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On November 09 2014 04:19 Espers wrote:
why would I ever harass with this Swarm Host instead of using the more versatile Mutalisk? seems like such an overlap.
That was exactly what I thought:
If I can't reach it by ground and it isn't defended, go there with mutalisks not with SHs. Like, do I invest into a unit that costs a lot to rarely harass but is bad in combat, or do I build a regenerating, flying superfighter that has no downtime ever and can deal with all the mobile threats of my opponent for similar cost/supply?
If I can reach it by ground and it isn't defended, use any zerg unit at all because they are still all faster than the Swarm Host/Locust stuff.
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Canada3217 Posts
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Mexico2170 Posts
Well , i think people will use swarmhost because they'll be almost inmortal now.
You go, siege a little and go. 0 damage taken, while with mutalisk, well 2 widow mine shots and the mutalisk are no more.
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So I've been holding back on all my critique on the new units until I saw them in a fair amount of action. I had a nervous reaction to most of the changes, but I've grown comfortable with most.
TvZ is great (not perfect). That herc grapple to save it was amazing. That ravager hit on the moving medivac that ALMOST killed it tells me that this could be a really exciting matchup later on. Especially when you consider the cost of losing not only the medivac, but a whole tank. At this point I choose to believe that David Kim was correct when he said speedlings were a direct counter to the Cyclone. As far as I can tell that seems pretty accurate. I was a little confused at how fast the nydus died to only SCVs even with the buff, but I can wait on that.
ZvP is also great (not perfect). Again, ravagers look like a great addition to the matchup, where if they manage to hit stalkers with the cooldown ability, it could make for a great engagement. It was amazing to see the stalker dodge lurker hits while they were focused down. That in combination with the multiple armies and several bases reminded me of BW at the time a lot. Also amazed at how good carriers are. I think the disruptors had poor micro most of the game, so those should be better than what we saw initially. Tempests to take out base defenses is a good choice and what they were meant for to begin with.
TvP is not so great right now. I do like the herc stalker dynamic, but it is clear that the cyclone seems to be a problem in the matchup, making it fairly one-sided. This makes me extremely skeptical of the unit, because while I do believe speedlings are the answer in Z, we didn't see speedlings and the cyclone also dominated that matchup. As a high plat low diamond, I'm not gonna spew my bullshit about what should change, but this is the only thing in the game I'm willing to admit needs tweaking at the current time. It's good that fast banshee can't outrun phoenix. Again, I'd like to see some disruptor play in the matchup as I think that will help P, but again, we may see a phasing out of bio as mech becomes violently viable in this matchup with tank pickups in addition to the banshee and cyclone.
I do like the econ change as it causes players to expand faster. The micro focus in LotV as well as new harass opportunities is going to cause you to split your army far more. These two things work together to bring us what I believe to be a return to BW / Starbow style battles where army supply doesn't max out quite so often and engagements can happen all over the map. I'm worried about turtling, as I saw P do it far too often, but I'm willing to wait until I get my hands on it to say much more than that.
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On November 09 2014 04:24 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
locusts can fly now tho.
But according to the trailer, it looked like they had to land before they could attack?
Can anyone confirm?
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^ Yeah. It looked pretty gross
The flying was more for transportation than to be AA locusts
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On November 09 2014 04:30 Holdenintherye wrote:But according to the trailer, it looked like they had to land before they could attack? Can anyone confirm?
From when jaedong and zest used them, they acted like brood lings. They would fly over to the target then land and attack. Locust also have way more dps.
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Guess sh are useless now (not that I liked the hots sh). It's now basically a unit that will turn into a useless and clumsy chunk of supply everytime a wave of locust has died (until spawn is ready again). Having a few of those will open up way too risky time windows for your opponent to exploit. Why would you spend that tech and resources and supply. And flying locusts won't be available before lategame (hive I guess), so basically when it's waaaaay to risky to use supply for something like that (should you ever even get to having the time/resources for some upgraded sh).
Nydus being invincible while burrowing is pretty useless as well, because if seen it gets easily killed even after finishing. If not being seen, well then it doesn't need to be invulnerable. No real difference from before. Invisibility (but maybe detectable) or simply no stupid scream would have made an interesting difference.
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Canada3217 Posts
On November 09 2014 04:32 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 04:30 Holdenintherye wrote:On November 09 2014 04:24 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
locusts can fly now tho. But according to the trailer, it looked like they had to land before they could attack? Can anyone confirm? From when jaedong and zest used them, they acted like brood lings. They would fly over to the target then land and attack. Locust also have way more dps.
yeah saw locusts shred a nexus in like 3 seconds flat... it was ridiculous, like there was no way to save it once the locusts were spawned
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On November 09 2014 04:34 inken wrote:
Guess sh are useless now (not that I liked the hots sh).
I think that's the whole point of the change.
Blizzard doesn't want to remove the SH altogether (as that would be admitting that the unit was wrong in the first place), they just make it completely cost ineffective.
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On November 09 2014 04:35 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 04:32 royalroadweed wrote:On November 09 2014 04:30 Holdenintherye wrote:On November 09 2014 04:24 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
locusts can fly now tho. But according to the trailer, it looked like they had to land before they could attack? Can anyone confirm? From when jaedong and zest used them, they acted like brood lings. They would fly over to the target then land and attack. Locust also have way more dps. yeah saw locusts shred a nexus in like 3 seconds flat... it was ridiculous, like there was no way to save it once the locusts were spawned
Yep. They killed the nexus the geysers and the pylons before I realized what happened. Tbh I kinda loved it. As a terran player there's something special about watching a nexus die.
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On November 09 2014 04:35 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 04:32 royalroadweed wrote:On November 09 2014 04:30 Holdenintherye wrote:On November 09 2014 04:24 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
locusts can fly now tho. But according to the trailer, it looked like they had to land before they could attack? Can anyone confirm? From when jaedong and zest used them, they acted like brood lings. They would fly over to the target then land and attack. Locust also have way more dps. yeah saw locusts shred a nexus in like 3 seconds flat... it was ridiculous, like there was no way to save it once the locusts were spawned
Yes, but they also travelled like 10seconds after being spawned from a ground unit that first had to travel by land to a location that is pretty specific to that maps natural expansion and wait for a 60 cooldown to reset.
In the time it took the hosts to wait and spawn and the locusts to travel 20mutalisks would have done the same thing to that location with less risks during traveling and without being combatincapable for 60seconds afterwards.
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In the time it took the hosts to wait and spawn and the locusts to travel 20mutalisks would have done the same thing to that location with less risks during traveling and without being combatincapable for 60seconds afterwards.
These Swarm Hosts will be absolutely impossible to balance as you cannot have a unit that only does something every 60th second. And it can still stay safely away from battle, so there is no unit vs unit interaction here.
I don't think it will make it into beta.
Also, it has an upgrade to burrow while spawning? Why exactly would that be useful. Kinda feels like a lastminute change.
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It seemed like every time David Kim was asked a question, he just answered with a pre-programmed response. We might as well have had a robot up there answering questions.
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On November 09 2014 04:44 ineversmile wrote:
It seemed like every time David Kim was asked a question, he just answered with a pre-programmed response. We might as well have had a robot up there answering questions.
Welcome to modern PR
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On November 09 2014 04:43 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +In the time it took the hosts to wait and spawn and the locusts to travel 20mutalisks would have done the same thing to that location with less risks during traveling and without being combatincapable for 60seconds afterwards. These Swarm Hosts will be absolutely impossible to balance as you cannot have a unit that only does something every 60th second. And it can still stay safely away from battle, so there is no unit vs unit interaction here. I don't think it will make it into beta. Also, it has an upgrade to burrow while spawning? Why exactly would that be useful. Kinda feels like a lastminute change.
The new swarm host fails the first question I ask of a unit: What purpose does it have that cannot be fullfilled by another unit better; i.e. why would I ever build that unit?
And then of course you are completely right the interactions are still horrible. It's not fun to use a unit and then have it 60seconds sit afk and defenseless. While the best interaction method for the opponent with locusts is to still just not interact with them, because they're still free units.
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On November 09 2014 04:44 ineversmile wrote:
It seemed like every time David Kim was asked a question, he just answered with a pre-programmed response. We might as well have had a robot up there answering questions.
I think people are too hard on Kim in general. He seemed extremely candid to me, not programmed. He's not a pro and he knows it. Has there been a StarCraft reveal ever in which they invite actual pros to put it through the ringer on the exact same day? I mean, Kim answered most of the questions satisfactorily while admitting that everything was subject to change.
And the icing on the cake is that they're trying to break their own game right out of the gate by having MC, Polt, Jaedong, and Hyun test it over a public stream. Imagine you were the spokesperson in charge of giving official Blizzard input on a day like that.
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People are also ignoring the fact that LotV clearly puts more micro possibilities into player's hands. And now they have two of the best players in the world playing the game together so someone can freely just sit and babysit their cyclones with perfect micro which may not play out that way in a real game due to being forced to macro behind all this micro. IMO everyone is way overreacting to some of this omg imba stuff.
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On November 09 2014 04:55 Tenks wrote:
People are also ignoring the fact that LotV clearly puts more micro possibilities into player's hands. And now they have two of the best players in the world playing the game together so someone can freely just sit and babysit their cyclones with perfect micro which may not play out that way in a real game due to being forced to macro behind all this micro. IMO everyone is way overreacting to some of this omg imba stuff.
You're kidding, people will be able to do that and macro all they have to do is click and pull back, the range/speed is enough to make it simple and allow them time to macro. The fact that in the first game 2 cyclones got combined 64 kills on Roaches/Hydra/Lurker/Corrupter ect makes them seem really op.
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On November 09 2014 05:01 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 04:55 Tenks wrote:
People are also ignoring the fact that LotV clearly puts more micro possibilities into player's hands. And now they have two of the best players in the world playing the game together so someone can freely just sit and babysit their cyclones with perfect micro which may not play out that way in a real game due to being forced to macro behind all this micro. IMO everyone is way overreacting to some of this omg imba stuff. You're kidding, people will be able to do that and macro all they have to do is click and pull back, the range/speed is enough to make it simple and allow them time to macro. The fact that in the first game 2 cyclones got combined 64 kills on Roaches/Hydra/Lurker/Corrupter ect makes them seem really op.
Yes, ofc, terran players are rarely looking at their base anyway. All focus is on microing/babysitting units anyway.
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EPT
