EPTthings like these are always in flux, of course
Greatest Players of All Time: Part 1 - Page 19
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Vari
United States532 Posts
things like these are always in flux, of course | ||
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LimitSEA
Australia9580 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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Grotfange
France7 Posts
On April 12 2015 17:56 opisska wrote: I didn't make a statistics, but it seems to me that about half of the people rank Taeja 3rd. What the mythical fuck is wrong with you people? He is one of the cutest creations in the world and he is really, really good at shitting all over foreigners and a selected subset of Korean players who like to travel, but he has never ever even reached a finals in Korea. Just get real. . Well it's true that he never won a Gsl and that's might be why he doesn't deserve the first spot, but he made 2 Gsl ro4 run he was bad at gsl format but he was a beast in week-end tournament where he could beat any one, look at his run in dreamhack summer 2014 he went 17-0 beating player like Hero and jaedong. and back in 2012 when he carry TL in IPTL going 23-3 against the best korean team and almost all kiling IM twice, crushing seed when he just won his gsl title . So yes he only won outside korea but who else had won 11 tournament in 3 year( incuding 5 in one year) , so yes he probably doesn't deserve the first spot but he is top 5 at least . | ||
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SkrollK
France580 Posts
On April 12 2015 18:55 Schelim wrote: top 3 gonna be Mvp, MC, Nestea in that order or stuchiu is wrong. also Stephano will probably be in there to refute claims of racism. Honestly, Life has to be top 3. I mean, he HAS to. I don't see one world where he is not. | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On April 12 2015 18:59 SkrollK wrote: Honestly, Life has to be top 3. I mean, he HAS to. I don't see one world where he is not. I'd have thought Life was a lock for #2 for almost everyone, if not #1. :/ | ||
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ETisME
12259 Posts
Nestea should be there not just because of his gsl but also his games with mass banelings blowing up mass thors and his 90%+ win rate in zvz. He played in some of the worst zerg maps and still dominate hard. He was just way ahead of other zerg players. It was good to be a IM fan back then T T Life must be within top 5 Parting deserve it as well, he has never really slumped off imo. I think herO and zest should be there just because of the monstrous skill they displayed, but probably top ten. | ||
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HolydaKing
21253 Posts
1. Mvp 2. Life 3. MC 4. Polt 5. Taeja 6. Parting 7. Zest 8. Nestea 9. Bomber 10. herO or something... very hard to do such a list. ^^ Maybe Polt is a little high, but I value him being strong over such a long period. | ||
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Ardias
Russian Federation605 Posts
10. Polt 9. Rain 8. Innovation 7. Nestea 6. Zest 5. MMA 4. MC 3. Taeja 2. Mvp 1. Life As we see from Zealously post, three players here are guessed wrong, which perfectly fits in my ranking, with exclusion of sOs, Bomber and Parting and addition of Rain. Now with reasoning. As it seems from the ranking, wins in Korea plays a huge part in the player's position as well as consistensy. As for impact made on the game and dominating form - about this I cannot be sure, since missed quite a lot of Starcraft, especially in 2012 and 2014. Also, why I've excluded Bomber and Parting: Bomber - most of the victories are in NA, only one korean title is GSL Code A somwhere in early 2011, so for reasons, mentioned above, I left him aside. With Parting it was a bit harder. Yes, he is very consistent player and have Nestea award. But in the rankings we already have a Nestea award winner - DRG, who actually have a GSL championship under his belt. So I decided, that titles mean a little more than mere consistency, and left Parting out of the top, since he lacks any korean Premier win. So, lets go down by the ranking. 10. Polt - Super Tournament champion, quite consistent player with multiple victories all over the world, no big slumps. What differs him from Bomber, who is out of the list? Super Tournament victory and the fact, that Bomber was falling out of radar more, in my opinion. 9. Rain - consistency (9 code S of 10 GSL participations) and 2 Korean championships (even if we count OSL 1 as "easier" tournament sue to recently switched Kespa pros, which I won't buy since in the playoffs Rain crushed trough ESF players such as MKP, Parting and DRG). 8. Innovation - now I think that put him quite high in the list, but was comparing him directly with Rain, and Innovation's results seemed a bit higher to me. More deep runs, 2 big championships one of which is GSL, the 2nd most important tournament in the rankings. 7. Nestea - at first he was even on 5th place, but later I switched him and MMA. 3 GSL victories, being constant top player in 2010-2012, but then he started to lose ground, and also his victories were made in somewhat easier times. But Nestea is very intelligent player and IIRC made huge impact on Zerg playstyle in the time he was playing. 6. Zest - the most dominant player of 2014, I guess. Though I may put him a bit too high in the list of GOAT, but he still have 4 Premier wins in tournaments stacked with top koreans (one of which is GSL) in a span of one year. 5. MMA - quite similar to Polt and Bomber, but with much more dominant period in Korea, with GSL and Blizzard Cup victories and 2nd place in Super Tournament. Though he fell in a slump, MMA managed to rise again, aquire some lesser premier tourneys and take 2nd place at Blizzcon, which is considered here as the most important tourney ever. 4. MC - half-million dollar man, 2 GSl victories, one 2nd place, multiple victories, 2nd, 3rd, 4th places, top1 in amount of medals combined and still a good player. 3. Taeja - most premier wins, but all of them are outside of Korea. Great consistensy though. + Liquid bias. 2. Mvp - 4 GSL victories, 2 GSL 2nd places and numerous other tournaments. Dominant for whole WoL, but now he is a shadow of former-self unfortunately. 1. Life - if he didn't perform so well lately, I would but him on the 2nd, or even 3rd place. But GSL win and SSL top4 shows that his victories in the late 2014 were not a fluke. So if we add the fact that Life may be easily considered the best player in the world right now to the giant list of his previous achivements (like GSL, Blizzard Cup, most stacked MLG ever, and etc.), I believe he can be considered top 1. Though as I said, this moment I've decided with coinflip. The weak points in my arguments: I seem to evaluate victories in Korean Premiers a bit too much over consistent being on the top as well as victories on the non-korean (geographically) tournaments. Possible mistakes: If we look at Zealously quote again, we see that there are some variations possible. sOs is out for sure, which leaves us with 11 players, 2 of which are guessed wrong. Let's try to gess who is it, and who is the one to fill the spot. MMA, MC, Life, Mvp, Nestea, Taeja - I believe these 6 surely share some places in top10, just due to the amount of results in Korea (for first 5) as well as consistency and legacy made. Now if SoO and Maru made it to the top15, then I dead sure that Zest will be there as well, again, due to his outstanding performance in Korea. Which leaves us with 4 more questionable picks: Bomber Polt Innovation Parting I've described my opinion on their weak and strong points, so I won't repeat myself. I'm just sure that 2 of them are not on the top-10. Who - we will know in the next week. Now for the one person to be here - there could be also some interesting variations, most of which are already mentioned in the thread. So let's look at possible contenders. Fruitdealer - I seeeeriously doubt that. Winning 1st GSL ever, even in hard times for his race, will damn sure won't make you the best player of ALL times. H/herO - both, despite their splendid performance, were not dominant, nor did they won any korean premier. Jaedong - though I was his fan in BW, there is no chance in hell he'll get in the list, due to lack of consistency and struggling even at non-korean tourneys. Hyun - same. Symbol - despite being one of the major Kong he surely do not surpass SoO and MKP in that regard, so he cannot be here. Squirtle - same. Which leaves us with 3 most likely choices. Soulkey - One GSL Championship and one 2nd place on Hot6ix cup. Always being stable contender for the championship and always a legitimate threat, but never the best of the best. Rain - see above. In comparison to Soulkey they seem quite similar - both came with Kespa (though Rain did succeeded a bit earlier), both consistent and deadly. But I'll put Rain a bit above due to 2 korean championships (in the finals of one he also did beat Soulkey), why Soulkey has 1. Also other results seem a bit higher for the Rain as well. Stephano - damn, if he make it to the top10, then I made a major fuckup in my calculations. Don't get me wrong, I like Stephano, alwasy loocked up at him as a foreigner hope until he retired, and yes, he have 4 premier wins, but to put him at top 10 GOAT list? Don't think so. Period of his dominance was a little bigger than a year, and he never made it deep in Korea. His wins were all international tourneys, and despite beating some good Koreans there, I doubt we may consider him such a great player. Top 15 maybe, but not top 10, so I'll leave him out of my calculations Still, I would be happy to see him, though it will prove me dead wrong. So now we have 4 names 2 of which had to go and 2 names 1 of which we need to add. Bomber Polt Innovation Parting Soulkey Rain We may divide these players into ESF and Kespa groups. Bomber, Polt and Parting being here almost from the start and being consistent throughout the years, all of them didn't get much on the homeground (with the exception of Polt's ST championship). But Parting continued to play in Korea, remaing consistently strong and sometimes being on the verge of winning, but never made it in Korea. His victories on WCG and WCS were, well, fairly easy, and Homestory X and Red Bull can't be compared to actual Korean tournaments. Still he got 3 2nd places, and may be I've really underestimated Parting due to his lack of actual wins. Polt and Bomber are the same in many regards, but I consider Polt as more stable player +his ST win. As for Kespa (Soulkey, Innovation, Rain) - as I know sure, at least one of them should be in and one of them not. From these 3 I consider Soulkey as the weakest one at least in terms of results. Inno and Rain seems quite similar in terms of results, perfromance and impact on the game and I don't think that one of them will be in, and one will not. So it leaves us with Rain in and either Bomber and Polt or Bomber and Parting out. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On April 12 2015 18:58 Grotfange wrote: Well it's true that he never won a Gsl and that's might be why he doesn't deserve the first spot, but he made 2 Gsl ro4 run he was bad at gsl format but he was a beast in week-end tournament where he could beat any one, look at his run in dreamhack summer 2014 he went 17-0 beating player like Hero and jaedong. and back in 2012 when he carry TL in IPTL going 23-3 against the best korean team and almost all kiling IM twice, crushing seed when he just won his gsl title . So yes he only won outside korea but who else had won 11 tournament in 3 year( incuding 5 in one year) , so yes he probably doesn't deserve the first spot but he is top 5 at least . And there you show exactly the problem of every pro-Taeja reasoning. He "beat players like Hero and Jaedong", that is, players whose SC2 fame is of exactly the same origin - being good in foreign events. This is argumentation in circle, these players beat each other in their closed ecosystem, but who of them has proven he can consistently defeat the real competition? And the two ro4, come on, soO who is 4 times better in the "GSL showings" category (twice more at twice better spot, that is four) is not even top 10 ... edit: to be clear, I watched most of Taeja's runs and I cheered for him almost always, but we need to be a little realistic. | ||
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vflux
New Zealand118 Posts
10.  Rain9.  NesTea8. Zest7.  Innovation6. Polt5. TaeJa4. MC3. MMA2. Life1. MvpThis is my predicted ranking, although I don't think Mvp deserves the #1 spot anymore, Life and arguably MMA have surpassed his achievements and Mvp has been irrelevant for most of HOTS. Mvp having health problems also shouldn't come into the discussion. Edit : Switching Parting for Rain since after reading Zealously's hint my ranking couldn't be right. | ||
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LimitSEA
Australia9580 Posts
On April 12 2015 19:06 Phredxor wrote: I'd have thought Life was a lock for #2 for almost everyone, if not #1. :/ As an IM fanboy who still holds a grudge over that G5L disappointment, I have to admit Life should be a lock for #2. I'm not sure where Nestea and MC will wind up, but I'd be surprised if MC at the least wasn't top 5. | ||
stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On April 12 2015 18:46 Vari wrote: I feel like maru at 13 is the placement the author will be most regretting in the future things like these are always in flux, of course nah, I dont regret any of the rankings. I counted and balanced everything I considered relevant on this list. | ||
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Ardias
Russian Federation605 Posts
On April 12 2015 19:23 opisska wrote: And there you show exactly the problem of every pro-Taeja reasoning. He "beat players like Hero and Jaedong", that is, players whose SC2 fame is of exactly the same origin - being good in foreign events. This is argumentation in circle, these players beat each other in their closed ecosystem, but who of them has proven he can consistently defeat the real competition? And the two ro4, come on, soO who is 4 times better in the "GSL showings" category (twice more at twice better spot, that is four) is not even top 10 ... How about 29-20 vs Life, 7-4 vs Soulkey, 20-12 vs Innovation, 13-7 against MMA, 5-1 vs Zest, 3-1 vs SoO, 10-8 vs DRG? Also this is TeamLiquid. Taeja will be in top5 here for sure, and 3rd place is quite a possibility. | ||
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Elentos
55456 Posts
On April 12 2015 19:23 opisska wrote: And there you show exactly the problem of every pro-Taeja reasoning. He "beat players like Hero and Jaedong", that is, players whose SC2 fame is of exactly the same origin - being good in foreign events. This is argumentation in circle, these players beat each other in their closed ecosystem, but who of them has proven he can consistently defeat the real competition? And the two ro4, come on, soO who is 4 times better in the "GSL showings" category (twice more at twice better spot, that is four) is not even top 10 ... edit: to be clear, I watched most of Taeja's runs and I cheered for him almost always, but we need to be a little realistic. Maybe selling TaeJa's runs short then. I agree HerO and JaeDong aren't among the greatest of greatest because most of their fame comes from their competition in non-Korean environments. But in weekend tournaments, other players simply don't hold up. In those, TaeJa has beaten players like soO, INnoVation, Life, Zest and many others. It's true, TaeJa lacks the big results in Korean tournaments, but this doesn't change the fact that he is one of the greatest in history, on his best days he could always beat anyone (even with wrist issues). That said, I wouldn't rank him top 3 either but definitely top 10 and maybe top 5. | ||
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Maxilicious
221 Posts
1. Stubbornness 2. Composure 3. Unwillingness to change The first and third do not seem to be distinct to me conceptually. | ||
nimdil
Poland3747 Posts
IPL 5 - 1st MLG Fall 2012 - 2nd Tier 2 MLG Summer Championship 2012 - 1st <- I don't get it. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On April 12 2015 19:38 Ardias wrote: How about 29-20 vs Life, 7-4 vs Soulkey, 20-12 vs Innovation, 13-7 against MMA, 5-1 vs Zest, 3-1 vs SoO, 10-8 vs DRG? Also this is TeamLiquid. Taeja will be in top5 here for sure, and 3rd place is quite a possibility. Wow, these are some stats! I may have been a little to harsh on that kid. 20-12 vs. Inno is not that surprising, because he always somehow had his number, but holy fuck the other stats are cool. | ||
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Elentos
55456 Posts
On April 12 2015 19:45 Maxilicious wrote: The three weaknesses of MarineKing mentioned in the article 1. Stubbornness 2. Composure 3. Unwillingness to change The first and third do not seem to be distinct to me conceptually. I would interpret stubbornness as the refusal to adapt to his opponent's strategy and the maps throughout a series and unwillingness to change as the refusal to adapt to the meta game. | ||
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On April 12 2015 19:45 Maxilicious wrote: The three weaknesses of MarineKing mentioned in the article 1. Stubbornness 2. Composure 3. Unwillingness to change The first and third do not seem to be distinct to me conceptually. I guess I wasn't clear enough. #1 is more of his inability to change to in-game problems within a game/series. Like using 11/11 7 times when it's clear Nestea was expecting and holding it off. Or using base trade TvT against Mvp when he practiced this style against Mvp. Unwillingness to change is the ability to change the way you play in response to the meta. I'll take someone not in the list for an example. Symbol from 2012 to the end of 2013 changed his style massively from month to month to win. He started as an ultra/infestor/baneling/queen player. Lost to Seed and decided if he wanted to win, he needed to play BL/infestor. He then went from that to a roach/bane all-in player to a roach/hydra to a muta/ling/bae to a mass ling/bane style before he fell off top tier competition. A more recent example is Snute. From 2012 to now he went from a ling/bling player (In ZvP) to a roach/ling to bl/infestor, roach/hydra/viper, and ended on his current SH style. | ||
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