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On March 28 2015 01:04 Saechiis wrote:
Anyways, despite how ridiculous it sounds Kespa might just try and ignore this. The SC2 scene has never been widely supported in Korea. Acknowledgement of a match fixing scandal would likely dissipate the little support the game still has. It is unlikely Proleague would survive, putting all the teams' players and staff out of a job, not to mention void the sponsor deals that were pretty difficult to come by in the first place. Kespa has the responsibility to keep their leagues clean, but they also have the responsibility to protect their teams and employees.
I feel the need to protect the SC2 scene overrules the cleanliness of the scene at this point, at least until LotV arrives and SC2 can get some new traction. I predict they'll let this blow over and come with a statement when things have a better chance of stabilising (aka not exploding).
Speechless.
edit: added entire quote, with bolded emphasis
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On March 28 2015 01:41 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 01:04 Saechiis wrote:
I feel the need to protect the SC2 scene overrules the cleanliness of the scene at this point Speechless.
Yeah I agree. That's this kind of reasoning that some traditional sports applied when facing widespread doping scandals. That didn't bring them anything good except a slow loss of credibility instead of a fast one. The sooner and the harder this can be cleaned up, the better it will be. I'd better have HotS lose even more popularity in Korea and let LotV regain it than have LotV be affected by this while it is "gaining traction'.
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On March 28 2015 01:50 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 01:41 Jarree wrote:On March 28 2015 01:04 Saechiis wrote:
I feel the need to protect the SC2 scene overrules the cleanliness of the scene at this point Speechless. Yeah I agree. That's this kind of reasoning that some traditional sports applied when facing widespread doping scandals. That didn't bring them anything good except a slow loss of credibility instead of a fast one. The sooner and the harder this can be cleaned up, the better it will be. I'd better have HotS lose even more popularity in Korea and let LotV regain it than have LotV be affected by this while it is "gaining traction'.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. The drama might actually bring more attention to SC2 and re-invigorate viewership. To do that, though, it'd have to get mainstream media coverage (as mainstream as eSports coverage gets) that will never happen unless KeSPA acknowledges that there MIGHT be an issue and that there's actually an investigation going on.
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For people who might have missed these and to have the thread keep going because it should until we get any conformation
+ Show Spoiler +
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On March 27 2015 20:08 sixfour wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2015 05:35 Doodsmack wrote:
If sports betting were to go away, the world would be a better place. If sports betting goes away, it just goes to illicit channels and we never have this topic in the first place, and the match fixing goes on regardless. If anything, sports betting needs legalising and regulating in more places (looking at America as well as Korea, if anything their stance is even more ridiculous) which'll give more security to everybody. It wouldn't surprise me if Kespa's not actually co-operating with this in the hopes that Pinnacle moves out of the SC2 market because fixing is endemic, and then without the blatant evidence from line shifts, it can just be ignored in the future. Much easier to brush things under the carpet than actually clean it up. edit - adjusting the prizepools for individual leagues so that lower players can actually get decent money might help a lot here
I'm not saying the world would be a better place if sports betting were illegal, I'm just saying the world would be better without it.
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On March 28 2015 01:41 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 01:04 Saechiis wrote:
I feel the need to protect the SC2 scene overrules the cleanliness of the scene at this point Speechless.
Quoting one sentence out of context and then responding with "speechless" as a means of harvesting cheap internet high fives. I wish you'd keep that shit to Facebook and actually respond to the point I was trying to make since you seem to disagree with it.
Fact is that kespa hasn't responded to MKP's alledged matchfixing nor the "shady" voided Pinnacle bets. I hypothesized why that could be from kespa's POV. It's a bit easy to paint me as a bad person for saying the survival of SC2 is probably currently kespa's highest priority.
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On March 28 2015 02:09 Saechiis wrote:
Quoting one sentence out of context and then responding with "speechless" as a means of harvesting cheap internet high fives. I wish you'd keep that shit to Facebook and actually respond to the point I was trying to make since you seem to disagree with it.
Fact is that kespa hasn't responded to MKP's alledged matchfixing nor the "shady" voided Pinnacle bets. I hypothesized why that could be from kespa's POV, it's a bit easy to paint me as a bad person for saying the survival of SC2 is a higher priority than having it clean at this point and then keep it at that like you've made an actual point.
Yea I thought about including the entire quote with bolded emphasis, but thought the bolded part didn't highlight enough. Fixed now.
Still, I think people like you are part of the problem. Sorry mate.
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On March 28 2015 02:09 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 01:41 Jarree wrote:On March 28 2015 01:04 Saechiis wrote:
I feel the need to protect the SC2 scene overrules the cleanliness of the scene at this point Speechless. Quoting one sentence out of context and then responding with "speechless" as a means of harvesting cheap internet high fives. I wish you'd keep that shit to Facebook and actually respond to the point I was trying to make since you seem to disagree with it. Fact is that kespa hasn't responded to MKP's alledged matchfixing nor the "shady" voided Pinnacle bets. I hypothesized why that could be from kespa's POV. It's a bit easy to paint me as a bad person for saying the survival of SC2 is probably currently kespa's highest priority.
You might want to change "I feel the need to protect the SC2 scene..." to "I feel that in the eyes of KeSPA the need to protect..." then, because I honestly thought that it was your personal opinion^^
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On March 28 2015 02:09 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 01:41 Jarree wrote:On March 28 2015 01:04 Saechiis wrote:
I feel the need to protect the SC2 scene overrules the cleanliness of the scene at this point Speechless. Quoting one sentence out of context and then responding with "speechless" as a means of harvesting cheap internet high fives.
I gave him a high five. And it wasn't cheap.
But it is pointless to watch professional SC2 if the games are fixed. Therefore, in order to protect the scene, you need to protect the integrity of the game. They are one and the same.
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On March 27 2015 22:00 sixfour wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2015 20:36 OtherWorld wrote:
I think that the issue is way more with salaries than with prize pool, no? I'm not sure that the ex-eSF teams pay salaries apart from Prime (and I doubt that Prime's salaries are very high compared to KT/SKT/JAGW/Khan/CJ) This is possibly also a significant factor, and I don't know the internal working of progaming teams in terms of salaries or if individual prize money is distributed within the team at all, but just look at the upcoming code A - drop out of it and you win all of ₩400k, good luck, see you in four months. Win through that and you double your money - you don't even break $1k unless you make the top 16. At least now there's the SSL to give another way to make cash, but they only pay the top 16, people not making the top 8 didn't make a grand, and over half the total prize pool went to Maru. If your sport is designed as such whereby such a huge proportion of prize money going into the system is going to a small amount of players, and salaries are low if they exist at all, then you really shouldn't be surprised that players either quit, move to easier markets, or be tempted to obtain money through other methods.
I'm quite certain current salaries are NOT a significant factor. Why now? There have always been talented players (capable of making it through code a qualifiers) who are teamless and penniless. There has always been fucked up prize distribution.
What stops match fixing from happening is
1) player pride and wish for recognition/fame. Most people don't play sc2 10 hours a day to be rich. Even the highest paid players don't make much. They play for the fans, for fame.
2)The threat of KESPA banning you. And then, what team will take you?
To those saying MKP is no doubt GUILTY...
The point has already been brought up here and on reddit. If MKP is guilty b/c of the betting line irregularities, so are all the other players implicated. You can't cherry pick.
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On March 28 2015 03:05 TRaFFiC wrote:
The point has already been brought up here and on reddit. If MKP is guilty b/c of the betting line irregularities, so are all the other players implicated. You can't cherry pick.
It is really difficult to know who was in and who wasn't on this. For certain, whoever bet the big money was, and MK (you can remove the P from this name) obviously was because he purposely threw the match. Finding out who else knows is very difficult.
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On March 28 2015 03:06 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 03:05 TRaFFiC wrote:
The point has already been brought up here and on reddit. If MKP is guilty b/c of the betting line irregularities, so are all the other players implicated. You can't cherry pick.
It is really difficult to know who was in and who wasn't on this. For certain, whoever bet the big money was, and MK (you can remove the P from this name) obviously was because he purposely threw the match. Finding out who else knows is very difficult.
"whoever bet the big money"
Do we have the details of how much money was bet on each player in question? Assuming we did, does more money bet on a player make him more guilty? No. From my understanding, this has nothing to do the total amount. It's the ratios in the bet.
Saying "obvious" doesn't make any statement true. It's obvious to me God doesn't exist, but most people would not agree.
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On March 28 2015 03:22 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 03:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On March 28 2015 03:05 TRaFFiC wrote:
The point has already been brought up here and on reddit. If MKP is guilty b/c of the betting line irregularities, so are all the other players implicated. You can't cherry pick.
It is really difficult to know who was in and who wasn't on this. For certain, whoever bet the big money was, and MK (you can remove the P from this name) obviously was because he purposely threw the match. Finding out who else knows is very difficult. "whoever bet the big money" Do we have the details of how much money was bet on each player in question? Assuming we did, does more money bet on a player make him more guilty? No. From my understanding, this has nothing to do the total amount. It's the ratios in the bet. Saying "obvious" doesn't make any statement true. It's obvious to me God doesn't exist, but most people would not agree.
It is pretty obvious and yes, the others are very suspect too.
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On March 27 2015 17:34 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2015 16:47 Luolis wrote:On March 27 2015 16:19 Swoopae wrote:
Actually, Huk, Kane and Welmu all know what it is like to be a progamer on TV and they've all gone on the record as saying it's likely in their opinions that the match was fixed. From memory Rekrul was an active top level SC1 pro as well. Yes, it's possible there's another plausible explanation but we haven't heard it yet if it exists Can you tell me, when have Kane and Welmu played as pros on tv :D I think they totally gone out of their bounds, because if shitty play is proof of macth throwing, Welmu, Kane and Huk must have made themselves all of mafia-money these last 4 years. How can't a so-called proplayer see the all teh red lights and refrain posting that kind of crap is beyond my understanding...
Did you watch / read what they had to say? Or are you just basing this post on their conclusion and nothing else?
On March 28 2015 02:15 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 02:09 Saechiis wrote:
Quoting one sentence out of context and then responding with "speechless" as a means of harvesting cheap internet high fives. I wish you'd keep that shit to Facebook and actually respond to the point I was trying to make since you seem to disagree with it.
Fact is that kespa hasn't responded to MKP's alledged matchfixing nor the "shady" voided Pinnacle bets. I hypothesized why that could be from kespa's POV, it's a bit easy to paint me as a bad person for saying the survival of SC2 is a higher priority than having it clean at this point and then keep it at that like you've made an actual point. Yea I thought about including the entire quote with bolded emphasis, but thought the bolded part didn't highlight enough. Fixed now. Still, I think people like you are part of the problem. Sorry mate.
You completely missed his point. He wasn't speaking for himself, he was trying to get inside KeSPA's head. So no, people like him are not part of the problem.
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On March 28 2015 03:39 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 02:15 Jarree wrote:On March 28 2015 02:09 Saechiis wrote:
Quoting one sentence out of context and then responding with "speechless" as a means of harvesting cheap internet high fives. I wish you'd keep that shit to Facebook and actually respond to the point I was trying to make since you seem to disagree with it.
Fact is that kespa hasn't responded to MKP's alledged matchfixing nor the "shady" voided Pinnacle bets. I hypothesized why that could be from kespa's POV, it's a bit easy to paint me as a bad person for saying the survival of SC2 is a higher priority than having it clean at this point and then keep it at that like you've made an actual point. Yea I thought about including the entire quote with bolded emphasis, but thought the bolded part didn't highlight enough. Fixed now. Still, I think people like you are part of the problem. Sorry mate. You completely missed his point. He wasn't speaking for himself, he was trying to get inside KeSPA's head. So no, people like him are not part of the problem.
Well he wrote twice that he means it himself, so dunno. He did edit the other post later though, adding he meant Kespa's pov. I replied before that.
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On March 27 2015 05:35 Doodsmack wrote:
If sports betting were to go away, the world would be a better place.
Ironically, if sports betting was legal in Korea, it would be much easier to find these people
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as someone who isn't up on the metagame changes after WoL, is there any reason a player would make reapers for defense or for a timing push? I know the reapers were changed a bit from wings and don't have building damage but I have a hard time thinking of any reason to build them over marines if you aren't going to scout the map or harass with them, especially when you scouted a late pool timing and know speed isn't a possibility.
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On March 28 2015 04:37 Slusher wrote:
as someone who isn't up on the metagame changes after WoL, is there any reason a player would make reapers for defense or for a timing push? I know the reapers were changed a bit from wings and don't have building damage but I have a hard time thinking of any reason to build them over marines if you aren't going to scout the map or harass with them, especially when you scouted a late pool timing and know speed isn't a possibility.
No :/
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On March 28 2015 01:04 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2015 18:00 Caihead wrote:On March 27 2015 16:47 Disarmed wrote:
Thanks Swoopae,
this is really insightful. I had no idea that there are times where you are sure to make a profit from betting on the less favourable player in a boX series.
but does that mean....if the odds were at 11-1 when the line was taken down, wouldnt it be more reasonable to bet on MK?
Like... shouldnt there logically be a massive counter-trend to bet on Mk as soon as the odds become that absurd? (aka as soon as there were the huge amounts dumped on Byul?)
Shouldnt everybody immediately jump on MK? (nvm if its match fixed or not) That's why the line movement is so absurd, because it is being moved that far despite people who should normally behave by putting money on MK. These huge sums of money were last minute right? Anyways, despite how ridiculous it sounds Kespa might just try and ignore this. The SC2 scene has never been widely supported in Korea. Acknowledgement of a match fixing scandal would likely dissipate the little support the game still has. It is unlikely Proleague would survive, putting all the teams' players and staff out of a job, not to mention void the sponsor deals that were pretty difficult to come by in the first place. Kespa has the responsibility to keep their leagues clean, but they also have the responsibility to protect their teams and employees. I feel the need to protect the SC2 scene overrules the cleanliness of the scene at this point, at least until LotV arrives and SC2 can get some new traction. I predict they'll let this blow over and come with a statement when things have a better chance of stabilising (aka not exploding).
I personally think the same, Kespa could lose alot in their SC II brand up to a point where daed gem becomes true in Korea. But still, I think these things must be punished. I mean what did the ongoing Matchfixing show the matchfixers? It works aslong you dont get too greedy and your fixing players arent to stupid to fix the games right.
It smells like a Gentlemens Agreement between Kespa and the Fixers "you fix not too obvious and we dont care at all".
And for me that sux. I stopped watching ProLeague since every mistake, every bad decision, every bad engagement, i ask myself "fix or not fix". And that sucks.
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On March 28 2015 03:22 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 03:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On March 28 2015 03:05 TRaFFiC wrote:
The point has already been brought up here and on reddit. If MKP is guilty b/c of the betting line irregularities, so are all the other players implicated. You can't cherry pick.
It is really difficult to know who was in and who wasn't on this. For certain, whoever bet the big money was, and MK (you can remove the P from this name) obviously was because he purposely threw the match. Finding out who else knows is very difficult. "whoever bet the big money" Do we have the details of how much money was bet on each player in question? Assuming we did, does more money bet on a player make him more guilty? No. From my understanding, this has nothing to do the total amount. It's the ratios in the bet. Saying "obvious" doesn't make any statement true. It's obvious to me God doesn't exist, but most people would not agree.
Thank God I'm not the only one who is very annoyed by the constant use of "obvious" by many posters to prove their point. Saying that this is obvious is just obnoxious and holds 0 argumentative value, guys.
That being said, I do agree that the main indicator of match-fixing are the betting lines, not the game.
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EPT
