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qxc's thoughts: Adepts are too Strong

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qxc's thoughts: Adepts are too Strong

Text byqxc
Graphics bylichter
September 25th, 2015 09:57 GMT



Everything in this article is my opinion unless otherwise stated. As a progamer for several years now, I have a wealth of personal experience and observations to draw upon. That said, sometimes I have to speculate.

The adept is overpowered. It is too strong and has too few weaknesses in the early game. In addition, the adept fails to scale well into the mid- and lategame due to its lack of meaningful upgrades. By reducing the adept’s early game stats and putting more value on its upgrades the adept can be a more rounded unit that is useful, but not overbearing in all parts of the game.

In a recent community feedback (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/18596068245?page=1#0), Blizzard posted:

We just don’t want to be too quick to judge on the Adept strength at this point, because it’s not uncommon for players to overreact when core units are added. One good example here is when the Marauder was first introduced back in Wings of Liberty, for a very long time, even after the game launched, we were getting so much feedback, especially from Korean players, that Marauders were completely broken and needed to be nerfed. We never did nerf them, but they’ve been seen as well balanced all throughout HotS.

[image loading]
While adepts may never rival this, #NeverForget


This statement glosses over some important facts. The first is that at the release of Starcraft II Wings of Liberty, the general skill level in the game was much lower. We figured things out much slower. It takes a substantial amount of time to get even a basic mastery of a game regardless of RTS background and while similar to BW, Starcraft 2 was a significant transition for everyone. The top players of LoTV are substantially better than the best players of early Wings. As players are faster at figuring out strategies and counters balance related issues can be acted on faster. The second issue with this statement is that, while marauders never got nerfed in Wings, a large number of nerfs occurred in situations that involved marauders. See below for a list of changes that occurred around the release of Wings that affected the marauder’s strength in various situations.

For a list of Starcraft 2 patches: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patches

Medivac: Acceleration reduced from 2.315 to 2.25. Speed reduced from 2.75 to 2.5.
Huge hitpoint increase for Protoss & Zerg buildings
Archon -> massive, range 2->3
Stim 140 -> 170 seconds,
Zealots always hit fleeing target at least once,
Immortal range 5 -> 6,
Ultralisk Speed increased from 2.25 to 2.9531. Build time decreased from 70 to 55. Splash radius increased from 1.5 to 2.5. Splash radius increased from 90° to 180° in front of the ultralisk.
Barracks build time 60 -> 65,

Most recently in LotV, the marauder’s attack became 2 separate attacks so now armor is applied twice. Each point of armor reduces the marauder’s damage by around 5-10%. The marauder was not fine and was not fixed by players getting better at the game alone. The marauder’s reduced strength in Wings came from a variety of indirect nerfs to supporting units as well as upgrades and buffs to its opposition. The adept is too strong in the early game and fails to scale well as the game goes longer and longer.

[image loading]
The adept can threaten a huge range with its shade.

[image loading]
This shows the distance the shade can travel which is more than a screen away.


In Starcraft, upgrades are used so that early game units scale into the mid/late game and keep up with units that are not available immediately. In virtually all cases, the cost of the upgrade is negligible compared to amount of value it delivers. Stim is 100/100 but easily is worth several times that in combat efficiency. Zergling speed is also 100/100 and increases the utility of zerglings tremendously. Upgrades are balanced in a way that the resources serve as a minimum threshold to invest in that upgrade. IE: Getting stim when you only have 3 marines doesn’t make any sense because you don’t have sufficient economy to support it or enough units to benefit from it. The upgrade time is an additional factor which creates timing windows and room for counterplay and scouting. The adept’s lack of scaling is due to the fact that its only upgrade (+50 shields) doesn’t add much in the way of utility unlike many other upgrades such as charge, blink, storm, stim, roach speed and so on.

The adept’s primary strengths are:

- Bonus damage vs Light
- Good scouting unit
- High hitpoints
- Low gas investment
- Low tech requirement
- Not melee
- High threat range (due to shade)

The adept’s primary weaknesses are:

- Low DPS vs armored
- Can’t attack air
- Low mobility besides its shade
- Weak in deathball vs deathball armies (200/200)


The most important thing is that the adept’s strengths are all focused on the early game while its weaknesses don’t factor in until the mid or late game. For each thing that the adept can’t do, it can gain stats elsewhere. The stalker is a great example of a unit that cannot really do anything particularly well, but can be applied in some degree to almost any situation. It has high range, can attack air, decent mobility and relatively high hitpoints. To balance all those strengths out, the stalker has atrocious DPS. The adept, on the other hand, has only 4 range, can’t attack air and is relatively slow. To compensate those downsides, it has much higher base stats. The problem is that the adept dominates the early game where the majority of targets are light, high mobility isn’t as important, and attacking air makes little difference. While it’s true that armored units can stand toe-to-toe with the adept, the early armored units have either too low mobility or DPS to prevent the adept from killing a substantial number of workers. The roach is notable in that it has decent DPS, but it still has issues chasing the adepts around.

[image loading]
Adepts kill a lot of scvs while marauders try to stop them.


The adept’s initial stats are just too high, especially when combined with the shade ability. Consider a ground unit that had 20 HP, no attack, the movement speed of an adept and the shade ability. How much would that unit cost? It would serve a role similar to an early observer or a reaper in that you would probably make 1 to send to your opponent’s base and get scouting information. Later on, it could be used as a general map scout / spotter. This ability must cost something. 25/0 or 25/25 seem like a reasonable value considering it would be a pure scouting unit and not the most reliable at that.

[image loading]
A marauder and an adept have a slap fight.


The adept, which is 100/25, has roughly 75/0 or 75/25 worth of resources going just to its stats considering the shade ability is worth something. No other tier 1 unit has any special abilities initially. Which means that a substantial chunk (~15-30%) of the adept’s value should be in having the shade ability to start unlike any other tier1/tier1.5 unit. The adept is a mid game unit masquerading as a tier 1.5 unit (effectively tier 1 with increased worker start in LotV). In game, the adept does not feel like it’s missing a substantial chunk of stats due to having the shade ability. It outclasses every other early game unit in general utility. Although, there are units that it can’t dominate in a straight up fight like stalkers, marauders and roaches, it provides incredible value for scouting and can often get many worker kills while the defender tries to kill it.

[image loading]
The adept’s range allows for a lot of micro potential vs marines.


From a more design oriented standpoint, the adept is problematic because it replaces the zealot for a large part of the game, if not all together in many cases. The zealot has traditionally been protoss’ cheap, mineral heavy tank unit. The adept, with 30 more shields to start, and 80 more after the upgrade replaces the zealot as the tank unit in the protoss arsenal. The zealot, with its recent charge buff (charge now deals +8 damage on hit) fulfills a more damage oriented role. The problem is that the adept’s kit makes more sense on a damage oriented unit rather than a tanky one. The adept does bonus damage to workers and has an ability that allows it to bypass armies and maneuver inside an opponent’s base. All of these traits work better on a dps harass type unit. Regardless, the adept and zealot need to have more separate roles to maintain diversity in the protoss arsenal. One of these units needs to be the tank and the other one needs to be the damage. For this analysis, I’ll be looking solely at rebalancing the adept. I leave the redesign of both units in tandem as an exercise to the reader.

First, tone down the adept’s early game strength. Reduce the +damage vs light to +4 (was +13). Increase its base damage to 11 (was 10). The adept now 3 shots zerglings, marines and workers instead of 2-shotting them and does slightly better vs armored targets. Reduce its shields to 90/70 (was 90/90). This is a ~11% decrease in total HP. Reduce the duration of the shade to 5 (was 7) seconds. These changes should bring the adept more in line with other tier 1 units while leaving its core functionality in tact.

Next, increase the strength and utility of the adept’s upgrades to help it scale better as the game goes on.

Twilight council upgrade: Plasma shields, gives +50 shields, and an additional +12 damage vs light (Adept after upgrade is +17 vs light, was +13).

Templar Archives upgrade: Enlightenment, 150/150: The adept gains a second ‘shade’ ability which has duration 10 seconds. Only one shade may be active at a time.

These changes together make the adept less of an issue early game by reducing its tankiness, killing power and threat range while bringing its strength up as the game goes longer by giving additional damage and more versatility. By having 2 shade abilities of different duration the adept will have more options for mobility.

[image loading]
Combining adepts with a warp prism allows for even more survivability.


Alternatively, if adepts required a twilight council to be built their initial stats could remain unchanged. Then the adepts could gain some of the additional damage from the twilight council upgrade proposed above as well as have a second upgrade on the templar archives.

Note that these suggestions are all theoretical. I do not claim them to be correct, but they are a step in the correct direction. Right now, the adept provides too much value for too little cost to the point of pigeon holing matchups into a very narrow set of choices. Protoss players rarely build anything except for adepts early on and continue to use them to the exclusion of most other units in many games. While the adept has substantial weaknesses (no attack vs air, terrible dps vs armored and somewhat low range/mobility w/o shade), these do not manifest in meaningful ways in the early game. By shifting the adept’s stats around to weaken it early game while giving additional power to its upgrades, the adept can play an important role throughout the entire game without being oppressive.The current adept cannot stay as it is but only further testing and experimentation will reveal the correct balance.


Everything stated here is my opinion unless noted and/or cited otherwise. As a progamer for several years now, I have a wealth of personal experience and observations to draw upon. With that said, I sometimes have to speculate due to lack of studies/concrete facts. It’s important to note that this patch is only days old.




Previous installments:
Archon Mode
On Preparation and Build Orders
The Disruptor in Review
Liberator in Review
On SC2's Social Features
Re-thinking the Ladder
The Adept
Thoughts on Macro Mechanics
Addressing Blizzard's Community Feedback


Writer: qxc
Editors: DarkLordOlli
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ProgamerDesigner of Aeon's End
BLinD-RawR
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
September 25 2015 10:00 GMT
#2
you know adepts are too strong when the title doesn't even try to sugarcoat it.
Brood War EICWoo Jung Ho, never forget.| Twitter: @BLinDRawR
TL+ Member
robertpires87
Profile Joined October 2013
Northern Ireland87 Posts
September 25 2015 10:31 GMT
#3
It seems weird for me that Blizzard is worry about perception issue but left adept and other op things like parasitic bomb untouched. It is painful to watch the redbull final because of the adept's worker harass.

Why can't they do the same thing to adept like they do to cyclone and lib where both units have been quickly altered to be more balanced
JackONeill
Profile Joined September 2013
861 Posts
September 25 2015 10:34 GMT
#4
The problem with adepts isn't their strength. It's the fact they come waaay too early in the game. Just make the adept require twilight consil without changing their stats and they'll be fine.
tokinho
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States792 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-25 10:36:40
September 25 2015 10:35 GMT
#5
One other point I was hoping qxc would mention- In addition, warp prism the harass is ridiculous. The single picture does not do justice for just how bad this is. Fast warp gate timings with instant warp in and super warp prism micro is one of the bigger problems. I literally uninstalled the beta over the fact blizzard buffed warp gate, buffed protoss aoe, made chrono leave and forget, and the msc overcharge. I even cancelled my preorder because they never fixed the clan system, chat interface, never added casual ladders, never demo'd allied commanders, and buffed everything i hate about the design of the game. I wanted certain things that were aweful to change, and instead they buffed them.
Smile
parkufarku
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
882 Posts
September 25 2015 10:48 GMT
#6
You're a respected player and a good writer, but you are also a Terran player and tend to write things from the T perspective. Even if this article is well-written, I have a hard time not believing QXC's views are distorted and biased from the race he plays. High level players can't be biased? Look at Avilo.

Look, Liberators are WAY more of a balance problem than anything, and the article complains about Adept. That alone make me disregard this post as a 'polished balance whine' on SC2 general page.
Beastyqt
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Serbia516 Posts
September 25 2015 11:01 GMT
#7
On September 25 2015 19:48 parkufarku wrote:
You're a respected player and a good writer, but you are also a Terran player and tend to write things from the T perspective. Even if this article is well-written, I have a hard time not believing QXC's views are distorted and biased from the race he plays. High level players can't be biased? Look at Avilo.

Look, Liberators are WAY more of a balance problem than anything, and the article complains about Adept. That alone make me disregard this post as a 'polished balance whine' on SC2 general page.


Made me laugh, thanks for that buddy !
Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/Beastyqt YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/beastyqtsc2
Rehio
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1718 Posts
September 25 2015 11:02 GMT
#8
I saw the title and there was this half-hope that I would open the article and it would simply say

"Adepts are too strong."

and that would be the end.

---

Lovely article, as usual. QXC, you are absolutely fantastic in your analysis of this game and every post you make impresses me more. :D
fluidrone
Profile Blog Joined January 2015
France1478 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-25 11:11:06
September 25 2015 11:05 GMT
#9
#1 Introduce a new core unit: marauder/adept whichever
#2 Make it op so that it is used (overboard use)
#3 Wait and detour public dissension
#4 Nerf/buff it and every other core unit to balance
#5 Enjoy

[image loading]

User was warned for this post
"not enough rights"
StaN.de
Profile Joined January 2012
Germany50 Posts
September 25 2015 11:09 GMT
#10
100% agree. I also think that both stats (HP & Damage vs light) have to be touched!
EatingBomber
Profile Joined August 2015
1017 Posts
September 25 2015 11:13 GMT
#11
On September 25 2015 19:48 parkufarku wrote:
You're a respected player and a good writer, but you are also a Terran player and tend to write things from the T perspective. Even if this article is well-written, I have a hard time not believing QXC's views are distorted and biased from the race he plays. High level players can't be biased? Look at Avilo.

Look, Liberators are WAY more of a balance problem than anything, and the article complains about Adept. That alone make me disregard this post as a 'polished balance whine' on SC2 general page.


Wow, pathetic. Qxc presents numerous reasons as to the Adept's excessive strength, as well as numerous ways to resolve the issue, and your only response is that he is biased? Can you possibly, just possibly, pull your head out of your loose asshole so that you can see that the only way an article that effectively calls for a nerf to a certain race makes it to the front page of Team Liquid is through the fact that it is well-researched first, and in agreement with the majority of players' views second? It's people like you who would stand up on your piss-soaked hind legs and howl 'balance whine', when in reality the article's author is clearly trying to improve the game, as seen in how he has written numerous articles on LotV.
NeThZOR
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
South Africa7387 Posts
September 25 2015 11:15 GMT
#12
They are imba, pls nerf Blizz.
SuperNova - 2015 | SKT1 fan for years | Dear, FlaSh, PartinG, Soulkey, Naniwa
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
September 25 2015 11:31 GMT
#13
Thanks for the input, I definitely agree with most of it!

But I think we have to talk about the Warpris as well. I also feel like the shade should not be invulnerable. Maybe we can keep it's early game strength if the Warpprism was weaker and the shade could be killed.

This is more from a zvp perspective I guess, Stephano also said he thinks the Warpprism is the problem, not the Adept, after playing tons of games vs the number 1 GM toss.
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
BEARDiaguz
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Australia2362 Posts
September 25 2015 11:35 GMT
#14
On September 25 2015 19:48 parkufarku wrote:
You're a respected player and a good writer, but you are also a Terran player and tend to write things from the T perspective. Even if this article is well-written, I have a hard time not believing QXC's views are distorted and biased from the race he plays. High level players can't be biased? Look at Avilo.

Look, Liberators are WAY more of a balance problem than anything, and the article complains about Adept. That alone make me disregard this post as a 'polished balance whine' on SC2 general page.


High level players like avilo, giggle.

For real though, I'm like 80% certain that adepts/prism in their current state basically force Terran into 3 rax bio openers as a just in case. Any other build, even if it scouts the robo with a scan or something, is just immediately fucked as it simply won't have enough units to stop the in your face warp in craziness and there's simply no way you can prevent the warp prism making it's incision. Last time Terran were that pressured early on was during the heydey of blink stalker craziness and I think we can all agree that was some stupid shit.

Adepts can probably well do with some toning down, though I also suspect the Protoss midgame will suffer a lot as a result. Ever since they nerfed colossus their midgame's been pretty miserable, and I suspect that will continue to be the case. Currently they get by just with silly adept stalker warp prism timings but more often then not if they're just playing standard amass the deathball style Protoss play they struggle tremendously against ghosts and drops and Terran macro.
ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
GoSuNamhciR
Profile Joined May 2010
124 Posts
September 25 2015 11:38 GMT
#15
On September 25 2015 20:35 BEARDiaguz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2015 19:48 parkufarku wrote:
You're a respected player and a good writer, but you are also a Terran player and tend to write things from the T perspective. Even if this article is well-written, I have a hard time not believing QXC's views are distorted and biased from the race he plays. High level players can't be biased? Look at Avilo.

Look, Liberators are WAY more of a balance problem than anything, and the article complains about Adept. That alone make me disregard this post as a 'polished balance whine' on SC2 general page.


High level players like avilo, giggle.

For real though, I'm like 80% certain that adepts/prism in their current state basically force Terran into 3 rax bio openers as a just in case. Any other build, even if it scouts the robo with a scan or something, is just immediately fucked as it simply won't have enough units to stop the in your face warp in craziness and there's simply no way you can prevent the warp prism making it's incision. Last time Terran were that pressured early on was during the heydey of blink stalker craziness and I think we can all agree that was some stupid shit.

Adepts can probably well do with some toning down, though I also suspect the Protoss midgame will suffer a lot as a result. Ever since they nerfed colossus their midgame's been pretty miserable, and I suspect that will continue to be the case. Currently they get by just with silly adept stalker warp prism timings but more often then not if they're just playing standard amass the deathball style Protoss play they struggle tremendously against ghosts and drops and Terran macro.


Exactly why you nerf the adept and then fix everything else as it comes, you can't leave a matchup unplayable for one side. It isn't fun or fair to those players... I have stopped playing terran in LOTV due to it being unbearable to play to a largely inferior protoss with little chance of winning.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15961 Posts
September 25 2015 11:42 GMT
#16
On September 25 2015 19:48 parkufarku wrote:
You're a respected player and a good writer, but you are also a Terran player and tend to write things from the T perspective. Even if this article is well-written, I have a hard time not believing QXC's views are distorted and biased from the race he plays. High level players can't be biased? Look at Avilo.

Look, Liberators are WAY more of a balance problem than anything, and the article complains about Adept. That alone make me disregard this post as a 'polished balance whine' on SC2 general page.

so you think adepts are fine?
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
fluidrone
Profile Blog Joined January 2015
France1478 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-25 11:43:38
September 25 2015 11:42 GMT
#17
Sorry for picture hypertexted, that was a "I don't know kevin" moment to me, but I must of been mistaken
(https://twitter.com/coL_qxc "How I feel after finishing a lengthy article")
"not enough rights"
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
September 25 2015 11:45 GMT
#18
Ehm, this is not a backseat moderation, but why are these threads released in SC2 general and not in LotV section? I am curious for the reason, thanks!
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-25 12:04:07
September 25 2015 11:59 GMT
#19
On September 25 2015 19:48 parkufarku wrote:
You're a respected player and a good writer, but you are also a Terran player and tend to write things from the T perspective. Even if this article is well-written, I have a hard time not believing QXC's views are distorted and biased from the race he plays. High level players can't be biased? Look at Avilo.

Look, Liberators are WAY more of a balance problem than anything, and the article complains about Adept. That alone make me disregard this post as a 'polished balance whine' on SC2 general page.

if this is "polished balance whine" then there's no point ever talking about balance because anyone thinking anything should be adjusted is "balance whine". let's just give everything random stats and leave it, lest we fall into the trap of "balance whining"

balance whine is when someone angrily blames the result of a game or set of games on balance, either their own games or a favored pro player's games, when better strategies and execution could have reasonably changed the result. analytic articles from respected minds in the community are the opposite, they're useful and necessary and mentally stimulating to read

furthermore, your logic about the liberator is appealing to an implicit strawman that if qxc writes an article about adepts being broken he can't possibly think anything else is broken, which is absurd on its face. it's like being pulled over for speeding and criticizing the officer for not catching a murderer instead
TL+ Member
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
September 25 2015 12:06 GMT
#20
Adepts were made overly strong because the Protoss early game is atrocious otherwise.

The problem is that they have no time to tech anymore, and they are a race design based on teching. To compensate, they were given a unit that can hold them over to allow them time to actually tech, but that unit has to be very strong on almost no tech in order for that to function.

In short, the Adept is a product of the Protoss race design with the economy changes. If you want to nerf the adept in the early game, some consideration needs to go towards solving this problem.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
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