EPTqxc's thoughts: Adepts are too Strong - Page 8
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Lavie
2 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20327 Posts
On September 30 2015 01:05 Lavie wrote: You can watch Polt streaming to see many TvP... To resume Polt thinking about Adepts : "This is ridiculous"... :-) You can watch HuK and MC too. It's pretty much universally agreed that adepts are a little wonky super early in the game and when there are few units on both sides, but they don't scale well - to the point of not being built even though their stats are unfavorably balanced at the start of the game. Having 140 shield (zealot has 50) is also a huge weakness against standard terran armies as terrans can happily build ghosts earlier and in greater numbers with no threat of colossus | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 29 2015 22:26 Cyro wrote: If you do that, terran can hit literally all of them with 1-2 emp's and kill them almost instantly with a stim - it's staring a fight by donating half of your army. If he doesn't have medivac, ghost or liberator support then it's much more dangerous.. but every terran has medivac, ghost and/or liberator support in the midgame. It's what makes their armies truly tick I've always felt that adepts are really awesome (perhaps too much so) when you have 4 or 6 or even 10 of them but they do fall off quite extremely What? This is literally like the main way tosses are taking engagements right now. Watch any GM stream. Polt was repeatedly crushed by it, Morrow was regularly using it, pretty much every player is. I'm high master's myself in the beta (low GM hots for a few seasons) and I can definitely tell you it is absolutely one of the best ways to engage. Not sure how you can try to comment on it if you aren't doing it. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
slight +light nerf and base damage buff but overall less damage slight shield nerf weapon upgrade scaling buff +/- attack passive explanations: damage changes because they're too good early game/harassment (the lights) and too limited in their scope with other things (base damage) slight survivability nerf, HP vs shield? Probably too shield dependent so we can make Ghosts less of a hard counter to Protoss midgame DPS or range buff so they have late game staying power | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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Magnifico
1958 Posts
On September 30 2015 04:36 ROOTFayth wrote: it's true that it's the best way to engage with adepts given that they have a relatively short range so you manage to do a full surround by shading in when you engage, also you prevent part of the MMM army to kite ur units, on the other hand if there are some ghosts it's true that EMP does wreck adepts pretty hard I believe that the shadow should not be able to pass through units because its a free, unavoidable surround. Some people are comparing the adept to the roach. To see how bad this free surround is, consider how bad would be if if the zerg could have a way to get a free surround with roaches. Since day one I don't understand why the shadow has to ignore collision and be able to pass through forcefields. It's just unnecessary. | ||
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Magnifico
1958 Posts
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rhythmrenegade
Belgium201 Posts
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johnbongham
451 Posts
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On September 30 2015 07:28 rhythmrenegade wrote: I think JCoto has an interesting idea that would shake things up in the meta. Thanks, but I think some Blizz designers got the idea first. Adept 1.0 was really good, BUT didn't work out well out of the box. Stats were also very reasonable. In my opinion that was caused because the Adept was clunky, the damage upgrade was expensive, and a bit UP. The whole weapon kit was well thought, mechanically balanced (short range, exposition, high overkill for high damage, optimized against light) And as we know, it followed the David Kim's route of "balance". The actual design of the Adept is inconsistent. In first place, by removing the bounce-on-kill damage upgrade, the first thing they should have tried is an overhaul of the weapon. Because the weapon was optimized to balance the upgrade potential. Also, there is a ton of inconsistencies regarding the Adept design. 230 HP with free pseudoblink for low cost (100/25) at basic tech seems plainly broken for a "harass" unit. The Adept is in fact a Protoss equivalent to a Roach with blink. Stats are in fact very similar. What we need is an equivalent of a Marauder. I think that it is not that difficult to pull off. 80/60, 1 base armor, 5-6 range, medium-fast attack. Damage something like 8+6 or a bit higher. Bounce damage upgrade at twilight: base shot splits for 2 50% shots on EACH shot (not on kill). Search range (bounce range activation value) inferior to 0.75 (size of an immortal/tank). Enjoy your marine-pack killer unit. Mechanical limitations of bounce search values would prevent too much bouncing over meele range (if Adepts get caught) and mech units. Damage would not be a problem to mech or higher tech Protoss, but useful against Zealot packs (PvP flexibility). Damage still usable vs hydras and minor swarms of lings, but not that efficient against banes. Counter play: Presplit packs of units (reduced DPS density) = longer, better fights, better engage on for Zealtos. | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On September 30 2015 08:01 johnbongham wrote: Its pretty funny how many people here are claiming that adepts dont scale well into the late game. Like, what is that even based on? All I see is them being used as a complete and even tankier replacment of the zealot that instead of charge can simply transport into the middle of an entire army and is capable of way more damaging harrasment all game long. The reaper is a good example of a unit that doesnt scale well into the lategame. The adept is basically a reaper and a zealot and a marauder in 1 unit. Not to mention they 2 shot workers!!!! Like seriously. What other gateway or rax unit 2 shots workers? Consider that, in first place, Adepts are imba right now. 2, that EMP spam turns a big pack of Adepts into a mass of 90HP units that are baad in the damage department. DPS of Adepts is not very high, utter shit vs non light, range is short (DPS density is horrible in consequence) and 2.5 weapon period is just shit. Baiting adepts into a big pack of Bio is just perfect for landing 4 EMPS and depleting the shields of a very big part of the pack and that's 60% the HP of the units. Also consider that Shield HP scale very badly vs burst damage because it's expensive to upgrade them (not ussually upgraded), and have 0 base armor. Adept lategame is not uttergarbage, but has relatively limited usability, just compensated by stupid amount of HP per cost and huge harass potential, and that's also quite inconsistent. A full medivac has way more DPS and damage potential and mobility than a pack of Adepts in equivalent supply, but is also easier to counter. Adepts have too much HP to be a balanced harass unit. In the end, the actual iteration of the Adept simply has a good early game strenght that gets shit into the lategame, where it replaces the Zealot as the tank unit. The Terran response is to just max out in higher numbers of Marauders, which take very little damage from Adepts and strongly mitigated by heal from Medivacs. Basically, we got a Ranged Zealot, having higher HP with lower damage, imba as fuck as a harass unit and very snowbally earlygame. I think that the point of having a new core unit was to create a DPS-heavy unit oriented at taking out that masses of smaller units, specially Tbio, creating a "Protoss bio", that it's what Protoss really lacks.. Instead, we just have an imba unit which is very similar to the other two core units, but with absurd impact over the early-midgame and stupid harass potential. Even if it works, it's very unpolished design-wise and not really balanced. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
They are an amazing meat shield as while they don't deal great damage themselves, they heavily divert enemy firepower to them. An extreme analogy would be an enemy attacking a planetary in a big battle. It doesn't have a huge dmg output but will soak up insane dps while you kill their army. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20327 Posts
I'm high master's myself in the beta (low GM hots for a few seasons) and I can definitely tell you it is absolutely one of the best ways to engage Can you post a vid shading into a not-small army of MMM/ghost? | ||
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halomonian
Brazil255 Posts
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CannonsNCarriers
United States638 Posts
On September 30 2015 12:48 Cyro wrote: Can you post a vid shading into a not-small army of MMM/ghost? Watch oGsTOP. It will happen next time he plays a high level P. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20327 Posts
On October 02 2015 03:57 CannonsNCarriers wrote: Watch oGsTOP. It will happen next time he plays a high level P. Record it, post vid and watch some mc/huk too. I'l check out some terran streams. Perspectives are obviously very different based on players watched since there are no real examples of these situations in actual tournament games | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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halomonian
Brazil255 Posts
On October 02 2015 04:34 ROOTFayth wrote: I'm still confused why people call the adept a harass unit, I guess zergling is a harass unit too then? IMO because the adept appears to be designed to maul the mineral line, but doesnt work right anywhere else. Zerglings can be incorporated into a core army, not just isolated harass | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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