We’ve read the feedback on the 2015 Season 1 ladder map pool and wanted to announce a change we’ll be making for the upcoming season.
2015 Season 1 Ladder Overgrowth LE will replace Foxtrot Labs LE
The complete 1v1 2015 Season 1 ladder map pool will be as follows: Overgrowth LE Catallena LE Expedition Lost LE Secret Spring Vaani Research Station Inferno Pools Deadwing LE
While we typically look to remove the oldest maps in the ladder map pool to keep a fresh rotation (which would include Overgrowth LE), community feedback towards some of the Season 3 maps was less than favorable so we’ve decided to make an exception for this season and keep an older map. Going forward we’ll look to keep the map pool fresh with solid options.
Lol the less important change to make. How about you totally remove your shit maps ( talking about the new 3 blizzard maps ) and start putting a bit of passion into the ladder maps blizzard ? Also , deadwing and inferno pools are overlapping , they are both crazy big 4p maps with no interesting features.
On January 07 2015 05:02 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: ffs noooo
Overgrowth is more stable but I'm tired of that map and I feel like Foxtrot was just beginning to catch on with some pretty fun games.
They totally missed the mark. Get rid of Catellena/Deadwing or any of the new maps (excluding Expedition Lost).
I have the exact same feeling. I didn't like Foxtrot at first but these weeks the games on it have been more and more entertaining. On the other hand I've always hated overgrowth and I still hate it, this map is boring. Deadwing has no reason stay in the map pool since we have inferno pools now.
Ugh, I disagree with this decision. We've had Overgrowth since Season 2 of last year, which started in April. I think it's a very good map overall, but it becomes boring both as a spectator and a competitor to have a map in the pool for so long. Also, getting rid of Foxtrot over Deadwing is perplexing since Foxtrot was different and proved to show good games. Not saying that Deadwing hasn't but I feel the majority of people would rather see the variety that Foxtrot provides with it's multiple spawns rather than Deadwing which does feel like a stale, average macro map.
well shit my vetos were deadwing, secret springs, and catallena. but now its overgrowth, deadwing and secret springs, guess ill have to just get used to catallena lame to bad blizz will never learn. thank god im getting better at dota cause it doesnt seem like i be playing much more of these aweful maps
Lol I guess they read the feedbacks wrong. But hey Blizzard maps are Blizzard maps so they have a free ticket to the ladder without any consideration about their quality or even about the ladder's consistency (two huge 4p maps, why?)
On January 07 2015 05:22 IeZaeL wrote: Lol the less important change to make. How about you totally remove your shit maps ( talking about the new 3 blizzard maps ) and start putting a bit of passion into the ladder maps blizzard ? Also , deadwing and inferno pools are overlapping , they are both crazy big 4p maps with no interesting features.
This is the last thing we wanted. OK, probably not, they could have put Nimbus back and replaced Vaani Research Station with Steppes of War, but this just shows so much how clueless they are it's mindblowing, and quite worrisome to be perfectly honest.
A far better move would have been to replace either Inferno Pools or Secret Spring (which are bad to the point of retardedness) with Overgrowth. Not Foxtrot Labs, I'll be REALLY sad if that map goes like that for all the wrong reasons. That map is awesome.
On January 07 2015 06:01 TheDwf wrote: This has to be a joke... They're actually keeping the 4 new ones? Without ANY change? Seriously??
It indeed looks like a very bad joke, except it's not April 1st as far as I know.
The worst thing is that that dreadful set of additions will probably make the WCS map pool terrible for at least this season and the next one, because Overgrowth won't be there to save the day any more.
On January 07 2015 07:24 wUndertUnge wrote: Overgrowth? Boring. Foxtrot definitely over Deadwing. There was a tournament where that map got vetoed everytime
Happy with the decision. Overgrowth is the stable map of the pool and until another really good stable, standard map comes along, we should keep a stable one.
Just to be curious, what was so bad about foxtrot? I always found the map quite fun and balanced, don't know why it's vetoed so much. On the spawns with the huge natural ramp it's quite hard to wall for protoss but for the other spawns i don't see any problems.
On January 07 2015 07:34 [PkF] Wire wrote: LOL how can they misread so much our feedback.
Because there's no way to read it right. Everyone just posts what they think without looking at others and then refers to it as "the community's opinion".
On January 07 2015 09:04 Yonnua wrote: Happy with the decision. Overgrowth is the stable map of the pool and until another really good stable, standard map comes along, we should keep a stable one.
I'd rather they keep KSS then if it going to be one of the tired maps. It's Overgrowth but way better.
Season One just died for me. Overgrowth is so much overplayed, while FTL was still fresh and not yet fully used. I wormit when I see another Overgrowth game. I come back in Season 2 or at any Tournament without Overgrowth.
Honestly, I greatly prefer this. Obviously, it'd have been better if they replaced one of their maps with Overgrowth...
Though, I actually just want the Blizzard map-makers to permanently retire and just let the Korean pro-gamers make them, because they will always be more balanced and logical. They really make the worst maps. Almost impressive.
Why do some maps have to stay in the map pool for so long? Wouldn't it be better an entirely new map pool every season? It would diversify the game play a whole lot, in my opinion. I also wish that Blizzard would use more community maps, but that is a different argument entirely.
Okay, don't like this move. Why would you take out Foxtrot, which some people like (especially me) and leave in Deadwing which no one likes. Even the original creater of Deadwing doesn't like Deadwing anymore.
i hate overgrowth too but i dont know why you guys want to think that foxtrot was a decent map, it was really bad, worst thirds of the world, protosses all-in d all the time on that map.
This is when we need the proleague map makers to save the day by making and using new maps in proleague and convincing Blizzard to use it as official map (like how they made Neo planet S, KSS, etc)
Seems like the type of change that allows Blizzard to say: "see, we listened", without actually doing anything real. Well we'll see how these maps will do.
Actually very excited overall. A few minus points for overgrowth and catallena (habitation station, MGR and/or KSS would fit nicely in relation to the other maps) but FFS we have 3 vetos. Only new map that might need a veto is secret spring (looks kinda like a hybrid of heavy rain and antiga shipyard but that might actually be cool).
I think the new maps will create a lot of diversity in play at the very least, which might explain the negativity coming from lots of people here, what I'm seeing is a lot of "my standard builds are going to be difficult to execute and uncertainty is lame..." Probably the same people who complain that the game is stale.
Foxtrot is just too funky of a map, its random robots that get in the way of building stuff at crucial moments and its awkward base locations are just so undesirable. Yes Overgrowth has been played for a while now, but it lets you train solid macro games instead of relying on very specific strategies like Foxtrot. There are quite a few strategies that only work on that map, like San's Stargate contain PvT.
I'm glad Overgrowth is back. Yeah it's old, but it's one of the best Zerg maps and it's very dynamic imo. I don't really have a problem with any of these maps, I actually think Secret Spring is cool on paper, and the other two Blizzard maps are pretty uninspired but should be okay. People really like to complain about Blizzard maps but they are rarely THAT bad.
Foxtrot is just too funky of a map, its random robots that get in the way of building stuff at crucial moments and its awkward base locations are just so undesirable. Yes Overgrowth has been played for a while now, but it lets you train solid macro games instead of relying on very specific strategies like Foxtrot. There are quite a few strategies that only work on that map, like San's Stargate contain PvT.
You mean strategies that emerge due to map variations are inherently bad? If so I categorically disagree. To be clear I'm not a huge fan of Foxtrot or Deadwing, and as a zerg player Overgrowth was great the first XX-thousand times I played it but there's a good reason to mix things up: e.g. San's Stargate contain PvT on Foxtrot
How the hell can none of you like DeadWing? This is the best map in the entire pool IMO, it always makes for balanced / interesting and nice macro games, I really hope no Zergs are complaining about DeadWing....This is probably the best Zerg map in last seasons pool atm IMO......
Also I hate foxtrot, I am glad they are removing it...I think most people are upset at map changes every time, because most people all in / cheese every game.
I'd love to see another edition of that thing where you basically ask a bunch of various pros what their opinions are on the map changes. I'd love to hear a bunch of different views for the people it most affects.
The consistency of Blizzard's mind boggling decisions regarding the game and its competitive maps is something to inspire awe once you get past the frustration of it all. Instead of scrapping a horrible map, they just swap back and forth between which of their better maps they want to remove. Amazing.
On January 07 2015 15:30 GGzerG wrote: How the hell can none of you like DeadWing? This is the best map in the entire pool IMO, it always makes for balanced / interesting and nice macro games, I really hope no Zergs are complaining about DeadWing....This is probably the best Zerg map in last seasons pool atm IMO......
Also I hate foxtrot, I am glad they are removing it...I think most people are upset at map changes every time, because most people all in / cheese every game.
Because deadwing is an absolute disaster when it comes to making games more interactive, the map just throws bases at you while you don't even have to leave your corner of the map, and worse is that you can defend all of them by parking your deathball in the single choke that leads to them.
On January 07 2015 15:30 GGzerG wrote: How the hell can none of you like DeadWing? This is the best map in the entire pool IMO, it always makes for balanced / interesting and nice macro games, I really hope no Zergs are complaining about DeadWing....This is probably the best Zerg map in last seasons pool atm IMO......
Also I hate foxtrot, I am glad they are removing it...I think most people are upset at map changes every time, because most people all in / cheese every game.
Because deadwing is an absolute disaster when it comes to making games more interactive, the map just throws bases at you while you don't even have to leave your corner of the map, and worse is that you can defend all of them by parking your deathball in the single choke that leads to them.
Ahh well I can understand that viewpoint absolutely sir, I still feel that most of the games I've played on Deadwing are really fun / nice macro games. But I also have played some of the worst camping ZvT games on Deadwing where the Terran did nothing but camp / go mech / make 50 orbitals and continue to mass raven , ect.... a nightmare :-p
Wait... first announcement of maps was all about "remove Nimbus,Foxtrot" give KSS, Over back... They did at least something and now its the exact opposite "Remove overgrowth, give Foxtrot Back"... I feel like sometimes this community is like a girl on her "days"... jesus maps are the last thing which needs a tweak in SC2 !
"I will throw this in.. how long have been Fighting Spirit and Frost played"
Ah nooooo. I am pretty tired of Overgrowth. It doesn't have the x-factor that a Daybreak or Cloud had when they were in the pool for about 323 years straight. I also agree with the comment here that Foxtrot finally started giving some cool games lately, I think that map wasn't completely ready to go yet.
Cant believe we still play Dual Sights clones in 2015. And thats not only Overgrowth. When will Sc2 reach the map diversity level of BW? Let Korean decides the pool maybe?
On January 07 2015 17:50 Arceus wrote: Cant believe we still play Dual Sights clones in 2015. And thats not only Overgrowth. When will Sc2 reach the map diversity level of BW? Let Korean decides the pool maybe?
Sure BW generally has good map diversity, but they're also still playing Fighting Spirit clones in 2015. Hell, they're even still using the original Fighting Spirit.
I will miss Foxtrot. To me it was truly a map that brought diversity and new kind of playstyles to SC.
Overgrowth is still nice, but meh. Deadwing could have gone without a regret...
Also the fact they keep all the new ones and not Expedition lost is kind of sad.
On January 07 2015 17:50 Arceus wrote: Cant believe we still play Dual Sights clones in 2015. And thats not only Overgrowth. When will Sc2 reach the map diversity level of BW? Let Korean decides the pool maybe?
Damn, i have a few ideas of crazy maps, but I'm bad at mapmaking (+ never find the time....)
On January 07 2015 17:50 Arceus wrote: Cant believe we still play Dual Sights clones in 2015. And thats not only Overgrowth. When will Sc2 reach the map diversity level of BW? Let Korean decides the pool maybe?
Where are the dual sights clones ? Please enlighten me. Are you just calling any 2 player map using rotational symmetry a "dual sights clone" like some ignorant people would call them Cloud Kingdoms clone or is there something big that i'm missing ?
What on earth is going on?! I really appreciate that Blizzard is trying to let their decisions be partly depended on the community's criticism, but seriously: Is this all you can do Blizzard? After all that feedback about the Blizz-internal map making, all that changes is one map and those 3 incredibly uncreative, boring and especially bad designed maps are still in? I really try to understand what the reason behind this decision is, but I just can't think of anything that prevents them from picking 3 or 4 new maps having more backbone than any blizzard maps that we had to experience in all those years of Starcraft 2. I mean, you say you cannot patch or change the game design drastically due to pro players' careers and what not. Ok, I get this part. But why then, Blizzard, why do u consider having inappropriate maps in your map pool, which also influences pro level play to a really remarkable extend? Sure, there are bad maps made by the community as well. But there are also many really good ones, that are definitely better than those introduced in the current map pool. Why are you not using those resources provided by the community for free? .. I am sorry, you are.. But you could do much better in terms of maps, much better.. without any drawback (at last from my point of view).
On January 07 2015 19:43 Pokebunny wrote: I think most high level players will be happy with this.
Yeah and most Viewers will die in boredoom with Overgrowth, which is then played for a whole year. And not only that because every pro does not want to adept, they will play this map in every Bo1-7 out there. It is so boring, so annoying. This map is fully discovered, thousends of progames played on it and nothing happens there anymore. I cant see it, my Eyes bleed.
And then we get 3 new maps made by Blizzard which not only look really bad, they tend to annoy all players. And then they swap out Foxtrot, a pretty balanced, but unice map, where pros have to adept and use unique styles. But hey, doing something out of the comfortzone, thats bad, lets keep Overgrowth for ever and see games we have seen the whole year long.
To clarify, these are not the reasons that Blizzard made the change, but for anyone curious I kept a lot of the data regarding map selection.
Over the course of the two seasons that Overgrowth was in the WCS mappool including it's original season, it had a 21% veto rate across all WCS/IEM/Redbull tournaments.
Foxtrot on the other hand had an 80% veto rate across all three matchups and in many mirrors during it's single season, rising to 88% if we only include bo3's. It also has a staggering 91% in ZvP which is the highest recorded for a map in any matchup and if we only include bo3 series that number rises to 96%.
On January 07 2015 17:50 Arceus wrote: Cant believe we still play Dual Sights clones in 2015. And thats not only Overgrowth. When will Sc2 reach the map diversity level of BW? Let Korean decides the pool maybe?
Sure BW generally has good map diversity, but they're also still playing Fighting Spirit clones in 2015. Hell, they're even still using the original Fighting Spirit.
3000 - 5000 ppl watching Bisu playing original Fighting Spirit all day almost everyday ! Its not about how old the map is its still good!
On January 07 2015 21:53 messioso wrote: To clarify, these are not the reasons that Blizzard made the change, but for anyone curious I kept a lot of the data regarding map selection.
Over the course of the two seasons that Overgrowth was in the WCS mappool including it's original season, it had a 21% veto rate across all WCS/IEM/Redbull tournaments.
Foxtrot on the other hand had an 80% veto rate across all three matchups and in many mirrors during it's single season, rising to 88% if we only include bo3's. It also has a staggering 91% in ZvP which is the highest recorded for a map in any matchup and if we only include bo3 series that number rises to 96%.
thx for the insight.
Let's not forget that blizzard has also some data none of us has : the vetoing on ladder. I had Foxtrot unvetoed for a while, though almost never played on it, I wouldn't be surprised if people also massively veto it on ladder.
Really, Overgrosth is one of the most consensual map as of now, it's too risky to get rid of it.
Last, so many people seem to know how bad the 3 new maps are, I suppose they all heavily tested them with their GM friends all hollidays long.
On January 07 2015 23:39 Gwavajuice wrote: Last, so many people seem to know how bad the 3 new maps are, I suppose they all heavily tested them with their GM friends all hollidays long.
Well, even without testing the blizzard ones look funky as hell. Secret Spring in particular seems like a nightmare to have any form of standard metagame on. It's a conglomerate of features that are no-goes for balance reasons. Without even opening the window I can tell you that it won't ever be used in professional play. Even if by some miracle metagame star-alignment between the impossibility of counterattacks with only one tiny path, the blink nightmare cliffs, the possibility to split the map with a 2rax, the extremely zerg/terran(vsP) favored 3rd bases and the extreme early game coinflip affinity that the combination of 2p-map with singlewide ramp to the first two bases brings a stable, balanced metagame could evolve, no professional player (besides CatZ) will even think about spending hours and hours of fleshing out build orders and gameplans for one single map. Vaani looks like a turtle paradise with a similar, yet even more defensive setup than Newkirk. If their intention is to buff zerg vs terran with maps, cloning one of the more Terran-favored maps doesn't sound like a good theory. Inferno Pools is fucked up and depending on the spawns looks like a rush paradise or a freewin for zerg in the lategame with how exposed the thirds are and how long the rush distance is in cross. The chances of it seeing the light of tournament play are rather low as well.
On January 07 2015 21:53 messioso wrote: To clarify, these are not the reasons that Blizzard made the change, but for anyone curious I kept a lot of the data regarding map selection.
Over the course of the two seasons that Overgrowth was in the WCS mappool including it's original season, it had a 21% veto rate across all WCS/IEM/Redbull tournaments.
Foxtrot on the other hand had an 80% veto rate across all three matchups and in many mirrors during it's single season, rising to 88% if we only include bo3's. It also has a staggering 91% in ZvP which is the highest recorded for a map in any matchup and if we only include bo3 series that number rises to 96%.
So bored of maps in this game. Every map is just a main with a ramp and then a natural with a bigger ramp and if it isnt its just a main with a ramp and then a free natural expansion in the back. Why does there always have to be ramps? Were all sc1 maps this uniform? I feel like I have been playing the same map since this game came out.
On January 07 2015 17:50 Arceus wrote: Cant believe we still play Dual Sights clones in 2015. And thats not only Overgrowth. When will Sc2 reach the map diversity level of BW? Let Korean decides the pool maybe?
Sure BW generally has good map diversity, but they're also still playing Fighting Spirit clones in 2015. Hell, they're even still using the original Fighting Spirit.
Overgrowth's mapname just got cooler for me. I wonder if this season someone will manage to break the map. But I saw enough of that map as well mostly because players use this to sleep waddle through a map.
Looking at this thread it seems like the % are inverted. Proof that whatever blizzard does, the community will say that they did it wrong.
I don't think people are bemoaning the removal of Foxtrot.
They are bemoaning the fact that shit maps are still in the map-pool.
I think so too, although Foxtrot is a legit good and balanced map. Overgrowth replacing any of the new Blizzard maps wouldn't have made a lot of people angry.
I love reading the feedback from spectators who don't realize how fucking awful all the non-Overgrowth maps actually are. For the sake of balance this move needed to be done.
I'm actually really upset with this. Another season of standard, familiar games on overgrowth. Though its the best looking map aesthetically, its just time for it to leave. They should have brought Frost back or something. Or done a community vote as to which of the three remaining old maps to eliminate and which one to replace it with (with obvious discretion on which maps are available to vote for)
Looking at this thread it seems like the % are inverted. Proof that whatever blizzard does, the community will say that they did it wrong.
I don't think people are bemoaning the removal of Foxtrot.
They are bemoaning the fact that shit maps are still in the map-pool.
I think so too, although Foxtrot is a legit good and balanced map. Overgrowth replacing any of the new Blizzard maps wouldn't have made a lot of people angry.
I think it would have even made everyone happy. Who's eager to play on Inferno Pools or Secret Spring, seriously ?
Looking at this thread it seems like the % are inverted. Proof that whatever blizzard does, the community will say that they did it wrong.
I don't think people are bemoaning the removal of Foxtrot.
They are bemoaning the fact that shit maps are still in the map-pool.
I think so too, although Foxtrot is a legit good and balanced map. Overgrowth replacing any of the new Blizzard maps wouldn't have made a lot of people angry.
I was told that I was wrong for thinking Foxtrot was a good map. It's super legit to me, although I am currently only a plat player.
On January 08 2015 07:22 RPR_Tempest wrote: Foxtrot isn't as bad as some of the maps like Nimbus, but it's still a really shitty map for Zerg. :/
I don't think it is really shitty. It's allin-friendly against zerg, yet not broken and the macro game on it is quite OK. As you say, it is better than Nimbus and in my opinion also quite better than Deadwing or Catallena for Zerg.
I really dig your other comment:
On January 08 2015 04:07 RPR_Tempest wrote: I love reading the feedback from spectators who don't realize how fucking awful all the non-Overgrowth maps actually are. For the sake of balance this move needed to be done.
It's not like there is not that much of a difference how a solid standard game looks like on Foxtrot, Overgrowth or say Merry Go Round anyways. Yet, out of all the maps around
it produces the most balanced gamesin all the matchups it allows for a variety of playstyles - think the diversity of bio/mech in ZvT/TvT that is possible it features interesting expansion patterns - 1-2 third base choices and 2-3 base choices and a few gimmicky plays - mainly for Zerg through the gold bases, but also tank sieges on the natural from the third in TvT.
The map is just rocksolid and a pleasure to play on as you can play your heart out in nearly any way that pleases you. People who hate on it for being old or stale may not even play the game or mistake seeing/playing the map again with seeing a strategy again. Yes, it's getting a bit old, but for as long as blizzard doesn't manage to have at least 3 of 6 other maps being similarily balanced and strategically interesting, I don't see a point in replacing it.
Good move imho. Can't please all the people all the time! We all have favorites or pet hates. Still wished blizz would promote more of the communities maps though.
Why all the whining? I personally liked all the maps from the last pool. Dreampool was disaster but that was fun. We know the issues maps. We know Toss gets dropped on nimbus and Deadwing is Turtly as hell. So just adjust your play. The maps should not be perfect. They should be different. thats it.
Its like with girls. There are no perfect one. And they are all different. And I wouldn't veto any of them.
I'm okay with Overgrowth coming back. It's balanced and it has survived many seasons of pro play. I object to the fact that of all the maps they chose to pull, they chose Foxtrot Labs.
Deadwing, and Secret Spring really should have gone first. Secret Spring just looks broken. If they must keep the new maps, swap in Inferno Pools to at least have a new big boring macro map (BBMM) instead of an old big boring macro map. Or turf both the BBMM's and keep KSS or any other old map. I'd even support keeping something retro in the pool like a one-map dreampool.
Does anybody else have a problem with Vaani Research station? For some reason it seems "foggy" to me, like the colours are not right. Apart from that, I really dislike Secret Spring and the other one with the nat in the back of the main. One of those 2 would have been ok (though i dont like either) but putting twice the same feature looks like laziness to me
On January 09 2015 01:57 sparklyresidue wrote: I want Frost back. Was it super imba or something? I just remember great games from it, but sometimes I weed out the unpleasant memories.
Towards the end of its lifetime it became quite Zerg favored vs Terran. Which was still pre-hellbat and pre-mine buffs though. Also I think it was quite a good blinkmap in the heydays of Protoss vs Terran.
On January 16 2015 06:10 WGT-Baal wrote: Does anybody else have a problem with Vaani Research station? For some reason it seems "foggy" to me, like the colours are not right.
Yes, I think they messed up the falloff of the fog that covers the outer areas. The higher you get on the map, the better it is, but on the lowground it's all milky white.
On January 16 2015 06:10 WGT-Baal wrote: Apart from that, I really dislike Secret Spring and the other one with the nat in the back of the main. One of those 2 would have been ok (though i dont like either) but putting twice the same feature looks like laziness to me
Well, one could argue that natural-in-front-of-the-main on most maps is also a specific feature, so I don't really mind if they put the natural-behind-the-main feature on multiple maps, if it works out. But I don't think it increases gamequality, in particular because they put it on 2player maps with 1wide ramps instead of 2wide ramps with rocks blocking initially.
Still hating Secret Spring and Catellena. I've come to accept the BBMM. Still loving Vaani. I'm starting to like Expedition Lost, although I'm all-inning like a motherfucker to keep my winrate from falling too drastically. I'm dead tired of Deadwing, though a little less so of Overgrowth, but as a spectator, I'm sick of both of them.
EPT
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