like a needless addition that actually hampers the race.
It seems like its not nearly the problem that most people have with Zerg (nydus/ultra/parasitic bomb) and to change something like a Ravager den instead of fixing actual problems just seems silly to me
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On December 13 2015 09:24 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 08:58 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Why? The ravager all in thing only works against terrible people who can't infer that a roach warren on two base is a ravager all in coming for you, seriously even at a petty high diamond/low masters level unless you have some super crispy ass timings the Terran has more then enough time to prepare.
regardless of the strength of ravager allins specifically, as a broad design principle i think it's great for people to be able to positively impact their game with more scouting. scouting properly takes a lot of awareness, and the rewards should be high
yea you can just scout the gases like zerg has to do when playing terran
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On December 12 2015 13:34 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 08:53 blade55555 wrote:On December 12 2015 08:44 Big J wrote:
Suggestion: Adept Den and Sentry Den to allow for scouting in TvP and ZvP. Reasoning: Protoss has been winning a lot with low tier gateway timings throughout all of SC2, this would allow people to know which Gateway units to prepare against. DEAL! Let's do this It's already in the game. It's one building called a Cybernetics Core! It's just built immediately every game because the options needed to live are gated behind it (if you look at zerg for example, queen is on the spawning pool while msc is on the higher tech building) Show nested quote +Umm... There is a lot of similar situations like not knowing if Protoss is making Oracles or Pheonix If you gain vision of the stargate then you can see which unit is in production, that's often used especially on the first 2 units and to help keep track of later game army composition Tech lab rax and reactor factory. You often have advanced warning and short term knowledge of what the terran can actually build at the times where limited production facilities matter most
By that logic same with Ravagers! You scout a roach warren and BAM you know that Ravagers can be made!
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I haven't watched every pro game recently and the meta is evolving quickly. That said...
1)I don't see early ravager pushes as a problem. Of course you can die to them, but you also die to any cheese if you don't prepare.
The issue is ravagers as part of the roach/ravager or roach/ravager/hydra composition. Forcing a ravager den doesn't solve this.
2)Like others said in here, if you scout a rw, you can almost assume a roach based composition. It's really rare these days to do the safety roach build without ravagers. Keep in mind any early rw seriously hurts zerg eco.
Bottom line: you can't blindly mass helions. You gotta look for the rw with reaper or just blindly counter roach based play.
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On December 12 2015 07:59 crazedrat wrote:
PvZ Ravagers are not much of an issue
Is Snutes 3 base roach ravager all in not effective at higher ranks any more? Photon overcharge is pretty easy to deal with using corrosive bile I've found in diamond league at least.
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On December 13 2015 13:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
I haven't watched every pro game recently and the meta is evolving quickly. That said...
1)I don't see early ravager pushes as a problem. Of course you can die to them, but you also die to any cheese if you don't prepare.
The issue is ravagers as part of the roach/ravager or roach/ravager/hydra composition. Forcing a ravager den doesn't solve this.
2)Like others said in here, if you scout a rw, you can almost assume a roach based composition. It's really rare these days to do the safety roach build without ravagers. Keep in mind any early rw seriously hurts zerg eco.
Bottom line: you can't blindly mass helions. You gotta look for the rw with reaper or just blindly counter roach based play.
Any time you suggest the solution to a problem is blind counter you encourage stale boring metas. Look at tvp in hots, every terran has to basically blind counter Oracle regardless of how well they scout the main of protoss. Making almost every safe tvp build play out the same for the terran for the first 5-8 minutes while the protoss has like 5 viable options (robo, stargate, gateway, blink/dt, fe, etc).
Same shit happening now in tvz, terran has to blind counter roach / ravager and park themselves on 2 mining bases while zerg can go any combination of fast third or speedling or roach or lair into muta / nydus / lurker. All so they can play a macro game, not that there's any significant advantage to playing a late game Terran vz or vp.
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Would having a ravager den cost/morph time change early game ZvP? If Zerg had to actually fear cannons again and couldn't get ravagers out till quite a bit later and couldn't 3 hatch before pool anymore? Or would Protoss still just die to a Nydus, ravager or not.
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On December 13 2015 13:42 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 13:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
I haven't watched every pro game recently and the meta is evolving quickly. That said...
1)I don't see early ravager pushes as a problem. Of course you can die to them, but you also die to any cheese if you don't prepare.
The issue is ravagers as part of the roach/ravager or roach/ravager/hydra composition. Forcing a ravager den doesn't solve this.
2)Like others said in here, if you scout a rw, you can almost assume a roach based composition. It's really rare these days to do the safety roach build without ravagers. Keep in mind any early rw seriously hurts zerg eco.
Bottom line: you can't blindly mass helions. You gotta look for the rw with reaper or just blindly counter roach based play. Any time you suggest the solution to a problem is blind counter you encourage stale boring metas. Look at tvp in hots, every terran has to basically blind counter Oracle regardless of how well they scout the main of protoss. Making almost every safe tvp build play out the same for the terran for the first 5-8 minutes while the protoss has like 5 viable options (robo, stargate, gateway, blink/dt, fe, etc). Same shit happening now in tvz, terran has to blind counter roach / ravager and park themselves on 2 mining bases while zerg can go any combination of fast third or speedling or roach or lair into muta / nydus / lurker. All so they can play a macro game, not that there's any significant advantage to playing a late game Terran vz or vp.
Well, the meta is always going to end up "boring" because usually there is 1 optimal, "best" way to play. Ex. ling bling muta vs T in HOTS. Though other styles are still possible (roach/hydra).
In HOTS, Terrans had to open to counter oracles, but it's not like you say. Just as many Terrans opened factory as reaper into 3 rax.
Don't know what you mean by "parked on 2 bases." If you open triple orbital and scout a rush, of course you should wait to fly it out. Even if they contain you on 2 bases while they take third, the eco blast once mules land on third and tech you achieve (upgades, medis) will eventually make it worth it.
A lot of the Zerg openings you list count on getting damage done (mutas, nydus). That's not standard macro. Heard many pros say Lurkers aren't out in time.
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On December 12 2015 08:56 Heyjoray wrote:
Oh, roaches....OH MY GOD RAVAGER WHERE DO THEY COME FROM!? Are you serious?
Literally, the whole post talks about preparing for ravagers and then dying to other things. The problem isn't where they come from its the asymmetric response and losing to builds that look similar but are not ravagers.... Its like people don't even look at a post, see a picture, then post a dumb comment without even reading the first sentence of the post.
On December 12 2015 22:38 jinjin5000 wrote:
Is make it cost something minor like 50/50 or somrthing. Just an indicator is fine
This literally gets rid of the entire point of the whole post. Committing to the tech over other techs/options.
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Damn, using scans has apparently become impossible in LOTV it seems..
As a zerg you have to sloooooowly get an overlord in, with a fair chance you are gonna lose it, or run lings in, that you are almost certain you are gonna lose them, to scout the terran base, while as a terran all you have to do is use the scan, and now even that is considered too hard?? Maybe Blizzard should accomodate for the single digits APM of the LOTV terrans, then..
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your Country52797 Posts
On December 14 2015 12:07 waiting2Bbanned wrote:Damn, using scans has apparently become impossible in LOTV it seems.. As a zerg you have to sloooooowly get an overlord in, with a fair chance you are gonna lose it, or run lings in, that you are almost certain you are gonna lose them, to scout the terran base, while as a terran all you have to do is use the scan, and now even that is considered too hard?? Maybe Blizzard should accomodate for the single digits APM of the LOTV terrans, then..
I don't see your point here. We both know that scouting has been extremely asymmetrical for years and hasn't changed much. This thread is discussing whether it's too difficult to tell ravagers from non-ravagers, not whether terran can scout zerg.
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I think it would be better just to nerf the ravager itself.
-1 range (permanent) and slower speed, but it gets a speed buff in tandem with roach speed
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I don't know why the post makes it sound it is difficult to prepare for those builds.
Nydus and burrow roach movement requires lair.
I guess the only build that really is similar to roach long all in but I don't see it being harder than defend when you are building up against an all in anyway
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Ravagers require a very specific response but there's no way to tell if they're coming until you actually see them on the field.
I think it's only common sense that Ravagers require a Roach Warren upgrade to 1) slow down the speed at which they're available and 2) clearly indicate to the opponent that it's possible for Ravagers to exist at that point in time.
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EPT
