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On March 28 2015 05:06 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 01:04 Saechiis wrote:On March 27 2015 18:00 Caihead wrote:On March 27 2015 16:47 Disarmed wrote:
Thanks Swoopae,
this is really insightful. I had no idea that there are times where you are sure to make a profit from betting on the less favourable player in a boX series.
but does that mean....if the odds were at 11-1 when the line was taken down, wouldnt it be more reasonable to bet on MK?
Like... shouldnt there logically be a massive counter-trend to bet on Mk as soon as the odds become that absurd? (aka as soon as there were the huge amounts dumped on Byul?)
Shouldnt everybody immediately jump on MK? (nvm if its match fixed or not) That's why the line movement is so absurd, because it is being moved that far despite people who should normally behave by putting money on MK. These huge sums of money were last minute right? Anyways, despite how ridiculous it sounds Kespa might just try and ignore this. The SC2 scene has never been widely supported in Korea. Acknowledgement of a match fixing scandal would likely dissipate the little support the game still has. It is unlikely Proleague would survive, putting all the teams' players and staff out of a job, not to mention void the sponsor deals that were pretty difficult to come by in the first place. Kespa has the responsibility to keep their leagues clean, but they also have the responsibility to protect their teams and employees. I feel the need to protect the SC2 scene overrules the cleanliness of the scene at this point, at least until LotV arrives and SC2 can get some new traction. I predict they'll let this blow over and come with a statement when things have a better chance of stabilising (aka not exploding). I personally think the same, Kespa could lose alot in their SC II brand up to a point where daed gem becomes true in Korea. But still, I think these things must be punished. I mean what did the ongoing Matchfixing show the matchfixers? It works aslong you dont get too greedy and your fixing players arent to stupid to fix the games right. It smells like a Gentlemens Agreement between Kespa and the Fixers "you fix not too obvious and we dont care at all". And for me that sux. I stopped watching ProLeague since every mistake, every bad decision, every bad engagement, i ask myself "fix or not fix". And that sucks.
Lol, then you shouldn't watch sports at all. Every time I see a football referee making a mistake I ask myself "corupt or not". Every time I see someone win in athletics, cycling, swimming etc. I ask myself "on drugs or not". Every time I watch gymnastics I wonder how biased are the judges. I mean, welcome to the real world and have fun, because corrution won't go away... Ever.
Why should eSports be any different ?
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On March 28 2015 05:31 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 03:22 TRaFFiC wrote:On March 28 2015 03:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On March 28 2015 03:05 TRaFFiC wrote:
The point has already been brought up here and on reddit. If MKP is guilty b/c of the betting line irregularities, so are all the other players implicated. You can't cherry pick.
It is really difficult to know who was in and who wasn't on this. For certain, whoever bet the big money was, and MK (you can remove the P from this name) obviously was because he purposely threw the match. Finding out who else knows is very difficult. "whoever bet the big money" Do we have the details of how much money was bet on each player in question? Assuming we did, does more money bet on a player make him more guilty? No. From my understanding, this has nothing to do the total amount. It's the ratios in the bet. Saying "obvious" doesn't make any statement true. It's obvious to me God doesn't exist, but most people would not agree. Thank God I'm not the only one who is very annoyed by the constant use of "obvious" by many posters to prove their point. Saying that this is obvious is just obnoxious and holds 0 argumentative value, guys. That being said, I do agree that the main indicator of match-fixing are the betting lines, not the game.
That's not fair; A lot of explanations were given that warrants the use of "obvious".
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On March 28 2015 05:37 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 05:31 OtherWorld wrote:On March 28 2015 03:22 TRaFFiC wrote:On March 28 2015 03:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On March 28 2015 03:05 TRaFFiC wrote:
The point has already been brought up here and on reddit. If MKP is guilty b/c of the betting line irregularities, so are all the other players implicated. You can't cherry pick.
It is really difficult to know who was in and who wasn't on this. For certain, whoever bet the big money was, and MK (you can remove the P from this name) obviously was because he purposely threw the match. Finding out who else knows is very difficult. "whoever bet the big money" Do we have the details of how much money was bet on each player in question? Assuming we did, does more money bet on a player make him more guilty? No. From my understanding, this has nothing to do the total amount. It's the ratios in the bet. Saying "obvious" doesn't make any statement true. It's obvious to me God doesn't exist, but most people would not agree. Thank God I'm not the only one who is very annoyed by the constant use of "obvious" by many posters to prove their point. Saying that this is obvious is just obnoxious and holds 0 argumentative value, guys. That being said, I do agree that the main indicator of match-fixing are the betting lines, not the game. That's not fair; A lot of explanations were given that warrants the use of "obvious".
Meh. The use of obvious is invalid anyway because it implies that you and the person you are saying to that it's obvious have the same view of things and of the world. Much better to explain things clearly.
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On March 28 2015 05:35 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 05:06 Clonester wrote:On March 28 2015 01:04 Saechiis wrote:On March 27 2015 18:00 Caihead wrote:On March 27 2015 16:47 Disarmed wrote:
Thanks Swoopae,
this is really insightful. I had no idea that there are times where you are sure to make a profit from betting on the less favourable player in a boX series.
but does that mean....if the odds were at 11-1 when the line was taken down, wouldnt it be more reasonable to bet on MK?
Like... shouldnt there logically be a massive counter-trend to bet on Mk as soon as the odds become that absurd? (aka as soon as there were the huge amounts dumped on Byul?)
Shouldnt everybody immediately jump on MK? (nvm if its match fixed or not) That's why the line movement is so absurd, because it is being moved that far despite people who should normally behave by putting money on MK. These huge sums of money were last minute right? Anyways, despite how ridiculous it sounds Kespa might just try and ignore this. The SC2 scene has never been widely supported in Korea. Acknowledgement of a match fixing scandal would likely dissipate the little support the game still has. It is unlikely Proleague would survive, putting all the teams' players and staff out of a job, not to mention void the sponsor deals that were pretty difficult to come by in the first place. Kespa has the responsibility to keep their leagues clean, but they also have the responsibility to protect their teams and employees. I feel the need to protect the SC2 scene overrules the cleanliness of the scene at this point, at least until LotV arrives and SC2 can get some new traction. I predict they'll let this blow over and come with a statement when things have a better chance of stabilising (aka not exploding). I personally think the same, Kespa could lose alot in their SC II brand up to a point where daed gem becomes true in Korea. But still, I think these things must be punished. I mean what did the ongoing Matchfixing show the matchfixers? It works aslong you dont get too greedy and your fixing players arent to stupid to fix the games right. It smells like a Gentlemens Agreement between Kespa and the Fixers "you fix not too obvious and we dont care at all". And for me that sux. I stopped watching ProLeague since every mistake, every bad decision, every bad engagement, i ask myself "fix or not fix". And that sucks. Lol, then you shouldn't watch sports at all. Every time I see a football referee making a mistake I ask myself "corupt or not". Every time I see someone win in athletics, cycling, swiming etc. I ask myself "on drugs or not". Every time I watch gymnastics I wonder how biased are the judges. I mean, welcome to the real world and have fun, because corrution won't go away... Ever. Why should eSports be any different ?
Firstoff, I only watch 3 Sports: F1, German Football and Starcraft II.
In F1 the only way to be corrupt is to use illegal methods at the cars. And these get usually detected very early and most discussion is about stuff out of the rulebook and in the gray zones.
Oh and i watch IndyCars. Also till now I do not see fixing there.
In Germany we had once matches fixed by one ref, but not in the highes class. Therefore Footballplayers earn way to much to manipulate games and Refs also do earn not so less. I know that games can be fixed here too but is much more rarely.
Last is SC II where fixing is in one league a large problem and i did stop watching it. (Despite i lost alot of Passion after STYoe lost Life and is still not allowed to play PartinG). There is also fixing in Individual Leagues, but this is mostly to one game of a longer set and not so much like in SPL according to earlier posters here and other people.
Corruption is everywhere, but someplaces have alot more of it because its way easier to corrupt: (Low/none player income, low controll of the players and a fighting scene all togeather at korean SC II). Sorry but this can not be compared to other sports.
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On March 28 2015 05:44 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 05:37 Penev wrote:On March 28 2015 05:31 OtherWorld wrote:On March 28 2015 03:22 TRaFFiC wrote:On March 28 2015 03:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On March 28 2015 03:05 TRaFFiC wrote:
The point has already been brought up here and on reddit. If MKP is guilty b/c of the betting line irregularities, so are all the other players implicated. You can't cherry pick.
It is really difficult to know who was in and who wasn't on this. For certain, whoever bet the big money was, and MK (you can remove the P from this name) obviously was because he purposely threw the match. Finding out who else knows is very difficult. "whoever bet the big money" Do we have the details of how much money was bet on each player in question? Assuming we did, does more money bet on a player make him more guilty? No. From my understanding, this has nothing to do the total amount. It's the ratios in the bet. Saying "obvious" doesn't make any statement true. It's obvious to me God doesn't exist, but most people would not agree. Thank God I'm not the only one who is very annoyed by the constant use of "obvious" by many posters to prove their point. Saying that this is obvious is just obnoxious and holds 0 argumentative value, guys. That being said, I do agree that the main indicator of match-fixing are the betting lines, not the game. That's not fair; A lot of explanations were given that warrants the use of "obvious". Meh. The use of obvious is invalid anyway because it implies that you and the person you are saying to that it's obvious have the same view of things and of the world. Much better to explain things clearly.
Like most of the people who used the word "obvious" did. That's what I'm saying. You act as if people just post obvious and that's it.
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On March 28 2015 05:31 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 03:22 TRaFFiC wrote:On March 28 2015 03:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On March 28 2015 03:05 TRaFFiC wrote:
The point has already been brought up here and on reddit. If MKP is guilty b/c of the betting line irregularities, so are all the other players implicated. You can't cherry pick.
It is really difficult to know who was in and who wasn't on this. For certain, whoever bet the big money was, and MK (you can remove the P from this name) obviously was because he purposely threw the match. Finding out who else knows is very difficult. "whoever bet the big money" Do we have the details of how much money was bet on each player in question? Assuming we did, does more money bet on a player make him more guilty? No. From my understanding, this has nothing to do the total amount. It's the ratios in the bet. Saying "obvious" doesn't make any statement true. It's obvious to me God doesn't exist, but most people would not agree. Thank God I'm not the only one who is very annoyed by the constant use of "obvious" by many posters to prove their point. Saying that this is obvious is just obnoxious and holds 0 argumentative value, guys. That being said, I do agree that the main indicator of match-fixing are the betting lines, not the game.
Sorry, but this is pure ignorance. If you see someone stealing an apple in a store then you do not need "argumentative value", it's just how it is.
This is the crappiest and most obvious throw I've ever seen in a professional match, seriously! MarineKing is literally doing nothing for 5 minutes straight and was like:
"Maximum attention to the SCV production"
"Oh my opponent only has one base I cannot see a second one... well just macro up! I'm sure it'll be fine."
"Now I have a reaper, let's just keep him in the base and do not scout or use him at all."
Let alone his strange facial expression.
And the thing with the spinecrawler... Like it or not it is obvious.
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United States711 Posts
On March 28 2015 05:44 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 05:37 Penev wrote:On March 28 2015 05:31 OtherWorld wrote:On March 28 2015 03:22 TRaFFiC wrote:On March 28 2015 03:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On March 28 2015 03:05 TRaFFiC wrote:
The point has already been brought up here and on reddit. If MKP is guilty b/c of the betting line irregularities, so are all the other players implicated. You can't cherry pick.
It is really difficult to know who was in and who wasn't on this. For certain, whoever bet the big money was, and MK (you can remove the P from this name) obviously was because he purposely threw the match. Finding out who else knows is very difficult. "whoever bet the big money" Do we have the details of how much money was bet on each player in question? Assuming we did, does more money bet on a player make him more guilty? No. From my understanding, this has nothing to do the total amount. It's the ratios in the bet. Saying "obvious" doesn't make any statement true. It's obvious to me God doesn't exist, but most people would not agree. Thank God I'm not the only one who is very annoyed by the constant use of "obvious" by many posters to prove their point. Saying that this is obvious is just obnoxious and holds 0 argumentative value, guys. That being said, I do agree that the main indicator of match-fixing are the betting lines, not the game. That's not fair; A lot of explanations were given that warrants the use of "obvious". Meh. The use of obvious is invalid anyway because it implies that you and the person you are saying to that it's obvious have the same view of things and of the world. Much better to explain things clearly.
Sorry but obvious is the perfect word to explain what was a committed all in/proxy hatchery.
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On March 28 2015 05:35 Pr0wler wrote:
Lol, then you shouldn't watch sports at all. Every time I see a football referee making a mistake I ask myself "corupt or not". Every time I see someone win in athletics, cycling, swiming etc. I ask myself "on drugs or not". Every time I watch gymnastics I wonder how biased are the judges. I mean, welcome to the real world and have fun, because corrution won't go away... Ever.
Why should eSports be any different ?
Well, you watch cycling with the expectation that you'll need to wait 10 years to find out the real winner, so there's that 
There's a place to American Wrestling type entertainment as well. Most of us hope that Starcraft won't go that route but maybe it would survive anyway. It would just be something completely different.
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1974 Posts
On March 28 2015 05:57 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 05:35 Pr0wler wrote:
Lol, then you shouldn't watch sports at all. Every time I see a football referee making a mistake I ask myself "corupt or not". Every time I see someone win in athletics, cycling, swiming etc. I ask myself "on drugs or not". Every time I watch gymnastics I wonder how biased are the judges. I mean, welcome to the real world and have fun, because corrution won't go away... Ever.
Why should eSports be any different ? Well, you watch cycling with the expectation that you'll need to wait 10 years to find out the real winner, so there's that There's a place to American Wrestling type entertainment as well. Most of us hope that Starcraft won't go that route but maybe it would survive anyway. It would just be something completely different.
The sad thing is that American Wrestling is the way it is now precisely because no one believed in the match results due to rampant match fixing. Somewhere along the line Vince McMahon bought a league and said f-it, we're entertainment not sport now.
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Meh, MKP is obviously not guilty !!
Just think logical?
Would he ever dare to bring such shame over his ohana? What about his father, going to work being treated like he cant raise a honorable and respectful son? What about his mother, walking to the grocery, all eyes on her, who failed to teach her son integrity and mindfulness? I cant believe MKP would bring such disgrace and opprobrium to his own flesh and blood - the ones who raised him - just for the sake of a few bucks.
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On March 28 2015 06:17 bypLy wrote:
Meh, MKP is obviously not guilty !!
Just think logical?
Would he ever dare to bring such shame over his ohana? What about his father, going to work being treated like he cant raise a honorable and respectful son? What about his mother, walking to the grocery, all eyes on her, who failed to teach her son integrity and mindfulness? I cant believe MKP would bring such disgrace and opprobrium to his own flesh and blood - the ones who raised him - just for the sake of a few bucks.
Yeah and thats why there is no criminal activity anywhere. Maybe some orphants, but else, no crime at all.
We have alot of logics in this thread for or against MK, but this is the worst of its kind.
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Jesus people, I'm just saying that adding "obvious" to your posts doesn't add anything valuable to what you're saying. No need to reexplain once more that according to you MK is guilty, or to call my post "pure ignorance" (guess what, that also doesn't add anything to your point).
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On March 28 2015 05:47 JoeCool wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 05:31 OtherWorld wrote:On March 28 2015 03:22 TRaFFiC wrote:On March 28 2015 03:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On March 28 2015 03:05 TRaFFiC wrote:
The point has already been brought up here and on reddit. If MKP is guilty b/c of the betting line irregularities, so are all the other players implicated. You can't cherry pick.
It is really difficult to know who was in and who wasn't on this. For certain, whoever bet the big money was, and MK (you can remove the P from this name) obviously was because he purposely threw the match. Finding out who else knows is very difficult. "whoever bet the big money" Do we have the details of how much money was bet on each player in question? Assuming we did, does more money bet on a player make him more guilty? No. From my understanding, this has nothing to do the total amount. It's the ratios in the bet. Saying "obvious" doesn't make any statement true. It's obvious to me God doesn't exist, but most people would not agree. Thank God I'm not the only one who is very annoyed by the constant use of "obvious" by many posters to prove their point. Saying that this is obvious is just obnoxious and holds 0 argumentative value, guys. That being said, I do agree that the main indicator of match-fixing are the betting lines, not the game. Sorry, but this is pure ignorance. If you see someone stealing an apple in a store then you do not need "argumentative value", it's just how it is. This is the crappiest and most obvious throw I've ever seen in a professional match, seriously! MarineKing is literally doing nothing for 5 minutes straight and was like: "Maximum attention to the SCV production" "Oh my opponent only has one base I cannot see a second one... well just macro up! I'm sure it'll be fine." "Now I have a reaper, let's just keep him in the base and do not scout or use him at all." Let alone his strange facial expression. And the thing with the spinecrawler... Like it or not it is obvious.
"Pure ignorance" when someone does not agree with you. I see how it is  These 2 words have no place in any debate.
Your comparison is lacking to me. No one caught MKP cheating like they caught the guy stealing the apple. You BELIEVE that his bad play was a throw. You also BELIEVE his facial expressions are false. However, you aren't an expert on facial expressions I presume...
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I would be interested to know how the last batch of match fixers got caught. If KESPA has the authority to do it's own digging, they could probably find the money.
edit: They could have all players in their league register their bank account to look for illegal activity and make it a bannable offense to not declare one.
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On March 28 2015 06:35 OtherWorld wrote:
Jesus people, I'm just saying that adding "obvious" to your posts doesn't add anything valuable to what you're saying. No need to reexplain once more that according to you MK is guilty, or to call my post "pure ignorance" (guess what, that also doesn't add anything to your point).
You said this
Saying that this is obvious is just obnoxious
Which is not the same. Kinda insulting even. Completely unnecessary.
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This thread is really going places.
So is Kespa, MVP and Blizzard just gonna ignore this?
If they do, the finalists at Blizzcon should engage in a faux fixed match just to bring the issue to the light.
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On March 28 2015 06:49 BronzeKnee wrote:
This thread is really going places.
So is Kespa, MVP and Blizzard just gonna ignore this?
If they do, the finalists at Blizzcon should engage in a faux fixed match just to bring the issue to the light.
A game of throws? Who should we send for that?
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On March 28 2015 06:49 BronzeKnee wrote:
This thread is really going places.
So is Kespa, MVP and Blizzard just gonna ignore this?
If they do, the finalists at Blizzcon should engage in a faux fixed match just to bring the issue to the light.
It's starting to look like that.. Maybe DJ Helium ore anyone else could tweet to MVP again (I don't use Twitter)?
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1974 Posts
On March 28 2015 06:55 Spect8rCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 06:49 BronzeKnee wrote:
This thread is really going places.
So is Kespa, MVP and Blizzard just gonna ignore this?
If they do, the finalists at Blizzcon should engage in a faux fixed match just to bring the issue to the light. A game of throws? Who should we send for that?
I keep trying to remember who the players were who tried to lose to each other to duck playing Sen in the knock-out rounds waaaaay back in WoL days.
It's funny how that's technically match-fixing, but we accept that as strategic play (I guess since they're trying to enhance their overall tournament chances at the expense of a single game).
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On March 28 2015 06:59 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 06:55 Spect8rCraft wrote:On March 28 2015 06:49 BronzeKnee wrote:
This thread is really going places.
So is Kespa, MVP and Blizzard just gonna ignore this?
If they do, the finalists at Blizzcon should engage in a faux fixed match just to bring the issue to the light. A game of throws? Who should we send for that? I keep trying to remember who the players were who tried to lose to each other to duck playing Sen in the knock-out rounds waaaaay back in WoL days. It's funny how that's technically match-fixing, but we accept that as strategic play (I guess since they're trying to enhance their overall tournament chances at the expense of a single game).
One was Stephano wasn't it? One of the best arguments against the RR format.
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EPT
