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On January 23 2015 00:52 ZenithM wrote:
You might want to consider that mass ravens aren't used against any strat other than SHs ;D
Fight the most boring of fire with, well, a lot of PDDs, as they say.
But I'm aware that some False Terrans have been using this boring style of mech without even being provoked into it by boring Zergs, so I won't cast the first stone. Just know that these are False Terrans and betray everything we manly Terrans stand for.
100% yes haha
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Ravens is a good unit a lot of people don't understand how it works but they are just going make people never use them, the big problem of the duration of PDD is its energy regeneration rato, if PDD regenerated energy at the same speed as other units mass PDD would much mch weaker.
IMO ravens should be units you want to make (basically the only terran casters that works non-TvP) they should make the change to energy regeneration of the PDD, take out durable materials, buff the movement speed of ravens, and if they still want to reduce the duration of AT/PDD, reduce it cost (-25) so mass AT/PDD is not useful but having a few ravens becomes useful in small engaments
All in all I just dislike what they are doing with raven as terran is the race where spell caster are the least used
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On January 23 2015 06:32 Lexender wrote:
Ravens is a good unit a lot of people don't understand how it works but they are just going make people never use them, the big problem of the duration of PDD is its energy regeneration rato, if PDD regenerated energy at the same speed as other units mass PDD would much mch weaker.
IMO ravens should be units you want to make (basically the only terran casters that works non-TvP) they should make the change to energy regeneration of the PDD, take out durable materials, buff the movement speed of ravens, and if they still want to reduce the duration of AT/PDD, reduce it cost (-25) so mass AT/PDD is not useful but having a few ravens becomes useful in small engaments
All in all I just dislike what they are doing with raven as terran is the race where spell caster are the least used
Not bad ideas, I do think there is a lot of room for rebalancing the raven. I think I would rather having long lasting PDDs with lower energy regeneration than PDDs that only last 20 seconds but with the weird high energy regeneration.
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I don't understand why people keep on arguing that reducing the PDD duration or the energy regeneration are the ways to go.
The only scenario where this really matters, is current swarm hosts! In all other scenarios, the PDDs come down after, I repeat AFTER the engagment has started. And it doesn't matter at all whether the PDD then lasts 20 or 180seconds. It's gonna deplete its whole energy long before 20seconds are over. And the regeneration at best gives you 1-2 more blocked shots in a long engagment.
What these changes probably do is
1) that a Terran has to micro a little harder (not excessively spam PDDs before the Zerg is really committing - something that rarely happens at the prolevel to begin with), but it doesn't change how battles play out.
and 2) "floating scenarios" in which the Terran preemptively places down a few PDDs become easier for zerg to win because of (1).
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On January 23 2015 07:12 Big J wrote:
I don't understand why people keep on arguing that reducing the PDD duration or the energy regeneration are the ways to go.
The only scenario where this really matters, is current swarm hosts! In all other scenarios, the PDDs come down after, I repeat AFTER the engagment has started. And it doesn't matter at all whether the PDD then lasts 20 or 180seconds. It's gonna deplete its whole energy long before 20seconds are over. And the regeneration at best gives you 1-2 more blocked shots in a long engagment.
What these changes probably do is
1) that a Terran has to micro a little harder (not excessively spam PDDs before the Zerg is really committing - something that rarely happens at the prolevel to begin with), but it doesn't change how battles play out.
and 2) "floating scenarios" in which the Terran preemptively places down a few PDDs become easier for zerg to win because of (1).
PDD last 180 seconds and has 200 energy, since 10= energy 1 shot, if you add durable materials wich makes PDDs last 240 seconds, after its initial 20 shots a PDD is cabaple of taking down extra 24 shots, this of course makes not so much difference in battles, if they happen around the map, but if you have mass ravens it makes a HUGE difference it gives ravens the capacity of only needing a few PDD to defend a location with still having PDD to defend another location.
Also I don't see why would someone drop the PDD after the engagement.
Nerfing the duration of the PDD so much without other changes kills the ravens and only makes them overpriced detectors
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On January 23 2015 07:27 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 07:12 Big J wrote:
I don't understand why people keep on arguing that reducing the PDD duration or the energy regeneration are the ways to go.
The only scenario where this really matters, is current swarm hosts! In all other scenarios, the PDDs come down after, I repeat AFTER the engagment has started. And it doesn't matter at all whether the PDD then lasts 20 or 180seconds. It's gonna deplete its whole energy long before 20seconds are over. And the regeneration at best gives you 1-2 more blocked shots in a long engagment.
What these changes probably do is
1) that a Terran has to micro a little harder (not excessively spam PDDs before the Zerg is really committing - something that rarely happens at the prolevel to begin with), but it doesn't change how battles play out.
and 2) "floating scenarios" in which the Terran preemptively places down a few PDDs become easier for zerg to win because of (1). PDD last 180 seconds and has 200 energy, since 10= energy 1 shot, if you add durable materials wich makes PDDs last 240 seconds, after its initial 20 shots a PDD is cabaple of taking down extra 24 shots, this of course makes not so much difference in battles, if they happen around the map, but if you have mass ravens it makes a HUGE difference it gives ravens the capacity of only needing a few PDD to defend a location with still having PDD to defend another location. Also I don't see why would someone drop the PDD after the engagement. Nerfing the duration of the PDD so much without other changes kills the ravens and only makes them overpriced detectors
I said after the engagment has started. Not after the engagment. 
It's not like "oh, Zerg is 20range away, let's put down some PDDs; damn, he is not engaging, he baited them". It's rather like "his mutas and hydralisks are within 5,6,7 range and under heavy fire from to triple artillery combo, let's put down some PDDs. If he disengages now I have traded 375energy for 20units. Cool deal."
Again, the only time that really matters is if I can constantly siege you with something that is out of range of your triple artillery. That is current Swarm Hosts. With the current swarm host gone, the PDD nerf is very needless (unless the new swarm host has a similar siege effect as the current one).
Of course there are rare scenarios where you put down PDDs against non-swarm host units, the Zerg disengages or remaxes and then 2mins later there are some PDDs left at that location and the zerg then cannot engage into that position. But how often does it come down to this? This is a very exotic scenario and absolutely not the point why having mass Raven is close to a win condition in TvZ currently.
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I like it!
SH and Ravens are so boring right now, so any change is good. And I love the Idea behind the new SH!
Balance, shmalance! Let's see how the testing goes.
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Test map is incoming according to battle.net. I hope they test their changes thoroughly and long before pushing them in game.
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Japan1927 Posts
Wasn't going to post in here initially but I just realized they said that PDD only last 20 seconds... my thoughts from twitter...
if PDD only last 20 seconds doesnt that make mass tempests like.... really f'ing strong in PvT late game?
The whole reason mass raven was good vs P late game was cuz if u had enough u could eventually negate the tempests with enough PDD/Energy
But if they last 20 sec then the amount of times you have to recast the spell is so much higher that they lose their overall value ....
Seems like some unintended side affects... @_@;;
Avilo will never be able to win with mech vs toss anymore xD I think this is actually a bad change if it affects Tempests vs T this much though, seems like ravens will become rather useless PvT whereas they were actually quite good if u had enough before..
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On January 29 2015 11:57 -Kyo- wrote:
Wasn't going to post in here initially but I just realized they said that PDD only last 20 seconds... my thoughts from twitter...
if PDD only last 20 seconds doesnt that make mass tempests like.... really f'ing strong in PvT late game?
The whole reason mass raven was good vs P late game was cuz if u had enough u could eventually negate the tempests with enough PDD/Energy
But if they last 20 sec then the amount of times you have to recast the spell is so much higher that they lose their overall value ....
Seems like some unintended side affects... @_@;;
Avilo will never be able to win with mech vs toss anymore xD I think this is actually a bad change if it affects Tempests vs T this much though, seems like ravens will become rather useless PvT whereas they were actually quite good if u had enough before..
Yeah, they might as well have changed the Tempest while they were at it, tbh.
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The one thing that I dislike is that tank pushes (the once in a blue moon Gumiho and others™ do them) are very dependant on raven (usually just 1), they were rare but now they will disapear :c
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Raven PDD: don't care, the main goal when facing a terran adding a ton of ravens is not to let him add a ton of ravens. This number probably won't change much.
SH: so spawn locust into a main base is effectively a basetrade/all-in invitation button? cool i guess, if a toss or terran is turtling and teching let's have the zerg 'all-in' instead of contain and punish. If that gets boring revert to muta style base trade situations. super excited...
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I'm so glad pdd has a cooldown now, the previous 3 minutes or w.e was insane.
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On January 29 2015 13:03 friendship wrote:
Raven PDD: don't care, the main goal when facing a terran adding a ton of ravens is not to let him add a ton of ravens. This number probably won't change much.
SH: so spawn locust into a main base is effectively a basetrade/all-in invitation button? cool i guess, if a toss or terran is turtling and teching let's have the zerg 'all-in' instead of contain and punish. If that gets boring revert to muta style base trade situations. super excited...
I don't know that flying locusts are going to help much in base trade situations really, I can understand where you are coming from but um...do flying locusts shoot air units? I don't think the SwarmHost change is going to make it any easier to base trade with a Terran....I mean a little but regardless, they can just lift all of there buildings off to avoid from being attacked by the locusts...
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On January 29 2015 13:52 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2015 13:03 friendship wrote:
Raven PDD: don't care, the main goal when facing a terran adding a ton of ravens is not to let him add a ton of ravens. This number probably won't change much.
SH: so spawn locust into a main base is effectively a basetrade/all-in invitation button? cool i guess, if a toss or terran is turtling and teching let's have the zerg 'all-in' instead of contain and punish. If that gets boring revert to muta style base trade situations. super excited... I don't know that flying locusts are going to help much in base trade situations really, I can understand where you are coming from but um...do flying locusts shoot air units? I don't think the SwarmHost change is going to make it any easier to base trade with a Terran....I mean a little but regardless, they can just lift all of there buildings off to avoid from being attacked by the locusts...
While you wait 60s for the next locust wave even the slowest mech army will destroy your bases or just kill your army that is lacking supply. I don´t think we have to worry about zerg´s base trading with SH.
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On January 29 2015 15:51 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2015 13:52 GGzerG wrote:On January 29 2015 13:03 friendship wrote:
Raven PDD: don't care, the main goal when facing a terran adding a ton of ravens is not to let him add a ton of ravens. This number probably won't change much.
SH: so spawn locust into a main base is effectively a basetrade/all-in invitation button? cool i guess, if a toss or terran is turtling and teching let's have the zerg 'all-in' instead of contain and punish. If that gets boring revert to muta style base trade situations. super excited... I don't know that flying locusts are going to help much in base trade situations really, I can understand where you are coming from but um...do flying locusts shoot air units? I don't think the SwarmHost change is going to make it any easier to base trade with a Terran....I mean a little but regardless, they can just lift all of there buildings off to avoid from being attacked by the locusts... While you wait 60s for the next locust wave even the slowest mech army will destroy your bases or just kill your army that is lacking supply. I don´t think we have to worry about zerg´s base trading with SH.
I don't know about that. The current SH reloads so quickly you can't even advance, so some slower time is warranted to at least get the game moving. Of course, this is a nerf, so it has to be buffed in other ways, such as the flying locust. I imagine that with flying locust, it's overall stronger, able to pick off more mech units in the meantime, forces less tanks and more antiair, thors, or WM, which means your army can now engage more cost effectively.
Keep in mind the Zerg still will engage the mech finally once the SH locusts do move in, it's not like they would ever engage separately.
Although I'm of the opinion perhaps Spawn Locusts should be a casting ability (as they are making it), but they also have their own attack. For example, they may function as an anti-air unit (still when burrowed), giving it a dual role as a weak / ambush anti-air caster. How does this help vs mech? It doesn't, but at least it seems somewhat useful when the locusts aren't present.
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On January 29 2015 15:51 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2015 13:52 GGzerG wrote:On January 29 2015 13:03 friendship wrote:
Raven PDD: don't care, the main goal when facing a terran adding a ton of ravens is not to let him add a ton of ravens. This number probably won't change much.
SH: so spawn locust into a main base is effectively a basetrade/all-in invitation button? cool i guess, if a toss or terran is turtling and teching let's have the zerg 'all-in' instead of contain and punish. If that gets boring revert to muta style base trade situations. super excited... I don't know that flying locusts are going to help much in base trade situations really, I can understand where you are coming from but um...do flying locusts shoot air units? I don't think the SwarmHost change is going to make it any easier to base trade with a Terran....I mean a little but regardless, they can just lift all of there buildings off to avoid from being attacked by the locusts... While you wait 60s for the next locust wave even the slowest mech army will destroy your bases or just kill your army that is lacking supply. I don´t think we have to worry about zerg´s base trading with SH.
or winning too many tournaments...
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Russian Federation262 Posts
On January 29 2015 16:17 SoleSteeler wrote:
So the map is out now?
I'm also wondering...
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To be fair, if they nerf both Raven and SH, they fricking absolutely need to redesign Tempest as well. This unit tbh has been only used to fight stalemate stupid situations that we will not have anymore because of the 2 nerfs/redesign.
The major problem with the tempest is that it hardcounter so much big air units that by its sole existence in the game it forbid the use of CattleBruiser and BroodLord. Not to mention that protoss army has enough of good units to deals with those already with the buffed skillray.
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EPT
