On November 10 2014 09:30 Kharnage wrote: Looking at how everything is being pushed to mid game and terran getting cloak and sege mode free, what are peoples thoughts on Blink, charge, ling speed and roach speed being free?
I'd much rather Siege Mode went back to being an upgrade than remove more upgrades from the game.
The p[roblem I see at the moment is that toss has no way of dealing with cyclone or range banshee without blink.
I'm also wondering if protoss tech times are too long in a fast expansion style game.
what do people think about removing cybercore requirement for tech structures?
Or removing warp gate research?
Protoss can't deal with range Banshee without blink? What happened to Phoenix? Or Feedback?
Phoenix kills Cyclones dead, too, as do Colossi.
Yeah, my initial thought was that PvT will be oracle > phoenix > carrier form now on.
Cyclones can shoot up, so i'm not sure how phoenix are ment to 'stop it dead'
Can't shoot up if you can't shoot. Graviton, baby. Graviton.
I don't know any of the cyclones stats, but assuming it's light, you need 2 phoenix, or probably one phoenix+2 stalkers to kill a cyclone.
Still it seems a bit extreme that once terran makes a single cyclone, you can't venture out onto the map as a protoss until you've either gotten blink, phoenix, collosi, or you have enough units that a couple of cyclones don't scare you.
I honestly think cyclone lockon should take some time, similar to a seeker missile.
On November 10 2014 09:30 Kharnage wrote: Looking at how everything is being pushed to mid game and terran getting cloak and sege mode free, what are peoples thoughts on Blink, charge, ling speed and roach speed being free?
I'd much rather Siege Mode went back to being an upgrade than remove more upgrades from the game.
The p[roblem I see at the moment is that toss has no way of dealing with cyclone or range banshee without blink.
I'm also wondering if protoss tech times are too long in a fast expansion style game.
what do people think about removing cybercore requirement for tech structures?
Or removing warp gate research?
Protoss can't deal with range Banshee without blink? What happened to Phoenix? Or Feedback?
Phoenix kills Cyclones dead, too, as do Colossi.
Yeah, my initial thought was that PvT will be oracle > phoenix > carrier form now on.
Cyclones can shoot up, so i'm not sure how phoenix are ment to 'stop it dead'
Can't shoot up if you can't shoot. Graviton, baby. Graviton.
I don't know any of the cyclones stats, but assuming it's light, you need 2 phoenix, or probably one phoenix+2 stalkers to kill a cyclone.
Still it seems a bit extreme that once terran makes a single cyclone, you can't venture out onto the map as a protoss until you've either gotten blink, phoenix, collosi, or you have enough units that a couple of cyclones don't scare you.
I honestly think cyclone lockon should take some time, similar to a seeker missile.
Yeah, but that's a stat-points criticism. If zealots came out with 3.00 speed and 2k hitpoints they'd be broken, but they're design would still be interesting (that of tanky melee basic units)
The discussion should less be on the tactical aspects of units as they are, but of what direction those tactical aspects should be shifted towards?
For example, I love the idea of a mobile "lock-on" single target mech unit to give mech a baseline unit from which to play off of. I actually wish its damage was higher, its range lower, and its speed require an upgrade to reach. Too slow to be scary without support in the early game, but fast enough to be useful en-mass in the late game. Nothing specific, just where I see its place in the eb and flow of a matchup should be in.
Anyone who's been able to test, can the thor repair mid battle? Is it possible to get 3 thors to act like a force field standing between ur bio and the banelings?
My overall feeling is that it's great that blizzard is looking at major change (which they have previously refused to do). But I think if these are indications of the direction they are going, protoss will need some major changes in numbers. They've essentially made a game where you have to expand but in PvZ you can't due to unstoppable nydus and breakable force fields. PvT it was hard enough as it is to hold 3 bases without the cyclone imagine the need to hold 4+ bases.
Having said that some things would be interesting to try e.g. can you drop disruptors? i.e. can you charge them up, pick them up in a warp prism and just drop them onto a bio ball. or can you use a disruptor phoniex stalker opening to give map presence e.g. using disruptors to zone marines so that you can take the army apart with phoniex.
On November 10 2014 09:30 Kharnage wrote: Looking at how everything is being pushed to mid game and terran getting cloak and sege mode free, what are peoples thoughts on Blink, charge, ling speed and roach speed being free?
I'd much rather Siege Mode went back to being an upgrade than remove more upgrades from the game.
The p[roblem I see at the moment is that toss has no way of dealing with cyclone or range banshee without blink.
I'm also wondering if protoss tech times are too long in a fast expansion style game.
what do people think about removing cybercore requirement for tech structures?
Or removing warp gate research?
Protoss can't deal with range Banshee without blink? What happened to Phoenix? Or Feedback?
Phoenix kills Cyclones dead, too, as do Colossi.
Yeah, my initial thought was that PvT will be oracle > phoenix > carrier form now on.
Cyclones can shoot up, so i'm not sure how phoenix are ment to 'stop it dead'
Can't shoot up if you can't shoot. Graviton, baby. Graviton.
I don't know any of the cyclones stats, but assuming it's light, you need 2 phoenix, or probably one phoenix+2 stalkers to kill a cyclone.
Still it seems a bit extreme that once terran makes a single cyclone, you can't venture out onto the map as a protoss until you've either gotten blink, phoenix, collosi, or you have enough units that a couple of cyclones don't scare you.
I honestly think cyclone lockon should take some time, similar to a seeker missile.
Yeah, but that's a stat-points criticism. If zealots came out with 3.00 speed and 2k hitpoints they'd be broken, but they're design would still be interesting (that of tanky melee basic units)
The discussion should less be on the tactical aspects of units as they are, but of what direction those tactical aspects should be shifted towards?
For example, I love the idea of a mobile "lock-on" single target mech unit to give mech a baseline unit from which to play off of. I actually wish its damage was higher, its range lower, and its speed require an upgrade to reach. Too slow to be scary without support in the early game, but fast enough to be useful en-mass in the late game. Nothing specific, just where I see its place in the eb and flow of a matchup should be in.
That's exactly what i'm trying to do.
I don't understand what 'role' the cyclone is attempting to fill, but here are my assumptions:
it needs to be fast enough to kite stalkers. it needs to do enough damage to kill units. it has the ability to 'lockon' from close rnage and then have very long range it can shoot anything that it can see
if it moves much slower than a stalker it'll just die (moves into stalker range, aquires lock but then can't move away fast enough and stalkers wlak over and kill it) if it moves same speed or even slightly slower than a stalker the stalker will get 1 or maybe 2 shots off and then die. a ciritical mass of stalkers will be required to 1 shot cyclone to stop this pattern. this number is crucial. right now i'd say this is 'too many'. 1 would obviously be 'too few'. because it seems this unit is based around stalkers, the slower, shorter range zealots and sentries are completely worthless vs the cyclone (except maybe a FF to lock it in your base?)
the issues for toss around this unit are that it's fast, so it can move across map and harass early int he game. if toss don't invest in X numbers of stalkers they are just dead. literally. build order loss. it's possible toss can hold off cyclone with early phoenix. I don't know how this will work in reality since if the terran sends a few marines and continues to make cyclones i think they will just kill the phoenix. grav beam has range 4, so all cyclones will lockon to phoenix.
i don't think toss would ahve time to build pylon, gateway, cybercore, robo, robo bay, colossus + colossus range before cyclone arrive at protoss base. note : not sure if range is required. maybe with enoguh ground forces / nexus cannon the cyclone could be kept back?) vs the supply depot, barracks, techlab + factory, lift factory onto techlab (assuming fastest build orders for both) + travel time.
Since immortals are useless vs cyclone (too slow, no hardend shields) toss should either go stargate or blink.
On November 10 2014 09:30 Kharnage wrote: Looking at how everything is being pushed to mid game and terran getting cloak and sege mode free, what are peoples thoughts on Blink, charge, ling speed and roach speed being free?
I'd much rather Siege Mode went back to being an upgrade than remove more upgrades from the game.
The p[roblem I see at the moment is that toss has no way of dealing with cyclone or range banshee without blink.
I'm also wondering if protoss tech times are too long in a fast expansion style game.
what do people think about removing cybercore requirement for tech structures?
Or removing warp gate research?
Protoss can't deal with range Banshee without blink? What happened to Phoenix? Or Feedback?
Phoenix kills Cyclones dead, too, as do Colossi.
Yeah, my initial thought was that PvT will be oracle > phoenix > carrier form now on.
Cyclones can shoot up, so i'm not sure how phoenix are ment to 'stop it dead'
Can't shoot up if you can't shoot. Graviton, baby. Graviton.
Can't graviton if you die in 2.5seconds to two cyclones. It's more realistic to Graviton mass stimmed marines than a few cyclones, because the marines at least die when they are gravitoned. Even if you graviton a few of them, the rest will wreck your gravitoning phoenix before they can kill it.
This thing has more dps than an Immortal against armored when it locks on you.
Cyclone lock-on range is either 4 or 5. Graviton range is 4. Phoenixes are faster and they're air units, which means they choose when the engagement will happen, not Cyclones.
I'm not defending the unit. Right now, I see nothing redeemable about its concept - not the gameplay, not the aesthetics, not the lore. But even so, even in its obviously OP present state, I think Phoenixes would counter it ezpz.
On November 09 2014 01:11 Liquid`Ret wrote: changes are cool but no F2P means there will no updates/evolution after release making sc2 a ded game RIP
In all honesty can you blame blizzard if they abandon it? With a mostly negative community, its hard to continue to support a game when all the community does is bash you for it and want BW units and mechanics. They don't want to make BW with updated graphics, if you want to play BW play fucking BW.
On November 09 2014 01:11 Liquid`Ret wrote: changes are cool but no F2P means there will no updates/evolution after release making sc2 a ded game RIP
In all honesty can you blame blizzard if they abandon it? With a mostly negative community, its hard to continue to support a game when all the community does is bash you for it and want BW units and mechanics. They don't want to make BW with updated graphics, if you want to play BW play fucking BW.
We don't want BW, but we want a game that is AT LEAST AS fun to watch and/or play as BW was.
There's no excuse for the design team making an objectively less enjoyable game than its 15 year old predecessor given all the time they've had and the reference material they have to work off of.
Thank god they're finally taking steps in the right direction with LotV. We have to make sure they keep pushing far enough.
On November 10 2014 09:30 Kharnage wrote: Looking at how everything is being pushed to mid game and terran getting cloak and sege mode free, what are peoples thoughts on Blink, charge, ling speed and roach speed being free?
I'd much rather Siege Mode went back to being an upgrade than remove more upgrades from the game.
The p[roblem I see at the moment is that toss has no way of dealing with cyclone or range banshee without blink.
I'm also wondering if protoss tech times are too long in a fast expansion style game.
what do people think about removing cybercore requirement for tech structures?
Or removing warp gate research?
Protoss can't deal with range Banshee without blink? What happened to Phoenix? Or Feedback?
Phoenix kills Cyclones dead, too, as do Colossi.
Yeah, my initial thought was that PvT will be oracle > phoenix > carrier form now on.
Cyclones can shoot up, so i'm not sure how phoenix are ment to 'stop it dead'
Can't shoot up if you can't shoot. Graviton, baby. Graviton.
I don't know any of the cyclones stats, but assuming it's light, you need 2 phoenix, or probably one phoenix+2 stalkers to kill a cyclone.
Still it seems a bit extreme that once terran makes a single cyclone, you can't venture out onto the map as a protoss until you've either gotten blink, phoenix, collosi, or you have enough units that a couple of cyclones don't scare you.
I honestly think cyclone lockon should take some time, similar to a seeker missile.
Yeah, but that's a stat-points criticism. If zealots came out with 3.00 speed and 2k hitpoints they'd be broken, but they're design would still be interesting (that of tanky melee basic units)
The discussion should less be on the tactical aspects of units as they are, but of what direction those tactical aspects should be shifted towards?
For example, I love the idea of a mobile "lock-on" single target mech unit to give mech a baseline unit from which to play off of. I actually wish its damage was higher, its range lower, and its speed require an upgrade to reach. Too slow to be scary without support in the early game, but fast enough to be useful en-mass in the late game. Nothing specific, just where I see its place in the eb and flow of a matchup should be in.
That's exactly what i'm trying to do.
I don't understand what 'role' the cyclone is attempting to fill, but here are my assumptions:
it needs to be fast enough to kite stalkers. it needs to do enough damage to kill units. it has the ability to 'lockon' from close rnage and then have very long range it can shoot anything that it can see
if it moves much slower than a stalker it'll just die (moves into stalker range, aquires lock but then can't move away fast enough and stalkers wlak over and kill it) if it moves same speed or even slightly slower than a stalker the stalker will get 1 or maybe 2 shots off and then die. a ciritical mass of stalkers will be required to 1 shot cyclone to stop this pattern. this number is crucial. right now i'd say this is 'too many'. 1 would obviously be 'too few'. because it seems this unit is based around stalkers, the slower, shorter range zealots and sentries are completely worthless vs the cyclone (except maybe a FF to lock it in your base?)
the issues for toss around this unit are that it's fast, so it can move across map and harass early int he game. if toss don't invest in X numbers of stalkers they are just dead. literally. build order loss. it's possible toss can hold off cyclone with early phoenix. I don't know how this will work in reality since if the terran sends a few marines and continues to make cyclones i think they will just kill the phoenix. grav beam has range 4, so all cyclones will lockon to phoenix.
i don't think toss would ahve time to build pylon, gateway, cybercore, robo, robo bay, colossus + colossus range before cyclone arrive at protoss base. note : not sure if range is required. maybe with enoguh ground forces / nexus cannon the cyclone could be kept back?) vs the supply depot, barracks, techlab + factory, lift factory onto techlab (assuming fastest build orders for both) + travel time.
Since immortals are useless vs cyclone (too slow, no hardend shields) toss should either go stargate or blink.
Am i missing anything yet?
Your stuck on the stalker speed--like I said, that's just a stat attribute.
Its a ground unit designed to move and shoot, but be able to extend its range once it "commits/locks on" to a target.
This means they want this unit to be able to kite, but before it can kite anything it has to get within range and fight close range long enough to lock on.
Main attributes to look at:
speed (kite effectiveness) lock on time (how long should it be vulnerable) DPS potential (do we want this to kite targets for a long time or only a short time)
These are all arbitrary. They could make it slightly faster than zealots and have stalkers be their hard counter. They could make them have high damage and speed to counter stalkers, but a long lock on timer so they're hard countered by zealots. etc...
The stats themselves are arbitrary and changes what units they are good against. But what we should discuss is "what aspect of mech is fixed/improved by unit like this." and then focus its stats on fixing that weakness.
On November 10 2014 14:54 mishimaBeef wrote: Secret to brood war's success: no health bars.
I think RTS being a relatively young genre attributes a lot to BW's success.
Everything that lead to BW's success was bottled lightning. The infancy of the genre and games in general, the cultural climate at the time(especially in Korea), technological limitations, staff the left the company, etc.
On November 09 2014 01:11 Liquid`Ret wrote: changes are cool but no F2P means there will no updates/evolution after release making sc2 a ded game RIP
In all honesty can you blame blizzard if they abandon it? With a mostly negative community, its hard to continue to support a game when all the community does is bash you for it and want BW units and mechanics. They don't want to make BW with updated graphics, if you want to play BW play fucking BW.
They cannot go F2P either way because of cheaters. Can you imagine the actual state with their banning and anti-cheating policy? The ladder would be unplayable
On November 10 2014 09:30 Kharnage wrote: Looking at how everything is being pushed to mid game and terran getting cloak and sege mode free, what are peoples thoughts on Blink, charge, ling speed and roach speed being free?
I'd much rather Siege Mode went back to being an upgrade than remove more upgrades from the game.
The p[roblem I see at the moment is that toss has no way of dealing with cyclone or range banshee without blink.
I'm also wondering if protoss tech times are too long in a fast expansion style game.
what do people think about removing cybercore requirement for tech structures?
Or removing warp gate research?
Protoss can't deal with range Banshee without blink? What happened to Phoenix? Or Feedback?
Phoenix kills Cyclones dead, too, as do Colossi.
Yeah, my initial thought was that PvT will be oracle > phoenix > carrier form now on.
Cyclones can shoot up, so i'm not sure how phoenix are ment to 'stop it dead'
Can't shoot up if you can't shoot. Graviton, baby. Graviton.
I don't know any of the cyclones stats, but assuming it's light, you need 2 phoenix, or probably one phoenix+2 stalkers to kill a cyclone.
Still it seems a bit extreme that once terran makes a single cyclone, you can't venture out onto the map as a protoss until you've either gotten blink, phoenix, collosi, or you have enough units that a couple of cyclones don't scare you.
I honestly think cyclone lockon should take some time, similar to a seeker missile.
Yeah, but that's a stat-points criticism. If zealots came out with 3.00 speed and 2k hitpoints they'd be broken, but they're design would still be interesting (that of tanky melee basic units)
The discussion should less be on the tactical aspects of units as they are, but of what direction those tactical aspects should be shifted towards?
For example, I love the idea of a mobile "lock-on" single target mech unit to give mech a baseline unit from which to play off of. I actually wish its damage was higher, its range lower, and its speed require an upgrade to reach. Too slow to be scary without support in the early game, but fast enough to be useful en-mass in the late game. Nothing specific, just where I see its place in the eb and flow of a matchup should be in.
That's exactly what i'm trying to do.
I don't understand what 'role' the cyclone is attempting to fill, but here are my assumptions:
it needs to be fast enough to kite stalkers. it needs to do enough damage to kill units. it has the ability to 'lockon' from close rnage and then have very long range it can shoot anything that it can see
if it moves much slower than a stalker it'll just die (moves into stalker range, aquires lock but then can't move away fast enough and stalkers wlak over and kill it) if it moves same speed or even slightly slower than a stalker the stalker will get 1 or maybe 2 shots off and then die. a ciritical mass of stalkers will be required to 1 shot cyclone to stop this pattern. this number is crucial. right now i'd say this is 'too many'. 1 would obviously be 'too few'. because it seems this unit is based around stalkers, the slower, shorter range zealots and sentries are completely worthless vs the cyclone (except maybe a FF to lock it in your base?)
the issues for toss around this unit are that it's fast, so it can move across map and harass early int he game. if toss don't invest in X numbers of stalkers they are just dead. literally. build order loss. it's possible toss can hold off cyclone with early phoenix. I don't know how this will work in reality since if the terran sends a few marines and continues to make cyclones i think they will just kill the phoenix. grav beam has range 4, so all cyclones will lockon to phoenix.
i don't think toss would ahve time to build pylon, gateway, cybercore, robo, robo bay, colossus + colossus range before cyclone arrive at protoss base. note : not sure if range is required. maybe with enoguh ground forces / nexus cannon the cyclone could be kept back?) vs the supply depot, barracks, techlab + factory, lift factory onto techlab (assuming fastest build orders for both) + travel time.
Since immortals are useless vs cyclone (too slow, no hardend shields) toss should either go stargate or blink.
Am i missing anything yet?
Your stuck on the stalker speed--like I said, that's just a stat attribute.
Its a ground unit designed to move and shoot, but be able to extend its range once it "commits/locks on" to a target.
This means they want this unit to be able to kite, but before it can kite anything it has to get within range and fight close range long enough to lock on.
Main attributes to look at:
speed (kite effectiveness) lock on time (how long should it be vulnerable) DPS potential (do we want this to kite targets for a long time or only a short time)
These are all arbitrary. They could make it slightly faster than zealots and have stalkers be their hard counter. They could make them have high damage and speed to counter stalkers, but a long lock on timer so they're hard countered by zealots. etc...
The stats themselves are arbitrary and changes what units they are good against. But what we should discuss is "what aspect of mech is fixed/improved by unit like this." and then focus its stats on fixing that weakness.
We can't discuss what aspect of Mech is improved with this when we assume that the unit stats change massively. You can't say this is a good unit early for pokes against Protoss while allowing the assumption that a stalker can kill it, since then a single stalker shuts it down.
Stats and design are connected. You give a unit stats so that it can fullfill a purpose. That is called designing a unit. Whether the cyclone has 36, 40 or 30dps doesn't greatly alter its design, but when you alter its stats so that stalkers just outrun them when the original purpose was the other way around then it is a redesign.
EPT
