On November 10 2014 04:04 RaFox17 wrote: About the lurker. Can someone explain to me how 6 range lurker is going to deal with bio+tanks? Will it one shot bio or have really high attack speed? Are you supposed just have few of them to add some damage? They seems so immobile that Bio can easily go around them and in drop defence scan+marauders will kill them in a second.
Marauders alone can deal even with 10 range Lurkers. That is the main reason people were saying how Lurkers wouldn't work in SC2. But Lurkers aren't supposed to be alone, you will have support of Lings and Banes and even Mutas. Lurkers are most likely made so Zerg doesn't have to rely on Banelings as much.
If terran has tanks he can force an engagement away from lurkers and they are basically useless then. Simply can´t se many situations that lurkers would be useful. Banes offer mobility and don´t force you to sit in a one place. To make lurkers useful i feel like they should have insane dps.
On November 10 2014 04:04 RaFox17 wrote: About the lurker. Can someone explain to me how 6 range lurker is going to deal with bio+tanks? Will it one shot bio or have really high attack speed? Are you supposed just have few of them to add some damage? They seems so immobile that Bio can easily go around them and in drop defence scan+marauders will kill them in a second.
It just promotes positional play. You place like 3 of them at a choke. Burrowed vanes are similar but rely on not being scanned. Even if you scan lurkers, they still can hold off small amounts of bio very cost efficiently. Bane are just wasted.
They also synergize well with hydras, given same tech path and upgrades. If you stim into the lurkers to snipe, hydras get insane dps and finish off the unit that the lurker did initial dmg too.
On November 10 2014 04:04 RaFox17 wrote: About the lurker. Can someone explain to me how 6 range lurker is going to deal with bio+tanks? Will it one shot bio or have really high attack speed? Are you supposed just have few of them to add some damage? They seems so immobile that Bio can easily go around them and in drop defence scan+marauders will kill them in a second.
Marauders alone can deal even with 10 range Lurkers. That is the main reason people were saying how Lurkers wouldn't work in SC2. But Lurkers aren't supposed to be alone, you will have support of Lings and Banes and even Mutas. Lurkers are most likely made so Zerg doesn't have to rely on Banelings as much.
If terran has tanks he can force an engagement away from lurkers and they are basically useless then. Simply can´t se many situations that lurkers would be useful. Banes offer mobility and don´t force you to sit in a one place. To make lurkers useful i feel like they should have insane dps.
So lurkers force tanks, that's something in itself. They can be used to force the Terran to slowpush. Creep is the only thing that forces t to move out slowly at the moment instead of beelining to the base. Lurkers can do that offcreep. That's exactly how BW worked.
Also, if you just "walk around" lurkers you are setting yourself up to be flanked as well have limited retreat options.
It is mentioned in 1 of those exhibition matches and you can see how now PDD lasts about 10 seconds or something like that. There are lost of hidden changes that are not "officially" mentioned, like Colossus having 8 range instead of 9 now I believe (not sure about this one however).
Wow. it seems like blizzard has done everything to please the whiners on the battle.net forum. not long and they will realize that these type of people complain about everything, no matter what you change.
They believe the Raven is causing all the late-game stalemates and so they just went ahead and did this change. So I don't think you will be now able to do anything against mass (faster) Tempests with HT/Archon and stuff under them. Unless there are other hidden changes I'm not aware of.
So I guess for meching Terran, once you scan Stargates, pull SCV and thats it.
You are whining about something that isn't even in the game yet. If you think that everything from the game will pass the beta testing, then you are doing something wrong if you are not winning the game in the first 10 minutes with Cyclones.
Of course that many of these will be nerfed, Cyclones, invulnerability of Disruptors, probably the Nydus too and my guess is that Tempest's range will be reduced since they are not the snipers of important units anymore.
I'm theorycrafting with informations I currently have (thus counting with what IS in the game right now). You, on the other hand, base your argument on your guesses what will be nerfed (thus counting with what ISN'T in the game right now).
Then theorycraft no more, no TvP will get past 15 minutes with Cyclones, you can be sure about that. If you didn't watch exhibition matches, you can go and watch them now, you will understand what I'm talking about.
Meh. Did anyone open zealots+sentries with a fast WG? Then tech into blink and go stalkers. Blink stalkers beat cyclones or atleast very good against them. Then the game opens up.
Its not like they played any good. For instance, they made immortals but didnt use immortals abilities in the big fight.
You realize that when first Cyclone comes up you barely have few units? No, Sentries won't stop 9-range Cyclone from killing everything you have. Cyclone has 200 HP, and with his DPS he can easily kill 2 Stalkers without kiting and still live, or he can kill 4+ Stalkers with kiting, his stats are that retarded.
Yeah but stats are easy to change
Of course, that is my whole point. We shouldn't discuss these things now but in beta. I don't really dislike Cyclone concept, just his stats(and his model).
For the warhound I waited for the stats to call OP... But with Cyclone I don't think I need them lol. The very concept is OP, it's like a ground phoenix with higher range that actually deals big damage to armoured and hits air. What doesn't that counter, other than speedlings and sieged tanks? Collo got a range nerf to add salt
In the BW, lurkers did offer positional and defensive advantage for early-mid game for zerg. But once terran has tanks out lurkers became vulnerable and thats where darkswarm came in. With dark swarm units under it would take zero damage from ranged unit so lurkers/lings/ultra became staple for zerg late game. But in SC2 there is no darkswarm... so things like lurkers would melt against tanks or marauders or cyclones.
On November 10 2014 04:04 RaFox17 wrote: About the lurker. Can someone explain to me how 6 range lurker is going to deal with bio+tanks? Will it one shot bio or have really high attack speed? Are you supposed just have few of them to add some damage? They seems so immobile that Bio can easily go around them and in drop defence scan+marauders will kill them in a second.
Marauders alone can deal even with 10 range Lurkers. That is the main reason people were saying how Lurkers wouldn't work in SC2. But Lurkers aren't supposed to be alone, you will have support of Lings and Banes and even Mutas. Lurkers are most likely made so Zerg doesn't have to rely on Banelings as much.
If terran has tanks he can force an engagement away from lurkers and they are basically useless then. Simply can´t se many situations that lurkers would be useful. Banes offer mobility and don´t force you to sit in a one place. To make lurkers useful i feel like they should have insane dps.
So lurkers force tanks, that's something in itself. They can be used to force the Terran to slowpush. Creep is the only thing that forces t to move out slowly at the moment instead of beelining to the base. Lurkers can do that offcreep. That's exactly how BW worked.
Also, if you just "walk around" lurkers you are setting yourself up to be flanked as well have limited retreat options.
The problem is that zerg should not attack offcreep so i don´t think they will be used there and there´s no way they will do anything against bio army without support which means that slowing down terran offcreep forces you to fight offcreep also. Lurkers simply seem to take away the mobility of ling/bling and be way worse than Snutes SH/ling/Bling style. Naturally it´s hard to say anything for sure before beta but this is just what comes to my mind. Either it´s gonna be op or useless.
On November 10 2014 04:26 [Crimson]Bason wrote: In the BW, lurkers did offer positional and defensive advantage for early-mid game for zerg. But once terran has tanks out lurkers became vulnerable and thats where darkswarm came in. With dark swarm units under it would take zero damage from ranged unit so lurkers/lings/ultra became staple for zerg late game. But in SC2 there is no darkswarm... so things like lurkers would melt against tanks or marauders or cyclones.
Can´t help put to smirk every time somebody mentions cyclones :D
Right now IMO from what I could've seen I think that the only viable opener in TvP is either as mass as possible Blink Stalkers, or Oracle rush ASAP
And about that second one - don't quite know how much energy does the Oracle ward cost anyway
So yes - Cyclone stats are OP.. I think I'd reduce the "latching" range down to 4 instead of 6 and the upgrade of it to 8 instead of 9.. Regardless - I think that the Cyclone needs reduction in the HP or damage
But yes - think I like the concept of the unit (just as I've said before though), but it's stats are outright brutal - doesn't even require any testing to see that
On November 10 2014 04:04 RaFox17 wrote: About the lurker. Can someone explain to me how 6 range lurker is going to deal with bio+tanks? Will it one shot bio or have really high attack speed? Are you supposed just have few of them to add some damage? They seems so immobile that Bio can easily go around them and in drop defence scan+marauders will kill them in a second.
Marauders alone can deal even with 10 range Lurkers. That is the main reason people were saying how Lurkers wouldn't work in SC2. But Lurkers aren't supposed to be alone, you will have support of Lings and Banes and even Mutas. Lurkers are most likely made so Zerg doesn't have to rely on Banelings as much.
They are designed to break up roach vs roach wars in zvz and force the Protoss ball to split up. Once you have a bunch of them with the range 9 upgrade Protoss can't engange directly (new tempest ability will help, just as radiation). Of course we should see some sick traps or contains with them too .
Lurkers sounds like are a very natural follow up to Roach Hydra ZvT Roach Lurker Hydra sounds great, its like widow mines, they lack mobility but they can zone out bio. edit: yeah and tanks zone out zerg, but im expecting TvT-like tactics, tanks unsiege and roach hydra engages, lurkers unburrow and bio stims
On November 10 2014 02:20 Charoisaur wrote: [quote]
Wow. it seems like blizzard has done everything to please the whiners on the battle.net forum. not long and they will realize that these type of people complain about everything, no matter what you change.
They believe the Raven is causing all the late-game stalemates and so they just went ahead and did this change. So I don't think you will be now able to do anything against mass (faster) Tempests with HT/Archon and stuff under them. Unless there are other hidden changes I'm not aware of.
So I guess for meching Terran, once you scan Stargates, pull SCV and thats it.
You are whining about something that isn't even in the game yet. If you think that everything from the game will pass the beta testing, then you are doing something wrong if you are not winning the game in the first 10 minutes with Cyclones.
Of course that many of these will be nerfed, Cyclones, invulnerability of Disruptors, probably the Nydus too and my guess is that Tempest's range will be reduced since they are not the snipers of important units anymore.
I'm theorycrafting with informations I currently have (thus counting with what IS in the game right now). You, on the other hand, base your argument on your guesses what will be nerfed (thus counting with what ISN'T in the game right now).
Then theorycraft no more, no TvP will get past 15 minutes with Cyclones, you can be sure about that. If you didn't watch exhibition matches, you can go and watch them now, you will understand what I'm talking about.
Meh. Did anyone open zealots+sentries with a fast WG? Then tech into blink and go stalkers. Blink stalkers beat cyclones or atleast very good against them. Then the game opens up.
Its not like they played any good. For instance, they made immortals but didnt use immortals abilities in the big fight.
You realize that when first Cyclone comes up you barely have few units? No, Sentries won't stop 9-range Cyclone from killing everything you have. Cyclone has 200 HP, and with his DPS he can easily kill 2 Stalkers without kiting and still live, or he can kill 4+ Stalkers with kiting, his stats are that retarded.
Yeah but stats are easy to change
Of course, that is my whole point. We shouldn't discuss these things now but in beta. I don't really dislike Cyclone concept, just his stats(and his model).
For the warhound I waited for the stats to call OP... But with Cyclone I don't think I need them lol. The very concept is OP, it's like a ground phoenix with higher range that actually deals big damage to armoured and hits air. What doesn't that counter, other than speedlings and sieged tanks? Collo got a range nerf to add salt
Well don't you have it backwards lol, the warhound was a stupid 1-a unit with no micro, just mass them and win, the cyclone has more potential,
I mean how about giving it less damage in general a small + to armored lower the HP a lot and lower the amount of attacks it can make before having to lock on again, that way you can have for example your main mech army of tank+thor in sieging up and small amounts of hellion/cyclone roaming the map picking up units here and there, it would be like having a pack of blink stalkers roaming the map or a small MMM hit squad, with good control you can damage the enemy army harras and have map control but if you fuck up you lose your strike force, right now is only op because it hasn't been toyed enough, but I really like the concept, it should be tested a lot,
Also I will be willing to bet with anyone that they are going to give something to protoss early game, most likely a new unit, I mean nerf WP, nerf PO, nerf deathballs, all the things we always said were the reason gateway armies couldn't be strong on its own are being changed and I guess we all know what that means,
I just.... Call me a well to do white teenage girl from the suburbs but I can't even. I am so fucking excited for where Starcraft is headed both as a game and as an eSport! Bring on The Void!
They always make the units crazy OP to see how it works and then nerf the crap out of it. Roach, Void Ray, Shredder, Ultralisk Burrow Charge, Infestor, etc etc
Why are people acting so surprised that cyclones are OP?
You also can't accuse blizzard of just adding for the sake of adding when they put in the lurker (for the third time)?
I think the corrosive bile should hit the ground making the ground unforcefieldable, so you can do it pre emptively.
The problem is that zerg should not attack offcreep
and therein lies the problem with zerg in SC2. To make that possible it means either they have to make creep spread broken as hell, or the zerg just sits in one corner of the map. Hopefully the new mineral changes and things will help make zerg and all the other races spread out more.
In BW if someone turtled on 3 base, you'd just expand to another 3 and out macro them, but currently in SC2 you don't even gain any benefit from doing that which is why the games are not as dynamic and varied as they could be.
The problem is that zerg should not attack offcreep
and therein lies the problem with zerg in SC2. To make that possible it means either they have to make creep spread broken as hell, or the zerg just sits in one corner of the map. Hopefully the new mineral changes and things will help make zerg and all the other races spread out more.
In BW if someone turtled on 3 base, you'd just expand to another 3 and out macro them, but currently in SC2 you don't even gain any benefit from doing that which is why the games are not as dynamic and varied as they could be.
The problem is that zerg should not attack offcreep
and therein lies the problem with zerg in SC2. To make that possible it means either they have to make creep spread broken as hell, or the zerg just sits in one corner of the map. Hopefully the new mineral changes and things will help make zerg and all the other races spread out more.
In BW if someone turtled on 3 base, you'd just expand to another 3 and out macro them, but currently in SC2 you don't even gain any benefit from doing that which is why the games are not as dynamic and varied as they could be.
and this is also being changed...
Yes it is, which is good! I'm holding out hope that I'll find enjoyment in SC2 again with LoTV, but currently (current being HoTS) what I said is true.
EPT
