EPTOn September 28 2015 11:08 Advantageous wrote:
Adepts are strong? not even close.
Adepts are strong? not even close.
Really, "not even close" is the words you chose? lol... >_<
qxc's thoughts: Adepts are too Strong - Page 7
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TelecoM
United States10760 Posts
Really, "not even close" is the words you chose? lol... >_< | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
Adepts are a recipe for the fail, because they are a bunch of ideas just thrown into a bucket without being refined at all, mostly caused by the dumb ability and the dumb weapon design, which was unchanged from the original design of the unit, that has completely different uses from the original one. Did they ever test their old Adept version? It was so clunky that barely no one built them and they were very horrible, BUT they had decent firepower while attacking light units after upgrade. By toying around with the damage period/bounce attack, they almost had a good unit, quite efficient vs bio, specially marines (which is almost the core design perk of the adept). Unit testers showed that there was some potential on it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXALm9Om1Wo) but when I tried them the unit felt too clunky, too much harass-oriented, and a bit underpowered and unrefined in most combat situations. (DPS vs armor too low, Bounce damage too unreliable/inneficient because of weapon period, and damage values needed a re-test). Let's take a look now to design perks on paper: Original Adept conception (acceptable) - Infantry unit strong vs low HP infantry units. (marines/zerglings). - Infantry-like unit, more similar to Bio, total HP lower than a Zealot. (60/80, 0 armor), low cost(100/25) low tech. - High damage weapon with Bounce damage upgrade (decent DPS increase vs low HP light units since they trigger the bounce more), compensated by the slow fire rate and overkill. - Intended to work as a harass unit early game like Reapers with the shade ability. - Intended to work as a core unit like marauders but vs light. - Decently vulnerable to AoE (mech/banelings) - Complements the Protoss army mainly in terms of DPS. Actual iteration of the Adept - Protoss Roach with Antilight dmg. - Uberincarnation of Protoss unit, mass HP tank unit (90/90 1 armor +50shield upgrade). - High damage weapon with low DPS and very low fire rate, no weapon/aggro upgrade). - Still intended to be a harass unit despite the fact that HP was increased a 30% (60% with upgrade) with no cost at all. - Actually usable vs everything because of the massive HP increase. - Massive HP pool just shits over everything, but also tanks, mines, and banelings (units that should be good vs adepts). - 4 range, being too short to really combat bio, meaning that there is low dps density and high exposition. (like roaches) - Replaces Zealots in almost all instances. I think they might just have to revert the design of the Adept to a previous stage. Ideally, an infantry unit able to deal well with bio but killable by other things, and it's not very hard to do. It's all about going over the old concept and stats, BUT with well designed weapon values and some design decisions. On short, Adepts should be some kind of Marauder for Protoss, specially because they could help rebalancing some aspects of the race that have always demanded some revision/improvement (early game vulnerability, dependency on Forcefields specially vs Zerg, Gateway inneficiency vs MMM, more tradeable armies). If the core units are acceptably strong but not broken and decently versatile, some other aspects could be balanced better. Ideas to make fun and decent Adepts that ideally perform their best vs Marines/Bio - Stats in line of an infantry unit. Similar HP to old concept (around the HP of a Zealot or lower). - Increased DPS density, with higher range (5-5.5) and lower collision size (0.5 like a Zealot). - Increased DPS efficiency, with shorter weapon periods, damage decreased (less overkill). Worth considering removal of projectile, which could be a very big buff (0 overkill, like immortals). - Hard-countering toned down noticeably. - Reexploration of possible bounce damage/ weapon upgrades that work well specifically vs small collision units that usually are very clumped (marines, maybe zerglings, maybe Hydras too). Zerglings naturally space out for the attack, so Zealots are still worth against them. Bio will have the option to pre-split to avoid damage, but at the same time reducing DPS density and opening gaps for Zealots = Longer, more balanced and micro heavy fights for both. - Reexplore mobility/ability mechanics/possible mobility-related upgrade. Shade mechanic is decent, but its balance is very dependant on how good Adepts can perform vs workers. If Adepts were to be transformed into a tank unit, then it's another question. Do we want Adepts to be Protoss Roaches or Protoss Mauraders?? | ||
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kaby
Russian Federation195 Posts
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CannonsNCarriers
United States638 Posts
(1) Armored tag xor (2) -1 damage | ||
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aQuaSC
717 Posts
On September 27 2015 09:42 FabledIntegral wrote: -1 dmg to light, make shade vision like 25% of what it is now, nerf warp prism I doubt the damage change can happen, since Drones and Probes both have 40 HP, and SCVs 45. Or maybe that's the direction of balancing PvT?  | ||
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Pin
United States55 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20338 Posts
On September 29 2015 11:12 CannonsNCarriers wrote: QXC won this argument. The community feedback confirmed that Blizz is going to nerf the stats on the Adept. Blizz likes the shade way to much to mess around with it now. I expect one of the following nerfs: (1) Armored tag xor (2) -1 damage QXC won this argument It's not an argument | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 29 2015 11:51 aQuaSC wrote: I doubt the damage change can happen, since Drones and Probes both have 40 HP, and SCVs 45. Or maybe that's the direction of balancing PvT? That's the point. Greatly reduces adept strength PvT only in battles, while also reducing scouting potential. Let's be real even with reduced vision they'd be good for scouting. | ||
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BoX
United States214 Posts
Took a little while to get that nerf, so it should probably be on your list of points to make, since you're focusing on the 'rauder anyway. | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On September 29 2015 12:57 BoX wrote: They did nerf Marauders though. Originally, they were born with concussive shells. The research time and cost are low, okay, but now you have to research concussive shells. Took a little while to get that nerf, so it should probably be on your list of points to make, since you're focusing on the 'rauder anyway. That was a change made in early WoL beta though, and things changed a lot every week back then. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 29 2015 13:00 ZAiNs wrote: That was a change made in early WoL beta though, and things changed a lot every week back then. Yeah I thought they came with conc too but didn't comment. Good to know it was actually removed during the beta. Marauder rushes were insanely strong back then! | ||
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BoX
United States214 Posts
Quick, Blizzard! It's never too late. | ||
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FalconHoof
Canada183 Posts
On September 29 2015 11:55 Pin wrote: You could make this thread title with any protoss unit and it would accurately reflect QXC's thoughts. I lol'd. But seriously, even if he's 100% skewed one way or the other, the discussion is still good for the game and it's development.... Even if David doesn't listen to us, which he probably shouldn't because we're all a bunch of bigots, trolls and butt-hurt terran players... Honestly tho I've been very disappointed with the beta so far. The coolest change for me was the removal of macro mechanics, which is by no means balanced or ok, but they should have toyed with the idea more instead of just arbitrarily throwing them back in. They need to overhaul the economy in my opinion and they have still yet to do that. I don't care so much about the units because you can always tweak and change units, but the core of this game is it's economy and I am still waiting and hoping for some sweet distant muse to take us all to that awesome RTS game we deserve. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20338 Posts
That's the point. Greatly reduces adept strength PvT only in battles Adepts are weak (zealots take over) as soon as ghosts and medivacs are with the terran main army, they're just overly strong against light units early game (and non-light anti-light options are a niche that's pretty empty at the moment) | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 29 2015 14:34 Cyro wrote: Adepts are weak (zealots take over) as soon as ghosts and medivacs are with the terran main army, they're just overly strong against light units early game (and non-light anti-light options are a niche that's pretty empty at the moment) It was meant super early game, but adepts are also extremely good for making a shade onto the enemy army of MMM, and then charging in with your other units. Allows for good positioning advantage, prevents retreating, and soaks up damage while other units deal the dmg, something zealots cannot do the same. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20338 Posts
On September 29 2015 22:12 FabledIntegral wrote: It was meant super early game, but adepts are also extremely good for making a shade onto the enemy army of MMM, and then charging in with your other units. Allows for good positioning advantage, prevents retreating, and soaks up damage while other units deal the dmg, something zealots cannot do the same. If you do that, terran can hit literally all of them with 1-2 emp's and kill them almost instantly with a stim - it's staring a fight by donating half of your army. If he doesn't have medivac, ghost or liberator support then it's much more dangerous.. but every terran has medivac, ghost and/or liberator support in the midgame. It's what makes their armies truly tick I've always felt that adepts are really awesome (perhaps too much so) when you have 4 or 6 or even 10 of them but they do fall off quite extremely | ||
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always_winter
United States195 Posts
On September 25 2015 22:00 Whitewing wrote: I'm not defending it, I'm explaining it. There are solutions, but they might be unpalatable as well. Nerfing the adept will nuke the all-ins which would be a good thing, absolutely, but you might find that Protoss can't defend expansions anymore, which was the main problem with the economy changes in the first place. An obvious solution would be an adept nerf combined with a buff to other gateway units. A less obvious solution is an adept nerf combined with general scaling improvements to Protoss as a whole, meaning that you've decided Protoss will have a weak early game but will scale well enough that it's fine for that to be true. There are other options. The basic gist though is that Protoss needs some kind of low tech early game option that is strong in order to be able to spend time teching. You can shift power away from the adept to other units, but remember that at any given point in time, you only have so many units out total, so splitting the adept's strength around is a net nerf (which is fine, a nerf is needed, but gotta do so carefully). This about sums it up BigJ. Protoss isn't mobile enough to defend bases, and therefore needs to compensate by having raw power in their units. Typically that is provided by tech, but it can't be here because of the economy changes: Protoss doesn't have time to tech in addition to the other stuff they have to do. Unfortunately, that means Protoss can just all-in you with those units instead of expanding. I find it hilarious people are actually trying to justify the state of the Adept. The "we need it to defend multiple expansions" is, verbatim, the exact argument used to justify Photon Overcharge, which has had a similarly deplorable effect on gameplay. If you do that, terran can hit literally all of them with 1-2 emp's and kill them almost instantly with a stim - it's staring a fight by donating half of your army. If he doesn't have medivac, ghost or liberator support then it's much more dangerous.. but every terran has medivac, ghost and/or liberator support in the midgame. It's what makes their armies truly tick I've always felt that adepts are really awesome (perhaps too much so) when you have 4 or 6 or even 10 of them but they do fall off quite extremely. It's quite obvious you've never seen this exact scenario occur, which is prevalent throughout high-level TvP. Perhaps witnessing the event is a proper antecedent to offering theorized conclusions and proposing solutions. | ||
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AmatistA
Germany113 Posts
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K_osss
United States113 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20338 Posts
It's quite obvious you've never seen this exact scenario occur, which is prevalent throughout high-level TvP So what level are you at that's so much better? I don't think you'd even want to build adepts (at least not as an army core) once they have their midgame army going. Have you even tried building heavy adept comps against standard mid-lategame terran armies? The support units (medivac, ghost, lib) make it impossible to blob him like that without guaranteeing losing all of your units to kill only a fraction of his. | ||
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