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On November 10 2014 07:11 VArsovskiSC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I find any anti-critique to critique to be a disrespect TRUE that people can go off-the-hook and go bonkerz with the critique of things and that BUT - right now I have these 2 problems: 1 - Why is it ALWAYS that dreaded TERRAN that has to be broken in the testing phase ?, Is it so much of a problem that DK never knows what they want to achieve with the new units in the Terran race ? I mean that's 3 times already that same mistake.. Make no mistake - that's intended.. WHY - W.T.F. - what did P and Z do wrong to DK for him to always start Terran as favored ? Kept it's DREADED OP state for a FREAKIN YEAR AND A HALF till the Ghost got nerfed in WoL for example.. Yeah yeah - infestor/broodlord - well guess what - that wasn't a Terran problem, that was a PROTOSS problem in the first place and Terrans kept abusing that as a "paint-over" to make the overall picture as if Zerg was OP in WoL whilest it was Terran most of the time back then Do you really think that SC2 lost popularity that easy because of the game being hard to play ? - NO - it lost popularity because the games were most of the time unbalanced (or at least I tend to think that) 2 - Why is it that new unit's strengths AREN'T EVEN TESTED before presented.. I mean come on - how long would it take to figure out how much both the new units are broken ? First being a techlab/rax unit that has 160 HP and SPLASH and has an insta 40 damage on the hook ability (or 35 or whatever - that thing clearly one-shotted Zergling no doubt on that) Second being a regular factory unit that has 200 HP and outranges and out-kites everything bar Speedling in the game ?, I mean I can understand the unit CONCEPT, but WHY 200 HP ? - is it really hard to see that that would be broken ? I mean it's not hard - is it ? - how hard will it be to make a unit do less damage or have a less HP so it wouldn't be outright broken ? NOW TRUE - the Community is toxic, blah, blah, but - don't you realize the problem ? - instead of having a good clue about the direction of the game we have NOTHING at the moment Instead of talking about positive feedback and perhaps even theory-crafting about possible strategies that might happen, we instead of that do ARGUE FOR NUMBERS I mean come on - takes less than 3 hours to make numbers of presentation reasonable-ish (a close approximation to what is wanted to be presented), doesn't it ? And NO - NUMBERS aren't a community's nor what community should discuss about, is it ? It's a DIRECT REASON why the toxicity happens.. NO-ONE asks precision and decision, nor would judge upon them at this point, BUT: Everyone (or at least a good chunk of us) - wants to have that "feeling of a grasp" of how things might "work" and how not.. Like you wanna "paint a direction" of how you wanna play when the game comes out or at least have in your head your most favourite builds you wanna try to play.. People usually define "their own style" in the head before even the game's started, - so when it comes out you wanna see how your "pre-thought strategy" gonna turn out, don't you ? Regardless - here's a little Poll which would "define" why (or at least I assume why) people are or might be concerned about numbers even in this early non-defining and "meaningless" stage of the game development: Poll: Does balance (even in showmatch) affect interest to follow the scene ?(Vote): Yes, very much, would like to know where things go towards at
(Vote): Yes, skeptical things won't do a drastic change, so would wait to see what happens
(Vote): Not really concerned until the game comes out, but would be concerned after
(Vote): No, my impression of the game relies solely on my own experience of play, and not viewing of games
(Vote): Doesn't matter
Wait. Are you actually balance whining, by saying Terran OP, but for the alpha/beta phase of a game? O_o
edit : Also please, putting words IN FULL CAPS doesn't make your argument stronger
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On November 10 2014 07:25 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 07:11 VArsovskiSC wrote:On November 10 2014 06:38 sage_francis wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +I find any anti-critique to critique to be a disrespect TRUE that people can go off-the-hook and go bonkerz with the critique of things and that BUT - right now I have these 2 problems: 1 - Why is it ALWAYS that dreaded TERRAN that has to be broken in the testing phase ?, Is it so much of a problem that DK never knows what they want to achieve with the new units in the Terran race ? I mean that's 3 times already that same mistake.. Make no mistake - that's intended.. WHY - W.T.F. - what did P and Z do wrong to DK for him to always start Terran as favored ? Kept it's DREADED OP state for a FREAKIN YEAR AND A HALF till the Ghost got nerfed in WoL for example.. Yeah yeah - infestor/broodlord - well guess what - that wasn't a Terran problem, that was a PROTOSS problem in the first place and Terrans kept abusing that as a "paint-over" to make the overall picture as if Zerg was OP in WoL whilest it was Terran most of the time back then Do you really think that SC2 lost popularity that easy because of the game being hard to play ? - NO - it lost popularity because the games were most of the time unbalanced (or at least I tend to think that) 2 - Why is it that new unit's strengths AREN'T EVEN TESTED before presented.. I mean come on - how long would it take to figure out how much both the new units are broken ? First being a techlab/rax unit that has 160 HP and SPLASH and has an insta 40 damage on the hook ability (or 35 or whatever - that thing clearly one-shotted Zergling no doubt on that) Second being a regular factory unit that has 200 HP and outranges and out-kites everything bar Speedling in the game ?, I mean I can understand the unit CONCEPT, but WHY 200 HP ? - is it really hard to see that that would be broken ? I mean it's not hard - is it ? - how hard will it be to make a unit do less damage or have a less HP so it wouldn't be outright broken ? NOW TRUE - the Community is toxic, blah, blah, but - don't you realize the problem ? - instead of having a good clue about the direction of the game we have NOTHING at the moment Instead of talking about positive feedback and perhaps even theory-crafting about possible strategies that might happen, we instead of that do ARGUE FOR NUMBERS I mean come on - takes less than 3 hours to make numbers of presentation reasonable-ish (a close approximation to what is wanted to be presented), doesn't it ? And NO - NUMBERS aren't a community's nor what community should discuss about, is it ? It's a DIRECT REASON why the toxicity happens.. NO-ONE asks precision and decision, nor would judge upon them at this point, BUT: Everyone (or at least a good chunk of us) - wants to have that "feeling of a grasp" of how things might "work" and how not.. Like you wanna "paint a direction" of how you wanna play when the game comes out or at least have in your head your most favourite builds you wanna try to play.. People usually define "their own style" in the head before even the game's started, - so when it comes out you wanna see how your "pre-thought strategy" gonna turn out, don't you ? Regardless - here's a little Poll which would "define" why (or at least I assume why) people are or might be concerned about numbers even in this early non-defining and "meaningless" stage of the game development: Poll: Does balance (even in showmatch) affect interest to follow the scene ?(Vote): Yes, very much, would like to know where things go towards at
(Vote): Yes, skeptical things won't do a drastic change, so would wait to see what happens
(Vote): Not really concerned until the game comes out, but would be concerned after
(Vote): No, my impression of the game relies solely on my own experience of play, and not viewing of games
(Vote): Doesn't matter
Wait. Are you actually balance whining, by saying Terran OP, but for the alpha/beta phase of a game? O_o
A bit of everything, you can say that the first part is that I hate DK's method of always keeping Terran OP as a starter/referrent point for balance, and how I don't like it and don't think it's a good starting point to do that, and for the rest I hope it makes sense that everything I said
I thorougly believe that the interest for the community members IS SEVERELY AFFECTED by balance/numbers.. Even (as I already described it) at this showmatch/meaningless game development phase..
Yes - that's the exact thing I'd like to talk about - how important the numbers are to people EVEN IN THIS "presentation" phase..
I may be wrong though, but if I'm not - then the concerns/balance-whinings are in fact legit - not cause of legit (in terms of reasonability of the concern) as if legit by nature, but a legit concern cause that's IMO #1 reason why Starcraft is losing fans/members/followers rather fast is exactly the balance problem at the presentation phases of the game
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On November 10 2014 07:19 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 07:18 sage_francis wrote:On November 10 2014 06:58 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 10 2014 06:38 sage_francis wrote:On November 10 2014 05:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 10 2014 04:57 DoubleReed wrote:
Why are people acting so surprised that cyclones are OP?
OP wouldn't have been surprising, blatantly broken was to be honest. I can't believe you people are calling some units OP or blatantly broken in a game which is not even beta tested ... This is mind blowing, and i don't understand why TL tolerates this attitude. We did not even see any real gameplay of LOTV. You can't rely on those awkward team melee games played as showmatch. What will it be 1 week after beta. You guys will already propose changes, after 2 games played at plat level, open you big toxic mouth on what should be revert, etc... This is so disgusting. Because people like you we have fucking meaningless patches evervy 2 months in this game. Just shup the fuck up, play the game, feel it, and let it evolve by himself, let players find solution. Maybe chnages will be needed but not before a good amount of time, practice, analysis, progamers feedback, etc... In BW, unit like defiler did sound very OP on paper, but it was not at all in practice. Thank god you were not there at this time to flood TL threads with your stupid posts. If you dont like the changes, just play another game, or create your own like starbow guys did, and let us enjoy the release of lotv. Hey, calm down dude. Did you watch the showmatches ? Two minutes of unit tester would have been enough to say this version of the Cyclone wasn't suitable. If you find it normal that the guys in charge of such an important game display this unit in this state on such a big stage, very well, but I don't. This is exactly my point. You can't judge anything based on team melee showmatches on a brand new game, with brand new economy, where players played offrace and had no clue what they were doing.... There is no BOs, no timings, no intercations, no nothing. Despite this, your absolute brilliant mind can judge and spread the OPness of a unit? 2 minutes of unit tester uh? Wtf is wrong with you? I don't know what is wrong with you. Since you're talking agressively I guess you're right and I'm wrong. Case closed, I don't see the point of discussing with you.
I dont want to discuss with you....
Im promoting doubt when you are spreading your non legit truth on TL forums. Im not the one saying "this unit is broken or this one is OP as fuck".
So yeah there is no discussion cause you already know !
Just wanted to point out your stupid attitude of balance whiner about a game who hasnt even been beta tested yet...
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edit : I said no point, let's just ignore the ayatollahs.
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OK, decided to separate the wheat from the crop and here's the important thing to focus to get info on:
Poll: Does balance (even in showmatch) affect interest to follow the scene ?(Vote): Yes, very much, would like to know where things go towards at
(Vote): Yes, skeptical things won't do a drastic change, so would wait to see what happens
(Vote): Not really concerned until the game comes out, but would be concerned after
(Vote): No, my impression of the game relies solely on my own experience of play, and not viewing of games
(Vote): Doesn't matter
That's what will/would get us all the useful overall information
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On November 10 2014 07:34 [PkF] Wire wrote:
edit : I said no point, let's just ignore the ayatollahs.
hahah an ayatollah?
Because i encourage people to play the game before judging it?
Because i dont like balance whiners?
Because i disagree with you?
You are so funny ^^
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Wow, lurkers with 200hp and 30damage.
Really strong unit. Ofcourse, dont know its cost. If it cost 500/500, then not so strong...
On November 10 2014 07:13 Big J wrote:And they already started the cyclone-redesign So it has 5range now (from 6 I think?), 2.81 movement speed (from 2.95) and the page doesn't say anything about an artillery upgrade (+3range). Sounds much better already. 
I wouldnt call that a redesign.
The stats of units were shown during blizzcon or are ppl just guessing? Just curious.
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The Nydus change at the end... does this not disrupt virtually every 2 base protoss opening and make it pretty much impossible to respond effectivly to fast mutas?
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I think i found the cost of cyclone:
150/150
Really expensive.
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Am I missing something or will protoss have to open oracle into phoenix every PvT due to banshee buffs and nexus cannon nerfs?
Nevermind siege tank drop micro which stalkers without blink will never be able to stop.
Maybe I'm an idiot, but I can't see how stalkers are meant to deal with either of those 2 openings from T.
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On November 10 2014 07:50 Foxxan wrote:Wow, lurkers with 200hp and 30damage. Really strong unit. Ofcourse, dont know its cost. If it cost 500/500, then not so strong... Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 07:13 Big J wrote:And they already started the cyclone-redesign So it has 5range now (from 6 I think?), 2.81 movement speed (from 2.95) and the page doesn't say anything about an artillery upgrade (+3range). Sounds much better already. I wouldnt call that a redesign. The stats of units were shown during blizzcon or are ppl just guessing? Just curious.
Well, the 6range is kind of a guess from their interaction with stalkers. Could have been 5before as well, but it looked like same as stalkers in direct combat with them.
The speed was the exact same as stalkers and they said so in the video.
I'm calling it a redesign because it changes crucial interactions. At 6range/2.95speed with leash range it could infinitely kite stalkers without ever getting touched by them. Same for speedroaches, no-speed zerglings and ultralisks.
With 5range and 2.81 same isn't possible anymore I think, at least not infinitely, the units will eventually catch up and hit at least once before their attack forces them to stop again and having to catch up again.
It's still quite a strong counter against all of those units, but it's not going to ramp up 65kills anymore just because you didn't build its hardcounter. (I mean, it's still to those units like a hellbat to a zergling, but that's already quite an improvement)
This of course implies that lock on range is the same as attack range, which I'm not sure about.
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On November 08 2014 04:44 Hikari wrote:
> Corruptors: have an ability to channel damage like a void ray. A few of them can kill a nexus in seconds
I am speechless.
Terrans get chargelots, reaverdrops, and stalker speed mech units
Protoss gets mine fields, flying siege tanks, and good turtle tools
Zerg gets Voidray
This is the race mash-up expansion.
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On November 10 2014 08:02 Foxxan wrote:
I think i found the cost of cyclone:
150/150
Really expensive.
That's something we can't know yet because the game practically starts already at 2 bases for each race and each game..
LotV basically STARTS at mid-game (not quite, but almost there).. Basically the Cyclone (in terms of production cost/infrastructure requirements) feels like a Hydralisk or a Stalker despite the high cost - things are gonna get changed due to eco changes in the start of the game
That's why I said/suggested that Zerg shoud rush to the Infestors and Protoss open with Oracles to stabilize their play cause 150 gas wouldn't be that much if you start with 12 workers already.. 
I mean - it would take severe resources to invest into non-stop production of these, but to rush the first one - there's basically almost no sacrifice (or at least that's the way I tend to have the impression of things)
Thanks for the info anyway, (at least to be grateful or sound like it at least a bit at the end :D)
EDIT: Yes - just as I thought - even the cost of Herc is 100/100 - but that's basically now considered cheap cause you don't "feel the impact" of the change - basically treat the game as if everyone didn't do any rushes and wanna either tech or expand in the game.. You're guaranteed that there won't be something like an 11/11 out there on the map cause you're sure that your opponent has been building 12 workers as well, therefore mid-tier units are possible to open with cause you're not endangered of early decision of tech
Hope that makes sense though, but I think I was clear what I wanted to say.. Basically - treat this as a HotS game that starts at 3 minutes in which YOU KNOW outright that there's not a risk to do Tier 2 unit opener(s)..
The difference is that if your opponent tries to go for a what used to be in HotS an aggressive opener - there were some openers that made the opponents have units before the 3 minute mark out on the map already - now - you just scrap all that and make it be a non-possibility instead
That's basically what I was trying to get at.. You can for example rush for a Medivac Mine drop and don't be concerned that you're gonna be at the front 4-gated with 7 Stalkers initially and another 4 to about to be warped BECAUSE there wasn't enough time in the game for the opponent to make his 3 initial Stalkers before the Warpgate finished (that may have even killed some of your Marines when you were trying to scout with them)
Basically - every very early timing attack would suffer the "abscense" of the early deny-scout units that get early on produced that can be included after that in a following attack
If you play with Zerg for example - you know you can do a direct Roach opener cause you know that even if your opponent goes for the standard TvZ Reaper into fast double Hellion opener - you'll just KNOW that the Reaper (the first unit that Terran produced to scout/harass) in fact is by default dead without doing worker damage before that
Hope that makes sense now as well
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@VArsovskiSC: I think you are overthinking the 12worker change.
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Complaining about balance when the game is in an early demo phase is a fool's errand. Blizzard very intentionally makes new units strong, even OP, so that people will use them. If they were weak, or even even with other units, there's no real reason to use them, since I could just play the same as I always have and beat it. Also, I don't know how or why you should expect it to be balanced, they have no data from ladder or tournaments to show how big its impact is.
Also, it's a demo, who cares.
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Looking at how everything is being pushed to mid game and terran getting cloak and sege mode free, what are peoples thoughts on Blink, charge, ling speed and roach speed being free?
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On November 10 2014 09:01 NewSunshine wrote:
Complaining about balance when the game is in an early demo phase is a fool's errand. Blizzard very intentionally makes new units strong, even OP, so that people will use them. If they were weak, or even even with other units, there's no real reason to use them, since I could just play the same as I always have and beat it. Also, I don't know how or why you should expect it to be balanced, they have no data from ladder or tournaments to show how big its impact is.
Also, it's a demo, who cares.
Also they wanted feedback. So what we should do is tell them that we don't want more hardcounters if we actually think so, instead of talking "oh, let's hope someone figures something out". So that for once we don't need threads popping up 3months after the beta "ok guys, this isn't a discussion about the balance of the Colossus/Swarm Host/Cyclone/... but its design. I think it is crap".
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Talking about balance at this point is pointless, maybe talk about what units you like / dislike in the new expansion, but really.....
Do any of you remember WOL or HOTS Beta?
Ok then.
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On November 10 2014 08:56 Big J wrote:
@VArsovskiSC: I think you are overthinking the 12worker change.
I was thinking that as well, but it instead turned out that instead of overthinking - I was actually oversimplifying it in fact :D
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On November 10 2014 07:50 Foxxan wrote:Wow, lurkers with 200hp and 30damage. Really strong unit. Ofcourse, dont know its cost. If it cost 500/500, then not so strong... Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 07:13 Big J wrote:And they already started the cyclone-redesign So it has 5range now (from 6 I think?), 2.81 movement speed (from 2.95) and the page doesn't say anything about an artillery upgrade (+3range). Sounds much better already. I wouldnt call that a redesign. The stats of units were shown during blizzcon or are ppl just guessing? Just curious.
Wish they'd re-design it cosmetically, looks like WALL-E with missile launchers, just do a nice little mech that shoots while walking (no WH ofc).
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EPT
