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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On January 21 2015 06:55 KingAlphard wrote:
I already felt like Protoss was doing well in lategame versus Swarm host/Corruptor /Viper as long as the protoss player stayed on even or more bases.
If Swarm hosts are nerfed like that (in the ultra lategame, since you can't really harass at that stage) then it might really become impossible for zerg to win.
IMO this address more lower leagues than pros.
I think I am pretty good against SH PvZ style, but on some maps it is impossible to win. How it works in lower leagues:
You build HUGE amount of static D and 20-ish SH. You burrow SH, leave them with static D, aim locusts and FORGET!!!! Then you control your army and attack on a different location. Since you cannot defend 2 places at the same time you will be overrun in a long game. I am talking about 40 spores, 40 spines or more. I usually win, but there are scenarios where I lose - like when I have to mine on the other side of the map(main is undefended OR new mining place is undefended).
Again, this is mainly problem in lower leagues, my example is from Diamond EU. And as I said, I feel pretty confident against this style, but when the map is huge(Inferno Pools), or can be easily divided(Overgrowth), or you can switch the locust stream easily(Daybreak(I think)), it is huge problem and IMO it is zergs game to lose(wrong viper usage, kamikaze vipers, too much energy on vipers(feedback) etc.).
I do not think this is huge problem on pro scene, at least I have not seen any huge problems repeating frequently.
Edit> Please, please, realize that I am exaggerating. You cannot "forget" them per se ,-)
Edit 2> I usually win by doing herO style(in my Diamond way low APM lulz miss clicking style  ), 2 warp prisms(or pylon + WP) and warping tons of zealots to reset the tech repeatedly, killing bases, killing creep. I can only recommend this.
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On January 21 2015 07:27 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 07:14 vhapter wrote:
Like locusts actually need a buff... they've always been beefy as fuck. Much more than they ever needed. And we've already seen how a single swarm of flying locusts alone is capable of taking down a nexus, so what's the purpose of further "testing" this lame change when it's clearly not balanced? To... balance it?
lol classic pessimistic user response to literally every balance test blizzard does... "this isnt perfect yet, so why even bother?! blizzard cant do anything right so this will fail too! this is why sc2 is dead!"
people love to whine, it's in our nature
On January 21 2015 07:27 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 06:55 KingAlphard wrote:
I already felt like Protoss was doing well in lategame versus Swarm host/Corruptor /Viper as long as the protoss player stayed on even or more bases.
If Swarm hosts are nerfed like that (in the ultra lategame, since you can't really harass at that stage) then it might really become impossible for zerg to win. IMO this address more lower leagues than pros. I think I am pretty good against SH PvZ style, but on some maps it is impossible to win. How it works in lower leagues: You build HUGE amount of static D and 20-ish SH. You burrow SH, leave them with static D, aim locusts and FORGET!!!! Then you control your army and attack on a different location. Since you cannot defend 2 places at the same time you will be overrun in a long game. I am talking about 40 spores, 40 spines or more. I usually win, but there are scenarios where I lose - like when I have to mine on the other side of the map(main is undefended OR new mining place is undefended). Again, this is mainly problem in lower leagues, my example is from Diamond EU. And as I said, I feel pretty confident against this style, but when the map is huge(Inferno Pools), or can be easily divided(Overgrowth), or you can switch the locust stream easily(Daybreak(I think)), it is huge problem and IMO it is zergs game to lose(wrong viper usage, kamikaze vipers, too much energy on vipers(feedback) etc.). I do not think this is huge problem on pro scene, at least I have not seen any huge problems repeating frequently.
i see your point but i don't agree with you that SH is broken at lower levels, i am diamond zerg and for every SH turtle game i've easily won by starving out protoss i've also played one where i fucked up my swarm host positioning and the protoss literally just walked on top of all 20-30 and killed them for free, or destroyed all my tech and economy with zealot harass. i agree that it was a design problem that made for bad games, but you're overstating the idea that zergs can just "autowin" without thinking or doing anything skillful.
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Love the initiative, but here is one thing:
It doesn't matter if PDD is 5seconds or 1000seconds for anything but current swarm hosts in ZvT.
You engage with hydralisks? PDD. 20seconds, 5seconds, 1000seconds, the limit is its energy here.
You engage with mutalisks? PDD. 20seconds, 5seconds, 1000seconds, the limit is its energy here.
You engage with queens? PDD. 20seconds, 5seconds, 1000seconds, the limit is its energy here.
You engage with Corruptors? PDD. 20seconds, 5seconds, 1000seconds, the limit is its energy here.
It doesn't matter for all the combat units. If after 20seconds of combat the PDD runs out with energy on it, that just means the Terran has had a quadrillion of Ravens and too much energy to begin with.
The only thing that is effected is the "old" implementation of the swarm host, which will fight multiple times under the same PDD.
For all other units it is running in, taking tank shots, PDDs get placed and then you have to commit or you have taken a thousand damage from tank shots.
That being said with the Swarm Host redesign noone can say how ZvMech will look like to begin with. And for ZvP, this could completely break the matchup in one way or another. It's great, and interesting. Finally, blizzard is taking a risk for the sake of improving the game!
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On January 21 2015 06:42 Seiniyta wrote:
David Kim dropping a Megaton here. Pretty reassuring as they realize that swarm host is in such dire straits design wise that waiting for an expansion is too long.
I do remember when Dustin Browder told us that the Swarm Host was going to be an offensive unit to allow Zerg to end the game in the mid-game if they got ahead right before the HOTS Beta.
Right around that same time, David Kim called the Siege Tank boring.
Good thing they didn't create a boring unit in the Swarm Host.
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So what's the ETA on this rolling out?
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On January 21 2015 07:32 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So what's the ETA on this rolling out?
Soon™
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Blizzard is actually listening, that's so nice.
I hope we see more good changes in the future and in LotV!
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They only want to adress SH vs Mech with PDD change I think.
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Interesting. Nice to see LotV changes coming faster than the game itself. On the other hand I loved the tactical and long games (ofc not the few hours ones ;] ), hope we will still observe some. ^^
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On January 21 2015 07:29 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 07:27 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 21 2015 07:14 vhapter wrote:
Like locusts actually need a buff... they've always been beefy as fuck. Much more than they ever needed. And we've already seen how a single swarm of flying locusts alone is capable of taking down a nexus, so what's the purpose of further "testing" this lame change when it's clearly not balanced? To... balance it? lol classic pessimistic user response to literally every balance test blizzard does... "this isnt perfect yet, so why even bother?! blizzard cant do anything right so this will fail too! this is why sc2 is dead!" people love to whine, it's in our nature Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 07:27 deacon.frost wrote:On January 21 2015 06:55 KingAlphard wrote:
I already felt like Protoss was doing well in lategame versus Swarm host/Corruptor /Viper as long as the protoss player stayed on even or more bases.
If Swarm hosts are nerfed like that (in the ultra lategame, since you can't really harass at that stage) then it might really become impossible for zerg to win. IMO this address more lower leagues than pros. I think I am pretty good against SH PvZ style, but on some maps it is impossible to win. How it works in lower leagues: You build HUGE amount of static D and 20-ish SH. You burrow SH, leave them with static D, aim locusts and FORGET!!!! Then you control your army and attack on a different location. Since you cannot defend 2 places at the same time you will be overrun in a long game. I am talking about 40 spores, 40 spines or more. I usually win, but there are scenarios where I lose - like when I have to mine on the other side of the map(main is undefended OR new mining place is undefended). Again, this is mainly problem in lower leagues, my example is from Diamond EU. And as I said, I feel pretty confident against this style, but when the map is huge(Inferno Pools), or can be easily divided(Overgrowth), or you can switch the locust stream easily(Daybreak(I think)), it is huge problem and IMO it is zergs game to lose(wrong viper usage, kamikaze vipers, too much energy on vipers(feedback) etc.). I do not think this is huge problem on pro scene, at least I have not seen any huge problems repeating frequently. i see your point but i don't agree with you that SH is broken at lower levels, i am diamond zerg and for every SH turtle game i've easily won by starving out protoss i've also played one where i fucked up my swarm host positioning and the protoss literally just walked on top of all 20-30 and killed them for free, or destroyed all my tech and economy with zealot harass. i agree that it was a design problem that made for bad games, but you're overstating the idea that zergs can just "autowin" without thinking or doing anything skillful.
Read my edits, I realized it is not spoken so you cannot see I am exaggerating ,-) I agree with your points, it is not autowin, but it is easier to do multiprong attacks with SH than with Protoss or Terran because SH have autocast. Even turning off the autocast could be enough ,-)
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On January 21 2015 07:30 Big J wrote:
Love the initiative, but here is one thing:
It doesn't matter if PDD is 5seconds or 1000seconds for anything but current swarm hosts in ZvT.
You engage with hydralisks? PDD. 20seconds, 5seconds, 1000seconds, the limit is its energy here.
You engage with mutalisks? PDD. 20seconds, 5seconds, 1000seconds, the limit is its energy here.
You engage with queens? PDD. 20seconds, 5seconds, 1000seconds, the limit is its energy here.
You engage with Corruptors? PDD. 20seconds, 5seconds, 1000seconds, the limit is its energy here.
It doesn't matter for all the combat units. If after 20seconds of combat the PDD runs out with energy on it, that just means the Terran has had a quadrillion of Ravens and too much energy to begin with.
The only thing that is effected is the "old" implementation of the swarm host, which will fight multiple times under the same PDD.
For all other units it is running in, taking tank shots, PDDs get placed and then you have to commit or you have taken a thousand damage from tank shots.
That being said with the Swarm Host redesign noone can say how ZvMech will look like to begin with. And for ZvP, this could completely break the matchup in one way or another. It's great, and interesting. Finally, blizzard is taking a risk for the sake of improving the game!
So what you're saying is that an energy nerf would be far more useful?
I had the interesting idea of dropping Raven max energy to 100 and decreasing the cost of all their spells by half, both to make them effectively gain energy faster, and to make it so that they don't die to a feedback, making them usable against Protoss. It makes the Raven a "faster", more dynamic unit, and increases its non-turtle utility.
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Russian Federation262 Posts
Wow: dropped out
SC2: entered again besides hs and hots
and holy **** blizzard is awesome! Saving esports!
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Well, since they announced the SH change I look more at campaign units, and I think that they just picked up the wrong strain. Flying locuts are probably going to be destructive in terms of game balance: hard to defend, demand heavy AA, no cost. And they want to apply that + giving more speed to the spawning unit. What about no?
At least via ground is quite defendable. Even if Thors and terran mech could be viable because thors would kill them so easily (positive point), that makes also Ravens quite innefective. The change could be very interesting, but balance then would be really tight. Flying locust also override Broodlords since they are more mobile, have lots of damage, cheaper and low risk.
IMAO they should buff Broodlords in terms of mobility/range, reduce Locust lifetime and adjust cooldown, and then discuss about functionality. The Carrion SH strain from the campaign, with the bonus speed and control, is more tactical. Just adjust the Deep tunnel range. Reinforce at various points, spawn creep, some tumor, and the turtling is gone.
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On January 21 2015 07:35 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 07:30 Big J wrote:
Love the initiative, but here is one thing:
It doesn't matter if PDD is 5seconds or 1000seconds for anything but current swarm hosts in ZvT.
You engage with hydralisks? PDD. 20seconds, 5seconds, 1000seconds, the limit is its energy here.
You engage with mutalisks? PDD. 20seconds, 5seconds, 1000seconds, the limit is its energy here.
You engage with queens? PDD. 20seconds, 5seconds, 1000seconds, the limit is its energy here.
You engage with Corruptors? PDD. 20seconds, 5seconds, 1000seconds, the limit is its energy here.
It doesn't matter for all the combat units. If after 20seconds of combat the PDD runs out with energy on it, that just means the Terran has had a quadrillion of Ravens and too much energy to begin with.
The only thing that is effected is the "old" implementation of the swarm host, which will fight multiple times under the same PDD.
For all other units it is running in, taking tank shots, PDDs get placed and then you have to commit or you have taken a thousand damage from tank shots.
That being said with the Swarm Host redesign noone can say how ZvMech will look like to begin with. And for ZvP, this could completely break the matchup in one way or another. It's great, and interesting. Finally, blizzard is taking a risk for the sake of improving the game! So what you're saying is that an energy nerf would be far more useful? I had the interesting idea of dropping Raven max energy to 100 and decreasing the cost of all their spells by half, both to make them effectively gain energy faster, and to make it so that they don't die to a feedback, making them usable against Protoss. It makes the Raven a "faster", more dynamic unit, and increases its non-turtle utility.
Energy nerf is an example. In general I don't think anyone enjoys any game situation in which a lot of PDDs can be dropped at once, it just renders certain units completely useless the moment this game situation arises.
Personally, I'd like to have it get overkill in a way that if multiple PDDs overlap in radius, they all lose energy for each projectile one takes down*. Therefore, the good early-midgame relations with e.g. marauders or vikings would change at all, but the mass PDD bullshit would turn inefficient.
*I do understand that this is hard to realize, since the way that multiple radii work, a projectile only ever touches the radius of a single PDD. But maybe there is a way, like the PDDs just connect if one is within the radius of another.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
Was there any different balance update which was so positively accepted? oO I cannot remember one... (though I have a memory of goldfish :D)
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YES PLEASE EXPERIMENT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.
BTW Still saying the Lillekanin drama has nothing to do with the playstyle?
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On January 21 2015 07:42 deacon.frost wrote:
Was there any different balance update which was so positively accepted? oO I cannot remember one... (though I have a memory of goldfish :D)
This is even more popular than the bunker build time increase by 5 seconds.
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So, Terran going mech has now 0 counters to Tempests?
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On January 21 2015 07:14 Shinespark wrote:
I've always hated the swarm host and a redesign is probably a good idea. But the mere fact that this may be necessary is testament to how clueless Blizzard is when it comes to design.
Or it's a testament that people make mistakes, even Blizzard, and they are more than willing to correct theirs.
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On January 21 2015 07:42 deacon.frost wrote:
Was there any different balance update which was so positively accepted? oO I cannot remember one... (though I have a memory of goldfish :D)
The patch where the Warhound got cut?
This isn't a balance patch though, it's a game design patch. That goes a long way to explaining why it's being received so well. No one knows yet who comes out on top in what MU. People would be more partisan if they could see the future, I imagine.
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EPT
