Your average news story about streaming site Twitch usually begins with a statement that's meant to shock readers: You can make a living playing video games.
But this isn't really news to anyone who's followed the platform over the past four years. Twitch is now the No. 4 highest trafficking site on the Internet during peak hours, putting it right behind Netflix, Google, and Apple. If you’re sleeping on the effect that gaming has on the Internet, think about how the second youngest company (Netflix) on that list was founded 14 years before Twitch existed.
Yes, you can make playing full-time video games a full-time job. But what's less known are the details: How much can you make? And how exactly do you make it?
I spoke to one of the more successful streamers on Twitch, Steven Bonnell (often referred to by his Twitch name Destiny) to break down how a career in streaming works.
Twitch publicly details how its users can monetize their streams, though it doesn’t go into specifics on the average amount of money flying into bank accounts. Bonnell has an advantage over the average, casual streamer on Twitch—he’s a partner.
To become a partner, Twitch requires that your average viewership be above 500 and that you stream at least three times a week. New users coming from sites like YouTube should apply only if they have over 15,000 views per video and over 100,000 subscribers. The advantages of being a partner? First, you can add a broadcast delay, which makes it possible to stream a tournament without having cheaters on the other end updating players with what the other team is doing. Another benefit is the more applicable here: You can get subscribers. Partners charge $5 monthly to allow for private chats, emoticons, and whatever else the streamer can come up with.
Twitch doesn't go into specifics on its website. How much money could be made for $5 subscriptions? How much of that money does Twitch pocket? What are the rates on ads, especially with a tech-savvy audience that mostly has AdBlock installed. Bonnell, a mega-popular streamer known for his skill in StarCraft, broke down how he makes money streaming, looking at every single revenue stream. He has 62,071,582 total views at the time of publication.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
With any line of work you have to evaluate each case specifically and not give into generalizations, there's plenty of low effort entitled streamers out there making a living while being obnoxious and generally fostering a bad culture, then there's the high effort streamers who keep a schedule and put alot of thought into their content. It's the internet I'm sure you've seen both.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
because no one does spreadsheets for fun or grows up as a hobbyist in a community of people who all enjoy playing with spreadsheets together and then later becomes a spreadsheet rockstar who creates and discusses spreadsheets from their bedroom for an online audience of thousands of people
lol, seriously though, of course entertainment is a valid industry, but let's not put our heads in the sand and pretend there's no difference between doing a soul-crushing office job and being an entertainer. because that is what a streamer is, an entertainer. actors and musicians do "valid work" too, but like a gamer/streamer, they're pursuing a talent close to their heart which they grew up with and being paid money for it. it's a dream gig. if streamers couldn't stream for money they would have to do... what everyone else does, which is get a regular job. so it's hard to sympathize.
edit: one more point is that the entertainment industry literally exists based on public interest, which doesn't change. if you're going to be an entertainer you have to know when you start out that you will live and die on your audience's interest in your craft. it's not like working at a mcdonalds where all you have to do is show up and do your job, you're going into the business of entertaining people and convincing them to give you money for what you do
I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
I don't typically watch Destiny's stream because I personally don't find the personality he portrays appealing, but I have a lot of respect for his transparency and community involvement. Really interesting to read how much the top streamers make though!
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
everyone is envious of the esports dream
Nothing wrong with it. I was envious of people in cool jobs when I worked a shitty job too. The difference is most people manage to keep their envy to themselves instead of going onto the internet and slandering people they dont like. Let me put it this way, you dont get 100+ death-threats a year for working in an office. That's a plus.
While I absolutely despise Destiny as a person in almost everything he says and does the transparency with his Twitch revenue has always been something you have to give him credit for. It is very, very valuable information from someone who puts a ton of time into their community and really tells you how successful it can make you if you are determined enough.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
because no one does spreadsheets for fun or grows up as a hobbyist in a community of people who all enjoy playing with spreadsheets together and then later becomes a spreadsheet rockstar who creates and discusses spreadsheets from their bedroom for an online audience of thousands of people
lol, seriously though, of course entertainment is a valid industry, but let's not put our heads in the sand and pretend there's no difference between doing a soul-crushing office job and being an entertainer. because that is what a streamer is, an entertainer. actors and musicians do "valid work" too, but like a gamer/streamer, they're pursuing a talent close to their heart which they grew up with and being paid money for it. it's a dream gig. if streamers couldn't stream for money they would have to do... what everyone else does, which is get a regular job. so it's hard to sympathize.
edit: one more point is that the entertainment industry literally exists based on public interest, which doesn't change. if you're going to be an entertainer you have to know when you start out that you will live and die on your audience's interest in your craft. it's not like working at a mcdonalds where all you have to do is show up and do your job, you're going into the business of entertaining people and convincing them to give you money for what you do
I never commented on the difference. I did, however, strawman the person I quoted by implying that I knew what exactly he was talking about, which is kinda lame.
I do have a question for you, though. What makes a job a "regular job" compared to streaming/entertainment?
To me the entire purpose of a job is to make money. Some people make money doing things they enjoy, which may seem unfair to those who are doing jobs they hate, but that doesn't make their job any less valid.
I actually figured it would be a lot more than 100k (pre-tax I assume), ad revenue really sucks for Twitch right now I guess. I remember people making 400+ a day from ads on Twitch in 2011.
would've liked to know how he feels about long-term viability, it doesn't seem very stable with how quickly the gaming, streaming and esports landscape changes. he doesn't anywhere close to the viewers numbers he did 3 years ago's that for sure.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
On April 22 2015 11:51 Espers wrote: I actually figured it would be a lot more than 100k (pre-tax I assume), ad revenue really sucks for Twitch right now I guess. I remember people making 400+ a day from ads on Twitch in 2011.
would've liked to know how he feels about long-term viability, it doesn't seem very stable with how quickly the gaming, streaming and esports landscape changes. he doesn't anywhere close to the viewers numbers he did 3 years ago's that for sure.
the real money maker is clearly in his hardcore fan base subscribing to 10-40 bucks a moth every month. 20 bucks per an average viewer, 500 sign up and that is already 10k just from that. And because its a hard core fan base instead of a floating one that money is locked in. The ad revenue and everything else is just a bonus. The question is if other streams (a) want to spend as much time streaming as he supposedly does and (b) be able to form a near cult like fan base that views paying you 100 bucks + a year for more or less the mid-to long term.
I think it is great destiny can succeed and make a decent income. However, working 60+ hours at a job is nothing new. Ample amounts of people have to put in those hours to achieve their goals. I have work travel weeks where everyday is a twelve hour work day, call loved ones, and then I get back to my hotel and brainstorm and invest hours into writing TL articles and producing gaming content without earning a cent. In the end, I enjoy every minute of every day of my life. Investing in what you are passionate about supersedes everything. So yes, great that Destiny is doing well, because competitive gaming is about having endless passion and earning what you can be it a gaming/non gaming job so you can take those few precious extra hours and invest them back into the game.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Some of us try. You should get a brood war team, our community has become pretty civil and laid back over the past few year :D
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Some of us try. You should get a brood war team, our community has become pretty civil and laid back over the past few year :D
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Some of us try. You should get a brood war team, our community has become pretty civil and laid back over the past few year :D
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Some of us try. You should get a brood war team, our community has become pretty civil and laid back over the past few year :D
How to go Bankrupt overnight 101.
Sonic got rich making sneakers. That leaves the market open for totalbiscuitGloves and totalbiscuitMittens. STYLE START JAZZHANDS.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Some of us try. You should get a brood war team, our community has become pretty civil and laid back over the past few year :D
How to go Bankrupt overnight 101.
You can sell top-hat wearing animal figurines, posters, and shirts, like the weasel.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Could someone explain what this was? I didn't catch that.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
everyone is envious of the esports dream
Nothing wrong with it. I was envious of people in cool jobs when I worked a shitty job too. The difference is most people manage to keep their envy to themselves instead of going onto the internet and slandering people they dont like. Let me put it this way, you dont get 100+ death-threats a year for working in an office. That's a plus.
yeah but the 1 you dont get in the office is the 1 that does you in
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Some of us try. You should get a brood war team, our community has become pretty civil and laid back over the past few year :D
How to go Bankrupt overnight 101.
Sonic got rich making sneakers. That leaves the market open for totalbiscuitGloves and totalbiscuitMittens. STYLE START JAZZHANDS.
I cannot even exaggerate how much I would love this
TotalBiscuit, can you confirm or deny these numbers?
I can do neither, because Socialblades information is ridiculously inaccurate. It might as well be saying "well he's either making $1 or a million dollars, or anything in between". Those numbers are based on guesswork CPMs, I mean fuck, look at that variance "$2.6K - $42K" a month. Am I earning somewhere between that? Yes. Will I tell you what? No, because I am contractually obligated not to.
TotalBiscuit, can you confirm or deny these numbers?
I can do neither, because Socialblades information is ridiculously inaccurate. It might as well be saying "well he's either making $1 or a million dollars, or anything in between". Those numbers are based on guesswork CPMs, I mean fuck, look at that variance "$2.6K - $42K" a month. Am I earning somewhere between that? Yes. Will I tell you what? No, because I am contractually obligated not to.
Why do they contractually obligate people not to disclose that stuff? And how does Socialblade get their data?
TotalBiscuit, can you confirm or deny these numbers?
I can do neither, because Socialblades information is ridiculously inaccurate. It might as well be saying "well he's either making $1 or a million dollars, or anything in between". Those numbers are based on guesswork CPMs, I mean fuck, look at that variance "$2.6K - $42K" a month. Am I earning somewhere between that? Yes. Will I tell you what? No, because I am contractually obligated not to.
Why do they contractually obligate people not to disclose that stuff? And how does Socialblade get their data?
Socialblade guesses, they have no actual financial data. Only their viewcount data is accurate because that's public information. I don't know why we are contractually obligated note to disclose, only that we are.
Not allowing CPM disclosure definitely gives youtube several advantages. 1. It allows them to offer different rates to different people for various reasons. For example if youtube wanted to lure a famous artist to make a video for a PR event they could offer them a very good rate for a specific video or such. 2. It also also gives them an advantage against other streaming/video sites by making it harder for them to determine the rate to pay their content creators. If they were to allow full disclosure, vimeo might decide, "Hey we'll offer you X money more per view than youtube, plus other benefits!" which could kickoff a price war which hurts both companies' bottom lines.
Of course none of this is especially good for streamers or content creators but its just business.
On April 22 2015 13:51 stink123 wrote: Not allowing CPM disclosure definitely gives youtube several advantages. 1. It allows them to offer different rates to different people for various reasons. For example if youtube wanted to lure a famous artist to make a video for a PR event they could offer them a very good rate for a specific video or such. 2. It also also gives them an advantage against other streaming/video sites by making it harder for them to determine the rate to pay their content creators. If they were to allow full disclosure, vimeo might decide, "Hey we'll offer you X money more per view than youtube, plus other benefits!" which could kickoff a price war which hurts both companies' bottom lines.
Of course none of this is especially good for streamers or content creators but its just business.
I was always told that competition (especially regarding products/service/content) was good for business overall. Ie; both will profit from it in the long run.
On April 22 2015 13:34 TotalBiscuit wrote: Socialblade guesses, they have no actual financial data. Only their viewcount data is accurate because that's public information. I don't know why we are contractually obligated note to disclose, only that we are.
Care to comment on how frustrating contractual obligations are? I've always thought that kind of contractual obligation felt like secrecy for secrecy's sake, but I suppose it's probably so other competing services can't decide to offer you better numbers than you're currently getting in order to lure you away. Still, seems like kinda a dick move (but hey, the corporate world is full of dicks, so that's no surprise)
TotalBiscuit, can you confirm or deny these numbers?
I can do neither, because Socialblades information is ridiculously inaccurate. It might as well be saying "well he's either making $1 or a million dollars, or anything in between". Those numbers are based on guesswork CPMs, I mean fuck, look at that variance "$2.6K - $42K" a month. Am I earning somewhere between that? Yes. Will I tell you what? No, because I am contractually obligated not to.
Why do they contractually obligate people not to disclose that stuff? And how does Socialblade get their data?
Socialblade guesses, they have no actual financial data. Only their viewcount data is accurate because that's public information. I don't know why we are contractually obligated note to disclose, only that we are.
Well that's ..... kind of weird. But in companies salaries are normally confidential too (You can't ask a company to say how much this guy or this guy is paid) People tell but that's because they are not contractually obliged to shut their mouth :p. In anyway if you are between those two numbers things are going well for you and it's well deserved Sir Biscuit.
Wait ... we are on the internet. YOU TOPHAT MADMAN IS EARNING MORE THAN ME ! I HATE YOU DISPISE YOU AND HOPE THAT WEIRD THING HAPPENS TO YOUR CAT ! (did i do this right ?) :p
TotalBiscuit, can you confirm or deny these numbers?
I can do neither, because Socialblades information is ridiculously inaccurate. It might as well be saying "well he's either making $1 or a million dollars, or anything in between". Those numbers are based on guesswork CPMs, I mean fuck, look at that variance "$2.6K - $42K" a month. Am I earning somewhere between that? Yes. Will I tell you what? No, because I am contractually obligated not to.
Why do they contractually obligate people not to disclose that stuff? And how does Socialblade get their data?
Socialblade guesses, they have no actual financial data. Only their viewcount data is accurate because that's public information. I don't know why we are contractually obligated note to disclose, only that we are.
Well that's ..... kind of weird. But in companies salaries are normally confidential too (You can't ask a company to say how much this guy or this guy is paid) People tell but that's because they are not contractually obliged to shut their mouth :p. In anyway if you are between those two numbers things are going well for you and it's well deserved Sir Biscuit.
Wait ... we are on the internet. YOU TOPHAT MADMAN IS EARNING MORE THAN ME ! I HATE YOU DISPISE YOU AND HOPE THAT WEIRD THING HAPPENS TO YOUR CAT ! (did i do this right ?) :p
No one talks like that and I thought TB hated strawman and circle jerks. Normal people get mad at internet personalities because often they get paid to express a personality or opinion that they only get away with due to their popularity and not any specific merit or logical argument, same with any position of privilege really. Sure there's the vocal minority that post jealous hateful comments because they don't realize the amount of work going into running a successful <anything>, but being an internet personality means you are deriving your revenue explicitly from that mass media exposure, so it has all the benefits and vices of existing celebrity culture.
I'm sure TB doesn't see himself as that and is attempting to interject some quality into his work (I would know, I've followed him since Blue Plz and EPIC with kikijiki (where is that dude nowadays any ways)), but that's what alot of people see internet / streaming / youtube personalities as, just another format of the horrible celebrity culture that they could do with out but is getting constantly barraged with everywhere they go.
As for the death threats part, TB, do you report that to the authorities, or is it something you just deal with? It really is terrible to hear. We got your back though.
So Destiny makes about 100k a year? And that's after he lowered his numbers to not make himself appear too rich, he prolly makes something closer to 150k+ heh
Yeah Twitch money is insane, personalities like Sodapoppin etc who are hitting the 6k + subscribers is just unreal. Or when you watch a stream and see like 20 subs a day you just think wow.
On April 22 2015 17:07 Pandemona wrote: Yeah Twitch money is insane, personalities like Sodapoppin etc who are hitting the 6k + subscribers is just unreal. Or when you watch a stream and see like 20 subs a day you just think wow.
But 20 subs a day * $5 each is $100 a day. That isn't a lot of money as Twitch takes some of it too. It isn't very 'wow'?
Stress in your job generally scales with the amount of money you make. For online content creators, it's especially rough. They have to deal with the dark side of the online community. You have to have a thick hide for that stuff. Props to TotalBiscuit and others who are open about it.
On April 22 2015 17:07 Pandemona wrote: Yeah Twitch money is insane, personalities like Sodapoppin etc who are hitting the 6k + subscribers is just unreal. Or when you watch a stream and see like 20 subs a day you just think wow.
But 20 subs a day * $5 each is $100 a day. That isn't a lot of money as Twitch takes some of it too. It isn't very 'wow'?
Stress in your job generally scales with the amount of money you make. For online content creators, it's especially rough. They have to deal with the dark side of the online community. You have to have a thick hide for that stuff. Props to TotalBiscuit and others who are open about it.
I think he means that if you make 20 subs a day, and stream over a decent span of time, you will reach very quickly 1000+ subscribers if you haven't already.
Besides, I don't like how streamers make much more money than average progamers who don't have a popular stream, but that's just me.
From my time on youtube (granted I had a very small channel), I found the true numbers are usually relatively close to the middle of the socialblade estimates. They usually just take the view numbers, estimate roughly how many people are eligible to generate CPM revenue and then take the minimum and maximum CPM.
However, that's just how I personally felt and from what I saw in my ad revenue. Could be way off for other people, depending on what kind of ads (low/high CPM) are mostly shown.
However, this is also just pure ad revenue. Most full time youtubers also get some money/benefits in other ways, like contractual work or whatever.
I don't have much experience with twitch, but I've heard it's not that easy to live off it too. I find the youtube/twitch stuff quite interesting, but that live is not for me.
"Bonnell, a mega-popular streamer known for his skill in StarCraft" lol
Let's be frank, Destiny can probably roll 95% of the users here on TL without breaking a sweat, but it is not his skill in Starcraft 2 why he is so well-known and popular.
What he does is not a real job. He makes 7-8k a month playing video games according to this writeup.
The only reason streamers promote the idea that it's a job is to 1) discourage competition and 2) keep the donation revenue rolling. It does require a combination of luck and skill as well as the privilege of having lots of free time for building up an audience up but it's definitely not comparable to any form of labor or other forms of legal slavery that we call "work" or having an actual job.
On April 22 2015 18:40 DemigodcelpH wrote: What he does is not a real job. He makes 7-8k a month playing video games according to this writeup.
The only reason streamers promote the idea that it's a job is to 1) discourage competition and 2) keep the donation revenue rolling. It does require a combination of luck and skill as well as the privilege of having lots of free time for building up an audience up but it's definitely not comparable to any form of labor or other forms of legal slavery that we call "work" or having an actual job.
On April 22 2015 18:40 DemigodcelpH wrote: What he does is not a real job. .
hahaha SEE? I told you this guy would show up. Tell me, how is being part of the entertainment industry not a real job?
As for the death threats part, TB, do you report that to the authorities, or is it something you just deal with? It really is terrible to hear. We got your back though.
We havent. Reason being these threats are non-specific. If we thought any of them actually knew where we lived because they had exhibited knowledge of information that was not public and easy to find, we'd have gone to the police, but none of them did. That's kinda the difference between a "Credible" threat and one which is just someone being a piece of shit online. Let's be frank, 99.99% of death threats online are not acted upon and we have no reason to believe any of these ones will be.
On April 22 2015 18:40 DemigodcelpH wrote: What he does is not a real job. He makes 7-8k a month playing video games according to this writeup.
The only reason streamers promote the idea that it's a job is to 1) discourage competition and 2) keep the donation revenue rolling. It does require a combination of luck and skill as well as the privilege of having lots of free time for building up an audience up but it's definitely not comparable to any form of labor or other forms of legal slavery that we call "work" or having an actual job.
I'm actually wondering if this is a very elaborate troll or not
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
No. It has always been toxic. We're talking about video gaming culture here and it hasn't changed much since the early days. People still think adolescent kids yet our generation of gamers are now adults having kids who grew up with the ataris and nintendos of the world.
I wouldn't blame kickstarter programs for it. In either case their is too much focus on the negative rather than the positive.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
This is maybe 60% envy and 40% logic speaking.
Let's break down what you just said.
Your opinion of what is a job is entirely irrelevant to the bank. The money is real, it comes in regularly as the result of a job, it is a job. You say "winning the lottery" is a job. Winning the lottery does not require 40-60 (in my case 80) hour work weeks. Being the owner of Grumpy Cat is absolutely a job, they're constantly on planes all over the country, they're constantly negotiating merchandising deals, this persons entire life has been taken over by managing the brand of a fucking cat and I can bet you some of my "fake job" money that it's hardw ork. As for sucking off Kanye West for money, thats not legal, but it also happens to be the oldest profession in the world.
Here's the reality. New "jobs" are invented all the time. There's this famous quote that gets told to kids in elementary school which to paraphrase says "some of you are going to have jobs that aren't even invented yet".
Being a TV or Radio star IS A JOB. Being a streaming star, an industry that did not exist a few years ago, is now also a job. Watching gameplay is this generations form of entertainment, it's a brand new thing that's only been around a few years and yes some people made it a legitimate, viable career. Many fail, but many also fail to get anywhere as actors, doesn't make the real actors any less.
Are you paid a predictable salary based on hours works x some other value (in this case, ads watched)? Then it's a job. Pure and simple. You don't have to be mining coal for it to be a real job, that's a ridiculous attitude.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
This is maybe 60% envy and 40% logic speaking.
I can bet you some of my "fake job" money that it's hardw ork.
Well, I certainly wasn't calling your job fake, in fact I specifically took you out of the equation. Same goes for Destiny, who has not just worked on his brand for years, but who obviously puts in quite a few hours and hosts tournaments, etc.
This woman was interviewed because there was a fire:
Years later, because people seemed to find her reaction funny, she's a millionaire. If that's not closer to winning the lottery than to a profession, I don't know what is.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
This is maybe 60% envy and 40% logic speaking.
It's not a "traditional job" - but it is a job.
Traditional: As in, having been around for many years.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
This is maybe 60% envy and 40% logic speaking.
I can bet you some of my "fake job" money that it's hardw ork.
Well, I certainly wasn't calling your job fake, in fact I specifically took you out of the equation. Same goes for Destiny, who has not just worked on his brand for years, but who obviously puts in quite a few hours and hosts tournaments, etc.
Years later, because people seemed to find her reaction funny, she's a millionaire. If that's not closer to winning the lottery than to a profession, I don't know what is.
Convenient that you didn't quote his last paragraph.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
This is maybe 60% envy and 40% logic speaking.
You don't have to be mining coal for it to be a real job, that's a ridiculous attitude.
And that's certainly not mine. My job is quite similar to that of a streamer. I sit around either in a bar or at tourists locations and play music. I'm at the mercy of people enjoying what I do, just that they pay me for it instead of Twitch or Youtube paying me for it. The thing is, if I don't put in work, if I just fiddle around, if I play things I like instead of things people want to hear, I get paid far less. So my "wage" is a result of effort put in, which is the same for Destiny. And I think there should be a distinction. Not everyone who falls ass-backwards into money has actually earned it.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
This is maybe 60% envy and 40% logic speaking.
Let's break down what you just said.
Your opinion of what is a job is entirely irrelevant to the bank.
It's not. Because when the majority of guys decides, your job is not a real job and what you do shouldn't be supported financially the way it is, you don't have a job anymore. And with you i don't mean you personal but your average streaming celebrity. As for the argument: Of course, what you do can be real hard work. If it truly is, is a thing we can't know, but it seems likely to me, you have plenty to do.
It's a job sure, but not one I can really respect. Well, destiny is one of the streamers that I can respect somewhat, most of them not at all. Basically, you'd play video games 8 hours a day anyway, and here you just get paid to do so(And to talk which you might do anyway as well). It's really not comparable at all to working at an office for 8 hours a day unless you pretend that you'd do that even if you didn't get paid. That 100k / year is an enormous income and Destiny doesn't have anywhere near the biggest stream.
Hearthstone players making 500k+ is pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Now, I can respect players who actually have top level skill in their game, but especially female ones who wear revealing tops and act stupid and get 1k+ in donations per day, oh boy. Don't get me wrong though, it's not like I respect most artists / entertainers any more(mostly those who actually are very good singers / at playing instruments I do). And on the flipside, there are some youtube content creators / streamers who have some extremely good content that took a lot of time and effort to create. Sadly, it rarely is more popular than people who make bad jokes and embarrass themselves on stream, which I can't respect at all.
A thing about it is that it's not exactly sustainable for your entire career... Unless you're expecting to stream video games when you're like 60 years old. Then again, at the top end it doesn't even need to be. You can retire after like 5 years and live comfortably until the day you die.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
This is maybe 60% envy and 40% logic speaking.
Let's break down what you just said.
Your opinion of what is a job is entirely irrelevant to the bank.
It's not. Because when the majority of guys decides, your job is not a real job and what you do shouldn't be supported financially the way it is, you don't have a job anymore. And with you i don't mean you personal but your average streaming celebrity. As for the argument: Of course, what you do can be real hard work. If it truly is, is a thing we can't know, but it seems likely to me, you have plenty to do.
That's basically the same as being self employed, if nobody wants you to do building work for them anymore, you're fucked in the same way.
Any job you love doing does not really count as work. Of course in some cases if your doing it all day everyday you may come to love it less. Not everyone gets to do a job that they can enjoy even with the good and the bad so on some part it is jealousy.
There are professional players who put years of time consuming dedicated practice into something in order to become among the best in the world at what they do. There are people who can create content and episodes or put on a show and are great at doing it. Then there are people who cant or wont do either of these and are just bad at playing games but can be entertaining while doing so and turn up consistently. Of course the last group are the people who seem to be the most popular and have the highest income. This is perhaps where some of the feelings of 'its not a real job' come from. Or when saying 'its not a real job' what is really being said is there are more deserving people that are better at what they do, which could be applied to just about everywhere else.
There are a lot of games that I have only watched and not bought or played myself as a result of twitch. On one hand it is free marketing for the game on the other the majority of people watching will have no intention of buying the game. Of course it probably works out in an overall increase in sales for the game but I would not be surprised in some cases if streamers end up benefiting more than any extra sales the game gets as a result.
Creating a good game is hard. There are the people who can create the games, people who can provide valuable comments and critiques and people who consume the media. Twitch enables people to turn consuming the media into an income and use the games and music that others have created to benefit themselves. At least part of myself feels slightly guilty for not rewarding the game developers with buying the game.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
This is maybe 60% envy and 40% logic speaking.
Let's break down what you just said.
Your opinion of what is a job is entirely irrelevant to the bank.
It's not. Because when the majority of guys decides, your job is not a real job and what you do shouldn't be supported financially the way it is, you don't have a job anymore. And with you i don't mean you personal but your average streaming celebrity. As for the argument: Of course, what you do can be real hard work. If it truly is, is a thing we can't know, but it seems likely to me, you have plenty to do.
That's basically the same as being self employed, if nobody wants you to do building work for them anymore, you're fucked in the same way.
sure, but it explains to some extent why streamers/ gaming celebs like TotalB and other act so entitled when the topic comes up. Sure, it's their livelihood.On the other hand, it also means we, as a community, shouldn't rely on their information solely when we make up our minds about this subject, because naturally there is some bias on their side.
Hey guys, I started making a site that archives live streaming stats from various platforms, including Twitch of course. We provide daily, weekly and monthly general scoreboards, and also the top streamers for each game. ie SC2 HotS for March 2015: http://gamoloco.com/game.php?n=StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm&period=monthly
On April 22 2015 21:40 Incolas wrote: Hey guys, I started making a site that archives live streaming stats from various platforms, including Twitch of course. We provide daily, weekly and monthly general scoreboards, and also the top streamers for each game. ie SC2 HotS for March 2015: http://gamoloco.com/game.php?n=StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm&period=monthly
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
This is maybe 60% envy and 40% logic speaking.
Let's break down what you just said.
Your opinion of what is a job is entirely irrelevant to the bank.
It's not. Because when the majority of guys decides, your job is not a real job and what you do shouldn't be supported financially the way it is, you don't have a job anymore. And with you i don't mean you personal but your average streaming celebrity. As for the argument: Of course, what you do can be real hard work. If it truly is, is a thing we can't know, but it seems likely to me, you have plenty to do.
That's basically the same as being self employed, if nobody wants you to do building work for them anymore, you're fucked in the same way.
sure, but it explains to some extent why streamers/ gaming celebs like TotalB and other act so entitled when the topic comes up. Sure, it's their livelihood.On the other hand, it also means we, as a community, shouldn't rely on their information solely when we make up our minds about this subject, because naturally there is some bias on their side.
Well, I wouldn't lose sleep over the definition of real job, regular income is sufficient for any bank with enough evidence. I will say though, it doesn't need to be jealously, it's a perfectly valid (highly subjective) argument in the same way that why does a professional footballer get paid hundreds of times more than a nurse for kicking a ball around a field for a living.
Regarding community toxicity. I think it's prevalent on the internet, a lot more so on games. I think it's easily avoidable though, just don't reply to the toxicity.
According to some people here, the entire entertainment industry consists of a lot of "not real jobs". Basically everyone who does something for a living he really enjoys. Nowadays almost every hobby can in some way become a job and it's great that the same goes for computergames as well!
On April 22 2015 22:26 Swisslink wrote: According to some people here, the entire entertainment industry consists of a lot of "not real jobs". Basically everyone who does something for a living he really enjoys. Nowadays almost every hobby can in some way become a job and it's great that the same goes for computergames as well!
Anything can be a real job. The whole idea of "real" vs. "fake" jobs is stupid.
That said, there is a very real difference between playing/streaming video games/playing music/acting/play a sport as a profession vs. doing an office job/being a cop/firefighter/teacher/etc. as a job.
As one person pointed out, the first group gets to do a hobby/passion that they've wanted to do all their life and can/enjoy doing in their downtime and make money off of it.
Enjoying your job isn't a very good line to draw. However, this "hobby" aspect is a much better one. I can't and don't come home and work as a nurse/EMT as a hobby. A factory worker can't/'doesn't want to come home and create whatever as a hobby. This list could go on and on, but you see my point. There's a very big difference between "normal" jobs, where someone has to do something they wouldn't do if they weren't paid for it, and this "other" class of jobs, where someone turns a lifelong passion and hobby into a means of income.
Is one more legitimate than the other? No. If you are good enough to make money off of a hobby/passion, then more power to you. That's a dream that pretty much everyone has. However, if you are the type of person that makes money this way, and yet is still spoiled enough to ever compare your job to what a teacher, cop, firefighter, soldier, factory worker, office worker, or any number of other jobs does, you need to be smacked. They are worlds apart and if you can't see the difference between making money off of what is essentially a hobby and making money doing something you would never do if you weren't paid to do it, then you have some self-reflection to do.
While Destiny puts a ton of hard work and long hours into what he does, pretty much every single profession that I listed (and many more) put in far more hours for far less money while doing something that they wouldn't actually do for fun to boot. Doing something like this is just like being privileged; we all wish we grew up with a ton of money and opportunities. We all want our kids to have that. However, there's a difference between being privileged and spoiled. It's totally fine to have a lot of privilege. But you need to appreciate it, and when you don't, it's a problem.
We all wish we could play video games for a living. We all wish the best to those than can. But if you do and don't appreciate the incredibly privileged position you're in, then you need a reality check.
As for respect, well, there are different kinds of respect. I can respect anyone that is good at their job for having that skill. However, I don't necessarily respect that person for doing that thing. These streamers are just like artists/entertainers/athletes/etc. They entertain and bring culture to us. It's not a matter of "I don't respect anyone that does X", it's "I don't respect people that do X in a certain way". I don't have a lot of respect for trashy entertainers who have no skill but just make money off of laziness, fads, and stupidity. Similarly, I don't have respect for many private defense attorneys, Wall Street bankers, corporate big-wigs, lobbyists, etc. and yet these would be considered "normal" jobs. There's context to every person's job, so it's a little extreme to just say you don't respect streamers as a whole. Streamers are a diverse group of people. Some of them work hard and put out quality content. Others are lazy and put out crap and yet make all kinds of money by being stupid.
On April 22 2015 21:40 Incolas wrote: Hey guys, I started making a site that archives live streaming stats from various platforms, including Twitch of course. We provide daily, weekly and monthly general scoreboards, and also the top streamers for each game. ie SC2 HotS for March 2015: http://gamoloco.com/game.php?n=StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm&period=monthly
This is one of the oddest post I've seen in a while. I always enjoy seeing pro lurker (est. 2002), pop up every now and then. Based on your posting stats, you are almost considered active!
If streaming was easy and free money then everyone would do it. Truth is it takes hard work and a certain talent. That is why there are so few high profile celebrity streamers. Just like any other entertainment medium.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''.
posting this crap towards tb is toxic,I hope the irony isn't lost on you
On April 22 2015 23:13 Tenks wrote: If streaming was easy and free money then everyone would do it. Truth is it takes hard work and a certain talent. That is why there are so few high profile celebrity streamers. Just like any other entertainment medium.
This is true. Also, it really helped if you started streaming 5 years ago, when there was basicly no competition.. No way you are going to be a top streamer anytime soon if you start now. The one exception being, if you're a hot girl showing some skin (I don't mean to be condescending towards women streaming with actual good content).
Reading "Destiny breaks down" left me waiting for an epic video or chatlog of Destiny losing it for real and insulting everyone from Putin to Pinkie pie. Disappointing.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
This is maybe 60% envy and 40% logic speaking.
You don't have to be mining coal for it to be a real job, that's a ridiculous attitude.
And that's certainly not mine. My job is quite similar to that of a streamer. I sit around either in a bar or at tourists locations and play music. I'm at the mercy of people enjoying what I do, just that they pay me for it instead of Twitch or Youtube paying me for it. The thing is, if I don't put in work, if I just fiddle around, if I play things I like instead of things people want to hear, I get paid far less. So my "wage" is a result of effort put in, which is the same for Destiny. And I think there should be a distinction. Not everyone who falls ass-backwards into money has actually earned it.
Maybe just try to be happy for the person that falls into money
Hope they do good things with it.
You health and quality of life will be MUCH better if you are happy for them instead of resentful.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''.
posting this crap towards tb is toxic,I hope the irony isn't lost on you
On April 22 2015 22:26 Swisslink wrote: According to some people here, the entire entertainment industry consists of a lot of "not real jobs". Basically everyone who does something for a living he really enjoys. Nowadays almost every hobby can in some way become a job and it's great that the same goes for computergames as well!
Anything can be a real job. The whole idea of "real" vs. "fake" jobs is stupid.
That said, there is a very real difference between playing/streaming video games/playing music/acting/play a sport as a profession vs. doing an office job/being a cop/firefighter/teacher/etc. as a job.
As one person pointed out, the first group gets to do a hobby/passion that they've wanted to do all their life and can/enjoy doing in their downtime and make money off of it.
Enjoying your job isn't a very good line to draw. However, this "hobby" aspect is a much better one. I can't and don't come home and work as a nurse/EMT as a hobby. A factory worker can't/'doesn't want to come home and create whatever as a hobby. This list could go on and on, but you see my point. There's a very big difference between "normal" jobs, where someone has to do something they wouldn't do if they weren't paid for it, and this "other" class of jobs, where someone turns a lifelong passion and hobby into a means of income.
Is one more legitimate than the other? No. If you are good enough to make money off of a hobby/passion, then more power to you. That's a dream that pretty much everyone has. However, if you are the type of person that makes money this way, and yet is still spoiled enough to ever compare your job to what a teacher, cop, firefighter, soldier, factory worker, office worker, or any number of other jobs does, you need to be smacked. They are worlds apart and if you can't see the difference between making money off of what is essentially a hobby and making money doing something you would never do if you weren't paid to do it, then you have some self-reflection to do.
While Destiny puts a ton of hard work and long hours into what he does, pretty much every single profession that I listed (and many more) put in far more hours for far less money while doing something that they wouldn't actually do for fun to boot. Doing something like this is just like being privileged; we all wish we grew up with a ton of money and opportunities. We all want our kids to have that. However, there's a difference between being privileged and spoiled. It's totally fine to have a lot of privilege. But you need to appreciate it, and when you don't, it's a problem.
We all wish we could play video games for a living. We all wish the best to those than can. But if you do and don't appreciate the incredibly privileged position you're in, then you need a reality check.
Of course, there are different kinds of jobs. In some jobs you save people's lives. In other jobs you make them laugh. The first ones are more important and I doubt anyone would disagree. The world without firefighters/doctors/teachers would Be fucked up.
But why should the second field appreciate being "privileged"? And why are they even privileged? They hadn't become famous overnight. They WORKED to build up their status as a celeb. The same way a journalist had to work (... with lots of barely paid internships *cough* ) to become a journalist. Or an entertainer had to work to gain popularity. Are they privileged? I wouldn't say so, tbh. The only privilege a comedian (for example) has, is that he is... well... a funny person.
I highly doubt that any streamers parents were happy about the choices of their children to go for this kind of career. And even less do I think that these streamers were born into being a streamer. Or at least not more than any other person has been born into their job. (Meaning: If your parents got a higher degree, your chances to get there aren't too bad neither. But you still got to work to get there.) and it was even a considerable risk to invest as much time as they did into something that might not turn out well.
The only celebs I got 0 respect for are all these kinds of reality stars which are famous for being... famous... or stupid... But most of those haven't really worked to get into their position. They were born into it. THESE celebs are privileged, not the people we're talking about here.
TotalBiscuit, can you confirm or deny these numbers?
I can do neither, because Socialblades information is ridiculously inaccurate. It might as well be saying "well he's either making $1 or a million dollars, or anything in between". Those numbers are based on guesswork CPMs, I mean fuck, look at that variance "$2.6K - $42K" a month. Am I earning somewhere between that? Yes. Will I tell you what? No, because I am contractually obligated not to.
Why do they contractually obligate people not to disclose that stuff? And how does Socialblade get their data?
Socialblade guesses, they have no actual financial data. Only their viewcount data is accurate because that's public information. I don't know why we are contractually obligated note to disclose, only that we are.
I think it's because youtube is having problems with other services trying to poach large names, if they could accurately calculate your earnings they'd probably have a better shot at poaching. (Nice to see you posting here more often)
On April 22 2015 22:26 Swisslink wrote: According to some people here, the entire entertainment industry consists of a lot of "not real jobs". Basically everyone who does something for a living he really enjoys. Nowadays almost every hobby can in some way become a job and it's great that the same goes for computergames as well!
Anything can be a real job. The whole idea of "real" vs. "fake" jobs is stupid.
That said, there is a very real difference between playing/streaming video games/playing music/acting/play a sport as a profession vs. doing an office job/being a cop/firefighter/teacher/etc. as a job.
As one person pointed out, the first group gets to do a hobby/passion that they've wanted to do all their life and can/enjoy doing in their downtime and make money off of it.
Enjoying your job isn't a very good line to draw. However, this "hobby" aspect is a much better one. I can't and don't come home and work as a nurse/EMT as a hobby. A factory worker can't/'doesn't want to come home and create whatever as a hobby. This list could go on and on, but you see my point. There's a very big difference between "normal" jobs, where someone has to do something they wouldn't do if they weren't paid for it, and this "other" class of jobs, where someone turns a lifelong passion and hobby into a means of income.
Is one more legitimate than the other? No. If you are good enough to make money off of a hobby/passion, then more power to you. That's a dream that pretty much everyone has. However, if you are the type of person that makes money this way, and yet is still spoiled enough to ever compare your job to what a teacher, cop, firefighter, soldier, factory worker, office worker, or any number of other jobs does, you need to be smacked. They are worlds apart and if you can't see the difference between making money off of what is essentially a hobby and making money doing something you would never do if you weren't paid to do it, then you have some self-reflection to do.
While Destiny puts a ton of hard work and long hours into what he does, pretty much every single profession that I listed (and many more) put in far more hours for far less money while doing something that they wouldn't actually do for fun to boot. Doing something like this is just like being privileged; we all wish we grew up with a ton of money and opportunities. We all want our kids to have that. However, there's a difference between being privileged and spoiled. It's totally fine to have a lot of privilege. But you need to appreciate it, and when you don't, it's a problem.
We all wish we could play video games for a living. We all wish the best to those than can. But if you do and don't appreciate the incredibly privileged position you're in, then you need a reality check.
Of course, there are different kinds of jobs. In some jobs you save people's lives. In other jobs you make them laugh. The first ones are more important and I doubt anyone would disagree. The world without firefighters/doctors/teachers would Be fucked up.
But why should the second field appreciate being "privileged"? And why are they even privileged? They hadn't become famous overnight. They WORKED to build up their status as a celeb. The same way a journalist had to work (... with lots of barely paid internships *cough* ) to become a journalist. Or an entertainer had to work to gain popularity. Are they privileged? I wouldn't say so, tbh. The only privilege a comedian (for example) has, is that he is... well... a funny person.
I highly doubt that any streamers parents were happy about the choices of their children to go for this kind of career. And even less do I think that these streamers were born into being a streamer. Or at least not more than any other person has been born into their job. (Meaning: If your parents got a higher degree, your chances to get there aren't too bad neither. But you still got to work to get there.) and it was even a considerable risk to invest as much time as they did into something that might not turn out well.
The only celebs I got 0 respect for are all these kinds of reality stars which are famous for being... famous... or stupid... But most of those haven't really worked to get into their position. They were born into it. THESE celebs are privileged, not the people we're talking about here.
They're privileged because they make money off of a hobby.
Yes, they put hard work into it. No it didn't happen overnight. However, nothing is ever purely a product of your hard work. That's a really selfish and naive way to look at the world. It's a combination of hard work, luck, circumstances, etc. The fact is that, for a streamer, there were a wide array of circumstances (many not under his/her control) that led that person to be able to make a living off of his/her hobby. You need a particular set of circumstances that allow you to get to that position in the first place.
Appreciate it. Love it. Work hard at it. But don't insult people by comparing your job to theirs and saying, "I work just as hard! my job is just as bad!"
This isn't about one job not being as legitimate as the other. As I've said, all jobs are legitimate. It's about simply appreciating your job and your position in the world, and appreciating what others have to do as well.
Privilege is not automatically a bad thing. Like I said, we all wish we were privileged growing up. We all want our kids to be privileged when they are growing up. However, privilege becomes bad when you don't appreciate it; that's when you start to just be a spoiled brat.
As the Internet continues to grow people like Destiny and other Youtubers and streamers will only increase in number. Most of the detractors who say it isn't a real job, I feel it is jealousy at not being able to do what they want, play video games, entertain and earn a decent income out of it. If you earn money that is legally acquired it's a real job, simple as it gets. It isn't an easy job streaming, being entertaining is a skill few have, let alone streaming for long hours which can get exhausting combined with staring at a screen without stretching. Eventually people will just have to accept this as the new form of entertainment and entertainers need money, what really makes video game streaming different from an actor or musician in the entertainment sense, not a whole lot.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''.
I don't have a clue who you are, but what better way to demonstrate community toxicity than have a guy hold a 5 year grudge over being blocked from a Youtube channel and not making a single relevant contribution to the thread, instead attacking a caster and team owner? What a ridiculous statement "hey you blocked me 5 years ago on your Youtube channel so you're the cause of community toxicity!". Haha ok, sure yes, banning a random guy from a Youtube channel 5 years ago is why people on Reddit attacked a Patreon effort from Lycangrope. Also it probably had something to do with the Space Lizards that have infiltrated the highest levels of government right?
On April 23 2015 01:59 Deathstar wrote: I don't get people paying for a free product. You can watch any stream for free, and yet people donate? Can someone explain this?
You can either donate just because you think the streamer deserves money or you can subscribe and get some sort of reward for it. Some streamers play some games with subs only or make the chat sub-only or make giveaways etc.
But most of the revenue of the streamers comes from the ads anyways I think: So twitch or whatever stream-service they use gets paid for the ads on their streams and they give a certain amount of that to the streamers based on the amount of viewers they get and how often they play the ads etc.
Why do they do this? Because streamers would just switch to another streaming-service that pays them more - as we see in china or korea for example: There they have much more streaming-services and they pay the top-streamers ridiculous amounts of money to stay on their streaming-platform.
TotalBiscuit, can you confirm or deny these numbers?
I can do neither, because Socialblades information is ridiculously inaccurate. It might as well be saying "well he's either making $1 or a million dollars, or anything in between". Those numbers are based on guesswork CPMs, I mean fuck, look at that variance "$2.6K - $42K" a month. Am I earning somewhere between that? Yes. Will I tell you what? No, because I am contractually obligated not to.
Why do they contractually obligate people not to disclose that stuff? And how does Socialblade get their data?
Socialblade guesses, they have no actual financial data. Only their viewcount data is accurate because that's public information. I don't know why we are contractually obligated note to disclose, only that we are.
Well that's ..... kind of weird. But in companies salaries are normally confidential too (You can't ask a company to say how much this guy or this guy is paid) People tell but that's because they are not contractually obliged to shut their mouth :p. In anyway if you are between those two numbers things are going well for you and it's well deserved Sir Biscuit.
Wait ... we are on the internet. YOU TOPHAT MADMAN IS EARNING MORE THAN ME ! I HATE YOU DISPISE YOU AND HOPE THAT WEIRD THING HAPPENS TO YOUR CAT ! (did i do this right ?) :p
No one talks like that and I thought TB hated strawman and circle jerks. Normal people get mad at internet personalities because often they get paid to express a personality or opinion that they only get away with due to their popularity and not any specific merit or logical argument, same with any position of privilege really. Sure there's the vocal minority that post jealous hateful comments because they don't realize the amount of work going into running a successful <anything>, but being an internet personality means you are deriving your revenue explicitly from that mass media exposure, so it has all the benefits and vices of existing celebrity culture.
I'm sure TB doesn't see himself as that and is attempting to interject some quality into his work (I would know, I've followed him since Blue Plz and EPIC with kikijiki (where is that dude nowadays any ways)), but that's what alot of people see internet / streaming / youtube personalities as, just another format of the horrible celebrity culture that they could do with out but is getting constantly barraged with everywhere they go.
On April 23 2015 01:59 Deathstar wrote: I don't get people paying for a free product. You can watch any stream for free, and yet people donate? Can someone explain this?
You can either donate just because you think the streamer deserves money or you can subscribe and get some sort of reward for it. Some streamers play some games with subs only or make the chat sub-only or make giveaways etc.
But most of the revenue of the streamers comes from the ads anyways I think: So twitch or whatever stream-service they use gets paid for the ads on their streams and they give a certain amount of that to the streamers based on the amount of viewers they get and how often they play the ads etc.
Why do they do this? Because streamers would just switch to another streaming-service that pays them more - as we see in china or korea for example: There they have much more streaming-services and they pay the top-streamers ridiculous amounts of money to stay on their streaming-platform.
I thought the hierarchy of income source, in general for streamers on twitch, was 1. donations 2. subs 3. ads
On April 22 2015 17:07 Pandemona wrote: Yeah Twitch money is insane, personalities like Sodapoppin etc who are hitting the 6k + subscribers is just unreal. Or when you watch a stream and see like 20 subs a day you just think wow.
Well yes and no, if you have 2/3/4/5k suscribers of course you have a lot of money but ads revenue is not that big at all.
On April 23 2015 01:59 Deathstar wrote: I don't get people paying for a free product. You can watch any stream for free, and yet people donate? Can someone explain this?
You can either donate just because you think the streamer deserves money or you can subscribe and get some sort of reward for it. Some streamers play some games with subs only or make the chat sub-only or make giveaways etc.
But most of the revenue of the streamers comes from the ads anyways I think: So twitch or whatever stream-service they use gets paid for the ads on their streams and they give a certain amount of that to the streamers based on the amount of viewers they get and how often they play the ads etc.
Why do they do this? Because streamers would just switch to another streaming-service that pays them more - as we see in china or korea for example: There they have much more streaming-services and they pay the top-streamers ridiculous amounts of money to stay on their streaming-platform.
It depends if people can sub to your channel or not, if they can and you are a big streamer, fulltime, ads revenue is not going to be the best revenue with your stream.
On April 23 2015 01:59 Deathstar wrote: I don't get people paying for a free product. You can watch any stream for free, and yet people donate? Can someone explain this?
Because ad revenue is pretty bad on twitch. Between the ads just plain not paying very much and rampant ad block streamers can't really be supported by ads alone. Which is why twitch then introduced subscription where you can agree to pay the streamer $5/mo (or whatever) and twitch takes half of that as well. That way the streamer can have a more guaranteed income source instead of very unreliable ad income.
So to circle back on this. I am no longer paying the streamer with my time and eyes. My ads are worth pretty much nothing to them. If I enjoy the stream and want to see it in the future I can support them financially so they have the ability to stream via either direct donation or through subscription. It comes down to appreciating the work someone has done and wanting to reward them. Not everyone feels the same and no one should feel forced to sub or donate but for others a large chunk of their entertainment is comprised of watching streamers so it makes sense to support that entertainment medium.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''.
posting this crap towards tb is toxic,I hope the irony isn't lost on you
Constructive criticism isn't toxic.
Oh come off it, we both know that wasn't constructive criticism.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
Well played, sir. Jealousy is a cruel mistress and there will always be those that can not fathom making money doing something they love. I think we're getting to that point though where online entertainers are surpassing television. Not only is the potential fan-base so much more widespread but it is cheaper to produce. I imagine Destiny's overhead is tiny.
I had been streaming on and off for sometime probably in the range of 75-150 viewers average, with peaks of maybe 250.(no sub button or anything) As joke / social experiment about 18months ago I had my girlfriend (thicker girl, cute face, F-cups, bit of cleavage but nothing to bad just causal everyday wear) chat up the webcam while I was playing games (She was on her computers just facebooking or whatever and chatting with the viewers, but it was assumed she was playing the games. She was asked to neither confirm or deny being the player for the sake of the test) within an hour she had nearly 1k viewers and was getting begged to throw up a donation link, amazon wishlist or anything so they could just throw money at her. By 2hours she peaked at around 1.6k viewers, had her own hate group as well as white knights going at it in chat. Somehow people had managed to get her facebook info and she got a dozen or so friend requests and even a few text messages from one guy which really creeped her out so we ended it.
On April 23 2015 03:02 NotSorry wrote: I had been streaming on and off for sometime probably in the range of 75-150 viewers average, with peaks of maybe 250.(no sub button or anything) As joke / social experiment about 18months ago I had my girlfriend (thicker girl, cute face, F-cups, bit of cleavage but nothing to bad just causal everyday wear) chat up the webcam while I was playing games (She was on her computers just facebooking or whatever and chatting with the viewers, but it was assumed she was playing the games. She was asked to neither confirm or deny being the player for the sake of the test) within an hour she had nearly 1k viewers and was getting begged to throw up a donation link, amazon wishlist or anything so they could just throw money at her. By 2hours she peaked at around 1.6k viewers, had her own hate group as well as white knights going at it in chat. Somehow people had managed to get her facebook info and she got a dozen or so friend requests and even a few text messages from one guy which really creeped her out so we ended it.
That amazes me even while I'm somehow not so surprised.
Yeah girls getting donations don't surprise me. It's just a lower level form of webcam girls. I don't know why guys get donations though. I don't buy the other guy's explanation of just wanting to help or something.
Well played, sir. Jealousy is a cruel mistress and there will always be those that can not fathom making money doing something they love. I think we're getting to that point though where online entertainers are surpassing television. Not only is the potential fan-base so much more widespread but it is cheaper to produce. I imagine Destiny's overhead is tiny.
It's catering to a niche that TV companies cannot. Gaming is the most popular entertainment industry in the world and yet TV and old media dont cater to it one little bit. So up sprung the homegrown content and sites like Twitch and Youtube helped spread it worldwide. There's no way for old media to catch up now, the obvious desire for this longform content has been there for ages and is now being fulfilled by independent content creators. Low budget, low production value, but that doesnt matter to the people who watch.
Because ad revenue is pretty bad on twitch. Between the ads just plain not paying very much and rampant ad block streamers can't really be supported by ads alone. Which is why twitch then introduced subscription where you can agree to pay the streamer $5/mo (or whatever) and twitch takes half of that as well. That way the streamer can have a more guaranteed income source instead of very unreliable ad income.
Yup. Adblocking and poor first quarter CPM has made running ads almost pointless. There are streams where I just dont even bother, because I know its not worth it. Subs on the other hand, that's constant income if you can keep em and provide a good service. Subs make our Twitch channel 20x more revenue than ads do on a month to month basis.
Yeah girls getting donations don't surprise me. It's just a lower level form of webcam girls. I don't know why guys get donations though. I don't buy the other guy's explanation of just wanting to help or something.
Why, what other logical explanation can there be? They donate because they like the content, its not exactly a hard concept to fathom
On April 23 2015 03:02 NotSorry wrote: I had been streaming on and off for sometime probably in the range of 75-150 viewers average, with peaks of maybe 250.(no sub button or anything) As joke / social experiment about 18months ago I had my girlfriend (thicker girl, cute face, F-cups, bit of cleavage but nothing to bad just causal everyday wear) chat up the webcam while I was playing games (She was on her computers just facebooking or whatever and chatting with the viewers, but it was assumed she was playing the games. She was asked to neither confirm or deny being the player for the sake of the test) within an hour she had nearly 1k viewers and was getting begged to throw up a donation link, amazon wishlist or anything so they could just throw money at her. By 2hours she peaked at around 1.6k viewers, had her own hate group as well as white knights going at it in chat. Somehow people had managed to get her facebook info and she got a dozen or so friend requests and even a few text messages from one guy which really creeped her out so we ended it.
I hate the 'not a real job' attitude. By the definition used to justify this then no actor, singer or fighter has a real job. Why do you have to explain to these people that providing entertainment is just as much a real job as someone like me pushing buttons to develop software?
Good luck to these people, I enjoy watching Naniwa, Nathanias, Total Biscuit (and sometimes even Avilo to watch him rage).
I have no doubt that those who are really successful streamers work way harder than I do in my 9-5 job - although they probably have more fun most days too. I really could never do it as so many of the people (at least that I have followed over the years) never seem to take a vacation or stop producing content for more than a weekend - which makes sense. If you need subscribers and constant revenue, you can't really handle taking a break for two weeks to go off on a vacation for fear that you will lose so much of your base when you return. That is something I could never give up. The ones who work hard and are really successful, whether or not I like their content, I have to respect because of the sheer number of hours they have to put in to keep themselves relevant and top-of-mind. If I left my job for a month of vacation and came back, I'd have some rebuilding to do to regain my level of influence, but I imagine that if most streamers stopped for a month they would be dead.
It might look really fun, but a job it most certainly is. And a job I could never do (and never really want to do). Just because it looks fun doesn't mean it isn't a job.
@'not real job' Streaming seems to be a little like a professional sports (soccer, football, tennis etc.) It might pay good (or even extremly good), but where do you go after it's done (which seems to be before 30 for most players/streamers). A lot of people can probably become "media"-personalities but what happens to players/streamers like dragon, protech, whitera etc. From one perspective I do envy their lifestyle but from another I feel it is a ride with no light at the end of the tunnel.
I dunno I just dunno. Paying for something free blows my mind. But it's the model that the streaming system is based on so it works I guess. It's just... lol
On April 23 2015 03:51 BjoernK wrote: @'not real job' Streaming seems to be a little like a professional sports (soccer, football, tennis etc.) It might pay good (or even extremly good), but where do you go after it's done (which seems to be before 30 for most players/streamers). A lot of people can probably become "media"-personalities but what happens to players/streamers like dragon, protech, whitera etc. From one perspective I do envy their lifestyle but from another I feel it is a ride with no light at the end of the tunnel.
A lot of the more successful players have studied before, during or after their careers, life isn't over after 30.
On April 23 2015 03:55 Doodsmack wrote: AdBlock is morally reprehensible.
"Morally"? Give me a break. If anything the internet is the most democratic system available. Many people have voted and they have agreed they'd rather not watch ads even if that means the person providing the content gets no money. It is a reality. Complaining will do nothing. That is why any streamer these days (as opposed to say when WoL beta first started) has a donation link and a sub link. Because that is how the internet has determined that is how they want to support the streamer.
DDOS'ing a streamer? Morally reprehensible. Doxxing a personality or someone they have on stream? Morally reprehensible. AdBlock? One of these isn't like the other.
On April 23 2015 03:58 Deathstar wrote: I dunno I just dunno. Paying for something free blows my mind. But it's the model that the streaming system is based on so it works I guess. It's just... lol
So you are blown away when someone give money to a street performer that plays music, dance or whatever?
On April 23 2015 03:55 Doodsmack wrote: AdBlock is morally reprehensible.
"Morally"? Give me a break. If anything the internet is the most democratic system available. Many people have voted and they have agreed they'd rather not watch ads even if that means the person providing the content gets no money. It is a reality. Complaining will do nothing. That is why any streamer these days (as opposed to say when WoL beta first started) has a donation link and a sub link. Because that is how the internet has determined that is how they want to support the streamer.
DDOS'ing a streamer? Morally reprehensible. Doxxing a personality or someone they have on stream? Morally reprehensible. AdBlock? One of these isn't like the other.
From what I have seen the majority of people don't mind watching fair amount of ads to watch a free video, it's all the people/sites that abuse it that ruin it for everyone else. You can only have so many 30 minute ads, ads that play sounds when you open a website or take up half the fucking screen before you get so tired off it you just block everything. Not to mention all the preroll ads that makes browsing videos a pain in the ass.
Yes, they put hard work into it. No it didn't happen overnight. However, nothing is ever purely a product of your hard work. That's a really selfish and naive way to look at the world. It's a combination of hard work, luck, circumstances, etc.
"I am a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it." - Thomas Jefferson
People underestimate the work that some streamers put on their channels, there are many that can make a living by just playing but it's not the majority, and even if it were, when people start with close minded statements like "it's not a real job" it's pretty clear that jealousy has taken its toll.
Gaming is the number 1 entertainment industry right now and some are just "taking advantage" from big entertainment corporations who don't realize this and act on it, so good for them, the result is that we've begun to see more professional streams coming from just a guy who's not just playing but looking forward into building a sustainable business model for themselves, which is the very essence of entreprenurial spirit that has created and improved industries for many years.
So let's just end this jealousy and appreciate the work that's been done by streamers, donate, subscribe or just support if you feel like it and don't be salty if they win more money than other people in different industries.
On April 23 2015 03:51 BjoernK wrote: @'not real job' Streaming seems to be a little like a professional sports (soccer, football, tennis etc.) It might pay good (or even extremly good), but where do you go after it's done (which seems to be before 30 for most players/streamers). A lot of people can probably become "media"-personalities but what happens to players/streamers like dragon, protech, whitera etc. From one perspective I do envy their lifestyle but from another I feel it is a ride with no light at the end of the tunnel.
A lot of the more successful players have studied before, during or after their careers, life isn't over after 30.
Yes there are great examples of players who are doing it "right". Stephano, Polt etc. come to mind. But I believe there is also a large amount of players whose life would probably play out in a better way if they chose a "normal" life. Am I wrong about a lot of Korean players not even having a high school diploma (really not sure)?
On April 23 2015 03:58 Deathstar wrote: I dunno I just dunno. Paying for something free blows my mind. But it's the model that the streaming system is based on so it works I guess. It's just... lol
most streamers can't afford to stream full time without being paid. if they dont get paid, the content stops being produced. so the product isn't free in that sense. it's more like a pay-what-you-want model and the rich and generous are making the product free for everyone else. it's like a shop being based on the honor system, but in addition to that there are no asking prices. you take what you want and leave what you want. if you consider that free, then you dont really understand what's going on. if everyone considers it free, it ceases to exist, so it must not really be free
and a ton of donations that the popular streamers get are because there's a huge pop-up on stream announcing their donation and displaying a message they can attach to their donation. so they're not paying for the stream in general -- they're paying for the particular service of being a part of a stream with that announcement and their message
I bet it's an interesting process filing taxes as a professional streamer. I assume twitch sends all of the necessary documents but it seems like taking deductions would be more difficult, but i'm not tax accountant haha. Just curious I guess.
Yeah.... I remember Nathanias giving 20$ to Dragon, with the message to buy the girl he has been playing with recently some flowers. Really nice gesture from Nathanias making the whole stream aware of him.
Anybody who complains that streaming is "not a real job" fails to realize that that's the fucking point of your life - to find something you enjoy yet someone is willing to pay you for it. Anything else and you are just wasting a big chunk of your life.
On April 23 2015 01:59 Deathstar wrote: I don't get people paying for a free product. You can watch any stream for free, and yet people donate? Can someone explain this?
You can either donate just because you think the streamer deserves money or you can subscribe and get some sort of reward for it. Some streamers play some games with subs only or make the chat sub-only or make giveaways etc.
But most of the revenue of the streamers comes from the ads anyways I think: So twitch or whatever stream-service they use gets paid for the ads on their streams and they give a certain amount of that to the streamers based on the amount of viewers they get and how often they play the ads etc.
Why do they do this? Because streamers would just switch to another streaming-service that pays them more - as we see in china or korea for example: There they have much more streaming-services and they pay the top-streamers ridiculous amounts of money to stay on their streaming-platform.
I thought the hierarchy of income source, in general for streamers on twitch, was 1. donations 2. subs 3. ads
Ah okay, thats possible, my statement was based on assumptions and hear-say. ^^'
I would've never thought that the ads make up less thn donations and subs.... Well, I guess some other streaming-service just has to pay more than twitch. Maybe it's also because tons of ppl have ad-blocker and I see more and more streamers that show very little commercials (I don't use ad-blocker on twitch.... on TL neither btw. - so gimme a manner-cookie plz!)
I still think twitch makes a pretty buck off the streamers and they could easily afford to pay more, so twitch just needs competition. I mean, there are streamers that entertain as many or more ppl for hours a day than well-known actors and/or musicians etc.
And often, the put tons of effort into it and most gamers/pro's that are being watched, worked for years to be good enough to even get watched.
I still would like to see the numbers on how much they actually make from ads, subs and donations.
Is the community really becoming more toxic or are people just becoming more sensitive? As someone who has played sc on and off for the past 15 years and then sc2 since it came out, I clearly remember getting death threats throughout that entire time, like every 10th game or something. It doesn't seem any worse now than it has been before. Just lol and tell them to fuck off. To me the whole community is getting more toxic thing is just the same "kids these days are so much worse than back in my day". I could be wrong though.
I agree with what John Green had to say about this in his brother's AMA:
There are a bunch of problems with an advertising-based revenue model for me. Adblock is one of them, I guess, but the truth is that if you make stuff that people really care about and understand the value of, advertising is a terrible way to monetize it anyway, because most of what advertisers care about is eyeballs. They want to get their message to as many people as possible. So, like, they don't really care if I'm watching CSI or MinutePhysics as long as I'm learning that Tide is the very best laundry detergent available today. But of course my relationship with CSI is VERY DIFFERENT from my relationship with MinutePhysics. One is a stupid crime show I watch to relax and distract me; the other is a YouTube channel that changes the way I understand my life and the universe around me. One I watch; the other I LOVE. And with an advertising-driven model of content production, we get TONS of stuff that's watchable, but relatively little stuff that's AMAZINGLY AWESOME, because amazingly awesome stuff doesn't get monetized differently from watchable stuff. This is why I like the Patreon model: It says, "If you love this, don't count on advertising to support it. Support it directly so that creators can invest more in their work and make even more awesome stuff." We still need ads to make Crash Course sustainable, and I am grateful to advertisers who advertise on Crash Course and to people who turn off adblock for us. But the future I'm looking toward is much more a direct-support model than an advertising model.
I think Destiny is a great example of this as well, some people truly believe Destiny's content (and community I guess) is worth $40 a month. Having an ad-based system doesn't allow people to say, hey, this content is worth $20-40 a month for me and that's what I'll pay. Instead, if everyone turned off adblock, everyone would be paying a few cents (dollars at most) indirectly to Destiny no matter how much they enjoyed his content. So yeah, with content that can be pretty personal, like twitch and youtube, I think pay-what-you-want is superior to a solely ad-based or solely paywalled model, simply because people enjoy it to wildly different extents.
Don't forget that everybody has to pay taxes. Making $100k through Twitch doesn't equal $100k of income. Here in Germany you would have to pay 42% taxes with that range of income. In that case it would "only" be $58k per year. Like any professional sports players streamers have to collect and save as much money as possible during their active time, as they won't be able to stream their whole life. At least I don't think anybody is interested in watching a 60y old guy playing Starcraft 5 :D
On April 23 2015 05:00 CanadianSC wrote: Super sad to see small people outraged at a little success. Mr. Bonnel has a child to support as well - destiny fighting!~
This is the most amazing part. Destiny had the forethought and the balls to bet on himself when monetization of internet streaming was still a very new thing right after he had a kid. He quit his job and went all-in on this career path. I don't even watch Destiny nor do I really care for his entertainment style but I have to commend him for his brass balls.
On April 23 2015 05:06 TurboMaN wrote: Don't forget that everybody has to pay taxes. Making $100k through Twitch doesn't equal $100k of income. Here in Germany you would have to pay 42% taxes with that range of income. In that case it would "only" be $58k per year. Like any professional sports players streamers have to collect and save as much money as possible during their active time, as they won't be able to stream their whole life. At least I don't think anybody is interested in watching a 60y old guy playing Starcraft 5 :D
ROFL i'd totally cash out to watch a grumpy fuckin 50 year old destiny get mad at protoss, it'd be beyond hilarious if he kept some of his current personality
On April 23 2015 03:55 Doodsmack wrote: AdBlock is morally reprehensible.
"Morally"? Give me a break. If anything the internet is the most democratic system available. Many people have voted and they have agreed they'd rather not watch ads even if that means the person providing the content gets no money. It is a reality. Complaining will do nothing. That is why any streamer these days (as opposed to say when WoL beta first started) has a donation link and a sub link. Because that is how the internet has determined that is how they want to support the streamer.
DDOS'ing a streamer? Morally reprehensible. Doxxing a personality or someone they have on stream? Morally reprehensible. AdBlock? One of these isn't like the other.
Oh okay so because people want to do it, it's okay to do it. They just need to call it "democratic voting". Gotcha.
On April 23 2015 05:00 CanadianSC wrote: Super sad to see small people outraged at a little success. Mr. Bonnel has a child to support as well - destiny fighting!~
This is the most amazing part. Destiny had the forethought and the balls to bet on himself when monetization of internet streaming was still a very new thing right after he had a kid. He quit his job and went all-in on this career path. I don't even watch Destiny nor do I really care for his entertainment style but I have to commend him for his brass balls.
I like Destiny too but let's be real, he had 2000+ daily viewers when he quit his job and got to at least 3000 by the time his kid was born, and that was when CPM was much much higher and he could afford to live comfortably off ads alone.
On April 23 2015 05:00 CanadianSC wrote: Super sad to see small people outraged at a little success. Mr. Bonnel has a child to support as well - destiny fighting!~
This is the most amazing part. Destiny had the forethought and the balls to bet on himself when monetization of internet streaming was still a very new thing right after he had a kid. He quit his job and went all-in on this career path. I don't even watch Destiny nor do I really care for his entertainment style but I have to commend him for his brass balls.
I like Destiny too but let's be real, he had 2000+ daily viewers when he quit his job and got to at least 3000 by the time his kid was born, and that was when CPM was much much higher and he could afford to live comfortably off ads alone.
Yeah but he didn't know if it would last. It could just be a flash in the pan thing. I mean he just left his job as a carpet cleaner so it isn't like he reset his position on the corporate ladder or anything. And now that CPM sucks he has managed to stay current with how to make money off streaming. Which is now far different than when he started.
On April 23 2015 04:41 opisska wrote: Anybody who complains that streaming is "not a real job" fails to realize that that's the fucking point of your life - to find something you enjoy yet someone is willing to pay you for it. Anything else and you are just wasting a big chunk of your life.
If it pays, the it's a job. New jobs are always appearing on the market just like how old obsolete jobs disappear over time. People are just salty they arent getting paid to stream.
I love the fact that people can make a good living of this.
In a world where income is dictated by demand we unfortunately have a lot of jobs and people that are underpayed and a handful of people (entertainers, actors, musicians, managers) that get multiple times the amount of money some would see justified. This obviously creates a lot of jealousy, which is sad but also at least a tiny bit understandable.
To clarify I dont think Steven makes more money than he deserves. Obviously not. But I can at least understand the reasoning behind people being discontent with a few youtubers making millions a year.
For myself, my income and that of others has never been a topic I cared much about. I'd rather enjoy doing what I love (-Mathematics ) instead of wasting time hunting money (and or being envious of the rich).
Yes, they put hard work into it. No it didn't happen overnight. However, nothing is ever purely a product of your hard work. That's a really selfish and naive way to look at the world. It's a combination of hard work, luck, circumstances, etc.
"I am a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it." - Thomas Jefferson
People underestimate the work that some streamers put on their channels, there are many that can make a living by just playing but it's not the majority, and even if it were, when people start with close minded statements like "it's not a real job" it's pretty clear that jealousy has taken its toll.
Gaming is the number 1 entertainment industry right now and some are just "taking advantage" from big entertainment corporations who don't realize this and act on it, so good for them, the result is that we've begun to see more professional streams coming from just a guy who's not just playing but looking forward into building a sustainable business model for themselves, which is the very essence of entreprenurial spirit that has created and improved industries for many years.
So let's just end this jealousy and appreciate the work that's been done by streamers, donate, subscribe or just support if you feel like it and don't be salty if they win more money than other people in different industries.
Nothing I said would disagree with the fact that streamers put in a lot of hard work, and I have explicitly said that streaming is legitimate work.
On April 23 2015 03:15 Deathstar wrote: I don't know why guys get donations though. I don't buy the other guy's explanation of just wanting to help or something.
I think it has a lot to do with attention. Imagine these lonely guys living in their boring little town and suddenly they get this opportunity to get called out and thanked bei their superstar for everyone to hear with just a little donation or subscription. A lot of young kids are desperately looking for role models and friends out there, and these streams can give them the feeling of being accepted and welcomed by people they look up to.
It's kind of pathetic because the streamers will forget the donators name 10 secs after reading it, and they obviously don't know (and care) who is behind the name, but just that feeling these kids get of some little recognition is worth quite some pocket money for them.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
because no one does spreadsheets for fun or grows up as a hobbyist in a community of people who all enjoy playing with spreadsheets together and then later becomes a spreadsheet rockstar
Liking your job != no work is required to do your job. Regardless of if lots of people like it or not, playing starcraft for fun and streaming for a living are NOT the same thing. Sure, they are similar, so I'll give you another example: I like to do math. For me, it's fun. It's also something I earn money from. If I were doing it just for fun, I'd be doing it when I felt like it and I'd be doing *what* I felt like doing. When I'm actually trying to make money from it, I don't just get to do whatever I want, whenever I want. I have to work at things and work hard. It's exhausting. It's also math, which I love and it's also fun. The hard work doesn't make it not-fun and the fun doesn't make it not-hard work.
On April 23 2015 03:15 Deathstar wrote: I don't know why guys get donations though. I don't buy the other guy's explanation of just wanting to help or something.
I think it has a lot to do with attention. Imagine these lonely guys living in their boring little town and suddenly they get this opportunity to get called out and thanked bei their superstar for everyone to hear with just a little donation or subscription. A lot of young kids are desperately looking for role models and friends out there, and these streams can give them the feeling of being accepted and welcomed by people they look up to.
It's kind of pathetic because the streamers will forget the donators name 10 secs after reading it, and they obviously don't know (and care) who is behind the name, but just that feeling these kids get of some little recognition is worth quite some pocket money for them.
If your theory was correct then no one would make any money off Patreon or any other pay-what-you-want model that doesn't provide recognition.
On April 23 2015 03:15 Deathstar wrote: I don't know why guys get donations though. I don't buy the other guy's explanation of just wanting to help or something.
I think it has a lot to do with attention. Imagine these lonely guys living in their boring little town and suddenly they get this opportunity to get called out and thanked bei their superstar for everyone to hear with just a little donation or subscription. A lot of young kids are desperately looking for role models and friends out there, and these streams can give them the feeling of being accepted and welcomed by people they look up to.
It's kind of pathetic because the streamers will forget the donators name 10 secs after reading it, and they obviously don't know (and care) who is behind the name, but just that feeling these kids get of some little recognition is worth quite some pocket money for them.
If your theory was correct then no one would make any money off Patreon or any other pay-what-you-want model that doesn't provide recognition.
those usually don't make close as much to the big streams that call out donations. also streams that don't call out donations usually don't get many donations. if people would want to do it just to help, they wouldn't need all that fancy ("thank you soo much for contributing, buddy") stuff.
The exact numbers u get from the ad revenue isn't really new nor is the twitch sub money you get either. But yeah its really viable to stream full-time and earn a decent/good living if you have loads of viewers and a sub button.
Destiny is just smart getting subscribers thru his own website getting 95% of the cut and 5% takes paypal. That's just smart and i think most streamers should do this to get the money they work hard to earn.
People should learn from Lé Steven cause hes not dumb when it comes to marketing and business
LOL he also mentioned earlier "if you fake a twitter account with a girl on ur profile pic.. and starts asking stuff behind the scenes you will be given all the information needed... I'll bet money this is so easy to do.." end quote.
On April 23 2015 05:06 TurboMaN wrote: Don't forget that everybody has to pay taxes. Making $100k through Twitch doesn't equal $100k of income. Here in Germany you would have to pay 42% taxes with that range of income. In that case it would "only" be $58k per year. Like any professional sports players streamers have to collect and save as much money as possible during their active time, as they won't be able to stream their whole life. At least I don't think anybody is interested in watching a 60y old guy playing Starcraft 5 :D
ROFL i'd totally cash out to watch a grumpy fuckin 50 year old destiny get mad at protoss, it'd be beyond hilarious if he kept some of his current personality
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''.
I don't have a clue who you are, but what better way to demonstrate community toxicity than have a guy hold a 5 year grudge over being blocked from a Youtube channel and not making a single relevant contribution to the thread, instead attacking a caster and team owner? What a ridiculous statement "hey you blocked me 5 years ago on your Youtube channel so you're the cause of community toxicity!". Haha ok, sure yes, banning a random guy from a Youtube channel 5 years ago is why people on Reddit attacked a Patreon effort from Lycangrope. Also it probably had something to do with the Space Lizards that have infiltrated the highest levels of government right?
He's just pointing out that you're quite toxic too at times. Not that you're the "source". Don't strawman him.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''.
I don't have a clue who you are, but what better way to demonstrate community toxicity than have a guy hold a 5 year grudge over being blocked from a Youtube channel and not making a single relevant contribution to the thread, instead attacking a caster and team owner? What a ridiculous statement "hey you blocked me 5 years ago on your Youtube channel so you're the cause of community toxicity!". Haha ok, sure yes, banning a random guy from a Youtube channel 5 years ago is why people on Reddit attacked a Patreon effort from Lycangrope. Also it probably had something to do with the Space Lizards that have infiltrated the highest levels of government right?
He's just pointing out that you're quite toxic too at times. Not that you're the "source". Don't strawman him.
cue standard TB response: "when other people act like dicks they're human garbage, when i act like a dick it's because i'm right and everyone else deserves it"
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''.
I don't have a clue who you are, but what better way to demonstrate community toxicity than have a guy hold a 5 year grudge over being blocked from a Youtube channel and not making a single relevant contribution to the thread, instead attacking a caster and team owner? What a ridiculous statement "hey you blocked me 5 years ago on your Youtube channel so you're the cause of community toxicity!". Haha ok, sure yes, banning a random guy from a Youtube channel 5 years ago is why people on Reddit attacked a Patreon effort from Lycangrope. Also it probably had something to do with the Space Lizards that have infiltrated the highest levels of government right?
He's just pointing out that you're quite toxic too at times. Not that you're the "source". Don't strawman him.
cue standard TB response: "when other people act like dicks they're human garbage, when i act like a dick it's because i'm right and everyone else deserves it"
Actually I was going to go with "If you don't want to get stung, don't stick your dick in a beehive", but hey whatever you want.
Some community members seem to feel they have the right to shit on content creators but then act all surprised and hurt when they get a negative response.
Talk shit, get hit.
He's just pointing out that you're quite toxic too at times. Not that you're the "source". Don't strawman him.
Oh please, when your example of "being toxic sometimes" is getting banned from a Youtube channel 5 years ago, you know there's a grudge going on there and not honest criticism. If that's what he meant he'd have just said it, that guy has an axe to grind.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''.
I don't have a clue who you are, but what better way to demonstrate community toxicity than have a guy hold a 5 year grudge over being blocked from a Youtube channel and not making a single relevant contribution to the thread, instead attacking a caster and team owner? What a ridiculous statement "hey you blocked me 5 years ago on your Youtube channel so you're the cause of community toxicity!". Haha ok, sure yes, banning a random guy from a Youtube channel 5 years ago is why people on Reddit attacked a Patreon effort from Lycangrope. Also it probably had something to do with the Space Lizards that have infiltrated the highest levels of government right?
He's just pointing out that you're quite toxic too at times. Not that you're the "source". Don't strawman him.
cue standard TB response: "when other people act like dicks they're human garbage, when i act like a dick it's because i'm right and everyone else deserves it"
Let's be real here people being huge dicks to content creators doesn't deserve better.
The way you treat people ...you deserve to get the same treatment.
I don't get the whole "real job" discussion. The whole point of a job is to get money. If it is legal and you can convince people to pay you (enough to live from) to do it, it is a real job.
If you hate your job that does not make it more real, it just means that you are bad at making life decisions (At least in todays western society where people have a lot of choices in regards to what job they end up with)
i still can't fathom why anyone would donate real money to a guy whos playing video games who doesn't even know who you are. you basically just throw away money like that
On April 24 2015 06:35 Copymizer wrote: i still can't fathom why anyone would donate real money to a guy whos playing video games who doesn't even know who you are. you basically just throw away money like that
Why do people give money to the random guy on the street playing the guitar and singing along? Maybe because they simply enjoy watching them play and are entertained? There's a million things out there that you could argue are people "throwing their money away." People like spending money on things that entertain them, and by doing so, they're showing their appreciation and encouraging the person to entertain them even more.
Seems to me like, people are forgetting what streaming actually is. You are broadcasting unique material that people find entertaining. This would fall under the category of " Entertainment. " So twitch.tv streamers are working in the entertainment industry, no matter how you look at it.
I am a small time streamer, with usually less than 400 viewers. In 2014 I made $32,000. So yes, it's absolutely feasible to make a living fulltime broadcasting whatever you want. If you put in the time and the effort you will be rewarded eventually.
On April 24 2015 06:35 Copymizer wrote: i still can't fathom why anyone would donate real money to a guy whos playing video games who doesn't even know who you are. you basically just throw away money like that
First, its not actually throwing away money because they're buying perks, like playing with the streamer or getting chat privileges. You may not think these are worth the money of a subscription but those people do and its honestly not that hard to "fathom" simply because you don't value those things. I personally wouldn't buy a $100,000 car or a $5000 watch but to some people it's worth it, and I can totally understand why. To some people, spending $60 on a video game is insane but to you it makes total sense.
How do you feel if someone says to you "I still can't fathom why anyone would spend hours reading and posting on an internet forum about video games!!" because that is how someone who contributes to streamers views your comment.
Second, people have disposable income. some people have a lot of it. Donating $50 or $100 or $500 to get a reaction out of Destiny for someone that is very rich is probably the same as me buying a drink. If someone spends hours watching their favorite streamer how is that any different than paying $8 for a movie or $20 for drinks at a bar. It's just entertainment.
You might say, well those aren't actually free things and the stream is free!
Well, that's my third point, the stream ain't free. It needs subs and donations to exist. And people in general find it rewarding to support things they like. I bought a Liquid pennant when they were going to TI3 because I wanted to support the players. According to you its "throwing away money" if the players didn't know me but I felt pretty good about it and it was worth that money.
TLDR, people do things for reasons that are valuable and justifiable to them, why does it matter if you personally wouldn't do it?
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
Real job? Sure. But a way less soul-crushing kind of job than working a shitty fast food or customer service job. That's where the jealousy probably comes from. When they say it's not a real job, what they probably mean is that in order to be a real job, it has to destroy you from the inside.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
Real job? Sure. But a way less soul-crushing kind of job than working a shitty fast food or customer service job. That's where the jealousy probably comes from. When they say it's not a real job, what they probably mean is that in order to be a real job, it has to destroy you from the inside.
I think all of them would consider being a professional athlete or designing clothing or making movies or writing books is a real job and those are all dream jobs (for most). The disparity here is that a lot of people when they look at streamers they see something they believe they can do. It doesn't seem like its very hard on the surface, you just "play games" and people "watch and give you money."
What they don't realize is that its near impossible to maintain a high level of engagement / entertainment on a regular schedule for hours a day. That shit is insanely tiring and impossible to keep up for the average person. They also don't realize that the average person is deathly boring and can't be interesting or funny for 20 minutes when they are given time to prepare let alone for eight hours spontaneously every day. There are a lot of people who think, well those guys aren't special, its just luck and I could do that. That's why they don't think its a real job, because they don't understand the skill and work behind being a streamer.
Yeah, its probably easier than mowing lawns or mining coal. But like everything there is a supply and demand, and its rare to find people that can truly entertain like the top Twitch streamers can. There's nobody like them, and each game has just a few transcendent streamers. If you're comparing yourself to Destiny or Lyric you're talking about the top 0.001% of streamers. You draw a line at that percentile in anything, and those guys are going to be doing great. If the top streamers didn't make hundreds of thousands of dollars then the industry is probably worthless.
Anyone can work in a McDonalds or do an office job, and it seems like anyone can stream for a living. Thats why they're jealous of streamers and not of like, Lebron. Streaming seems so tantalizingly reachable because the skills required are deceptive and hidden and people believe deep down they have those skills. Until people realize that "shit, I can't do what those guys do, its too hard" and recognize being a streaming entertainer is a real skill that not everyone can have, they will always be haters.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
Real job? Sure. But a way less soul-crushing kind of job than working a shitty fast food or customer service job. That's where the jealousy probably comes from. When they say it's not a real job, what they probably mean is that in order to be a real job, it has to destroy you from the inside.
I think all of them would consider being a professional athlete or designing clothing or making movies or writing books is a real job and those are all dream jobs (for most). The disparity here is that a lot of people when they look at streamers they see something they believe they can do. It doesn't seem like its very hard on the surface, you just "play games" and people "watch and give you money."
What they don't realize is that its near impossible to maintain a high level of engagement / entertainment on a regular schedule for hours a day. That shit is insanely tiring and impossible to keep up for the average person. They also don't realize that the average person is deathly boring and can't be interesting or funny for 20 minutes when they are given time to prepare let alone for eight hours spontaneously every day. There are a lot of people who think, well those guys aren't special, its just luck and I could do that. That's why they don't think its a real job, because they don't understand the skill and work behind being a streamer.
Yeah, its probably easier than mowing lawns or mining coal. But like everything there is a supply and demand, and its rare to find people that can truly entertain like the top Twitch streamers can. There's nobody like them, and each game has just a few transcendent streamers. If you're comparing yourself to Destiny or Lyric you're talking about the top 0.001% of streamers. You draw a line at that percentile in anything, and those guys are going to be doing great. If the top streamers didn't make hundreds of thousands of dollars then the industry is probably worthless.
Anyone can work in a McDonalds or do an office job, and it seems like anyone can stream for a living. Thats why they're jealous of streamers and not of like, Lebron. Streaming seems so tantalizingly reachable because the skills required are deceptive and hidden and people believe deep down they have those skills. Until people realize that "shit, I can't do what those guys do, its too hard" and recognize being a streaming entertainer is a real skill that not everyone can have, they will always be haters.
I agree with you. I think a major aspect of the jealousy issue is probably the idea that what streamers do is fulfilling in some way, and even though it's a difficult job that takes skill and effort, it probably doesn't crush people's souls as much as having to put on a fake smile and treat complete assholes like kings, and apologize when they get pissed off at you for shit that isn't your fault, and having to worry about being fired if you don't show up to work every day, not being able to take a day off whenever you want to, etc. The idea of sacrificing 5 days a week at a job that makes you want to die and pays garbage wages is much less preferable to the idea of streaming video games.
On the other hand, if you have a phd and are working as a professor at a reputable university publishing your ideas and teaching people stuff, then you probably aren't going to be nearly as jealous of streamers. So I think the jealousy problem stems from aspects of one's own life rather than the life of the streamer.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
Real job? Sure. But a way less soul-crushing kind of job than working a shitty fast food or customer service job. That's where the jealousy probably comes from. When they say it's not a real job, what they probably mean is that in order to be a real job, it has to destroy you from the inside.
I think all of them would consider being a professional athlete or designing clothing or making movies or writing books is a real job and those are all dream jobs (for most). The disparity here is that a lot of people when they look at streamers they see something they believe they can do. It doesn't seem like its very hard on the surface, you just "play games" and people "watch and give you money."
What they don't realize is that its near impossible to maintain a high level of engagement / entertainment on a regular schedule for hours a day. That shit is insanely tiring and impossible to keep up for the average person. They also don't realize that the average person is deathly boring and can't be interesting or funny for 20 minutes when they are given time to prepare let alone for eight hours spontaneously every day. There are a lot of people who think, well those guys aren't special, its just luck and I could do that. That's why they don't think its a real job, because they don't understand the skill and work behind being a streamer.
Yeah, its probably easier than mowing lawns or mining coal. But like everything there is a supply and demand, and its rare to find people that can truly entertain like the top Twitch streamers can. There's nobody like them, and each game has just a few transcendent streamers. If you're comparing yourself to Destiny or Lyric you're talking about the top 0.001% of streamers. You draw a line at that percentile in anything, and those guys are going to be doing great. If the top streamers didn't make hundreds of thousands of dollars then the industry is probably worthless.
Anyone can work in a McDonalds or do an office job, and it seems like anyone can stream for a living. Thats why they're jealous of streamers and not of like, Lebron. Streaming seems so tantalizingly reachable because the skills required are deceptive and hidden and people believe deep down they have those skills. Until people realize that "shit, I can't do what those guys do, its too hard" and recognize being a streaming entertainer is a real skill that not everyone can have, they will always be haters.
The "problem" in all this is that streamers tend to be mainly popular based on their personality. It's not like a comedian who needs to work out a funny program and to be able to nail it on stage. It's also not like a musician who needs to put in hard hours at the studio to make a great record and to prepare for a world tour. It's also not like an athlete who really needs to live a life of constantly pushing himself. etc Don't fool yourself. There aren't many professions out there where you can be this lax and still collect that much cash just for having a "personality" and being buddy buddy with your viewers while playing some games. Even Destiny himself said that streaming is much much easier than anything else he could be doing for a living. And even his fanbase thinks that he is mostly lazy as fuck.
There is nothing wrong with streaming, but you make it out like some fine, sophisticated art only enabled by the sweat and tears of the brave people that put themselves out there, and for most streams that's simply not the case.
Oh please, when your example of "being toxic sometimes" is getting banned from a Youtube channel 5 years ago, you know there's a grudge going on there and not honest criticism.
One could point at "MorroWs thoughts on foreigners" thread, .. Talk shit, get hit is fair game - goes both ways. You're not better in any comprehensible way as the "pissants" you love to bash - you're just as toxic. With the difference that you're an internet-fame-person (whatever they're called) - so if you talk shit, people remember. Obviously better than you do, by the looks.
On the job discussion: of course it is a job. There's tons of jobs around that get you paid for doing stuff that isn't "manual labor". You don't need to shovel shit or build houses - streaming (and especially organising) is/can be a full time job.
On the other hand, i don't really understand the hatred and toxicity towards people that disagree with that opinion. A "smart" is a glorified shopping cart for me, yet i know many people who'd disagree on that telling me that it is very much a car. Or a pug/toypoodle not being a dog. And i disagree that it has to do with jealousy entirely. Of course, some, if not many people might be jealous - but for others it might simply come down to their opinions (mostly older crowd, my guess).
And jacking off Kanye or what the example was, that was an arrow to the knee. Prostitution is pretty much a job. A (proper) prostitute in a brothel pays taxes, insurance and whatnot the same way anyone else does. Apart from obviously being the oldest business in the world. (and perfectly legal in germany/uk, maybe EU as well)
On April 24 2015 06:35 Copymizer wrote: i still can't fathom why anyone would donate real money to a guy whos playing video games who doesn't even know who you are. you basically just throw away money like that
First, its not actually throwing away money because they're buying perks, like playing with the streamer or getting chat privileges. You may not think these are worth the money of a subscription but those people do and its honestly not that hard to "fathom" simply because you don't value those things. I personally wouldn't buy a $100,000 car or a $5000 watch but to some people it's worth it, and I can totally understand why. To some people, spending $60 on a video game is insane but to you it makes total sense.
How do you feel if someone says to you "I still can't fathom why anyone would spend hours reading and posting on an internet forum about video games!!" because that is how someone who contributes to streamers views your comment.
Second, people have disposable income. some people have a lot of it. Donating $50 or $100 or $500 to get a reaction out of Destiny for someone that is very rich is probably the same as me buying a drink. If someone spends hours watching their favorite streamer how is that any different than paying $8 for a movie or $20 for drinks at a bar. It's just entertainment.
You might say, well those aren't actually free things and the stream is free!
Well, that's my third point, the stream ain't free. It needs subs and donations to exist. And people in general find it rewarding to support things they like. I bought a Liquid pennant when they were going to TI3 because I wanted to support the players. According to you its "throwing away money" if the players didn't know me but I felt pretty good about it and it was worth that money.
TLDR, people do things for reasons that are valuable and justifiable to them, why does it matter if you personally wouldn't do it?
i guess you're right, i mean in the end, i spend some bucks going to a strip club just to try it for fun. That's entertainment too, some people would say i'm throwing away money as well when i'm paying a stripper 5$ for a 15min dance
On April 23 2015 03:55 Doodsmack wrote: AdBlock is morally reprehensible.
If there is anything to learn from this thread, it's that the old revenue model of content creators forcing viewers to watch intrusive ads doesn't really work all that well anymore. Morals don't really have anything to do with it.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
Real job? Sure. But a way less soul-crushing kind of job than working a shitty fast food or customer service job. That's where the jealousy probably comes from. When they say it's not a real job, what they probably mean is that in order to be a real job, it has to destroy you from the inside.
I think all of them would consider being a professional athlete or designing clothing or making movies or writing books is a real job and those are all dream jobs (for most). The disparity here is that a lot of people when they look at streamers they see something they believe they can do. It doesn't seem like its very hard on the surface, you just "play games" and people "watch and give you money."
What they don't realize is that its near impossible to maintain a high level of engagement / entertainment on a regular schedule for hours a day. That shit is insanely tiring and impossible to keep up for the average person. They also don't realize that the average person is deathly boring and can't be interesting or funny for 20 minutes when they are given time to prepare let alone for eight hours spontaneously every day. There are a lot of people who think, well those guys aren't special, its just luck and I could do that. That's why they don't think its a real job, because they don't understand the skill and work behind being a streamer.
Yeah, its probably easier than mowing lawns or mining coal. But like everything there is a supply and demand, and its rare to find people that can truly entertain like the top Twitch streamers can. There's nobody like them, and each game has just a few transcendent streamers. If you're comparing yourself to Destiny or Lyric you're talking about the top 0.001% of streamers. You draw a line at that percentile in anything, and those guys are going to be doing great. If the top streamers didn't make hundreds of thousands of dollars then the industry is probably worthless.
Anyone can work in a McDonalds or do an office job, and it seems like anyone can stream for a living. Thats why they're jealous of streamers and not of like, Lebron. Streaming seems so tantalizingly reachable because the skills required are deceptive and hidden and people believe deep down they have those skills. Until people realize that "shit, I can't do what those guys do, its too hard" and recognize being a streaming entertainer is a real skill that not everyone can have, they will always be haters.
The "problem" in all this is that streamers tend to be mainly popular based on their personality. It's not like a comedian who needs to work out a funny program and to be able to nail it on stage. It's also not like a musician who needs to put in hard hours at the studio to make a great record and to prepare for a world tour. It's also not like an athlete who really needs to live a life of constantly pushing himself. etc Don't fool yourself. There aren't many professions out there where you can be this lax and still collect that much cash just for having a "personality" and being buddy buddy with your viewers while playing some games. Even Destiny himself said that streaming is much much easier than anything else he could be doing for a living. And even his fanbase thinks that he is mostly lazy as fuck.
There is nothing wrong with streaming, but you make it out like some fine, sophisticated art only enabled by the sweat and tears of the brave people that put themselves out there, and for most streams that's simply not the case.
i never said its some fine sophisticated art or that it's somehow harder than manual labor. i'm saying its rarer than manual labor. in the world there are people that are talented at things and they can make a lot more money doing things that are "easy" for them. do you think popular singers or nba basketball players work harder, in proportion, than some guy mining coal? of course not. it's just that their skills are harder to find.
the ability to interact with and provide entertainment for tens of thousands of people over long periods of time is a skill. you dismiss that as if its trivial by attributing it to a streamers "personality" as if they never have to work at it. of course they do. yeah, its easier for some people, but don't pretend there aren't some athletes that completely mail it in and don't work hard. there are a lot of those in the NBA that just coast by and barely work hard. there are artists who can work 1 hour a day. they just have the natural talent, just like streamers have their personality, and yeah, its unfair to those who are mediocre. but what these people can do is rare and provides value that can't be found elsewhere. streamers just seem more accessible and doable compared to being tall and athletic. but its the same, its skills not found elsewhere.
you try to draw a distinction between streaming and other entertainers, saying those other ones (like musicians or comedians or athletes) probably on average work harder. you're right, they probably do. but tell me what the "Destiny" of the music industry makes per year? millions? what the "Lirik" of the NBA makes? tens of millions? you're talking about the very top of the profession. the top of twitch streamers make hundreds of thousands of dollars. the top of those other industry make hundreds of millions of dollars.
i'd say the valuation and earnings are about right.
While it takes a certain amount of je ne sais quoi and effort to stick as a top streamer, the process of becoming a top streamer with a high regular viewership is pretty random imo. And a lot of it is based on things outside the streamer's direct control, namely the ingroup culture that builds up around them. Streamers do a lot to foster this sense of inclusion but much of it depends on who talks in chat and who tells their friends and whether there's a vacancy in that niche waiting to be filled. Or you bounce to the front due to a random spike in viewers and more people see you in a feedback loop; you become popular because you're popular. I watch a lot of a random small-time streamers who are nonetheless pretty regular "workers", following all the hallmarks of what career streamers do with as much or more skill. They just never got a visibility event to get the ball rolling, or they do it for fun, not a living. What I'm saying is "what it takes to be a streamer", a lot of people actually do have. Whether or not you succeed is somewhat beyond your control.
On April 23 2015 03:55 Doodsmack wrote: AdBlock is morally reprehensible.
If there is anything to learn from this thread, it's that the old revenue model of content creators forcing viewers to watch intrusive ads doesn't really work all that well anymore. Morals don't really have anything to do with it.
Well yes and no. I think its a very poor idea to go around trying to lecture people on the "morals" of Adblock. Ads are sometimes abused, on rare occasions ads are even used as a delivery vector for malware. That's made a lot of people wary. Those that abused ads, caused the rise of Adblock. Admittedly, Adblock would have been popular anyway because people just don't like Ads, but those that abused the ad supported model caused it to become more popular than it otherwise would be. You can't condemn people for using Adblock, only try and educate them as to what will happen if Ad-supported models fail.
You won't like the other options. What we are already seeing is a switch to paywalling content, taking sponsored deals to promote products to the audience for cash (native advertising, which is far longer than the 30 second ads you see on Youtube) and of course, begging for donations, often in a fairly obnoxious and time consuming fashion.
That's the future if ad-supported business models fail. That's what you're gonna get. Ads let you see content for free, if the era of ad-supported models is coming to a close then so is the era of the once free internet. More and more of the content you will is going to end up behind a paywall, or die off all together.
Not good really is it? Nope, not at all. Some of us will be fine, we already have large Twitch subscriber bases and could easily make a big push to expand them, but particularly for SC2, rejecting the ad-supported model when crowd-funding is almost impossible (see the response to Lycans Patreon for how hostile the community has become to crowd-funding) will result in the death of a lot of content you enjoy.
Just consider that before adblocking and think about potentially whitelisting some of the content you enjoy. It is not however "morally reprehensible" to adblock. It is understandable to adblock. We'd obviously prefer you didnt if we're content creators but we understand why you do it.
On April 22 2015 10:15 Fecalfeast wrote: [quote] Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''.
I don't have a clue who you are, but what better way to demonstrate community toxicity than have a guy hold a 5 year grudge over being blocked from a Youtube channel and not making a single relevant contribution to the thread, instead attacking a caster and team owner? What a ridiculous statement "hey you blocked me 5 years ago on your Youtube channel so you're the cause of community toxicity!". Haha ok, sure yes, banning a random guy from a Youtube channel 5 years ago is why people on Reddit attacked a Patreon effort from Lycangrope. Also it probably had something to do with the Space Lizards that have infiltrated the highest levels of government right?
He's just pointing out that you're quite toxic too at times. Not that you're the "source". Don't strawman him.
cue standard TB response: "when other people act like dicks they're human garbage, when i act like a dick it's because i'm right and everyone else deserves it"
Actually I was going to go with "If you don't want to get stung, don't stick your dick in a beehive", but hey whatever you want.
Some community members seem to feel they have the right to shit on content creators but then act all surprised and hurt when they get a negative response.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that people in the community contribute to it in some minute way directly or indirectly (after all, how do you know that they aren't "content creators" themselves, aren't "content creators" just people who contribute social wealth or are involved in the creation of content, i.e. by definition everybody who works a job and is a constructive member of any community? Surely how much content someone produces or even has the ability to produce is often outside their own control and subject to circumstance and peer evaluation, and shouldn't be the important point here?), and that content creators wouldn't have the job that they have with out the community members being there.
I don't know why you have this "us vs them" mentality on forums when your rhetoric with your public persona has always been "US GAMERS" or what ever, unless a) that's a cheap marketing gimmick and you don't believe it at all, or b) you just don't have the patience or good will to act in the same civil manner on the forums as you do with regards to your primary source of income, if so why bother posting at all, surely you know better?
On April 22 2015 10:31 IntoTheheart wrote: [quote] There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''.
I don't have a clue who you are, but what better way to demonstrate community toxicity than have a guy hold a 5 year grudge over being blocked from a Youtube channel and not making a single relevant contribution to the thread, instead attacking a caster and team owner? What a ridiculous statement "hey you blocked me 5 years ago on your Youtube channel so you're the cause of community toxicity!". Haha ok, sure yes, banning a random guy from a Youtube channel 5 years ago is why people on Reddit attacked a Patreon effort from Lycangrope. Also it probably had something to do with the Space Lizards that have infiltrated the highest levels of government right?
He's just pointing out that you're quite toxic too at times. Not that you're the "source". Don't strawman him.
cue standard TB response: "when other people act like dicks they're human garbage, when i act like a dick it's because i'm right and everyone else deserves it"
Actually I was going to go with "If you don't want to get stung, don't stick your dick in a beehive", but hey whatever you want.
Some community members seem to feel they have the right to shit on content creators but then act all surprised and hurt when they get a negative response.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that people in the community contribute to it in some minute way directly or indirectly (after all, how do you know that they aren't "content creators" themselves, aren't "content creators" just people who contribute social wealth or are involved in the creation of content, i.e. by definition everybody who works a job and is a constructive member of any community? Surely how much content someone produces or even has the ability to produce is often outside their own control and subject to circumstance and peer evaluation, and shouldn't be the important point here?), and that content creators wouldn't have the job that they have with out the community members being there.
I don't know why you have this "us vs them" mentality on forums when your rhetoric with your public persona has always been "US GAMERS" or what ever, unless a) that's a cheap marketing gimmick and you don't believe it at all, or b) you just don't have the patience or good will to act in the same civil manner on the forums as you do with regards to your primary source of income, if so why bother posting at all, surely you know better?
I don't have a persona. What you see is what you get.
I dislike anyone that shits on content creators in a scene that is having problems staying afloat and facing a potentially bleak future unless LOTV turns things around.
As for the "you wouldn't have a job if not for us" argument. No, we wouldn't have a job if not for our audience. The people shitting on us on forums are not our audience, they are not part of the equation. For every grump on the forums who decides he's upset today so he's going to take a shot at a content creator, there are thousands of people happily consuming that content. Those are the guys that matter, those are the guys that give us our jobs.
See Caihead, the problem is that figures like TotalBiscuit (and for that matter iNcontroL, CatZ, Destiny and anyone remotely controversial) get shit all the time from people who don't contribute to the community in any way and who might as well not be a part of it in the first place. Your post has some merit to it, in theory, but you're not being realistic.
We're talking about people who literally do nothing but stir up drama wherever there's an opportunity, whether here or on r/starcraft, and nothing more. People who are always so quick to judge everything and everyone and do nothing but that, all the bloody time. It's the kind of kids that have never subscribed to a stream or donated for a tournament, or bought an MLG pass or bought a ticket to a LAN event, the same kids who do nothing but spam twitch chats with PROTOSSED and FUCK TERRAN and other such asinine bullshit and then complain when they get banned. They live for the drama, and don't contribute in any way shape or form to the community. All they know is how to bitch and whine and incite a shitstorm. And they act like they're untouchable, they're apparently free to criticize anyone and anything, but don't you dare talk shit about them.
When you have dozens of those fuckers yelling at you whenever you say or do something, I can imagine that getting pretty annoying.
To the community members who complain about all this negativity around SC2: if you want to change that, don't silence the people questioning Blizzard's design and balance decisions, instead start by removing these cancerous drama fiends that do nothing but stir shit and complain about everything all the time and who probably don't even play this bloody game or follow tournaments. -_-
On April 23 2015 03:55 Doodsmack wrote: AdBlock is morally reprehensible.
If there is anything to learn from this thread, it's that the old revenue model of content creators forcing viewers to watch intrusive ads doesn't really work all that well anymore.
the new revenue model is forcing viewers to watch intrusive donation and sub notifications instead. literally the most annoying thing to a person on the internet -- a sudden pop up interrupting and sometimes covering the content they were looking at with sound and animation and everything -- is what all the most popular streamers have. it's pretty crazy to me
On April 23 2015 03:55 Doodsmack wrote: AdBlock is morally reprehensible.
If there is anything to learn from this thread, it's that the old revenue model of content creators forcing viewers to watch intrusive ads doesn't really work all that well anymore.
the new revenue model is forcing viewers to watch intrusive donation and sub notifications instead. literally the most annoying thing to a person on the internet -- a sudden pop up interrupting and sometimes covering the content they were looking at with sound and animation and everything -- is what all the most popular streamers have. it's pretty crazy to me
Its kind of amazing isnt it? Popup ads are what spurred the development of adblocker but constant pop-up donation notifications? AYE OK BRO! THIS IS THE DEMOCRATIZATION OF CONTENT! CELEBRATE THAT WE NO LONGER HAVE ADS (except for the constant donation ads).
On April 23 2015 05:00 CanadianSC wrote: Super sad to see small people outraged at a little success. Mr. Bonnel has a child to support as well - destiny fighting!~
This is the most amazing part. Destiny had the forethought and the balls to bet on himself when monetization of internet streaming was still a very new thing right after he had a kid. He quit his job and went all-in on this career path. I don't even watch Destiny nor do I really care for his entertainment style but I have to commend him for his brass balls.
I like Destiny too but let's be real, he had 2000+ daily viewers when he quit his job and got to at least 3000 by the time his kid was born, and that was when CPM was much much higher and he could afford to live comfortably off ads alone.
CPM was higher back then? CPM has increased quite considerably compared to what it was in like ~2010 to 2013 or around then. Perhaps he gained more via ads due to the larger viewership and lessened number of individuals using adblock back then, but certainly, CPM has only been on the rise for both Twitch and Google.
edit: I am even pretty sure that differing twitch contracts (there are tiers) have different rates, and to my knowledge maybe TB can enlighten us, some of the CPM rates on youtube actually get quite high.
On April 23 2015 05:00 CanadianSC wrote: Super sad to see small people outraged at a little success. Mr. Bonnel has a child to support as well - destiny fighting!~
This is the most amazing part. Destiny had the forethought and the balls to bet on himself when monetization of internet streaming was still a very new thing right after he had a kid. He quit his job and went all-in on this career path. I don't even watch Destiny nor do I really care for his entertainment style but I have to commend him for his brass balls.
I like Destiny too but let's be real, he had 2000+ daily viewers when he quit his job and got to at least 3000 by the time his kid was born, and that was when CPM was much much higher and he could afford to live comfortably off ads alone.
CPM was higher back then? CPM has increased quite considerably compared to what it was in like ~2010 to 2013 or around then. Perhaps he gained more via ads due to the larger viewership and lessened number of individuals using adblock back then, but certainly, CPM has only been on the rise for both Twitch and Google.
edit: I am even pretty sure that differing twitch contracts (there are tiers) have different rates, and to my knowledge maybe TB can enlighten us, some of the CPM rates on youtube actually get quite high.
CPM this year has been absolute dogshit, like earnings have been cut in half since the end of 2014 and its only just starting to recover.
On April 23 2015 03:55 Doodsmack wrote: AdBlock is morally reprehensible.
If there is anything to learn from this thread, it's that the old revenue model of content creators forcing viewers to watch intrusive ads doesn't really work all that well anymore.
the new revenue model is forcing viewers to watch intrusive donation and sub notifications instead. literally the most annoying thing to a person on the internet -- a sudden pop up interrupting and sometimes covering the content they were looking at with sound and animation and everything -- is what all the most popular streamers have. it's pretty crazy to me
Its kind of amazing isnt it? Popup ads are what spurred the development of adblocker but constant pop-up donation notifications? AYE OK BRO! THIS IS THE DEMOCRATIZATION OF CONTENT! CELEBRATE THAT WE NO LONGER HAVE ADS (except for the constant donation ads).
the difference is that donation/sub notifications are saying to the other users "hey, i like this guy and want to support him". compared to regular adverts which are saying "buy me buy me buy me"
in the case of streamers, sub/donation notifications are specifically an expression of support, gratitude, solidarity, community, companionship
its no accident that people get welcomed the way they do when they sub to a stream (in the case of jp's channel you get a bunch of people spamming an icon in celebration and welcome)
i can see notifications becoming annoying when they interfere with the stream due to frequency/volume etc. but in my eyes they are expressions of community solidarity and very far from "intrusive donation and sub notifications" as put by nony
ps tb another fucking brilliant hs video, well played
"expressions of community solidarity" great euphemism for circlejerk
i put content into two categories: original content and reflective content. original content is like henry ford saying if i asked my customers what they wanted, they'd say faster horses, so he made cars instead. original content is having a personality that your fans think is cool, and your fans wish they could be like or they wish they could be friends with you, but they cant be you and they dont know how to meet anyone like you. it's doing new shit that people don't even know they like yet cuz they've never been exposed to it. original content is content made with uncommon skill or talent or just plain creativity and spontaneity. im a fan of original content. you wouldnt want shit like sub and donation notifications getting in the way of original content, cuz that's adding a repetitive ritual, which is just the opposite. that belongs in reflective content, which is a bunch of fan service, circlejerky kind of content, where the stream content basically represents the audience. it's people watching people behave just like they (the audience) behave, regurgitating whatever meme is popular atm, taking joy in making references where everyone can wink at each other and say "i got that reference!", saying completely predictable things in general, and pretty much never coming up with their own catchphrases or mannerisms or anything -- they're just a reflection of whatever is popular among their fans. and the audience having their names and messages be a large part of the content of the stream is obviously a pure example of reflective content.
the most popular streams have a mix of the two kinds of content. they make up their own catchphrases and assert their own personality, but they'll also absorb a lot of what's popular. they say "thanks for subbing" 100 times but at some point in a long stream they'll also say something completely unpredictable. their personality will be a bit offbeat, or an unusual combo of common personality traits, so you cant substitute them with a random person. and when they do interact with their audience, they assert their own personality in their reactions. it's not just laughing and agreeing with the hivemind. they're also probably really good (top 1% or better) at at least one game.
some streamers are popular while being more purely one or the other. i absolutely avoid someone who is completely unoriginal. i might be tempted if someone was actually reflective of me, but im pretty repulsed by the basic nerd/gamer/internet culture personality, so i'm not tempted at all. but it's basically just a community gathering, a purely social thing, and that's not why i watch streams anyway. i personally prefer someone who is original. and if you have someone making original content, you wouldnt want that other shit getting in the way. you can use your viewers as a way to prompt your original reactions, but you definitely arent doing some thoughtless ritual like "welcome to the community" or "hi how are you, im doing great". to the extent that streamers i like do that, i view it as a necessary evil, a bit of selling out that is worth it. and if they actually just like doing it, then that's fine too as long as they dont do too much of it.
the bothersome thing right now is that the vast majority of twitch viewers are actually resentful of someone who refuses to indulge them. don't interact with chat? fuck you. don't thank subs? fuck you. don't show my donation on stream? fuck you. it makes stream content more homogeneous. those things they want aren't necessarily improvements, but they dont even know that. a stream can actually be worse when the streamer indulges the viewers in conversation, or has to recognize every sub or donation, but there's a contagious bias against that notion. and if you dont do it, they just tune out. exceptions for talk shows and tournament streams are established -- they can safely run their content uninterrupted. but a guy just streaming his personal gaming? there are some unreasonable expectations that i wish there was more of a counter-movement to dispel. and the fact that one of those expectations is a universally hated thing, a pop-up, makes it an easy first target.
On April 25 2015 11:04 NonY wrote: "expressions of community solidarity" great euphemism for circlejerk
i put content into two categories: original content and reflective content. original content is like henry ford saying if i asked my customers what they wanted, they'd say faster horses, so he made cars instead. original content is having a personality that your fans think is cool, and your fans wish they could be like or they wish they could be friends with you, but they cant be you and they dont know how to meet anyone like you. it's doing new shit that people don't even know they like yet cuz they've never been exposed to it. original content is content made with uncommon skill or talent or just plain creativity and spontaneity. im a fan of original content. you wouldnt want shit like sub and donation notifications getting in the way of original content, cuz that's adding a repetitive ritual, which is just the opposite. that belongs in reflective content, which is a bunch of fan service, circlejerky kind of content, where the stream content basically represents the audience. it's people watching people behave just like they (the audience) behave, regurgitating whatever meme is popular atm, taking joy in making references where everyone can wink at each other and say "i got that reference!", saying completely predictable things in general, and pretty much never coming up with their own catchphrases or mannerisms or anything -- they're just a reflection of whatever is popular among their fans. and the audience having their names and messages be a large part of the content of the stream is obviously a pure example of reflective content.
the most popular streams have a mix of the two kinds of content. they make up their own catchphrases and assert their own personality, but they'll also absorb a lot of what's popular. they say "thanks for subbing" 100 times but at some point in a long stream they'll also say something completely unpredictable. their personality will be a bit offbeat, or an unusual combo of common personality traits, so you cant substitute them with a random person. and when they do interact with their audience, they assert their own personality in their reactions. it's not just laughing and agreeing with the hivemind. they're also probably really good (top 1% or better) at at least one game.
some streamers are popular while being more purely one or the other. i absolutely avoid someone who is completely unoriginal. i might be tempted if someone was actually reflective of me, but im pretty repulsed by the basic nerd/gamer/internet culture personality, so i'm not tempted at all. but it's basically just a community gathering, a purely social thing, and that's not why i watch streams anyway. i personally prefer someone who is original. and if you have someone making original content, you wouldnt want that other shit getting in the way. you can use your viewers as a way to prompt your original reactions, but you definitely arent doing some thoughtless ritual like "welcome to the community" or "hi how are you, im doing great". to the extent that streamers i like do that, i view it as a necessary evil, a bit of selling out that is worth it. and if they actually just like doing it, then that's fine too as long as they dont do too much of it.
the bothersome thing right now is that the vast majority of twitch viewers are actually resentful of someone who refuses to indulge them. don't interact with chat? fuck you. don't thank subs? fuck you. don't show my donation on stream? fuck you. it makes stream content more homogeneous. those things they want aren't necessarily improvements, but they dont even know that. a stream can actually be worse when the streamer indulges the viewers in conversation, or has to recognize every sub or donation, but there's a contagious bias against that notion. and if you dont do it, they just tune out. exceptions for talk shows and tournament streams are established -- they can safely run their content uninterrupted. but a guy just streaming his personal gaming? there are some unreasonable expectations that i wish there was more of a counter-movement to dispel. and the fact that one of those expectations is a universally hated thing, a pop-up, makes it an easy first target.
I'm sorry if I've missed the point of this post but are you saying that streamers need to stubbornly refuse to give their viewers what they want? You've certainly presented an accurate description of certain streams but why is it a problem that people (viewers, twitch chat) only support the providers of content they want to see?
hes saying that people like to feel validated and recognised, but that doing so (with popups and commentary) doesnt actually add to the quality of a stream (and in his view subtracts from it)
i think i get what you're saying, but i tend to disagree. this is because content "quality" isn't all that important to me. i'm perfectly happy sitting around with 1000 other people watching someone play a random game for 6 hours straight. i'm happy with that level of quality. i treat it like hanging out with a friend or bunch of friends for a day, like a cafe or bar or clubhouse i come to to lounge around and chill. and i'm happy to be a patron of that bar, and happy when other people join it
that's my perspective.
when im in the mood for different quality stuff and not just "hanging out at my favourite clubhouse", ill go put on a dedicated youtube series or an anime or a movie or guitar tutorial or god forbid do some work
On April 25 2015 11:04 NonY wrote: "expressions of community solidarity" great euphemism for circlejerk
i put content into two categories: original content and reflective content. original content is like henry ford saying if i asked my customers what they wanted, they'd say faster horses, so he made cars instead. original content is having a personality that your fans think is cool, and your fans wish they could be like or they wish they could be friends with you, but they cant be you and they dont know how to meet anyone like you. it's doing new shit that people don't even know they like yet cuz they've never been exposed to it. original content is content made with uncommon skill or talent or just plain creativity and spontaneity. im a fan of original content. you wouldnt want shit like sub and donation notifications getting in the way of original content, cuz that's adding a repetitive ritual, which is just the opposite. that belongs in reflective content, which is a bunch of fan service, circlejerky kind of content, where the stream content basically represents the audience. it's people watching people behave just like they (the audience) behave, regurgitating whatever meme is popular atm, taking joy in making references where everyone can wink at each other and say "i got that reference!", saying completely predictable things in general, and pretty much never coming up with their own catchphrases or mannerisms or anything -- they're just a reflection of whatever is popular among their fans. and the audience having their names and messages be a large part of the content of the stream is obviously a pure example of reflective content.
the most popular streams have a mix of the two kinds of content. they make up their own catchphrases and assert their own personality, but they'll also absorb a lot of what's popular. they say "thanks for subbing" 100 times but at some point in a long stream they'll also say something completely unpredictable. their personality will be a bit offbeat, or an unusual combo of common personality traits, so you cant substitute them with a random person. and when they do interact with their audience, they assert their own personality in their reactions. it's not just laughing and agreeing with the hivemind. they're also probably really good (top 1% or better) at at least one game.
some streamers are popular while being more purely one or the other. i absolutely avoid someone who is completely unoriginal. i might be tempted if someone was actually reflective of me, but im pretty repulsed by the basic nerd/gamer/internet culture personality, so i'm not tempted at all. but it's basically just a community gathering, a purely social thing, and that's not why i watch streams anyway. i personally prefer someone who is original. and if you have someone making original content, you wouldnt want that other shit getting in the way. you can use your viewers as a way to prompt your original reactions, but you definitely arent doing some thoughtless ritual like "welcome to the community" or "hi how are you, im doing great". to the extent that streamers i like do that, i view it as a necessary evil, a bit of selling out that is worth it. and if they actually just like doing it, then that's fine too as long as they dont do too much of it.
the bothersome thing right now is that the vast majority of twitch viewers are actually resentful of someone who refuses to indulge them. don't interact with chat? fuck you. don't thank subs? fuck you. don't show my donation on stream? fuck you. it makes stream content more homogeneous. those things they want aren't necessarily improvements, but they dont even know that. a stream can actually be worse when the streamer indulges the viewers in conversation, or has to recognize every sub or donation, but there's a contagious bias against that notion. and if you dont do it, they just tune out. exceptions for talk shows and tournament streams are established -- they can safely run their content uninterrupted. but a guy just streaming his personal gaming? there are some unreasonable expectations that i wish there was more of a counter-movement to dispel. and the fact that one of those expectations is a universally hated thing, a pop-up, makes it an easy first target.
i know i wont add anything by this post, sorry, .. i feel compelled <3 post, thank you for being
NonY makes some damn good points about "streaming culture" and how it has the potential to become an albatross around the necks of streamers trying to do something different. The pandering, the focus on what the chat is saying rather than the game, I mean heck just using a game, something hundreds of people worked years on just as a vector to ask for donations is pretty damn dirty in my honest opinion. Not everyone does it but there is I think a push in that direction and much of it driven by the expectations of the average Twitch user. NonY is asking is, is that really healthy?
I'm fortunate I think to be one of only people who streams who can do it without asking for donations (we have no donation function), without even using a webcam, but for many others it seems like it's a necessity and as a result, many streams look the same and adopt a business model that is potentially obnoxious and puts the game second (and I personally always believe the game should be front and center)
The subscriber/donation thing can get really annoying if it takes like 5 minutes everytime. Only thing I dislike about ads is that they usually stream in best quality, so i get lag spikes with my not that fast internet. Oh and 20 minutes ads that shouldn't exist. I personally find ads more interesting then knowing whats going on in the twitch chat. Really insane that ad block is used that much.
Re "real job" I read a few pages of comments and didn't see anyone mention the education factor. We're talking people in their early 20s spending the most important years of their lives going down a road with very little chance for changing it up/promotion/diversifying. What job can you apply your skills to after you're a popular streamer for several years? Hardly any. It's career suicide. Guy's like Demuslim might be the extremely popular in sc2, but you ask them what they would do if not sc2, and they look at you with a blank face. Even the Naniwas and MVPS have a hard time justifying gaming when with a 6 year degree they could be making more money doing a standard job.
So TLDR it's a huge sacrifice and one which I respect.
On April 26 2015 04:44 TotalBiscuit wrote: NonY makes some damn good points about "streaming culture" and how it has the potential to become an albatross around the necks of streamers trying to do something different. The pandering, the focus on what the chat is saying rather than the game, I mean heck just using a game, something hundreds of people worked years on just as a vector to ask for donations is pretty damn dirty in my honest opinion. Not everyone does it but there is I think a push in that direction and much of it driven by the expectations of the average Twitch user. NonY is asking is, is that really healthy?
I'm fortunate I think to be one of only people who streams who can do it without asking for donations (we have no donation function), without even using a webcam, but for many others it seems like it's a necessity and as a result, many streams look the same and adopt a business model that is potentially obnoxious and puts the game second (and I personally always believe the game should be front and center)
While there are exceptions, I don't think people watch twitch streamers primarily to see gameplay. If I wanted gameplay I would go play the game myself. People are watching twitch these days mostly to be entertained. The streamer is what makes it entertaining. The interaction makes it entertaining. Experiencing the game through the streamers eyes is entertaining. Feeling like a part of a community is entertaining.
I dont think this is entirely bad. Nobody is forcing anyone to watch twitch streams. And while if you are disgusted by internet culture and sub pop ups, don't watch. Why should the game come first? Again, I think most people aren't watching twitch streams purely for gameplay. They're watching for what the streamer adds to the gameplay.
And while you or I might personally not like the direction streams are headed: (webcamed, chat focused, sub notification things) the fact is that it seems to work. And again, I think it works for a reason. Watching joe schmoe play sc2 at GM level and nothing else is just boring to most people. Feeling like a part of Joe Schmoe as he plays, even if its an entirely superficial feeling, is more fun. Being a part of the group, is fun.
The only problem I have is with some of the donation begging. It makes me uneasy. But nobody is forcing anyone to give any money so meh.
On April 26 2015 04:44 TotalBiscuit wrote: NonY makes some damn good points about "streaming culture" and how it has the potential to become an albatross around the necks of streamers trying to do something different. The pandering, the focus on what the chat is saying rather than the game, I mean heck just using a game, something hundreds of people worked years on just as a vector to ask for donations is pretty damn dirty in my honest opinion. Not everyone does it but there is I think a push in that direction and much of it driven by the expectations of the average Twitch user. NonY is asking is, is that really healthy?
I'm fortunate I think to be one of only people who streams who can do it without asking for donations (we have no donation function), without even using a webcam, but for many others it seems like it's a necessity and as a result, many streams look the same and adopt a business model that is potentially obnoxious and puts the game second (and I personally always believe the game should be front and center)
While there are exceptions, I don't think people watch twitch streamers primarily to see gameplay. If I wanted gameplay I would go play the game myself. People are watching twitch these days mostly to be entertained. The streamer is what makes it entertaining. The interaction makes it entertaining. Experiencing the game through the streamers eyes is entertaining. Feeling like a part of a community is entertaining.
I dont think this is entirely bad. Nobody is forcing anyone to watch twitch streams. And while if you are disgusted by internet culture and sub pop ups, don't watch. Why should the game come first? Again, I think most people aren't watching twitch streams purely for gameplay. They're watching for what the streamer adds to the gameplay.
And while you or I might personally not like the direction streams are headed: (webcamed, chat focused, sub notification things) the fact is that it seems to work. And again, I think it works for a reason. Watching joe schmoe play sc2 at GM level and nothing else is just boring to most people. Feeling like a part of Joe Schmoe as he plays, even if its an entirely superficial feeling, is more fun. Being a part of the group, is fun.
The only problem I have is with some of the donation begging. It makes me uneasy. But nobody is forcing anyone to give any money so meh.
Yeah, I agree. I watch a lot of streams because the broadcaster makes it fun, not really because of the game. I don't really mind donation/subs popping up on the screen, however, sometimes it does get in the way if it's too frequent but the broadcasters I watch usually just disable these notifications when they get too obnoxious.
I don't really watch that many streams, but people begging for donations is something I have rarely seen (it could be me though). Most streamers actually put a message saying that donations are not needed, ever. People donate because they want to, no one forces them to.
I'd compare this to going to a movie, if the person instead of going to watch a movie decided to spend 20 bucks on the streamer and watch him instead then what's the problem? He's just paying for entertainment either way.
On April 26 2015 08:24 TRaFFiC wrote: Re "real job" I read a few pages of comments and didn't see anyone mention the education factor. We're talking people in their early 20s spending the most important years of their lives going down a road with very little chance for changing it up/promotion/diversifying. What job can you apply your skills to after you're a popular streamer for several years? Hardly any. It's career suicide. Guy's like Demuslim might be the extremely popular in sc2, but you ask them what they would do if not sc2, and they look at you with a blank face. Even the Naniwas and MVPS have a hard time justifying gaming when with a 6 year degree they could be making more money doing a standard job.
So TLDR it's a huge sacrifice and one which I respect.
It is indeed a sacrifice but I don't really think it's as big as you point out. There's nothing stopping them from getting an education and starting a career later in life, a lot of people in there 30s and 40s are getting degrees. You're also missing the fact that twitch is a community and people there are making connections constantly so there's nothing stopping them from getting together and starting some gaming related business since they will have an expertise in entertainment at least. As the article points out - a lot of these streamers are making some big cash so they can also retire very early if they wanted to. Predicting the future is simply impossible.
I fully agree with what NonY's saying. I really dislike the "kappa culture" for lack of better word. However, we're really reaching new levels of "interactive" media and there's a lot of interesting things to learn from this (marketing, sociology and psychology).
I wonder how much of my personal dislike comes from getting old...
I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems weird and scary to me, and it'll happen to you too!
-Abe Simpson :D
On April 26 2015 08:24 TRaFFiC wrote: So TLDR it's a huge sacrifice and one which I respect.
When I was streaming on Justin.tv, I had 30 ~ 100 viewers and simply playing ads generated around 1000 ~ 1500 a month. Since the ad revenue has gotten horrible, I have had to go away from the AD thing and push the sub/donation model.
Over 80% of twitch.tv is running adblock, so until that aspect of twitch goes away ( which it won't ) streamers who want to make twitch.tv a job will have to run the donation/subscriber model.
You can blame your average twitch viewer for forcing most of us to run this model.
"I spoke to one of the more successful streamers on Twitch, Steven Bonnell (often referred to by his Twitch name Destiny) to break down how a career in streaming works."
hahahahahahaha, not even close mate, not even close !
On April 28 2015 02:22 ProTech wrote: When I was streaming on Justin.tv, I had 30 ~ 100 viewers and simply playing ads generated around 1000 ~ 1500 a month. Since the ad revenue has gotten horrible, I have had to go away from the AD thing and push the sub/donation model.
Over 80% of twitch.tv is running adblock, so until that aspect of twitch goes away ( which it won't ) streamers who want to make twitch.tv a job will have to run the donation/subscriber model.
You can blame your average twitch viewer for forcing most of us to run this model.
The main reason some of us actually block ads on sites is the privacy/tracking issue, not because ads are so bad to watch. Many tracking blockers incidentally block ads. However, I for one watch twitch on a different browser to let the ads through, so you streamers can actually eat something besides KD.
I've never seen you post or stream without insulting the viewers as a group. Thanks.
It is too bad the twitch ad revenue has went down the toilet lately. I think Destiny said it was because of Twitch's rates decreasing. I wonder if it had to do with the Amazon takeover.
-edited to be slightly more polite and explanatory.
What happened to Winter? i don't see him streaming on TL on the column on the right. iirc, he used to get more than the talented pro-gamers on here who stream. did he stop?
On April 29 2015 16:10 tshi wrote: What happened to Winter? i don't see him streaming on TL on the column on the right. iirc, he used to get more than the talented pro-gamers on here who stream. did he stop?
On April 24 2015 07:03 ProTech wrote: Seems to me like, people are forgetting what streaming actually is. You are broadcasting unique material that people find entertaining. This would fall under the category of " Entertainment. " So twitch.tv streamers are working in the entertainment industry, no matter how you look at it.
I am a small time streamer, with usually less than 400 viewers. In 2014 I made $32,000. So yes, it's absolutely feasible to make a living fulltime broadcasting whatever you want. If you put in the time and the effort you will be rewarded eventually.
That's actually really awesome. I know you also stream more than anyone else, so I'd imagine that someone with at least half the dedication time-wise as you have, with similar stream numbers, can still make $15,000+ per year (and then possibly do something else if they'd like).
EPT
) instead of wasting time hunting money (and or being envious of the rich). ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/n2A8AKB.jpg)
