What on earth is going on?! I really appreciate that Blizzard is trying to let their decisions be partly depended on the community's criticism, but seriously: Is this all you can do Blizzard? After all that feedback about the Blizz-internal map making, all that changes is one map and those 3 incredibly uncreative, boring and especially bad designed maps are still in? I really try to understand what the reason behind this decision is, but I just can't think of anything that prevents them from picking 3 or 4 new maps having more backbone than any blizzard maps that we had to experience in all those years of Starcraft 2. I mean, you say you cannot patch or change the game design drastically due to pro players' careers and what not. Ok, I get this part. But why then, Blizzard, why do u consider having inappropriate maps in your map pool, which also influences pro level play to a really remarkable extend? Sure, there are bad maps made by the community as well. But there are also many really good ones, that are definitely better than those introduced in the current map pool. Why are you not using those resources provided by the community for free? .. I am sorry, you are.. But you could do much better in terms of maps, much better.. without any drawback (at last from my point of view).

Pokebunny

United States10654 Posts

January 07 2015 10:43 GMT

#62

I think most high level players will be happy with this.

Clonester

Germany2808 Posts

January 07 2015 12:11 GMT

#63

On January 07 2015 19:43 Pokebunny wrote:
I think most high level players will be happy with this.

Yeah and most Viewers will die in boredoom with Overgrowth, which is then played for a whole year. And not only that because every pro does not want to adept, they will play this map in every Bo1-7 out there. It is so boring, so annoying. This map is fully discovered, thousends of progames played on it and nothing happens there anymore. I cant see it, my Eyes bleed.

And then we get 3 new maps made by Blizzard which not only look really bad, they tend to annoy all players. And then they swap out Foxtrot, a pretty balanced, but unice map, where pros have to adept and use unique styles. But hey, doing something out of the comfortzone, thats bad, lets keep Overgrowth for ever and see games we have seen the whole year long.

messioso

Denmark635 Posts

January 07 2015 12:53 GMT

#64

To clarify, these are not the reasons that Blizzard made the change, but for anyone curious I kept a lot of the data regarding map selection.

Over the course of the two seasons that Overgrowth was in the WCS mappool including it's original season, it had a 21% veto rate across all WCS/IEM/Redbull tournaments.

Foxtrot on the other hand had an 80% veto rate across all three matchups and in many mirrors during it's single season, rising to 88% if we only include bo3's. It also has a staggering 91% in ZvP which is the highest recorded for a map in any matchup and if we only include bo3 series that number rises to 96%.

RHoudini

Belgium3632 Posts

January 07 2015 13:34 GMT

#65

I'm happy with the changes.
Foxtrot is horrible, Overgrowth is fine.

PharaphobiaSC2

Czech Republic85 Posts

January 07 2015 14:10 GMT

#66

On January 07 2015 18:33 -NegativeZero- wrote:

Show nested quote +

Sure BW generally has good map diversity, but they're also still playing Fighting Spirit clones in 2015. Hell, they're even still using the original Fighting Spirit.

3000 - 5000 ppl watching Bisu playing original Fighting Spirit all day almost everyday

! Its not about how old the map is its still good!

CanadianSC

Canada53 Posts

January 07 2015 14:14 GMT

#67

User was warned for this post

SatedSC2

England3012 Posts

January 07 2015 14:24 GMT

#68

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Gwavajuice

France1810 Posts

January 07 2015 14:39 GMT

#69

On January 07 2015 21:53 messioso wrote:
To clarify, these are not the reasons that Blizzard made the change, but for anyone curious I kept a lot of the data regarding map selection.

Over the course of the two seasons that Overgrowth was in the WCS mappool including it's original season, it had a 21% veto rate across all WCS/IEM/Redbull tournaments.

Foxtrot on the other hand had an 80% veto rate across all three matchups and in many mirrors during it's single season, rising to 88% if we only include bo3's. It also has a staggering 91% in ZvP which is the highest recorded for a map in any matchup and if we only include bo3 series that number rises to 96%.

thx for the insight.

Let's not forget that blizzard has also some data none of us has : the vetoing on ladder. I had Foxtrot unvetoed for a while, though almost never played on it, I wouldn't be surprised if people also massively veto it on ladder.

Really, Overgrosth is one of the most consensual map as of now, it's too risky to get rid of it.

Last, so many people seem to know how bad the 3 new maps are, I suppose they all heavily tested them with their GM friends all hollidays long.

Big J

Austria16289 Posts

January 07 2015 15:03 GMT

#70

On January 07 2015 23:39 Gwavajuice wrote:
Last, so many people seem to know how bad the 3 new maps are, I suppose they all heavily tested them with their GM friends all hollidays long.

Well, even without testing the blizzard ones look funky as hell.
Secret Spring in particular seems like a nightmare to have any form of standard metagame on. It's a conglomerate of features that are no-goes for balance reasons. Without even opening the window I can tell you that it won't ever be used in professional play. Even if by some miracle metagame star-alignment between the impossibility of counterattacks with only one tiny path, the blink nightmare cliffs, the possibility to split the map with a 2rax, the extremely zerg/terran(vsP) favored 3rd bases and the extreme early game coinflip affinity that the combination of 2p-map with singlewide ramp to the first two bases brings a stable, balanced metagame could evolve, no professional player (besides CatZ) will even think about spending hours and hours of fleshing out build orders and gameplans for one single map.
Vaani looks like a turtle paradise with a similar, yet even more defensive setup than Newkirk. If their intention is to buff zerg vs terran with maps, cloning one of the more Terran-favored maps doesn't sound like a good theory.
Inferno Pools is fucked up and depending on the spawns looks like a rush paradise or a freewin for zerg in the lategame with how exposed the thirds are and how long the rush distance is in cross. The chances of it seeing the light of tournament play are rather low as well.

padiseal2

Austria721 Posts

January 07 2015 15:18 GMT

#71

On January 07 2015 23:14 CanadianSC wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

User was warned for this post

OtherWorld

France17333 Posts

January 07 2015 15:30 GMT

#72

Out of curiosity, what are Deadwing's stats?

Zenbrez

Canada5973 Posts

January 07 2015 15:51 GMT

#73

Basically people complaining that we don't have a map pool full of daybreaks. God forbid your 3rd isn't free and a 4th that you have to defend.

johnbongham

451 Posts

January 07 2015 16:22 GMT

#74

So bored of maps in this game. Every map is just a main with a ramp and then a natural with a bigger ramp and if it isnt its just a main with a ramp and then a free natural expansion in the back. Why does there always have to be ramps? Were all sc1 maps this uniform? I feel like I have been playing the same map since this game came out.

sixfour

England11062 Posts

January 07 2015 16:29 GMT

#75

On January 07 2015 18:33 -NegativeZero- wrote:

Show nested quote +

Sure BW generally has good map diversity, but they're also still playing Fighting Spirit clones in 2015. Hell, they're even still using the original Fighting Spirit.

good maps are good maps

KingAlphard

Italy1705 Posts

January 07 2015 17:01 GMT

#76

And people say blizzard never listens to suggestions from the community.
Well done, would have hoped for King Sejong too but whatever.

KingAlphard

Italy1705 Posts

January 07 2015 17:13 GMT

#77

Also, it's so funny to see everyone here complaining about blizzard's decision. Let's take a look at this poll which was made when blizzard initially announced that they wanted to remove Overgrowth.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/473713-poll-which-maps-would-you-kick-from-last-season

Foxtrot: kick 73%, remain 27%
Overgrowth: kick 31%, remain 69%.

Looking at this thread it seems like the % are inverted.
Proof that whatever blizzard does, the community will say that they did it wrong.

SatedSC2

England3012 Posts

January 07 2015 17:14 GMT

#78

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FeyFey

Germany10114 Posts

January 07 2015 17:22 GMT

#79

Overgrowth's mapname just got cooler for me. I wonder if this season someone will manage to break the map. But I saw enough of that map as well mostly because players use this to sleep waddle through a map.

OtherWorld

France17333 Posts

January 07 2015 17:26 GMT

#80

On January 08 2015 02:14 SatedSC2 wrote:

Show nested quote +

I don't think people are bemoaning the removal of Foxtrot.

They are bemoaning the fact that shit maps are still in the map-pool.

I think so too, although Foxtrot is a legit good and balanced map. Overgrowth replacing any of the new Blizzard maps wouldn't have made a lot of people angry.