EPTCompensate that with better photon overcharged, buffed zealots? Dont know. I kinda like the strong earlygame adept and weak lategame adept EXCEPT for the offensive stuff (nerf prisms.)
qxc's thoughts: Adepts are too Strong - Page 3
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TheoMikkelsen
Denmark196 Posts
Compensate that with better photon overcharged, buffed zealots? Dont know. I kinda like the strong earlygame adept and weak lategame adept EXCEPT for the offensive stuff (nerf prisms.) | ||
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GohgamX
Canada1096 Posts
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zizerg
Kyrgyzstan16 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 25 2015 23:10 Tiaraju9 wrote: This was repetitively brought up by Teoita and others in the beginning of the beta, but somehow it didn't get traction in the community. Its a very good point. Yeah, we in TL Strat still aren't generally too fond of the econ changes, but it is what it is, and better to work with it and see what you can get than complain about something that isn't going to change. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
QXC makes a very good point about marauders, in that their effectiveness was moderated indirectly rather than through nerfs. Applying that same thinking to Adepts, I got this: Remove Photon Overcharge. The biggest issue I saw in the Red Bull games was that the protoss's aggression had zero downside. Make a quick robo, which means you're already insured against anything sneaky. Load up with a couple of adepts and go poke around. Warp in more if it looks promising, or don't. And if they do leave their base and you don't see it coming - no worries. Throw down two or three POs while you empty their mineral lines. Maybe, with the Adept, Protoss no longer needs PO? | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On September 25 2015 23:33 Ouija wrote: its been apparent since day 1 of beta... Thanks for the reminder? Blizzard does NOT like to change actual unit numbers.. so good luck. Knowing them they will try to fix it through nerfing the warp prism. The only other thing I could see them doing is making the shade ability available later. Wow... Day 1 beta the Adept was terrible and pretty much a joke unit. It was only strong when they buffed its stats considerably. In fact Protoss in general was awful in LotV until recently, a couple of months ago Lycan was offering extra money if anyone won a Lycan Cup (or whatever they are called) playing Protoss, and I don't think anyone got that extra money. Day 1 beta Protoss was arguably worse than HotS Protoss. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 26 2015 00:33 Umpteen wrote: Ok, explain to me why this idea is wrong (I'm assuming it must be): QXC makes a very good point about marauders, in that their effectiveness was moderated indirectly rather than through nerfs. Applying that same thinking to Adepts, I got this: Remove Photon Overcharge. The biggest issue I saw in the Red Bull games was that the protoss's aggression had zero downside. Make a quick robo, which means you're already insured against anything sneaky. Load up with a couple of adepts and go poke around. Warp in more if it looks promising, or don't. And if they do leave their base and you don't see it coming - no worries. Throw down two or three POs while you empty their mineral lines. Maybe, with the Adept, Protoss no longer needs PO? I think that is alway a valid strategy. I question whether it is the best one. The thing with these sorts of compensation-nerfs is that they hit every Protoss strategy, not just the ones in this discussion which are mainly the offensive early game adept plays as far as I would say. Though I like the suggestions because I don't like PO.  | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On September 26 2015 04:03 ROOTFayth wrote: I think people would see a massive difference with just a big warp prism nerf when it comes to adept, just straight up mass adepts without a warp prism isn't particularly game breaking The stats of the unit itself are overtuned. No warp prism nerf is going to change that. | ||
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carcelink
Spain10 Posts
I agree with the changes qxc says, but for me would be more simple to decrease light damage and time of shade, and with upgrade in twilight, the actual Adept. Because now it's a completely OP unit, as a terran seems quite quite difficult to hold. | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
On September 25 2015 19:48 parkufarku wrote: You're a respected player and a good writer, but you are also a Terran player and tend to write things from the T perspective. Even if this article is well-written, I have a hard time not believing QXC's views are distorted and biased from the race he plays. High level players can't be biased? Look at Avilo. Look, Liberators are WAY more of a balance problem than anything, and the article complains about Adept. That alone make me disregard this post as a 'polished balance whine' on SC2 general page. You disregarded every point made and attacked qxc simply for playing terran. You also somehow expected an article titled "Adepts are too strong" to focus on Liberators (which were even nerfed recently). I'm not surprised though. Shitposter gonna shitpost. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
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Agh
United States896 Posts
Hoping they leave everything as is until launch and they base any further balance changes around the top players. | ||
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Asamu1
8 Posts
If you nerf it's damage, it's attack rate needs to be increased to compensate for the mid-late game. Something like 10(+8) vs light with a ~1.8 attack timer (On normal speed; the current attack timer is 2.25). Benefits of this change: It now 3 shots workers/Marines, increasing the time to kill them from 2.25 seconds (With 1 of them), to ~3.6. It retains it's strength vs Lings, which is something Protoss has sorely lacked since BW; early lings dominate Protoss gateway units until they are in large numbers, and make it overly difficult to punish Zerg for being greedy. If in doubt, go watch Pro PvZgames on Vaani Research station, where Zerg took their first expansion at the mid-map gold and Protoss were entirely unable to punish it; This is also, largely, the reason the MSC was a necessary addition to the game, and why FFE was considered the only viable opener vs Zerg throughout both BW and WoL. In addition, this reduces the Adept's power when harassing workers by increasing the number of hits needed to kill them to 3, and with reduced HP, they would be easier to kill before dealing major damage. Combined with this DPS change, a reduction in HP would be necessary; reducing the total HP from 180 to ~140-150 would make the unit fill a bit less of a tanking role. IMO, the shield upgrade should be removed from the unit entirely, in favor of a more DPS oriented upgrade, involving a faster attack rate or a bounce attack; this would give Protoss a bit more reliable DPS in the mid-late game from a low tech unit, which is another thing the race is sorely lacking compared to Terran and Zerg. That said, I think the general design of Protoss gateway units is a bit off; they are all high HP, but low or unreliable/melee, dps. With no significant differentiation as to their roles, you generally don't want to mix units more than you have to; generally a high stalker count, with a few Zealots/Adepts to tank anti-armored damage in the early-mid game, or a high Zealot/Adept count with a few Stalkers for AA. This leads to a serious lack of diversity within Protoss compositions based on their core units compared to Terran/Zerg, who generally want to mix their core units to complement each-other until they have utility units that can protect the more DPS oriented units (Marauders tank damage for marines, as well as dealing high anti-armored damage; Roaches/Lings tank for Hydras and add more mobility or burst damage to the army) In WoL and HoTS, the reason Colossus were necessary wasn't because they were overpowered, it was because they were the only source of consistent, reliable damage output for the Protoss army; that damage being AOE made them a bit too strong in some situations (Like against marine-heavy bio armies, Hydras, and Marines), but nonetheless, the unit was necessary in the Protoss army because it fulfilled the role that basic units fill for Terran and Zerg: DPS. Essentially, the tech-tree for Protoss is the reverse of the Terran/Zerg tech trees; Bio Terran get high DPS, but low HP units as the initial tech (Marines, Marauders), with more durability being added to the army are mid-tier tech (Medivacs, Thors), and utility units are high tech (Ghosts, Ravens). Zerg get their tanking units initially (Roaches, Lings), their DPS in the mid-tier (Hydras), and their utility at high tech (Vipers). Protoss get their utility and army durability initially, specialized units in the mid game, and DPS from their higher tech units. There is also the issue of the Liberator in late game TvP making it near impossible for the Protoss player to win though. Right now, Protoss are winning a lot because their early all in plays and warp prism harass with adepts are too strong, but if the game goes late, they are pretty much guaranteed to lose. On September 26 2015 04:26 TheWinks wrote: The stats of the unit itself are overtuned. No warp prism nerf is going to change that. Actually, for the most part, the Warp Prism harass with Adepts is what is actually winning games. Adept plays without a Warp prism don't seem to be all that strong unless the Terran player just doesn't wall. I'm not saying the adept isn't too strong right now, but the Adept itself isn't nearly as big of a problem as people are making it out to be. It's the fact that it just has too much HP for a 2 supply unit, making it too good at tanking things like Marauders (so blink stalkers/Immortals can deal the damage), and that it has overly specialized DPS that is particularly strong for harassment. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
On September 26 2015 05:11 Asamu1 wrote: There is also the issue of the Liberator in late game TvP making it near impossible for the Protoss player to win though. Right now, Protoss are winning a lot because their early all in plays and warp prism harass with adepts are too strong, but if the game goes late, they are pretty much guaranteed to lose. This is no reason not to nerf the adept. This is in fact a reason to nerf both the adept and the liberator. | ||
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Asamu1
8 Posts
On September 26 2015 05:17 [PkF] Wire wrote: This is no reason not to nerf the adept. This is in fact a reason to nerf both the adept and the liberator. I didn't say it was a reason not to nerf the adept, I just figured it should be mentioned that the Liberator is also an issue, because if the Adept is nerfed without nerfs to the Liberator, TvP will likely swing entirely in the other direction, and become overly Terran favored, since the Liberator doesn't seem to be making it into balance discussions lately with the focus on adepts. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On September 26 2015 05:21 Asamu1 wrote: I didn't say it was a reason not to nerf the adept, I just figured it should be mentioned that the Liberator is also an issue, because if the Adept is nerfed without nerfs to the Liberator, TvP will likely swing entirely in the other direction, and become overly Terran favored, since the Liberator doesn't seem to be making it into balance discussions lately with the focus on adepts. What makes you think Liberators are too good? On The Patch (talk show with CatZ and various other pros) the consensus seemed to be that the Liberator is fine, CatZ even thinks the latest tech lab upgrade was an over-nerf. | ||
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