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On April 22 2015 23:13 Tenks wrote:
If streaming was easy and free money then everyone would do it. Truth is it takes hard work and a certain talent. That is why there are so few high profile celebrity streamers. Just like any other entertainment medium.
This is true. Also, it really helped if you started streaming 5 years ago, when there was basicly no competition.. No way you are going to be a top streamer anytime soon if you start now. The one exception being, if you're a hot girl showing some skin (I don't mean to be condescending towards women streaming with actual good content).
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Reading "Destiny breaks down" left me waiting for an epic video or chatlog of Destiny losing it for real and insulting everyone from Putin to Pinkie pie. Disappointing.
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On April 22 2015 20:58 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 20:29 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2015 20:23 SixStrings wrote:On April 22 2015 11:14 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote:
I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder. In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses. I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays. "Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job. This is maybe 60% envy and 40% logic speaking. You don't have to be mining coal for it to be a real job, that's a ridiculous attitude. And that's certainly not mine. My job is quite similar to that of a streamer. I sit around either in a bar or at tourists locations and play music. I'm at the mercy of people enjoying what I do, just that they pay me for it instead of Twitch or Youtube paying me for it. The thing is, if I don't put in work, if I just fiddle around, if I play things I like instead of things people want to hear, I get paid far less. So my "wage" is a result of effort put in, which is the same for Destiny. And I think there should be a distinction. Not everyone who falls ass-backwards into money has actually earned it.
Maybe just try to be happy for the person that falls into money 
Hope they do good things with it.
You health and quality of life will be MUCH better if you are happy for them instead of resentful.
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Envy, bitterness with a dash of sexism around a pseudo-philosophical discussion on the nature of "work". Yes, it seems I'm still on the internet.
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On April 23 2015 00:03 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 23:48 Rainmansc wrote:On April 22 2015 12:19 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2015 11:58 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On April 22 2015 10:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 22 2015 10:31 IntoTheheart wrote:On April 22 2015 10:15 Fecalfeast wrote:On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote:
"Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet? There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together. That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc. He works his ass off. it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament. it was fucking pathetic. Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems. Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''. posting this crap towards tb is toxic,I hope the irony isn't lost on you
Constructive criticism isn't toxic.
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On April 23 2015 01:32 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 23:00 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 22 2015 22:26 Swisslink wrote:
According to some people here, the entire entertainment industry consists of a lot of "not real jobs". Basically everyone who does something for a living he really enjoys. Nowadays almost every hobby can in some way become a job and it's great that the same goes for computergames as well! Anything can be a real job. The whole idea of "real" vs. "fake" jobs is stupid. That said, there is a very real difference between playing/streaming video games/playing music/acting/play a sport as a profession vs. doing an office job/being a cop/firefighter/teacher/etc. as a job. As one person pointed out, the first group gets to do a hobby/passion that they've wanted to do all their life and can/enjoy doing in their downtime and make money off of it. Enjoying your job isn't a very good line to draw. However, this "hobby" aspect is a much better one. I can't and don't come home and work as a nurse/EMT as a hobby. A factory worker can't/'doesn't want to come home and create whatever as a hobby. This list could go on and on, but you see my point. There's a very big difference between "normal" jobs, where someone has to do something they wouldn't do if they weren't paid for it, and this "other" class of jobs, where someone turns a lifelong passion and hobby into a means of income. Is one more legitimate than the other? No. If you are good enough to make money off of a hobby/passion, then more power to you. That's a dream that pretty much everyone has. However, if you are the type of person that makes money this way, and yet is still spoiled enough to ever compare your job to what a teacher, cop, firefighter, soldier, factory worker, office worker, or any number of other jobs does, you need to be smacked. They are worlds apart and if you can't see the difference between making money off of what is essentially a hobby and making money doing something you would never do if you weren't paid to do it, then you have some self-reflection to do. While Destiny puts a ton of hard work and long hours into what he does, pretty much every single profession that I listed (and many more) put in far more hours for far less money while doing something that they wouldn't actually do for fun to boot. Doing something like this is just like being privileged; we all wish we grew up with a ton of money and opportunities. We all want our kids to have that. However, there's a difference between being privileged and spoiled. It's totally fine to have a lot of privilege. But you need to appreciate it, and when you don't, it's a problem. We all wish we could play video games for a living. We all wish the best to those than can. But if you do and don't appreciate the incredibly privileged position you're in, then you need a reality check.
Of course, there are different kinds of jobs. In some jobs you save people's lives. In other jobs you make them laugh. The first ones are more important and I doubt anyone would disagree. The world without firefighters/doctors/teachers would Be fucked up.
But why should the second field appreciate being "privileged"? And why are they even privileged? They hadn't become famous overnight. They WORKED to build up their status as a celeb. The same way a journalist had to work (... with lots of barely paid internships *cough* ) to become a journalist. Or an entertainer had to work to gain popularity. Are they privileged? I wouldn't say so, tbh. The only privilege a comedian (for example) has, is that he is... well... a funny person.
I highly doubt that any streamers parents were happy about the choices of their children to go for this kind of career. And even less do I think that these streamers were born into being a streamer. Or at least not more than any other person has been born into their job. (Meaning: If your parents got a higher degree, your chances to get there aren't too bad neither. But you still got to work to get there.) and it was even a considerable risk to invest as much time as they did into something that might not turn out well.
The only celebs I got 0 respect for are all these kinds of reality stars which are famous for being... famous... or stupid... But most of those haven't really worked to get into their position. They were born into it. THESE celebs are privileged, not the people we're talking about here.
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On April 22 2015 13:34 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 13:25 MarlieChurphy wrote:On April 22 2015 13:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:I can do neither, because Socialblades information is ridiculously inaccurate. It might as well be saying "well he's either making $1 or a million dollars, or anything in between". Those numbers are based on guesswork CPMs, I mean fuck, look at that variance "$2.6K - $42K" a month. Am I earning somewhere between that? Yes. Will I tell you what? No, because I am contractually obligated not to. Why do they contractually obligate people not to disclose that stuff? And how does Socialblade get their data? Socialblade guesses, they have no actual financial data. Only their viewcount data is accurate because that's public information. I don't know why we are contractually obligated note to disclose, only that we are.
I think it's because youtube is having problems with other services trying to poach large names, if they could accurately calculate your earnings they'd probably have a better shot at poaching. (Nice to see you posting here more often)
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/edit: wtf. Hard to hit the edit button an a smartphone it seems xD
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So, where do we see how much money they make off of it?
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On April 23 2015 01:33 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 01:32 Swisslink wrote:On April 22 2015 23:00 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 22 2015 22:26 Swisslink wrote:
According to some people here, the entire entertainment industry consists of a lot of "not real jobs". Basically everyone who does something for a living he really enjoys. Nowadays almost every hobby can in some way become a job and it's great that the same goes for computergames as well! Anything can be a real job. The whole idea of "real" vs. "fake" jobs is stupid. That said, there is a very real difference between playing/streaming video games/playing music/acting/play a sport as a profession vs. doing an office job/being a cop/firefighter/teacher/etc. as a job. As one person pointed out, the first group gets to do a hobby/passion that they've wanted to do all their life and can/enjoy doing in their downtime and make money off of it. Enjoying your job isn't a very good line to draw. However, this "hobby" aspect is a much better one. I can't and don't come home and work as a nurse/EMT as a hobby. A factory worker can't/'doesn't want to come home and create whatever as a hobby. This list could go on and on, but you see my point. There's a very big difference between "normal" jobs, where someone has to do something they wouldn't do if they weren't paid for it, and this "other" class of jobs, where someone turns a lifelong passion and hobby into a means of income. Is one more legitimate than the other? No. If you are good enough to make money off of a hobby/passion, then more power to you. That's a dream that pretty much everyone has. However, if you are the type of person that makes money this way, and yet is still spoiled enough to ever compare your job to what a teacher, cop, firefighter, soldier, factory worker, office worker, or any number of other jobs does, you need to be smacked. They are worlds apart and if you can't see the difference between making money off of what is essentially a hobby and making money doing something you would never do if you weren't paid to do it, then you have some self-reflection to do. While Destiny puts a ton of hard work and long hours into what he does, pretty much every single profession that I listed (and many more) put in far more hours for far less money while doing something that they wouldn't actually do for fun to boot. Doing something like this is just like being privileged; we all wish we grew up with a ton of money and opportunities. We all want our kids to have that. However, there's a difference between being privileged and spoiled. It's totally fine to have a lot of privilege. But you need to appreciate it, and when you don't, it's a problem. We all wish we could play video games for a living. We all wish the best to those than can. But if you do and don't appreciate the incredibly privileged position you're in, then you need a reality check. Of course, there are different kinds of jobs. In some jobs you save people's lives. In other jobs you make them laugh. The first ones are more important and I doubt anyone would disagree. The world without firefighters/doctors/teachers would Be fucked up. But why should the second field appreciate being "privileged"? And why are they even privileged? They hadn't become famous overnight. They WORKED to build up their status as a celeb. The same way a journalist had to work (... with lots of barely paid internships *cough* ) to become a journalist. Or an entertainer had to work to gain popularity. Are they privileged? I wouldn't say so, tbh. The only privilege a comedian (for example) has, is that he is... well... a funny person. I highly doubt that any streamers parents were happy about the choices of their children to go for this kind of career. And even less do I think that these streamers were born into being a streamer. Or at least not more than any other person has been born into their job. (Meaning: If your parents got a higher degree, your chances to get there aren't too bad neither. But you still got to work to get there.) and it was even a considerable risk to invest as much time as they did into something that might not turn out well. The only celebs I got 0 respect for are all these kinds of reality stars which are famous for being... famous... or stupid... But most of those haven't really worked to get into their position. They were born into it. THESE celebs are privileged, not the people we're talking about here.
They're privileged because they make money off of a hobby.
Yes, they put hard work into it. No it didn't happen overnight. However, nothing is ever purely a product of your hard work. That's a really selfish and naive way to look at the world. It's a combination of hard work, luck, circumstances, etc. The fact is that, for a streamer, there were a wide array of circumstances (many not under his/her control) that led that person to be able to make a living off of his/her hobby. You need a particular set of circumstances that allow you to get to that position in the first place.
Appreciate it. Love it. Work hard at it. But don't insult people by comparing your job to theirs and saying, "I work just as hard! my job is just as bad!"
This isn't about one job not being as legitimate as the other. As I've said, all jobs are legitimate. It's about simply appreciating your job and your position in the world, and appreciating what others have to do as well.
Privilege is not automatically a bad thing. Like I said, we all wish we were privileged growing up. We all want our kids to be privileged when they are growing up. However, privilege becomes bad when you don't appreciate it; that's when you start to just be a spoiled brat.
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As the Internet continues to grow people like Destiny and other Youtubers and streamers will only increase in number. Most of the detractors who say it isn't a real job, I feel it is jealousy at not being able to do what they want, play video games, entertain and earn a decent income out of it. If you earn money that is legally acquired it's a real job, simple as it gets. It isn't an easy job streaming, being entertaining is a skill few have, let alone streaming for long hours which can get exhausting combined with staring at a screen without stretching. Eventually people will just have to accept this as the new form of entertainment and entertainers need money, what really makes video game streaming different from an actor or musician in the entertainment sense, not a whole lot.
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I don't get people paying for a free product. You can watch any stream for free, and yet people donate? Can someone explain this?
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On April 22 2015 23:48 Rainmansc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 12:19 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2015 11:58 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On April 22 2015 10:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 22 2015 10:31 IntoTheheart wrote:On April 22 2015 10:15 Fecalfeast wrote:On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote:
"Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet? There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together. That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc. He works his ass off. it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament. it was fucking pathetic. Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems. Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''.
I don't have a clue who you are, but what better way to demonstrate community toxicity than have a guy hold a 5 year grudge over being blocked from a Youtube channel and not making a single relevant contribution to the thread, instead attacking a caster and team owner? What a ridiculous statement "hey you blocked me 5 years ago on your Youtube channel so you're the cause of community toxicity!". Haha ok, sure yes, banning a random guy from a Youtube channel 5 years ago is why people on Reddit attacked a Patreon effort from Lycangrope. Also it probably had something to do with the Space Lizards that have infiltrated the highest levels of government right?
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On April 23 2015 01:59 Deathstar wrote:
I don't get people paying for a free product. You can watch any stream for free, and yet people donate? Can someone explain this?
You can either donate just because you think the streamer deserves money or you can subscribe and get some sort of reward for it. Some streamers play some games with subs only or make the chat sub-only or make giveaways etc.
But most of the revenue of the streamers comes from the ads anyways I think: So twitch or whatever stream-service they use gets paid for the ads on their streams and they give a certain amount of that to the streamers based on the amount of viewers they get and how often they play the ads etc.
Why do they do this? Because streamers would just switch to another streaming-service that pays them more - as we see in china or korea for example: There they have much more streaming-services and they pay the top-streamers ridiculous amounts of money to stay on their streaming-platform.
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On April 22 2015 16:35 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 15:57 FFW_Rude wrote:On April 22 2015 13:34 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2015 13:25 MarlieChurphy wrote:On April 22 2015 13:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:I can do neither, because Socialblades information is ridiculously inaccurate. It might as well be saying "well he's either making $1 or a million dollars, or anything in between". Those numbers are based on guesswork CPMs, I mean fuck, look at that variance "$2.6K - $42K" a month. Am I earning somewhere between that? Yes. Will I tell you what? No, because I am contractually obligated not to. Why do they contractually obligate people not to disclose that stuff? And how does Socialblade get their data? Socialblade guesses, they have no actual financial data. Only their viewcount data is accurate because that's public information. I don't know why we are contractually obligated note to disclose, only that we are. Well that's ..... kind of weird. But in companies salaries are normally confidential too (You can't ask a company to say how much this guy or this guy is paid) People tell but that's because they are not contractually obliged to shut their mouth :p. In anyway if you are between those two numbers things are going well for you and it's well deserved Sir Biscuit. Wait ... we are on the internet. YOU TOPHAT MADMAN IS EARNING MORE THAN ME ! I HATE YOU DISPISE YOU AND HOPE THAT WEIRD THING HAPPENS TO YOUR CAT ! (did i do this right ?) :p No one talks like that and I thought TB hated strawman and circle jerks. Normal people get mad at internet personalities because often they get paid to express a personality or opinion that they only get away with due to their popularity and not any specific merit or logical argument, same with any position of privilege really. Sure there's the vocal minority that post jealous hateful comments because they don't realize the amount of work going into running a successful <anything>, but being an internet personality means you are deriving your revenue explicitly from that mass media exposure, so it has all the benefits and vices of existing celebrity culture. I'm sure TB doesn't see himself as that and is attempting to interject some quality into his work (I would know, I've followed him since Blue Plz and EPIC with kikijiki (where is that dude nowadays any ways)), but that's what alot of people see internet / streaming / youtube personalities as, just another format of the horrible celebrity culture that they could do with out but is getting constantly barraged with everywhere they go.
I was joking sir...
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On April 23 2015 02:09 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 01:59 Deathstar wrote:
I don't get people paying for a free product. You can watch any stream for free, and yet people donate? Can someone explain this?
You can either donate just because you think the streamer deserves money or you can subscribe and get some sort of reward for it. Some streamers play some games with subs only or make the chat sub-only or make giveaways etc. But most of the revenue of the streamers comes from the ads anyways I think: So twitch or whatever stream-service they use gets paid for the ads on their streams and they give a certain amount of that to the streamers based on the amount of viewers they get and how often they play the ads etc. Why do they do this? Because streamers would just switch to another streaming-service that pays them more - as we see in china or korea for example: There they have much more streaming-services and they pay the top-streamers ridiculous amounts of money to stay on their streaming-platform.
I thought the hierarchy of income source, in general for streamers on twitch, was
1. donations
2. subs
3. ads
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On April 22 2015 17:07 Pandemona wrote:
Yeah Twitch money is insane, personalities like Sodapoppin etc who are hitting the 6k + subscribers is just unreal. Or when you watch a stream and see like 20 subs a day you just think wow.
Well yes and no, if you have 2/3/4/5k suscribers of course you have a lot of money but ads revenue is not that big at all.
On April 23 2015 02:09 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 01:59 Deathstar wrote:
I don't get people paying for a free product. You can watch any stream for free, and yet people donate? Can someone explain this?
You can either donate just because you think the streamer deserves money or you can subscribe and get some sort of reward for it. Some streamers play some games with subs only or make the chat sub-only or make giveaways etc. But most of the revenue of the streamers comes from the ads anyways I think: So twitch or whatever stream-service they use gets paid for the ads on their streams and they give a certain amount of that to the streamers based on the amount of viewers they get and how often they play the ads etc. Why do they do this? Because streamers would just switch to another streaming-service that pays them more - as we see in china or korea for example: There they have much more streaming-services and they pay the top-streamers ridiculous amounts of money to stay on their streaming-platform.
It depends if people can sub to your channel or not, if they can and you are a big streamer, fulltime, ads revenue is not going to be the best revenue with your stream.
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On April 23 2015 01:59 Deathstar wrote:
I don't get people paying for a free product. You can watch any stream for free, and yet people donate? Can someone explain this?
Because ad revenue is pretty bad on twitch. Between the ads just plain not paying very much and rampant ad block streamers can't really be supported by ads alone. Which is why twitch then introduced subscription where you can agree to pay the streamer $5/mo (or whatever) and twitch takes half of that as well. That way the streamer can have a more guaranteed income source instead of very unreliable ad income.
So to circle back on this. I am no longer paying the streamer with my time and eyes. My ads are worth pretty much nothing to them. If I enjoy the stream and want to see it in the future I can support them financially so they have the ability to stream via either direct donation or through subscription. It comes down to appreciating the work someone has done and wanting to reward them. Not everyone feels the same and no one should feel forced to sub or donate but for others a large chunk of their entertainment is comprised of watching streamers so it makes sense to support that entertainment medium.
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On April 23 2015 01:04 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 00:03 Aveng3r wrote:On April 22 2015 23:48 Rainmansc wrote:On April 22 2015 12:19 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2015 11:58 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On April 22 2015 10:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 22 2015 10:31 IntoTheheart wrote:On April 22 2015 10:15 Fecalfeast wrote:On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote:
"Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet? There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together. That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc. He works his ass off. it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament. it was fucking pathetic. Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems. Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''. posting this crap towards tb is toxic,I hope the irony isn't lost on you Constructive criticism isn't toxic.
Oh come off it, we both know that wasn't constructive criticism.
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EPT
