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On November 10 2014 07:35 VArsovskiSC wrote:OK, decided to separate the wheat from the crop and here's the important thing to focus to get info on: Poll: Does balance (even in showmatch) affect interest to follow the scene ?(Vote): Yes, very much, would like to know where things go towards at (Vote): Yes, skeptical things won't do a drastic change, so would wait to see what happens (Vote): Not really concerned until the game comes out, but would be concerned after (Vote): No, my impression of the game relies solely on my own experience of play, and not viewing of games (Vote): Doesn't matter
That's what will/would get us all the useful overall information
Whose interest, exactly? You care about the interest of a couple of hundred diehards on this site? Or you care about the interest of hundreds of thousands of potential players, who right now flock to DOTA and LOL?
I don't think this poll accounts for their opinions.
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On November 10 2014 09:30 Kharnage wrote: Looking at how everything is being pushed to mid game and terran getting cloak and sege mode free, what are peoples thoughts on Blink, charge, ling speed and roach speed being free?
I'd much rather Siege Mode went back to being an upgrade than remove more upgrades from the game.
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On November 10 2014 09:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 09:01 NewSunshine wrote: Complaining about balance when the game is in an early demo phase is a fool's errand. Blizzard very intentionally makes new units strong, even OP, so that people will use them. If they were weak, or even even with other units, there's no real reason to use them, since I could just play the same as I always have and beat it. Also, I don't know how or why you should expect it to be balanced, they have no data from ladder or tournaments to show how big its impact is.
Also, it's a demo, who cares. Also they wanted feedback. So what we should do is tell them that we don't want more hardcounters if we actually think so, instead of talking "oh, let's hope someone figures something out". So that for once we don't need threads popping up 3months after the beta "ok guys, this isn't a discussion about the balance of the Colossus/Swarm Host/Cyclone/... but its design. I think it is crap".
The feedback they want is not "this is OP", but rather interesting ways to change it. They know about the standard ways to nerf a unit...
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On November 10 2014 09:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 09:01 NewSunshine wrote: Complaining about balance when the game is in an early demo phase is a fool's errand. Blizzard very intentionally makes new units strong, even OP, so that people will use them. If they were weak, or even even with other units, there's no real reason to use them, since I could just play the same as I always have and beat it. Also, I don't know how or why you should expect it to be balanced, they have no data from ladder or tournaments to show how big its impact is.
Also, it's a demo, who cares. Also they wanted feedback. So what we should do is tell them that we don't want more hardcounters if we actually think so, instead of talking "oh, let's hope someone figures something out". So that for once we don't need threads popping up 3months after the beta "ok guys, this isn't a discussion about the balance of the Colossus/Swarm Host/Cyclone/... but its design. I think it is crap". Exactly. If the unit isn't strong enough to be game-winning when playing with it for the first time, players won't give it any time, because they only have so much time to play, without investing into figuring out a unit. This lets the players focus on the actual designs and mechanics of the units.
I really like Blizzard's approach to presenting this expansion, it's completely different to HotS. With HotS, they teased everything for such a long time, without actually being able to play it, but then when they released the beta, and it turned out a lot of it was bad, the resulting balance and design changes all felt awkward. Every time I saw the Oracle or Mothership Core get changed for instance, I feel like it's just another attempt to find a place for the unit, since its original design fell apart almost instantly. What we're seeing so far with LotV is not only units that are much more thought-out, but also presented extremely quickly compared to HotS. This is literally the first time we've seen anything from LotV, and we already got a playable model of the game. Their design and approach to feedback this time around are both substantially better than in HotS. I for one am very hopeful, I feel like Blizzard is on the right path.
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I don't see the disruptor making it to beta.
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On November 10 2014 09:43 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 09:30 Kharnage wrote: Looking at how everything is being pushed to mid game and terran getting cloak and sege mode free, what are peoples thoughts on Blink, charge, ling speed and roach speed being free? I'd much rather Siege Mode went back to being an upgrade than remove more upgrades from the game.
The p[roblem I see at the moment is that toss has no way of dealing with cyclone or range banshee without blink.
I'm also wondering if protoss tech times are too long in a fast expansion style game.
what do people think about removing cybercore requirement for tech structures?
Or removing warp gate research?
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On November 10 2014 09:56 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 09:43 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 10 2014 09:30 Kharnage wrote: Looking at how everything is being pushed to mid game and terran getting cloak and sege mode free, what are peoples thoughts on Blink, charge, ling speed and roach speed being free? I'd much rather Siege Mode went back to being an upgrade than remove more upgrades from the game. The p[roblem I see at the moment is that toss has no way of dealing with cyclone or range banshee without blink. I'm also wondering if protoss tech times are too long in a fast expansion style game. what do people think about removing cybercore requirement for tech structures? Or removing warp gate research? I think its possible in lotv to reduce blink bt by a alot. 50sec? 60sec? And alot of other upgrades such as stim, perhaps zealot charge to.
Cant think of anything more right now tho.
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On November 10 2014 09:56 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 09:43 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 10 2014 09:30 Kharnage wrote: Looking at how everything is being pushed to mid game and terran getting cloak and sege mode free, what are peoples thoughts on Blink, charge, ling speed and roach speed being free? I'd much rather Siege Mode went back to being an upgrade than remove more upgrades from the game. The p[roblem I see at the moment is that toss has no way of dealing with cyclone or range banshee without blink. I'm also wondering if protoss tech times are too long in a fast expansion style game. what do people think about removing cybercore requirement for tech structures? Or removing warp gate research?
Protoss can't deal with range Banshee without blink? What happened to Phoenix? Or Feedback?
Phoenix kills Cyclones dead, too, as do Colossi.
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I hope they make the cyclone really, really fragile as a way of balancing it. I like the concept, but think it having more hp then a siege tank is a bad place to start.
Also make it unable to target buildings. And maybe reduce its damage, but it give it +dmg vs armored. Definitely think it will find a nice niche once all the numbers get figured out
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How fast to disruptors move when charging? I imagine they'd "counter" cyclones if they're fast enough.
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On November 10 2014 10:05 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 09:56 Kharnage wrote:On November 10 2014 09:43 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 10 2014 09:30 Kharnage wrote: Looking at how everything is being pushed to mid game and terran getting cloak and sege mode free, what are peoples thoughts on Blink, charge, ling speed and roach speed being free? I'd much rather Siege Mode went back to being an upgrade than remove more upgrades from the game. The p[roblem I see at the moment is that toss has no way of dealing with cyclone or range banshee without blink. I'm also wondering if protoss tech times are too long in a fast expansion style game. what do people think about removing cybercore requirement for tech structures? Or removing warp gate research? I think its possible in lotv to reduce blink bt by a alot. 50sec? 60sec? And alot of other upgrades such as stim, perhaps zealot charge to. Cant think of anything more right now tho. 
Lair to 10seconds please and Hive for free.
Edit: I don't really like the idea with blink. It is restricting enough for mapmakers as it is.
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On November 10 2014 10:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 10:05 Foxxan wrote:On November 10 2014 09:56 Kharnage wrote:On November 10 2014 09:43 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 10 2014 09:30 Kharnage wrote: Looking at how everything is being pushed to mid game and terran getting cloak and sege mode free, what are peoples thoughts on Blink, charge, ling speed and roach speed being free? I'd much rather Siege Mode went back to being an upgrade than remove more upgrades from the game. The p[roblem I see at the moment is that toss has no way of dealing with cyclone or range banshee without blink. I'm also wondering if protoss tech times are too long in a fast expansion style game. what do people think about removing cybercore requirement for tech structures? Or removing warp gate research? I think its possible in lotv to reduce blink bt by a alot. 50sec? 60sec? And alot of other upgrades such as stim, perhaps zealot charge to. Cant think of anything more right now tho.  Lair to 10seconds please and Hive for free. Edit: I don't really like the idea with blink. It is restricting enough for mapmakers as it is. Indeed. My hope is that, with all the groundshaking changes, Blink doesn't break a map anymore. Particularly in TvP, Hercs can jump wherever the Stalkers do, dampening the true power of the Blink all-ins, being the ability to pick a player apart by abusing the main base.
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On November 10 2014 10:12 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 09:56 Kharnage wrote:On November 10 2014 09:43 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 10 2014 09:30 Kharnage wrote: Looking at how everything is being pushed to mid game and terran getting cloak and sege mode free, what are peoples thoughts on Blink, charge, ling speed and roach speed being free? I'd much rather Siege Mode went back to being an upgrade than remove more upgrades from the game. The p[roblem I see at the moment is that toss has no way of dealing with cyclone or range banshee without blink. I'm also wondering if protoss tech times are too long in a fast expansion style game. what do people think about removing cybercore requirement for tech structures? Or removing warp gate research? Protoss can't deal with range Banshee without blink? What happened to Phoenix? Or Feedback? Phoenix kills Cyclones dead, too, as do Colossi.
Yeah, my initial thought was that PvT will be oracle > phoenix > carrier form now on.
Cyclones can shoot up, so i'm not sure how phoenix are ment to 'stop it dead' Colossus will be decent vs cyclone, but getting colossus without dieing first and expanding will be tricky. Not only that you can't scout something and then decide to go robo because robo opening vs fast cyclone, tank drop harass or banshee will be almost impossible to deal with.
This is actually my reasoning to give protoss blink right off the bat. It allows protoss the ability to go robo without being outright killed to the new terran openings.
it's worth noting that immortals will actually be pretty bad vs cyclone due to speed and lockon. without hardened shields they will take the full 18 damage per shot and be torn apart pretty quickly. Though their new activated ability will allow you to put their shield up and then move back behind your stalkers i guess.
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On November 10 2014 11:01 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 10:34 Big J wrote:On November 10 2014 10:05 Foxxan wrote:On November 10 2014 09:56 Kharnage wrote:On November 10 2014 09:43 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 10 2014 09:30 Kharnage wrote: Looking at how everything is being pushed to mid game and terran getting cloak and sege mode free, what are peoples thoughts on Blink, charge, ling speed and roach speed being free? I'd much rather Siege Mode went back to being an upgrade than remove more upgrades from the game. The p[roblem I see at the moment is that toss has no way of dealing with cyclone or range banshee without blink. I'm also wondering if protoss tech times are too long in a fast expansion style game. what do people think about removing cybercore requirement for tech structures? Or removing warp gate research? I think its possible in lotv to reduce blink bt by a alot. 50sec? 60sec? And alot of other upgrades such as stim, perhaps zealot charge to. Cant think of anything more right now tho.  Lair to 10seconds please and Hive for free. Edit: I don't really like the idea with blink. It is restricting enough for mapmakers as it is. Indeed. My hope is that, with all the groundshaking changes, Blink doesn't break a map anymore. Particularly in TvP, Hercs can jump wherever the Stalkers do, dampening the true power of the Blink all-ins, being the ability to pick a player apart by abusing the main base. Ye exactly. Things wont break anymore cuz of new stuff such as cyclones, herz. Mech might be available. Zerg will get more fun hydralisks etc. Perhaps their upgrades can be faster to.
More powerbetween everything. If they change the economy and focus on the "correct" stuff, ala micro interactions and unit combinations etc it would work out really well. Faster blink means blinkstalker faces cyclone pokes faster. It also means protoss can be agressive without going allin faster.
More action and inteactions early on. Thats the key for a succesfull RTS. Blizzard read this.
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On November 10 2014 07:35 VArsovskiSC wrote:OK, decided to separate the wheat from the crop and here's the important thing to focus to get info on: Poll: Does balance (even in showmatch) affect interest to follow the scene ?(Vote): Yes, very much, would like to know where things go towards at (Vote): Yes, skeptical things won't do a drastic change, so would wait to see what happens (Vote): Not really concerned until the game comes out, but would be concerned after (Vote): No, my impression of the game relies solely on my own experience of play, and not viewing of games (Vote): Doesn't matter
That's what will/would get us all the useful overall information
Balance doesn't make me hate LotV, but it did make me think the cyclone will be heavily nerfed, maybe even removed like the warhound.
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On November 10 2014 11:26 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 10:12 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 10 2014 09:56 Kharnage wrote:On November 10 2014 09:43 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 10 2014 09:30 Kharnage wrote: Looking at how everything is being pushed to mid game and terran getting cloak and sege mode free, what are peoples thoughts on Blink, charge, ling speed and roach speed being free? I'd much rather Siege Mode went back to being an upgrade than remove more upgrades from the game. The p[roblem I see at the moment is that toss has no way of dealing with cyclone or range banshee without blink. I'm also wondering if protoss tech times are too long in a fast expansion style game. what do people think about removing cybercore requirement for tech structures? Or removing warp gate research? Protoss can't deal with range Banshee without blink? What happened to Phoenix? Or Feedback? Phoenix kills Cyclones dead, too, as do Colossi. Yeah, my initial thought was that PvT will be oracle > phoenix > carrier form now on. Cyclones can shoot up, so i'm not sure how phoenix are ment to 'stop it dead'
Can't shoot up if you can't shoot. Graviton, baby. Graviton.
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Hopping on board the hype train. I need to start practicing my macro and really getting back in to SC2.
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Thank you Blizzard for trying out loads of new things. Obviously, not all of them will stay, but the ONE time we have to try big sweeping changes is now, so going crazy is an excellent idea. We can always go back if they turn out poorly.
Love the fact that you're trying economy changes. Barrin was the pioneer of that line of investigation AFAIK, and I like that we can all try them, see whether we can make somthing interesting happen with them.
I'm also very much in favor of trying changes to warp in. Sounds great to me, since warp ins have been a relatively disputed topic, and making defensive warp ins a little weaker seems solid to me. Adds tension to defending.
Terran changes+ Show Spoiler +As for the new Terran units, I like the Herc, but would probably remove the Hellbat if it's going to stay. We really, really don't need both. I don't really know what the cyclone is actually useful for. It's a very original unit, but what do we need it for? My only idea right now is that it could be a -very expensive- unit that allows terran to regain map control early in the TvP matchup. Don't give it a huge range, nor air range for that, though.
Love the change to tank drops, great idea. Maybe we thus can find a role for tanks? Now they've been superseded by Mines in all but TvT. And I love them, but mines make for better gameplay for SCII pros. Thor repair isn't going to fix much I think, we'll need to keep thinking on that front. It's proven a hard unit to make interesting. Banshee buffs are probably a good idea, we've never seen them on the lategame and they could make for some multifront agression. Don't think we actully need extra range on the early game, but we'll see. We have to make sure we keep the marine-banshee interaction though. That's the most interesting part about banshees. The BC buff is awesome. Probably won't make them useful, but it's cool, and seeing how BCs are basically for us noobs to enjoy, I'm fine with that.
Zerg Changes+ Show Spoiler +I like the idea to buff roach hydra with morphs to both. Lurkers seem good against protoss deathballs, though bad against terran bio (too fast I'd think). I'm down with that. Don't know what to make of ravagers other than that I'd like Toss to rely somewhat less on forcefields agains zerg, so the general idea seems alright, even if the ability seems otherwise very limited. Toss WILL need something to compensate though.
Making Nydus Worms useful is a worthy task, but I'm not convinced you've cracked the code just yet. The current idea seems to allow for very little counterplay. I like that you've redesigned SHs, I think the new design is solid. Hopefully it's balanceable, cause it does seem slightly complex (useless or overpowering). Infestors play well with Ling-Muta with the new attack buff, and they've always gone well with bane-ultra (Fungal). Excellent choice. Not sold at all on the new corruptor ability, it seems very voidray-esque. We'll see. I like that you're trying something for them though, they might be the most boring unit in Starcraft II (which is a great thing for the game!).
Zerg changes in general seem to define two compositions. I like this, it's like Mech and Bio! Ling Bling Muta Ultra Infestor (maybe even Broodlord for sieges) (Zerg Melee) Roach Hydra Lurker Ravager Swarm Host Vyper (Zerg Ranged)
Protoss Changes+ Show Spoiler +I love the idea behind the Toss Disruptor. Colossi look cool, but they function in a very basic way. They kill mass ground units. The disruptor is to become the quasi-replacement just like the mine quasi-replaced the siege tank, making for more active play (and I say that having the siege tank as my favourite unit!). It also seems quite micro intensive, which is excellent. It should also come online faster than Colossi and act as a deterrent to SCV all-ins, which are honestly used too often (as a Terran).
Thank you for the Immortal changes. Immortals should be good against tanks, and with their 50 attack they still should be, but now it's less harsh. This might be the single biggest mech buff in TvP. Tank lovers like me will rejoice. Buffing the Warp Prism may make Toss Colossus/Disruptor drops somewhat viable, which I'd love. Give those units a second purpose and make robotics play less deathball-y! The carrier buff looks like it might make them useful in the late game (mostly against mech)! I'm floored! Yeah! Bring it on! The oracle change was obvious. This makes it a unit you might actually want for army vs army combat. And it also promotes spreading of units. Good idea overall. I'm quite uncomfortable with the Tempest though. If the Carrier is the long-range air weapon, what's the tempest for? We really don't need it!
Overall, I love the thought process Blizzard, rock on.
PS: removing the Hellbat, the Tempest, and the Swarm Host (if it can't be balanced properly) is a "fair" ('cause it removes one unit from each race) way to proceed. We know you played with the idea in HOTS (carriers and thors). It's honestly not a bad idea, but you should probably remove one unit from each race, if only for PR purposes for noobs like me.
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I think these changes are awesome, so psyched for LOTV. I think the main omission is that Zerg was not given an anticaster unit. High Templars and Ravens are still uncounterable for Zerg. I could see that leading to a toxic meta down the road.
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On November 10 2014 12:33 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 11:26 Kharnage wrote:On November 10 2014 10:12 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 10 2014 09:56 Kharnage wrote:On November 10 2014 09:43 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 10 2014 09:30 Kharnage wrote: Looking at how everything is being pushed to mid game and terran getting cloak and sege mode free, what are peoples thoughts on Blink, charge, ling speed and roach speed being free? I'd much rather Siege Mode went back to being an upgrade than remove more upgrades from the game. The p[roblem I see at the moment is that toss has no way of dealing with cyclone or range banshee without blink. I'm also wondering if protoss tech times are too long in a fast expansion style game. what do people think about removing cybercore requirement for tech structures? Or removing warp gate research? Protoss can't deal with range Banshee without blink? What happened to Phoenix? Or Feedback? Phoenix kills Cyclones dead, too, as do Colossi. Yeah, my initial thought was that PvT will be oracle > phoenix > carrier form now on. Cyclones can shoot up, so i'm not sure how phoenix are ment to 'stop it dead' Can't shoot up if you can't shoot. Graviton, baby. Graviton.
Can't graviton if you die in 2.5seconds to two cyclones. It's more realistic to Graviton mass stimmed marines than a few cyclones, because the marines at least die when they are gravitoned. Even if you graviton a few of them, the rest will wreck your gravitoning phoenix before they can kill it.
This thing has more dps than an Immortal against armored when it locks on you.
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