On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
This is maybe 60% envy and 40% logic speaking.
It's not a "traditional job" - but it is a job.
Traditional: As in, having been around for many years.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
This is maybe 60% envy and 40% logic speaking.
I can bet you some of my "fake job" money that it's hardw ork.
Well, I certainly wasn't calling your job fake, in fact I specifically took you out of the equation. Same goes for Destiny, who has not just worked on his brand for years, but who obviously puts in quite a few hours and hosts tournaments, etc.
This woman was interviewed because there was a fire:
Years later, because people seemed to find her reaction funny, she's a millionaire. If that's not closer to winning the lottery than to a profession, I don't know what is.
Convenient that you didn't quote his last paragraph.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
This is maybe 60% envy and 40% logic speaking.
You don't have to be mining coal for it to be a real job, that's a ridiculous attitude.
And that's certainly not mine. My job is quite similar to that of a streamer. I sit around either in a bar or at tourists locations and play music. I'm at the mercy of people enjoying what I do, just that they pay me for it instead of Twitch or Youtube paying me for it. The thing is, if I don't put in work, if I just fiddle around, if I play things I like instead of things people want to hear, I get paid far less. So my "wage" is a result of effort put in, which is the same for Destiny. And I think there should be a distinction. Not everyone who falls ass-backwards into money has actually earned it.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
This is maybe 60% envy and 40% logic speaking.
Let's break down what you just said.
Your opinion of what is a job is entirely irrelevant to the bank.
It's not. Because when the majority of guys decides, your job is not a real job and what you do shouldn't be supported financially the way it is, you don't have a job anymore. And with you i don't mean you personal but your average streaming celebrity. As for the argument: Of course, what you do can be real hard work. If it truly is, is a thing we can't know, but it seems likely to me, you have plenty to do.
It's a job sure, but not one I can really respect. Well, destiny is one of the streamers that I can respect somewhat, most of them not at all. Basically, you'd play video games 8 hours a day anyway, and here you just get paid to do so(And to talk which you might do anyway as well). It's really not comparable at all to working at an office for 8 hours a day unless you pretend that you'd do that even if you didn't get paid. That 100k / year is an enormous income and Destiny doesn't have anywhere near the biggest stream.
Hearthstone players making 500k+ is pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Now, I can respect players who actually have top level skill in their game, but especially female ones who wear revealing tops and act stupid and get 1k+ in donations per day, oh boy. Don't get me wrong though, it's not like I respect most artists / entertainers any more(mostly those who actually are very good singers / at playing instruments I do). And on the flipside, there are some youtube content creators / streamers who have some extremely good content that took a lot of time and effort to create. Sadly, it rarely is more popular than people who make bad jokes and embarrass themselves on stream, which I can't respect at all.
A thing about it is that it's not exactly sustainable for your entire career... Unless you're expecting to stream video games when you're like 60 years old. Then again, at the top end it doesn't even need to be. You can retire after like 5 years and live comfortably until the day you die.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
This is maybe 60% envy and 40% logic speaking.
Let's break down what you just said.
Your opinion of what is a job is entirely irrelevant to the bank.
It's not. Because when the majority of guys decides, your job is not a real job and what you do shouldn't be supported financially the way it is, you don't have a job anymore. And with you i don't mean you personal but your average streaming celebrity. As for the argument: Of course, what you do can be real hard work. If it truly is, is a thing we can't know, but it seems likely to me, you have plenty to do.
That's basically the same as being self employed, if nobody wants you to do building work for them anymore, you're fucked in the same way.
Any job you love doing does not really count as work. Of course in some cases if your doing it all day everyday you may come to love it less. Not everyone gets to do a job that they can enjoy even with the good and the bad so on some part it is jealousy.
There are professional players who put years of time consuming dedicated practice into something in order to become among the best in the world at what they do. There are people who can create content and episodes or put on a show and are great at doing it. Then there are people who cant or wont do either of these and are just bad at playing games but can be entertaining while doing so and turn up consistently. Of course the last group are the people who seem to be the most popular and have the highest income. This is perhaps where some of the feelings of 'its not a real job' come from. Or when saying 'its not a real job' what is really being said is there are more deserving people that are better at what they do, which could be applied to just about everywhere else.
There are a lot of games that I have only watched and not bought or played myself as a result of twitch. On one hand it is free marketing for the game on the other the majority of people watching will have no intention of buying the game. Of course it probably works out in an overall increase in sales for the game but I would not be surprised in some cases if streamers end up benefiting more than any extra sales the game gets as a result.
Creating a good game is hard. There are the people who can create the games, people who can provide valuable comments and critiques and people who consume the media. Twitch enables people to turn consuming the media into an income and use the games and music that others have created to benefit themselves. At least part of myself feels slightly guilty for not rewarding the game developers with buying the game.
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
This is maybe 60% envy and 40% logic speaking.
Let's break down what you just said.
Your opinion of what is a job is entirely irrelevant to the bank.
It's not. Because when the majority of guys decides, your job is not a real job and what you do shouldn't be supported financially the way it is, you don't have a job anymore. And with you i don't mean you personal but your average streaming celebrity. As for the argument: Of course, what you do can be real hard work. If it truly is, is a thing we can't know, but it seems likely to me, you have plenty to do.
That's basically the same as being self employed, if nobody wants you to do building work for them anymore, you're fucked in the same way.
sure, but it explains to some extent why streamers/ gaming celebs like TotalB and other act so entitled when the topic comes up. Sure, it's their livelihood.On the other hand, it also means we, as a community, shouldn't rely on their information solely when we make up our minds about this subject, because naturally there is some bias on their side.
Hey guys, I started making a site that archives live streaming stats from various platforms, including Twitch of course. We provide daily, weekly and monthly general scoreboards, and also the top streamers for each game. ie SC2 HotS for March 2015: http://gamoloco.com/game.php?n=StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm&period=monthly
On April 22 2015 21:40 Incolas wrote: Hey guys, I started making a site that archives live streaming stats from various platforms, including Twitch of course. We provide daily, weekly and monthly general scoreboards, and also the top streamers for each game. ie SC2 HotS for March 2015: http://gamoloco.com/game.php?n=StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm&period=monthly
On April 22 2015 11:02 Shadowfyre wrote: I would like to point out to people who say that Destiny/other streamers don't have a "real job". They do. A valid job at that, as well as the fact that Destiny has stated that he has held several job doing physical labor and the like and has said that streaming professionally is just about as hard as those jobs, if not harder.
In my experience, those who use the "real job" argument do so out of jealousy and little more than that. Does it pay money? Then its a real job, the money is just as real as everyone elses.
I don't really know, maybe I'm being too conservative, but for me there's a great deal of difference between producing professional videos on a weekly basis for educational or entertainment purposes on the one hand, and just goofing off in Minecraft and uploading let's plays.
"Does it pay money, then it's a real job" doesn't work for me. By that logic, winning the lottery is a job, being the owner of the grumpy cat is a job, sucking off Kanye West (rapper?) is a job.
This is maybe 60% envy and 40% logic speaking.
Let's break down what you just said.
Your opinion of what is a job is entirely irrelevant to the bank.
It's not. Because when the majority of guys decides, your job is not a real job and what you do shouldn't be supported financially the way it is, you don't have a job anymore. And with you i don't mean you personal but your average streaming celebrity. As for the argument: Of course, what you do can be real hard work. If it truly is, is a thing we can't know, but it seems likely to me, you have plenty to do.
That's basically the same as being self employed, if nobody wants you to do building work for them anymore, you're fucked in the same way.
sure, but it explains to some extent why streamers/ gaming celebs like TotalB and other act so entitled when the topic comes up. Sure, it's their livelihood.On the other hand, it also means we, as a community, shouldn't rely on their information solely when we make up our minds about this subject, because naturally there is some bias on their side.
Well, I wouldn't lose sleep over the definition of real job, regular income is sufficient for any bank with enough evidence. I will say though, it doesn't need to be jealously, it's a perfectly valid (highly subjective) argument in the same way that why does a professional footballer get paid hundreds of times more than a nurse for kicking a ball around a field for a living.
Regarding community toxicity. I think it's prevalent on the internet, a lot more so on games. I think it's easily avoidable though, just don't reply to the toxicity.
According to some people here, the entire entertainment industry consists of a lot of "not real jobs". Basically everyone who does something for a living he really enjoys. Nowadays almost every hobby can in some way become a job and it's great that the same goes for computergames as well!
On April 22 2015 22:26 Swisslink wrote: According to some people here, the entire entertainment industry consists of a lot of "not real jobs". Basically everyone who does something for a living he really enjoys. Nowadays almost every hobby can in some way become a job and it's great that the same goes for computergames as well!
Anything can be a real job. The whole idea of "real" vs. "fake" jobs is stupid.
That said, there is a very real difference between playing/streaming video games/playing music/acting/play a sport as a profession vs. doing an office job/being a cop/firefighter/teacher/etc. as a job.
As one person pointed out, the first group gets to do a hobby/passion that they've wanted to do all their life and can/enjoy doing in their downtime and make money off of it.
Enjoying your job isn't a very good line to draw. However, this "hobby" aspect is a much better one. I can't and don't come home and work as a nurse/EMT as a hobby. A factory worker can't/'doesn't want to come home and create whatever as a hobby. This list could go on and on, but you see my point. There's a very big difference between "normal" jobs, where someone has to do something they wouldn't do if they weren't paid for it, and this "other" class of jobs, where someone turns a lifelong passion and hobby into a means of income.
Is one more legitimate than the other? No. If you are good enough to make money off of a hobby/passion, then more power to you. That's a dream that pretty much everyone has. However, if you are the type of person that makes money this way, and yet is still spoiled enough to ever compare your job to what a teacher, cop, firefighter, soldier, factory worker, office worker, or any number of other jobs does, you need to be smacked. They are worlds apart and if you can't see the difference between making money off of what is essentially a hobby and making money doing something you would never do if you weren't paid to do it, then you have some self-reflection to do.
While Destiny puts a ton of hard work and long hours into what he does, pretty much every single profession that I listed (and many more) put in far more hours for far less money while doing something that they wouldn't actually do for fun to boot. Doing something like this is just like being privileged; we all wish we grew up with a ton of money and opportunities. We all want our kids to have that. However, there's a difference between being privileged and spoiled. It's totally fine to have a lot of privilege. But you need to appreciate it, and when you don't, it's a problem.
We all wish we could play video games for a living. We all wish the best to those than can. But if you do and don't appreciate the incredibly privileged position you're in, then you need a reality check.
As for respect, well, there are different kinds of respect. I can respect anyone that is good at their job for having that skill. However, I don't necessarily respect that person for doing that thing. These streamers are just like artists/entertainers/athletes/etc. They entertain and bring culture to us. It's not a matter of "I don't respect anyone that does X", it's "I don't respect people that do X in a certain way". I don't have a lot of respect for trashy entertainers who have no skill but just make money off of laziness, fads, and stupidity. Similarly, I don't have respect for many private defense attorneys, Wall Street bankers, corporate big-wigs, lobbyists, etc. and yet these would be considered "normal" jobs. There's context to every person's job, so it's a little extreme to just say you don't respect streamers as a whole. Streamers are a diverse group of people. Some of them work hard and put out quality content. Others are lazy and put out crap and yet make all kinds of money by being stupid.
On April 22 2015 21:40 Incolas wrote: Hey guys, I started making a site that archives live streaming stats from various platforms, including Twitch of course. We provide daily, weekly and monthly general scoreboards, and also the top streamers for each game. ie SC2 HotS for March 2015: http://gamoloco.com/game.php?n=StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm&period=monthly
This is one of the oddest post I've seen in a while. I always enjoy seeing pro lurker (est. 2002), pop up every now and then. Based on your posting stats, you are almost considered active!
If streaming was easy and free money then everyone would do it. Truth is it takes hard work and a certain talent. That is why there are so few high profile celebrity streamers. Just like any other entertainment medium.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''.
On April 22 2015 10:12 -Switch- wrote: "Bonnell works roughly 60 hours a week" lol
Assuming you're not doubting the actual amount of time he puts into his stream, how is his work less valid than someone who sits in an office plugging numbers into a spreadsheet?
There was also a tournament that he organized, which took a huge amount of time to pull together.
That tournament was phenomenal, and he got so much unjustified hate from being transparent with donation distribution iirc.
He works his ass off.
it really saddened me when people flamed him over the internet because he made money out of his tournament.
it was fucking pathetic.
Community toxicity has been on the rise as of late. The reaction to Lycans Patreon launch on Reddit was nothing short of disgusting. There's no doubt that previous crowdfunding efforts and botches have poisoned the well but the open hostility from some people was a disgrace. Civility is a lost art it seems.
Really? I remember commenting on one of your video's back in 2010 when sc2 came out. You made a video talking about new players learning the game. You kept going on with strategy stuff like scouting and reacting etc. I just made a suggestion that focussing on mechanics is maybe a better way to start of the game. You ranted me out on the comment section and blocked me from your channel. I think you should really look at yourself instead of making comments like ''community toxcity has been on the rise as of late''.
posting this crap towards tb is toxic,I hope the irony isn't lost on you
EPT
