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On April 23 2015 02:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 23:48 Rainmansc wrote:On April 22 2015 12:19 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2015 11:58 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On April 22 2015 10:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 22 2015 10:31 IntoTheheart wrote:On April 22 2015 10:15 Fecalfeast wrote:On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote:
"Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet? There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together. That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc. He works his ass off. it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament. it was fucking pathetic. Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems. Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''. I don't have a clue who you are, but what better way to demonstrate community toxicity than have a guy hold a 5 year grudge over being blocked from a Youtube channel and not making a single relevant contribution to the thread, instead attacking a caster and team owner? What a ridiculous statement "hey you blocked me 5 years ago on your Youtube channel so you're the cause of community toxicity!". Haha ok, sure yes, banning a random guy from a Youtube channel 5 years ago is why people on Reddit attacked a Patreon effort from Lycangrope. Also it probably had something to do with the Space Lizards that have infiltrated the highest levels of government right?
He's just pointing out that you're quite toxic too at times. Not that you're the "source". Don't strawman him.
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On April 24 2015 00:21 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 02:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2015 23:48 Rainmansc wrote:On April 22 2015 12:19 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2015 11:58 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On April 22 2015 10:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 22 2015 10:31 IntoTheheart wrote:On April 22 2015 10:15 Fecalfeast wrote:On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote:
"Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet? There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together. That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc. He works his ass off. it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament. it was fucking pathetic. Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems. Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''. I don't have a clue who you are, but what better way to demonstrate community toxicity than have a guy hold a 5 year grudge over being blocked from a Youtube channel and not making a single relevant contribution to the thread, instead attacking a caster and team owner? What a ridiculous statement "hey you blocked me 5 years ago on your Youtube channel so you're the cause of community toxicity!". Haha ok, sure yes, banning a random guy from a Youtube channel 5 years ago is why people on Reddit attacked a Patreon effort from Lycangrope. Also it probably had something to do with the Space Lizards that have infiltrated the highest levels of government right? He's just pointing out that you're quite toxic too at times. Not that you're the "source". Don't strawman him.
cue standard TB response: "when other people act like dicks they're human garbage, when i act like a dick it's because i'm right and everyone else deserves it"
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On April 24 2015 03:30 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2015 00:21 DemigodcelpH wrote:On April 23 2015 02:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2015 23:48 Rainmansc wrote:On April 22 2015 12:19 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2015 11:58 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On April 22 2015 10:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 22 2015 10:31 IntoTheheart wrote:On April 22 2015 10:15 Fecalfeast wrote:On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote:
"Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet? There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together. That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc. He works his ass off. it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament. it was fucking pathetic. Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems. Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''. I don't have a clue who you are, but what better way to demonstrate community toxicity than have a guy hold a 5 year grudge over being blocked from a Youtube channel and not making a single relevant contribution to the thread, instead attacking a caster and team owner? What a ridiculous statement "hey you blocked me 5 years ago on your Youtube channel so you're the cause of community toxicity!". Haha ok, sure yes, banning a random guy from a Youtube channel 5 years ago is why people on Reddit attacked a Patreon effort from Lycangrope. Also it probably had something to do with the Space Lizards that have infiltrated the highest levels of government right? He's just pointing out that you're quite toxic too at times. Not that you're the "source". Don't strawman him. cue standard TB response: "when other people act like dicks they're human garbage, when i act like a dick it's because i'm right and everyone else deserves it"
Actually I was going to go with "If you don't want to get stung, don't stick your dick in a beehive", but hey whatever you want.
Some community members seem to feel they have the right to shit on content creators but then act all surprised and hurt when they get a negative response.
Talk shit, get hit.
He's just pointing out that you're quite toxic too at times. Not that you're the "source". Don't strawman him.
Oh please, when your example of "being toxic sometimes" is getting banned from a Youtube channel 5 years ago, you know there's a grudge going on there and not honest criticism. If that's what he meant he'd have just said it, that guy has an axe to grind.
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On April 24 2015 03:30 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2015 00:21 DemigodcelpH wrote:On April 23 2015 02:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2015 23:48 Rainmansc wrote:On April 22 2015 12:19 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2015 11:58 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On April 22 2015 10:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 22 2015 10:31 IntoTheheart wrote:On April 22 2015 10:15 Fecalfeast wrote:On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote:
"Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet? There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together. That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc. He works his ass off. it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament. it was fucking pathetic. Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems. Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''. I don't have a clue who you are, but what better way to demonstrate community toxicity than have a guy hold a 5 year grudge over being blocked from a Youtube channel and not making a single relevant contribution to the thread, instead attacking a caster and team owner? What a ridiculous statement "hey you blocked me 5 years ago on your Youtube channel so you're the cause of community toxicity!". Haha ok, sure yes, banning a random guy from a Youtube channel 5 years ago is why people on Reddit attacked a Patreon effort from Lycangrope. Also it probably had something to do with the Space Lizards that have infiltrated the highest levels of government right? He's just pointing out that you're quite toxic too at times. Not that you're the "source". Don't strawman him. cue standard TB response: "when other people act like dicks they're human garbage, when i act like a dick it's because i'm right and everyone else deserves it"
Let's be real here people being huge dicks to content creators doesn't deserve better.
The way you treat people ...you deserve to get the same treatment.
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I don't get the whole "real job" discussion. The whole point of a job is to get money. If it is legal and you can convince people to pay you (enough to live from) to do it, it is a real job.
If you hate your job that does not make it more real, it just means that you are bad at making life decisions (At least in todays western society where people have a lot of choices in regards to what job they end up with)
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i still can't fathom why anyone would donate real money to a guy whos playing video games who doesn't even know who you are. you basically just throw away money like that
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On April 24 2015 06:35 Copymizer wrote:
i still can't fathom why anyone would donate real money to a guy whos playing video games who doesn't even know who you are. you basically just throw away money like that
Why do people give money to the random guy on the street playing the guitar and singing along? Maybe because they simply enjoy watching them play and are entertained? There's a million things out there that you could argue are people "throwing their money away." People like spending money on things that entertain them, and by doing so, they're showing their appreciation and encouraging the person to entertain them even more.
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Seems to me like, people are forgetting what streaming actually is. You are broadcasting unique material that people find entertaining. This would fall under the category of " Entertainment. " So twitch.tv streamers are working in the entertainment industry, no matter how you look at it.
I am a small time streamer, with usually less than 400 viewers. In 2014 I made $32,000. So yes, it's absolutely feasible to make a living fulltime broadcasting whatever you want. If you put in the time and the effort you will be rewarded eventually.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On April 24 2015 06:35 Copymizer wrote:
i still can't fathom why anyone would donate real money to a guy whos playing video games who doesn't even know who you are. you basically just throw away money like that
First, its not actually throwing away money because they're buying perks, like playing with the streamer or getting chat privileges. You may not think these are worth the money of a subscription but those people do and its honestly not that hard to "fathom" simply because you don't value those things. I personally wouldn't buy a $100,000 car or a $5000 watch but to some people it's worth it, and I can totally understand why. To some people, spending $60 on a video game is insane but to you it makes total sense.
How do you feel if someone says to you "I still can't fathom why anyone would spend hours reading and posting on an internet forum about video games!!" because that is how someone who contributes to streamers views your comment.
Second, people have disposable income. some people have a lot of it. Donating $50 or $100 or $500 to get a reaction out of Destiny for someone that is very rich is probably the same as me buying a drink. If someone spends hours watching their favorite streamer how is that any different than paying $8 for a movie or $20 for drinks at a bar. It's just entertainment.
You might say, well those aren't actually free things and the stream is free!
Well, that's my third point, the stream ain't free. It needs subs and donations to exist. And people in general find it rewarding to support things they like. I bought a Liquid pennant when they were going to TI3 because I wanted to support the players. According to you its "throwing away money" if the players didn't know me but I felt pretty good about it and it was worth that money.
TLDR, people do things for reasons that are valuable and justifiable to them, why does it matter if you personally wouldn't do it?
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On April 22 2015 11:14 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote:
I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder. In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
Real job? Sure. But a way less soul-crushing kind of job than working a shitty fast food or customer service job. That's where the jealousy probably comes from. When they say it's not a real job, what they probably mean is that in order to be a real job, it has to destroy you from the inside.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On April 24 2015 08:49 MichaelDonovan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 11:14 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote:
I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder. In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses. Real job? Sure. But a way less soul-crushing kind of job than working a shitty fast food or customer service job. That's where the jealousy probably comes from. When they say it's not a real job, what they probably mean is that in order to be a real job, it has to destroy you from the inside.
I think all of them would consider being a professional athlete or designing clothing or making movies or writing books is a real job and those are all dream jobs (for most). The disparity here is that a lot of people when they look at streamers they see something they believe they can do. It doesn't seem like its very hard on the surface, you just "play games" and people "watch and give you money."
What they don't realize is that its near impossible to maintain a high level of engagement / entertainment on a regular schedule for hours a day. That shit is insanely tiring and impossible to keep up for the average person. They also don't realize that the average person is deathly boring and can't be interesting or funny for 20 minutes when they are given time to prepare let alone for eight hours spontaneously every day. There are a lot of people who think, well those guys aren't special, its just luck and I could do that. That's why they don't think its a real job, because they don't understand the skill and work behind being a streamer.
Yeah, its probably easier than mowing lawns or mining coal. But like everything there is a supply and demand, and its rare to find people that can truly entertain like the top Twitch streamers can. There's nobody like them, and each game has just a few transcendent streamers. If you're comparing yourself to Destiny or Lyric you're talking about the top 0.001% of streamers. You draw a line at that percentile in anything, and those guys are going to be doing great. If the top streamers didn't make hundreds of thousands of dollars then the industry is probably worthless.
Anyone can work in a McDonalds or do an office job, and it seems like anyone can stream for a living. Thats why they're jealous of streamers and not of like, Lebron. Streaming seems so tantalizingly reachable because the skills required are deceptive and hidden and people believe deep down they have those skills. Until people realize that "shit, I can't do what those guys do, its too hard" and recognize being a streaming entertainer is a real skill that not everyone can have, they will always be haters.
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On April 24 2015 09:32 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2015 08:49 MichaelDonovan wrote:On April 22 2015 11:14 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote:
I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder. In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses. Real job? Sure. But a way less soul-crushing kind of job than working a shitty fast food or customer service job. That's where the jealousy probably comes from. When they say it's not a real job, what they probably mean is that in order to be a real job, it has to destroy you from the inside. I think all of them would consider being a professional athlete or designing clothing or making movies or writing books is a real job and those are all dream jobs (for most). The disparity here is that a lot of people when they look at streamers they see something they believe they can do. It doesn't seem like its very hard on the surface, you just "play games" and people "watch and give you money." What they don't realize is that its near impossible to maintain a high level of engagement / entertainment on a regular schedule for hours a day. That shit is insanely tiring and impossible to keep up for the average person. They also don't realize that the average person is deathly boring and can't be interesting or funny for 20 minutes when they are given time to prepare let alone for eight hours spontaneously every day. There are a lot of people who think, well those guys aren't special, its just luck and I could do that. That's why they don't think its a real job, because they don't understand the skill and work behind being a streamer. Yeah, its probably easier than mowing lawns or mining coal. But like everything there is a supply and demand, and its rare to find people that can truly entertain like the top Twitch streamers can. There's nobody like them, and each game has just a few transcendent streamers. If you're comparing yourself to Destiny or Lyric you're talking about the top 0.001% of streamers. You draw a line at that percentile in anything, and those guys are going to be doing great. If the top streamers didn't make hundreds of thousands of dollars then the industry is probably worthless. Anyone can work in a McDonalds or do an office job, and it seems like anyone can stream for a living. Thats why they're jealous of streamers and not of like, Lebron. Streaming seems so tantalizingly reachable because the skills required are deceptive and hidden and people believe deep down they have those skills. Until people realize that "shit, I can't do what those guys do, its too hard" and recognize being a streaming entertainer is a real skill that not everyone can have, they will always be haters.
I agree with you. I think a major aspect of the jealousy issue is probably the idea that what streamers do is fulfilling in some way, and even though it's a difficult job that takes skill and effort, it probably doesn't crush people's souls as much as having to put on a fake smile and treat complete assholes like kings, and apologize when they get pissed off at you for shit that isn't your fault, and having to worry about being fired if you don't show up to work every day, not being able to take a day off whenever you want to, etc. The idea of sacrificing 5 days a week at a job that makes you want to die and pays garbage wages is much less preferable to the idea of streaming video games.
On the other hand, if you have a phd and are working as a professor at a reputable university publishing your ideas and teaching people stuff, then you probably aren't going to be nearly as jealous of streamers. So I think the jealousy problem stems from aspects of one's own life rather than the life of the streamer.
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On April 24 2015 09:32 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2015 08:49 MichaelDonovan wrote:On April 22 2015 11:14 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote:
I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder. In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses. Real job? Sure. But a way less soul-crushing kind of job than working a shitty fast food or customer service job. That's where the jealousy probably comes from. When they say it's not a real job, what they probably mean is that in order to be a real job, it has to destroy you from the inside. I think all of them would consider being a professional athlete or designing clothing or making movies or writing books is a real job and those are all dream jobs (for most). The disparity here is that a lot of people when they look at streamers they see something they believe they can do. It doesn't seem like its very hard on the surface, you just "play games" and people "watch and give you money." What they don't realize is that its near impossible to maintain a high level of engagement / entertainment on a regular schedule for hours a day. That shit is insanely tiring and impossible to keep up for the average person. They also don't realize that the average person is deathly boring and can't be interesting or funny for 20 minutes when they are given time to prepare let alone for eight hours spontaneously every day. There are a lot of people who think, well those guys aren't special, its just luck and I could do that. That's why they don't think its a real job, because they don't understand the skill and work behind being a streamer. Yeah, its probably easier than mowing lawns or mining coal. But like everything there is a supply and demand, and its rare to find people that can truly entertain like the top Twitch streamers can. There's nobody like them, and each game has just a few transcendent streamers. If you're comparing yourself to Destiny or Lyric you're talking about the top 0.001% of streamers. You draw a line at that percentile in anything, and those guys are going to be doing great. If the top streamers didn't make hundreds of thousands of dollars then the industry is probably worthless. Anyone can work in a McDonalds or do an office job, and it seems like anyone can stream for a living. Thats why they're jealous of streamers and not of like, Lebron. Streaming seems so tantalizingly reachable because the skills required are deceptive and hidden and people believe deep down they have those skills. Until people realize that "shit, I can't do what those guys do, its too hard" and recognize being a streaming entertainer is a real skill that not everyone can have, they will always be haters.
The "problem" in all this is that streamers tend to be mainly popular based on their personality. It's not like a comedian who needs to work out a funny program and to be able to nail it on stage. It's also not like a musician who needs to put in hard hours at the studio to make a great record and to prepare for a world tour. It's also not like an athlete who really needs to live a life of constantly pushing himself. etc
Don't fool yourself. There aren't many professions out there where you can be this lax and still collect that much cash just for having a "personality" and being buddy buddy with your viewers while playing some games. Even Destiny himself said that streaming is much much easier than anything else he could be doing for a living. And even his fanbase thinks that he is mostly lazy as fuck.
There is nothing wrong with streaming, but you make it out like some fine, sophisticated art only enabled by the sweat and tears of the brave people that put themselves out there, and for most streams that's simply not the case.
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Oh please, when your example of "being toxic sometimes" is getting banned from a Youtube channel 5 years ago, you know there's a grudge going on there and not honest criticism.
One could point at "MorroWs thoughts on foreigners" thread, .. Talk shit, get hit is fair game - goes both ways. You're not better in any comprehensible way as the "pissants" you love to bash - you're just as toxic. With the difference that you're an internet-fame-person (whatever they're called) - so if you talk shit, people remember. Obviously better than you do, by the looks.
On the job discussion: of course it is a job. There's tons of jobs around that get you paid for doing stuff that isn't "manual labor". You don't need to shovel shit or build houses - streaming (and especially organising) is/can be a full time job.
On the other hand, i don't really understand the hatred and toxicity towards people that disagree with that opinion. A "smart" is a glorified shopping cart for me, yet i know many people who'd disagree on that telling me that it is very much a car. Or a pug/toypoodle not being a dog. And i disagree that it has to do with jealousy entirely. Of course, some, if not many people might be jealous - but for others it might simply come down to their opinions (mostly older crowd, my guess).
And jacking off Kanye or what the example was, that was an arrow to the knee. Prostitution is pretty much a job. A (proper) prostitute in a brothel pays taxes, insurance and whatnot the same way anyone else does. Apart from obviously being the oldest business in the world. (and perfectly legal in germany/uk, maybe EU as well)
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On April 24 2015 07:34 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2015 06:35 Copymizer wrote:
i still can't fathom why anyone would donate real money to a guy whos playing video games who doesn't even know who you are. you basically just throw away money like that First, its not actually throwing away money because they're buying perks, like playing with the streamer or getting chat privileges. You may not think these are worth the money of a subscription but those people do and its honestly not that hard to "fathom" simply because you don't value those things. I personally wouldn't buy a $100,000 car or a $5000 watch but to some people it's worth it, and I can totally understand why. To some people, spending $60 on a video game is insane but to you it makes total sense. How do you feel if someone says to you "I still can't fathom why anyone would spend hours reading and posting on an internet forum about video games!!" because that is how someone who contributes to streamers views your comment. Second, people have disposable income. some people have a lot of it. Donating $50 or $100 or $500 to get a reaction out of Destiny for someone that is very rich is probably the same as me buying a drink. If someone spends hours watching their favorite streamer how is that any different than paying $8 for a movie or $20 for drinks at a bar. It's just entertainment. You might say, well those aren't actually free things and the stream is free! Well, that's my third point, the stream ain't free. It needs subs and donations to exist. And people in general find it rewarding to support things they like. I bought a Liquid pennant when they were going to TI3 because I wanted to support the players. According to you its "throwing away money" if the players didn't know me but I felt pretty good about it and it was worth that money. TLDR, people do things for reasons that are valuable and justifiable to them, why does it matter if you personally wouldn't do it?
i guess you're right, i mean in the end, i spend some bucks going to a strip club just to try it for fun. That's entertainment too, some people would say i'm throwing away money as well when i'm paying a stripper 5$ for a 15min dance
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On April 23 2015 03:55 Doodsmack wrote:
AdBlock is morally reprehensible.
If there is anything to learn from this thread, it's that the old revenue model of content creators forcing viewers to watch intrusive ads doesn't really work all that well anymore. Morals don't really have anything to do with it.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On April 24 2015 10:32 cantanta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2015 09:32 Hot_Bid wrote:On April 24 2015 08:49 MichaelDonovan wrote:On April 22 2015 11:14 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote:
I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder. In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses. Real job? Sure. But a way less soul-crushing kind of job than working a shitty fast food or customer service job. That's where the jealousy probably comes from. When they say it's not a real job, what they probably mean is that in order to be a real job, it has to destroy you from the inside. I think all of them would consider being a professional athlete or designing clothing or making movies or writing books is a real job and those are all dream jobs (for most). The disparity here is that a lot of people when they look at streamers they see something they believe they can do. It doesn't seem like its very hard on the surface, you just "play games" and people "watch and give you money." What they don't realize is that its near impossible to maintain a high level of engagement / entertainment on a regular schedule for hours a day. That shit is insanely tiring and impossible to keep up for the average person. They also don't realize that the average person is deathly boring and can't be interesting or funny for 20 minutes when they are given time to prepare let alone for eight hours spontaneously every day. There are a lot of people who think, well those guys aren't special, its just luck and I could do that. That's why they don't think its a real job, because they don't understand the skill and work behind being a streamer. Yeah, its probably easier than mowing lawns or mining coal. But like everything there is a supply and demand, and its rare to find people that can truly entertain like the top Twitch streamers can. There's nobody like them, and each game has just a few transcendent streamers. If you're comparing yourself to Destiny or Lyric you're talking about the top 0.001% of streamers. You draw a line at that percentile in anything, and those guys are going to be doing great. If the top streamers didn't make hundreds of thousands of dollars then the industry is probably worthless. Anyone can work in a McDonalds or do an office job, and it seems like anyone can stream for a living. Thats why they're jealous of streamers and not of like, Lebron. Streaming seems so tantalizingly reachable because the skills required are deceptive and hidden and people believe deep down they have those skills. Until people realize that "shit, I can't do what those guys do, its too hard" and recognize being a streaming entertainer is a real skill that not everyone can have, they will always be haters. The "problem" in all this is that streamers tend to be mainly popular based on their personality. It's not like a comedian who needs to work out a funny program and to be able to nail it on stage. It's also not like a musician who needs to put in hard hours at the studio to make a great record and to prepare for a world tour. It's also not like an athlete who really needs to live a life of constantly pushing himself. etc Don't fool yourself. There aren't many professions out there where you can be this lax and still collect that much cash just for having a "personality" and being buddy buddy with your viewers while playing some games. Even Destiny himself said that streaming is much much easier than anything else he could be doing for a living. And even his fanbase thinks that he is mostly lazy as fuck. There is nothing wrong with streaming, but you make it out like some fine, sophisticated art only enabled by the sweat and tears of the brave people that put themselves out there, and for most streams that's simply not the case.
i never said its some fine sophisticated art or that it's somehow harder than manual labor. i'm saying its rarer than manual labor. in the world there are people that are talented at things and they can make a lot more money doing things that are "easy" for them. do you think popular singers or nba basketball players work harder, in proportion, than some guy mining coal? of course not. it's just that their skills are harder to find.
the ability to interact with and provide entertainment for tens of thousands of people over long periods of time is a skill. you dismiss that as if its trivial by attributing it to a streamers "personality" as if they never have to work at it. of course they do. yeah, its easier for some people, but don't pretend there aren't some athletes that completely mail it in and don't work hard. there are a lot of those in the NBA that just coast by and barely work hard. there are artists who can work 1 hour a day. they just have the natural talent, just like streamers have their personality, and yeah, its unfair to those who are mediocre. but what these people can do is rare and provides value that can't be found elsewhere. streamers just seem more accessible and doable compared to being tall and athletic. but its the same, its skills not found elsewhere.
you try to draw a distinction between streaming and other entertainers, saying those other ones (like musicians or comedians or athletes) probably on average work harder. you're right, they probably do. but tell me what the "Destiny" of the music industry makes per year? millions? what the "Lirik" of the NBA makes? tens of millions? you're talking about the very top of the profession. the top of twitch streamers make hundreds of thousands of dollars. the top of those other industry make hundreds of millions of dollars.
i'd say the valuation and earnings are about right.
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While it takes a certain amount of je ne sais quoi and effort to stick as a top streamer, the process of becoming a top streamer with a high regular viewership is pretty random imo. And a lot of it is based on things outside the streamer's direct control, namely the ingroup culture that builds up around them. Streamers do a lot to foster this sense of inclusion but much of it depends on who talks in chat and who tells their friends and whether there's a vacancy in that niche waiting to be filled. Or you bounce to the front due to a random spike in viewers and more people see you in a feedback loop; you become popular because you're popular. I watch a lot of a random small-time streamers who are nonetheless pretty regular "workers", following all the hallmarks of what career streamers do with as much or more skill. They just never got a visibility event to get the ball rolling, or they do it for fun, not a living. What I'm saying is "what it takes to be a streamer", a lot of people actually do have. Whether or not you succeed is somewhat beyond your control.
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On April 24 2015 21:17 fethers wrote:If there is anything to learn from this thread, it's that the old revenue model of content creators forcing viewers to watch intrusive ads doesn't really work all that well anymore. Morals don't really have anything to do with it.
Well yes and no. I think its a very poor idea to go around trying to lecture people on the "morals" of Adblock. Ads are sometimes abused, on rare occasions ads are even used as a delivery vector for malware. That's made a lot of people wary. Those that abused ads, caused the rise of Adblock. Admittedly, Adblock would have been popular anyway because people just don't like Ads, but those that abused the ad supported model caused it to become more popular than it otherwise would be. You can't condemn people for using Adblock, only try and educate them as to what will happen if Ad-supported models fail.
You won't like the other options. What we are already seeing is a switch to paywalling content, taking sponsored deals to promote products to the audience for cash (native advertising, which is far longer than the 30 second ads you see on Youtube) and of course, begging for donations, often in a fairly obnoxious and time consuming fashion.
That's the future if ad-supported business models fail. That's what you're gonna get. Ads let you see content for free, if the era of ad-supported models is coming to a close then so is the era of the once free internet. More and more of the content you will is going to end up behind a paywall, or die off all together.
Not good really is it? Nope, not at all. Some of us will be fine, we already have large Twitch subscriber bases and could easily make a big push to expand them, but particularly for SC2, rejecting the ad-supported model when crowd-funding is almost impossible (see the response to Lycans Patreon for how hostile the community has become to crowd-funding) will result in the death of a lot of content you enjoy.
Just consider that before adblocking and think about potentially whitelisting some of the content you enjoy. It is not however "morally reprehensible" to adblock. It is understandable to adblock. We'd obviously prefer you didnt if we're content creators but we understand why you do it.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/n2A8AKB.jpg)
