|
On January 29 2015 23:45 klup wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2015 18:58 ZAiNs wrote:On January 29 2015 17:37 klup wrote:
To be fair, if they nerf both Raven and SH, they fricking absolutely need to redesign Tempest as well. This unit tbh has been only used to fight stalemate stupid situations that we will not have anymore because of the 2 nerfs/redesign.
The major problem with the tempest is that it hardcounter so much big air units that by its sole existence in the game it forbid the use of CattleBruiser and BroodLord. Not to mention that protoss army has enough of good units to deals with those already with the buffed skillray.
Yea because Zerg never make Brood Lords any more at all! And Terrans were making so many BCs vs Protoss before HotS came out! Removing/Redesigning tempest opens possibilities. With this no brain unit that sole purpose is to hard counter mech and air terran you just narrow more the path of choice in this matchup and in ZvP matchup too with broodlord. That unit is silly and need a complete redesign. The problem with protoss is that they have already a capital ship a quick fighter/harass and a support/harass air unit and a standard multipurpose air unit. Hard to find a role for the tempest in that suiss knife army.
This, this and a thousand times this. The tempest would never have existed had we got a fully-fledged carrier at release. REMOVE THAT UNIT. Blizzard, please. Who loves the tempest except Rotterdam when he proxies them ? And frankly, proxy carrier sounds just as fun and would be just as good if carrier didn't take five hours to produce. Remove tempests, and give the carrier the capital ship role it should never have ceased to fulfill -reducing production time would pretty much do the trick. Carriers are so much more exciting than tempests, not to mention how beautiful they are and the nostalgic feeling they convey.
|
On January 30 2015 01:55 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2015 23:56 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 29 2015 18:58 ZAiNs wrote:On January 29 2015 17:37 klup wrote:
To be fair, if they nerf both Raven and SH, they fricking absolutely need to redesign Tempest as well. This unit tbh has been only used to fight stalemate stupid situations that we will not have anymore because of the 2 nerfs/redesign.
The major problem with the tempest is that it hardcounter so much big air units that by its sole existence in the game it forbid the use of CattleBruiser and BroodLord. Not to mention that protoss army has enough of good units to deals with those already with the buffed skillray.
Yea because Zerg never make Brood Lords any more at all! And Terrans were making so many BCs vs Protoss before HotS came out! ZvP Broodlords have a very short time frame to work because you have the tech to 1 shot them if you scout the Greater Spire early before they actually hit the field........ Broodlords are an interesting unit and the LOTV redesigns will make them more usable. As for TvP, part of the reason BCs aren't used is mech being bad. Other part is it being a very poor lategame transition. If BCs are to be used in TvP they have to either: 1)Make them immune to feedback 2)Get rid of the energy and make Yamato a cool down ability The fact that you can lose half the health 400/300 unit in a couple of seconds by a 25 energy ability is just too much, even if you have ghost it just take 1 feedback, and then a couple of storms finish the job. BCs were countered by HT long before they were countered by tempest.
Ghost are superior to HT in the caster v caster fight, especially in higher numbers.
Feedback is 50 energy
BC loses closer to 1/3 of it's HP if it takes a FULL Feedback, which it never should. It takes ~20% damage if it has a Yamato.
You are exaggerating. BC aren't used because they are way to easy to counter for how hard it is to get them. That counter is mainly the Tempest - not the HT.
|
On January 30 2015 02:27 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 01:55 Lexender wrote:On January 29 2015 23:56 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 29 2015 18:58 ZAiNs wrote:On January 29 2015 17:37 klup wrote:
To be fair, if they nerf both Raven and SH, they fricking absolutely need to redesign Tempest as well. This unit tbh has been only used to fight stalemate stupid situations that we will not have anymore because of the 2 nerfs/redesign.
The major problem with the tempest is that it hardcounter so much big air units that by its sole existence in the game it forbid the use of CattleBruiser and BroodLord. Not to mention that protoss army has enough of good units to deals with those already with the buffed skillray.
Yea because Zerg never make Brood Lords any more at all! And Terrans were making so many BCs vs Protoss before HotS came out! ZvP Broodlords have a very short time frame to work because you have the tech to 1 shot them if you scout the Greater Spire early before they actually hit the field........ Broodlords are an interesting unit and the LOTV redesigns will make them more usable. As for TvP, part of the reason BCs aren't used is mech being bad. Other part is it being a very poor lategame transition. If BCs are to be used in TvP they have to either: 1)Make them immune to feedback 2)Get rid of the energy and make Yamato a cool down ability The fact that you can lose half the health 400/300 unit in a couple of seconds by a 25 energy ability is just too much, even if you have ghost it just take 1 feedback, and then a couple of storms finish the job. BCs were countered by HT long before they were countered by tempest. Ghost are superior to HT in the caster v caster fight, especially in higher numbers. Feedback is 50 energy BC loses closer to 1/3 of it's HP if it takes a FULL Feedback, which it never should. It takes ~20% damage if it has a Yamato. You are exaggerating. BC aren't used because they are way to easy to counter for how hard it is to get them. That counter is mainly the Tempest - not the HT.
WoL BC vs Protoss was quite rare too though. I think it is just very hard to get them out in the first place because before you have many of them they are hardly a combat factor. Their dps is lower than MMMVG and their tanking abilities hardly come into play since the Protoss will mainly fight everything else first and then clean up the few BCs with Stalker/Templar. Assuming they havent been sniped for free beforehand because the BCs cannot keep up with MMMVG maneuvering, exposing them against Templar/Stalker to begin with.
You can try and fail a lot of drops and pokes before you can argue that going BC instead of just trying to keep the Protoss down and busy would have been better.
And even when you get that BC mass that you need to force the opponent to waste dps on those 550HP/6armor monsters, they will have Tempests/VRs so you need Ravens, so after your transitioning phase against standard Protoss units you need another transitioning phase to just prevent the counters from destroying you.
I think the design of the BC shows why any form of AtA/AtG capital ship just isn't exciting. The unit design only makes sense if you cannot be countered by an easypeasy lowtech techswitch (like back into Marines - the bane of Carrier tech). But it also cannot be so powerful that it easypeasy gives you freewins if your opponent doesn't have hightech AtA, as you cannot expect an opponent to have specialist counters before you actually have the unit he needs to counter. So all those units (BL/Carrier/BC) need critical masses to withstand GtA - and in return need very hard counters to prevent a mass of them just being a freewin. Which means they often don't work because you cannot transition into them, or they give the opponent so much time that he can hardcounter them easily. Which then means it becomes a deathball match of countering the counters and balling everything up (Skyterran, WoL BL/Infestor/Corruptor, Protoss deathball). Colossi also lead to that because they work similarily (need 3+ Colossi, so a long transition time. Need to counter the counters and protect the colossi --> deathball).
|
After that absolutely disgusting Destiny vs Ruff showmatch I'm glad this is finally happening. Go Blizzard, better late than never I guess.
On January 30 2015 02:27 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2015 23:45 klup wrote:
Removing/Redesigning tempest opens possibilities. With this no brain unit that sole purpose is to hard counter mech and air terran you just narrow more the path of choice in this matchup and in ZvP matchup too with broodlord. That unit is silly and need a complete redesign. The problem with protoss is that they have already a capital ship a quick fighter/harass and a support/harass air unit and a standard multipurpose air unit. Hard to find a role for the tempest in that suiss knife army. This, this and a thousand times this. The tempest would never have existed had we got a fully-fledged carrier at release. REMOVE THAT UNIT. Blizzard, please. Who loves the tempest except Rotterdam when he proxies them ? And frankly, proxy carrier sounds just as fun and would be just as good if carrier didn't take five hours to produce. Remove tempests, and give the carrier the capital ship role it should never have ceased to fulfill -reducing production time would pretty much do the trick. Carriers are so much more exciting than tempests, not to mention how beautiful they are and the nostalgic feeling they convey.
Agreed. The Tempest itself, besides effectively siphoning the Carrier's gas in the middle of the night by being a massive diverted power sink, nerfs the already crippled Carrier in PvP by way of extra damage to massive as well. The Tempest is not only an asshole, it's a traitor.
|
On January 30 2015 02:41 Arghmyliver wrote:
The Tempest is not only an asshole, it's a traitor.
I like the way you phrased it 
|
|
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 30 2015 03:00 woopr wrote:
really disappointing to see blizzard still trying to salvage the swarmhost
it needs to be removed
Nope. I love SH. Pretty cool unit.
|
On January 30 2015 03:10 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 03:00 woopr wrote:
really disappointing to see blizzard still trying to salvage the swarmhost
it needs to be removed Nope. I love SH. Pretty cool unit.
Along with tempest and raven it makes everything exciting!
|
On January 30 2015 03:12 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 03:10 Existor wrote:On January 30 2015 03:00 woopr wrote:
really disappointing to see blizzard still trying to salvage the swarmhost
it needs to be removed Nope. I love SH. Pretty cool unit. Along with tempest and raven it makes everything exciting!
I think the concept is interesting, it just doesn't fit into the rest of the game. Most of the people were very positively excited towards the swarm host since they first showcased it in 2011.
It's very hard to find a place in which the Swarm Host, that has a very flat "action curve" - hence it always creates action, but never a lot - is exciting when everything else in the game has an action curve that is at 0 for most of the time, and then spikes very high for a few moments, to go back to 0 shortly afterwards (or be dead).
|
On January 30 2015 02:27 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2015 23:45 klup wrote:On January 29 2015 18:58 ZAiNs wrote:On January 29 2015 17:37 klup wrote:
To be fair, if they nerf both Raven and SH, they fricking absolutely need to redesign Tempest as well. This unit tbh has been only used to fight stalemate stupid situations that we will not have anymore because of the 2 nerfs/redesign.
The major problem with the tempest is that it hardcounter so much big air units that by its sole existence in the game it forbid the use of CattleBruiser and BroodLord. Not to mention that protoss army has enough of good units to deals with those already with the buffed skillray.
Yea because Zerg never make Brood Lords any more at all! And Terrans were making so many BCs vs Protoss before HotS came out! Removing/Redesigning tempest opens possibilities. With this no brain unit that sole purpose is to hard counter mech and air terran you just narrow more the path of choice in this matchup and in ZvP matchup too with broodlord. That unit is silly and need a complete redesign. The problem with protoss is that they have already a capital ship a quick fighter/harass and a support/harass air unit and a standard multipurpose air unit. Hard to find a role for the tempest in that suiss knife army. This, this and a thousand times this. The tempest would never have existed had we got a fully-fledged carrier at release. REMOVE THAT UNIT. Blizzard, please. Who loves the tempest except Rotterdam when he proxies them ? And frankly, proxy carrier sounds just as fun and would be just as good if carrier didn't take five hours to produce. Remove tempests, and give the carrier the capital ship role it should never have ceased to fulfill -reducing production time would pretty much do the trick. Carriers are so much more exciting than tempests, not to mention how beautiful they are and the nostalgic feeling they convey.
The existence of the Tempest is really a testament to the lack of skill with the SC2 dev team. The whole concept of the unit has been silly from the start. It currently has no reason to exist other than making the game less diverse and interesting. You care about the carrier, the battlecruiser, and broodlords? Too bad. Here's a unit that takes no micro and fills an already filled role, and hardcounters them all. For no reason! Have fun.
With this no brain unit that sole purpose is to hard counter mech and air terran you just narrow more the path of choice in this matchup and in ZvP matchup too with broodlord. That unit is silly and need a complete redesign. The problem with protoss is that they have already a capital ship a quick fighter/harass and a support/harass air unit and a standard multipurpose air unit. Hard to find a role for the tempest in that suiss knife army.
|
On January 30 2015 02:27 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2015 23:45 klup wrote:On January 29 2015 18:58 ZAiNs wrote:On January 29 2015 17:37 klup wrote:
To be fair, if they nerf both Raven and SH, they fricking absolutely need to redesign Tempest as well. This unit tbh has been only used to fight stalemate stupid situations that we will not have anymore because of the 2 nerfs/redesign.
The major problem with the tempest is that it hardcounter so much big air units that by its sole existence in the game it forbid the use of CattleBruiser and BroodLord. Not to mention that protoss army has enough of good units to deals with those already with the buffed skillray.
Yea because Zerg never make Brood Lords any more at all! And Terrans were making so many BCs vs Protoss before HotS came out! Removing/Redesigning tempest opens possibilities. With this no brain unit that sole purpose is to hard counter mech and air terran you just narrow more the path of choice in this matchup and in ZvP matchup too with broodlord. That unit is silly and need a complete redesign. The problem with protoss is that they have already a capital ship a quick fighter/harass and a support/harass air unit and a standard multipurpose air unit. Hard to find a role for the tempest in that suiss knife army. This, this and a thousand times this. The tempest would never have existed had we got a fully-fledged carrier at release. REMOVE THAT UNIT. Blizzard, please. Who loves the tempest except Rotterdam when he proxies them ? And frankly, proxy carrier sounds just as fun and would be just as good if carrier didn't take five hours to produce. Remove tempests, and give the carrier the capital ship role it should never have ceased to fulfill -reducing production time would pretty much do the trick. Carriers are so much more exciting than tempests, not to mention how beautiful they are and the nostalgic feeling they convey.
I agree. Reducing the carrier's build time slightly and maybe even giving them an extra 1 base armor (which is what the bw carrier had) would give them a lot more viability. Then you can just kill the Tempest.
|
On January 30 2015 02:27 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 01:55 Lexender wrote:On January 29 2015 23:56 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 29 2015 18:58 ZAiNs wrote:On January 29 2015 17:37 klup wrote:
To be fair, if they nerf both Raven and SH, they fricking absolutely need to redesign Tempest as well. This unit tbh has been only used to fight stalemate stupid situations that we will not have anymore because of the 2 nerfs/redesign.
The major problem with the tempest is that it hardcounter so much big air units that by its sole existence in the game it forbid the use of CattleBruiser and BroodLord. Not to mention that protoss army has enough of good units to deals with those already with the buffed skillray.
Yea because Zerg never make Brood Lords any more at all! And Terrans were making so many BCs vs Protoss before HotS came out! ZvP Broodlords have a very short time frame to work because you have the tech to 1 shot them if you scout the Greater Spire early before they actually hit the field........ Broodlords are an interesting unit and the LOTV redesigns will make them more usable. As for TvP, part of the reason BCs aren't used is mech being bad. Other part is it being a very poor lategame transition. If BCs are to be used in TvP they have to either: 1)Make them immune to feedback 2)Get rid of the energy and make Yamato a cool down ability The fact that you can lose half the health 400/300 unit in a couple of seconds by a 25 energy ability is just too much, even if you have ghost it just take 1 feedback, and then a couple of storms finish the job. BCs were countered by HT long before they were countered by tempest. Ghost are superior to HT in the caster v caster fight, especially in higher numbers. Feedback is 50 energy BC loses closer to 1/3 of it's HP if it takes a FULL Feedback, which it never should. It takes ~20% damage if it has a Yamato. You are exaggerating. BC aren't used because they are way to easy to counter for how hard it is to get them. That counter is mainly the Tempest - not the HT.
Ok I always mess up with the feed back my bad , also a Battlecruiser has 200 energy and 550 HP so its somewhere in between 1/2 and 1/3 of its HP, also no I didn't take ghost out of the equation.
The thing here is, there no need for the BC to have energy, the biggest reason the sky terran/raven deathball isn't used in TvP is mainly the HT and only secondly the tempest, as many people point out HT+Tempest is the strongest composition of protoss and the reason SH existed, ravens follow shortly, while BC has many (MANY) other things that counter them they're still a capital ship and while awful they even see the ligh in TvT/TvZ from time to time, because they are strong and even if easy to counter can offer a lot of power (more than once I've seen BCs win a game in TvT, mostly bio vs mech) protoss already has a lot of unit that can deal with the BC in a strong way, but (with the exception of the tempest) the BC has the ability to fight back (with yamatos they can even fight well against an equal supply of void rays), the HT doesn't allows them to do this and while I think that the ghost is really strong one of the strongest terran units (they're fucking expensive after all) I really dislike the way they work with mech. With bio the ghost is very important but a ghostless army of bio is still capable of holding is own, with mech you depend too much on them, HT, archons and immortals are already very strong even with ghost in the mix, but without ghost a mech/sky army is simply incapable of winning, every non-bio unit in the terran structure is WAY too dependant in the ghost to work, wich is really awful design.
TL;DR: the BC is already countered by everything, but the feedback is just too much, and as other point out the HT WAS the WoL way of countering them. (Mvp vs Squirtle was a good showing of this, sure there the archon toilet back in the day, but even now archons and HT counter sky terran way too easily)
|
On January 30 2015 03:50 robopork wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 02:27 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 29 2015 23:45 klup wrote:On January 29 2015 18:58 ZAiNs wrote:On January 29 2015 17:37 klup wrote:
To be fair, if they nerf both Raven and SH, they fricking absolutely need to redesign Tempest as well. This unit tbh has been only used to fight stalemate stupid situations that we will not have anymore because of the 2 nerfs/redesign.
The major problem with the tempest is that it hardcounter so much big air units that by its sole existence in the game it forbid the use of CattleBruiser and BroodLord. Not to mention that protoss army has enough of good units to deals with those already with the buffed skillray.
Yea because Zerg never make Brood Lords any more at all! And Terrans were making so many BCs vs Protoss before HotS came out! Removing/Redesigning tempest opens possibilities. With this no brain unit that sole purpose is to hard counter mech and air terran you just narrow more the path of choice in this matchup and in ZvP matchup too with broodlord. That unit is silly and need a complete redesign. The problem with protoss is that they have already a capital ship a quick fighter/harass and a support/harass air unit and a standard multipurpose air unit. Hard to find a role for the tempest in that suiss knife army. This, this and a thousand times this. The tempest would never have existed had we got a fully-fledged carrier at release. REMOVE THAT UNIT. Blizzard, please. Who loves the tempest except Rotterdam when he proxies them ? And frankly, proxy carrier sounds just as fun and would be just as good if carrier didn't take five hours to produce. Remove tempests, and give the carrier the capital ship role it should never have ceased to fulfill -reducing production time would pretty much do the trick. Carriers are so much more exciting than tempests, not to mention how beautiful they are and the nostalgic feeling they convey. I agree. Reducing the carrier's build time slightly and maybe even giving them an extra 1 base armor (which is what the bw carrier had) would give them a lot more viability. Then you can just kill the Tempest.
Lets not jump the gun. A properly micro'd carrier (leash range) has around 30 DPS at 14 range to both ground and air. The issue with this thread is not the carrier.
It's game design, and more specifically on this page, the crappy design of the Tempest how it should never exist in the first place. A redundant unit that fills an already filled role, requires no micro, and hardcounters all 3 capital ships (+ mech) out of existence.
|
Just watching the match between petraeus and iaguz, swarmhosts seem absolutely useless as they are now.
|
SH would be a lot better if the locusts didn't get a creep speed buff bonus. All that does is give them a defensive advantage, while Blizzard wanted them to be used offensively.
That, and they shouldn't benefit from upgrades, similar to the IT.
Both these changes would make SH massing a lot shittier in the lategame, but only reduce their potential marginally in the midgame if used aggressively. Of course, there needs to be shit done to the other races too to compensate as unfortunately as it stands SH is the only option in many cases.
Imo, the worst unit in the game.
|
On January 30 2015 08:16 Dwayn wrote:
Just watching the match between petraeus and iaguz, swarmhosts seem absolutely useless as they are now.
They are bugged the locust don't atack when they spawn
|
I hope Blizzard hurries up and releases this patch as soon as possible.
The current Swarm hosts are boring to watch, boring to use boring to play against. They even make Tempest seem like a well designed and interesting unit in comparison.
|
On February 08 2015 00:12 MockHamill wrote:
I hope Blizzard hurries up and releases this patch as soon as possible.
The current Swarm hosts are boring to watch, boring to use boring to play against. They even make Tempest seem like a well designed and interesting unit in comparison.
I'd rather they thoroughly test it before gambling with people's jobs, careers and income, thank you very much.
|
On February 08 2015 00:21 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2015 00:12 MockHamill wrote:
I hope Blizzard hurries up and releases this patch as soon as possible.
The current Swarm hosts are boring to watch, boring to use boring to play against. They even make Tempest seem like a well designed and interesting unit in comparison.
I'd rather they thoroughly test it before gambling with people's jobs, careers and income, thank you very much.
Sc2 is a game first and foremost. People's jobs, careers and income are ruining the fun for everyone else
|
On February 08 2015 00:12 MockHamill wrote:
I hope Blizzard hurries up and releases this patch as soon as possible.
The current Swarm hosts are boring to watch, boring to use boring to play against. They even make Tempest seem like a well designed and interesting unit in comparison.
I completely disagree. I love the current swarmhost and I'm very sad they are changing it. The current changes make the unit boring, redundant and worst of all, completely useless.
If they change the SH at they better make some serious adjustments, because in the test map right now they are too finicky and ineffective to be worth the increased cost.
I loved the deep burrow and flying locusts in the campaign... I wish they would consider using those implementations.
I also had a thought that it would be cool to change the SH into basically a unit-thrower. Load it up with ground units like a overlord and it can 'throw' them a certain distance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
