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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On September 25 2015 21:06 Whitewing wrote:
Adepts were made overly strong because the Protoss early game is atrocious otherwise.
The problem is that they have no time to tech anymore, and they are a race design based on teching. To compensate, they were given a unit that can hold them over to allow them time to actually tech, but that unit has to be very strong on almost no tech in order for that to function.
In short, the Adept is a product of the Protoss race design with the economy changes. If you want to nerf the adept in the early game, some consideration needs to go towards solving this problem.
So another band aid for Protoss! Excellent! I am really excited for their balancing of adept, it sounds promising.
Well written QXC. Thanks1
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On September 25 2015 21:06 Whitewing wrote:
Adepts were made overly strong because the Protoss early game is atrocious otherwise.
The problem is that they have no time to tech anymore, and they are a race design based on teching. To compensate, they were given a unit that can hold them over to allow them time to actually tech, but that unit has to be very strong on almost no tech in order for that to function.
In short, the Adept is a product of the Protoss race design with the economy changes. If you want to nerf the adept in the early game, some consideration needs to go towards solving this problem.
You can always invent some pretext for a unit to be very strong, economy or whatever else, but the fact remains, if this unit is objectively too strong for its cost and its required tech, you nerf it, and buff something else instead. I can't believe that Protoss would be totally fucked beyond redemption if the Adept was slightly weaker. The adept doesn't have to be the only solution to Protoss woes. And we're lucky this time, I think adepts are pretty well designed, it's just that they're too strong, they don't need to get out of the game altogether, and they can even remain a core unit.
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The combat stats are too high, plain as that. Blizzard still hasn't understood the importance of movement-speed mobility to secure bases and defend and are trying to make protoss take bases with raw power. Which is plainly not possible without overpowering protoss attacks. The result is a unit that is too strong early but doesn't make protoss more interesting because they still lose out on the economy front.
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I don't think the adept would scale well into the lategame with just +1 base damage to everything and some upgrades that give an even bigger bonus against light and 2 Shade abilites. That second shade proposal seems extremely weird to me too.
I'd just rather see the templar archive upgrade be very expensive and give something big like +2 base damage to both adepts and stalkers (the units that scale horribly into the lategame), or +1 range, or +3 damage to bio...
Other than those, great writeup and agreed on everything.
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The idea to give it +17dmg vs light with an upgrade is terrible. That still makes this unit useless in 200/200 fights. I'd prefer a attack speed upgrade, so they have more lategame utility and scale better with basic attack upgrades.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 25 2015 21:23 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2015 21:06 Whitewing wrote:
Adepts were made overly strong because the Protoss early game is atrocious otherwise.
The problem is that they have no time to tech anymore, and they are a race design based on teching. To compensate, they were given a unit that can hold them over to allow them time to actually tech, but that unit has to be very strong on almost no tech in order for that to function.
In short, the Adept is a product of the Protoss race design with the economy changes. If you want to nerf the adept in the early game, some consideration needs to go towards solving this problem. You can always invent some pretext for a unit to be very strong, economy or whatever else, but the fact remains, if this unit is objectively too strong for its cost and its required tech, you nerf it, and buff something else instead. I can't believe that Protoss would be totally fucked beyond redemption if the Adept was slightly weaker. The adept doesn't have to be the only solution to Protoss woes. And we're lucky this time, I think adepts are pretty well designed, it's just that they're too strong, they don't need to get out of the game altogether, and they can even remain a core unit.
I'm not defending it, I'm explaining it. There are solutions, but they might be unpalatable as well. Nerfing the adept will nuke the all-ins which would be a good thing, absolutely, but you might find that Protoss can't defend expansions anymore, which was the main problem with the economy changes in the first place.
An obvious solution would be an adept nerf combined with a buff to other gateway units. A less obvious solution is an adept nerf combined with general scaling improvements to Protoss as a whole, meaning that you've decided Protoss will have a weak early game but will scale well enough that it's fine for that to be true. There are other options.
The basic gist though is that Protoss needs some kind of low tech early game option that is strong in order to be able to spend time teching. You can shift power away from the adept to other units, but remember that at any given point in time, you only have so many units out total, so splitting the adept's strength around is a net nerf (which is fine, a nerf is needed, but gotta do so carefully).
The combat stats are too high, plain as that. Blizzard still hasn't understood the importance of movement-speed mobility to secure bases and defend and are trying to make protoss take bases with raw power. Which is plainly not possible without overpowering protoss attacks. The result is a unit that is too strong early but doesn't make protoss more interesting because they still lose out on the economy front.
This about sums it up BigJ. Protoss isn't mobile enough to defend bases, and therefore needs to compensate by having raw power in their units. Typically that is provided by tech, but it can't be here because of the economy changes: Protoss doesn't have time to tech in addition to the other stuff they have to do.
Unfortunately, that means Protoss can just all-in you with those units instead of expanding.
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i think protoss will struggle really hard against zerg if you weaken their adepts. i dont see how toss can deal with early expansions if they open with ravager.
if you wanna weaken adept you need to change how protoss works
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To be fair, we never see qxc touch anything on liberators opness or anything related to Terran.
So the Terran bias is there.
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The adept needs changes, but the ones suggested in the article don't actually help it to scale late game so much as they do force it to have more weaknesses in the early game.
I would submit that it'd be easier to turn the unit into a squishy DPS unit than to attempt to keep its tanking power in the mid-game while adding (insignificant) +light damage and a second mobility ability to ... trick ... your opponent.
Here's a tentative list of changes that would take that direction:
- cost 25 / 75
- 20 hull points, 70 shield points
- 19 damage (no +light)
As for the upgrade:
- +2 range
Regardless of which changes Blizzard makes, the worst possible thing they could do for the overall design of protoss would be to move to adept to a later tier unit. Protoss' early game needs stabilization (and the removal of gimmicks like the current adept and PO) more than the mid-game. If the adept isn't a tool in the early arsenal, then Protoss' design will continue to rely upon things like PO.
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QXC, I love ya, and I hate to be that guy but this is just a beta and it's to test things out. Blizzard can be deaf about really bad things, and they've proven ignorance and carelessness time and time again, but right now the Adept is almost match breaking, in PvT especially since the Terran is required to essentially stay on one base unless the natural is a pocket, and I can assure you and anybody else reading this that Blizzard would not let something this ridiculous ruin the game.
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I believe that a simple change to make the adept three shot workers and marines would completely change our assessment of the unit. Perhaps we are overthinking the situation?
Blizzard should do this change and then work from there in my opinion. The unit should not be overnerfed and the patching proccess could work in steps. You dont need to fix it with one patch. The disruptor took several patches to be fixed.
And that original TC upgrade that got removed was not good enough to scale the unit into the later stages of the game?
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The whole concept of the Adept is rather stupid IMHO, given that it's OP right now makes it even worse. Seeing how easily they can kill eco lines they don't even have a glass cannon attribute (like the oracle). It's really dumb.
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On September 25 2015 22:08 fx9 wrote:
To be fair, we never see qxc touch anything on liberators opness or anything related to Terran.
So the Terran bias is there.
Except for the fact that they DID fix the liberator with upgrade and different tech and did not do sh*t on the adept
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On September 25 2015 21:06 Whitewing wrote:
Adepts were made overly strong because the Protoss early game is atrocious otherwise.
The problem is that they have no time to tech anymore, and they are a race design based on teching. To compensate, they were given a unit that can hold them over to allow them time to actually tech, but that unit has to be very strong on almost no tech in order for that to function.
In short, the Adept is a product of the Protoss race design with the economy changes. If you want to nerf the adept in the early game, some consideration needs to go towards solving this problem.
You took the words out of my mouth (err, keyboard?).
Basically the economy system fucks Protoss over because they don't rely on massing cheap units like Terran and Zerg but rather on tech which still takes the same amount of time to get out despite accelerated economy.
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On September 25 2015 23:05 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2015 21:06 Whitewing wrote:
Adepts were made overly strong because the Protoss early game is atrocious otherwise.
The problem is that they have no time to tech anymore, and they are a race design based on teching. To compensate, they were given a unit that can hold them over to allow them time to actually tech, but that unit has to be very strong on almost no tech in order for that to function.
In short, the Adept is a product of the Protoss race design with the economy changes. If you want to nerf the adept in the early game, some consideration needs to go towards solving this problem. You took the words out of my mouth (err, keyboard?). Basically the economy system fucks Protoss over because they don't rely on massing cheap units like Terran and Zerg but rather on tech which still takes the same amount of time to get out despite accelerated economy.
This was repetitively brought up by Teoita and others in the beginning of the beta, but somehow it didn't get traction in the community. Its a very good point.
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On September 25 2015 23:10 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2015 23:05 DinoMight wrote:On September 25 2015 21:06 Whitewing wrote:
Adepts were made overly strong because the Protoss early game is atrocious otherwise.
The problem is that they have no time to tech anymore, and they are a race design based on teching. To compensate, they were given a unit that can hold them over to allow them time to actually tech, but that unit has to be very strong on almost no tech in order for that to function.
In short, the Adept is a product of the Protoss race design with the economy changes. If you want to nerf the adept in the early game, some consideration needs to go towards solving this problem. You took the words out of my mouth (err, keyboard?). Basically the economy system fucks Protoss over because they don't rely on massing cheap units like Terran and Zerg but rather on tech which still takes the same amount of time to get out despite accelerated economy. This was repetitively brought up by Teoita and others in the beginning of the beta, but somehow it didn't get traction in the community. Its a very good point.
Lol. I know.. I was one of the ones saying this and people just said "NAAAH, YOU GOT PHOTON OVERCHARGE BRO."
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I think for Adepts to scale well in the late game they need to increase their rate of fire.
The problem when your attack is so slow is that your units die before they can dish out any damage. Look at Marines. You're getting value out of every single Marine before they die. With adepts against Stim Bio? They may get to shoot once before they die?
It's just terribly inneficient. It's the same reason Stalkers are bad... super slow rate of fire leads to very high overkill and units dying before they can deal any damage.
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its been apparent since day 1 of beta... Thanks for the reminder?
Blizzard does NOT like to change actual unit numbers.. so good luck. Knowing them they will try to fix it through nerfing the warp prism. The only other thing I could see them doing is making the shade ability available later.
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On September 25 2015 22:14 Dickbutt wrote:
QXC, I love ya, and I hate to be that guy but this is just a beta and it's to test things out.
Which is exactly why he's playing beta, and giving feedback.
Good post overall by QXC. I don't agree with the proposed upgrades, but like he said the direction is correct. The Adept is absolutely game breaking right now.
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