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On November 09 2014 05:01 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 04:55 Tenks wrote:
People are also ignoring the fact that LotV clearly puts more micro possibilities into player's hands. And now they have two of the best players in the world playing the game together so someone can freely just sit and babysit their cyclones with perfect micro which may not play out that way in a real game due to being forced to macro behind all this micro. IMO everyone is way overreacting to some of this omg imba stuff. You're kidding, people will be able to do that and macro all they have to do is click and pull back, the range/speed is enough to make it simple and allow them time to macro. The fact that in the first game 2 cyclones got combined 64 kills on Roaches/Hydra/Lurker/Corrupter ect makes them seem really op.
Throwing slow roaches and Ravager shots at them is obviously not the way to deal with them.
10 speedlings and they would have been toast. This wasn't a real game, it was a showmatch with people fucking around with new units.
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On November 09 2014 05:09 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 05:01 Ovid wrote:On November 09 2014 04:55 Tenks wrote:
People are also ignoring the fact that LotV clearly puts more micro possibilities into player's hands. And now they have two of the best players in the world playing the game together so someone can freely just sit and babysit their cyclones with perfect micro which may not play out that way in a real game due to being forced to macro behind all this micro. IMO everyone is way overreacting to some of this omg imba stuff. You're kidding, people will be able to do that and macro all they have to do is click and pull back, the range/speed is enough to make it simple and allow them time to macro. The fact that in the first game 2 cyclones got combined 64 kills on Roaches/Hydra/Lurker/Corrupter ect makes them seem really op. Throwing slow roaches and Ravager shots at them is obviously not the way to deal with them. 10 speedlings and they would have been toast. This wasn't a real game, it was a showmatch with people fucking around with new units.
Did you see the protoss game?
How do they deal with it?
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On November 09 2014 05:09 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 05:01 Ovid wrote:On November 09 2014 04:55 Tenks wrote:
People are also ignoring the fact that LotV clearly puts more micro possibilities into player's hands. And now they have two of the best players in the world playing the game together so someone can freely just sit and babysit their cyclones with perfect micro which may not play out that way in a real game due to being forced to macro behind all this micro. IMO everyone is way overreacting to some of this omg imba stuff. You're kidding, people will be able to do that and macro all they have to do is click and pull back, the range/speed is enough to make it simple and allow them time to macro. The fact that in the first game 2 cyclones got combined 64 kills on Roaches/Hydra/Lurker/Corrupter ect makes them seem really op. Throwing slow roaches and Ravager shots at them is obviously not the way to deal with them. 10 speedlings and they would have been toast. This wasn't a real game, it was a showmatch with people fucking around with new units.
but then its just another hardcounter which we didn't want anymore of!
Another unit that just says: build X or you die. If you build X, it can easily kill it and he dies!
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On November 09 2014 04:55 Tenks wrote:
People are also ignoring the fact that LotV clearly puts more micro possibilities into player's hands. And now they have two of the best players in the world playing the game together so someone can freely just sit and babysit their cyclones with perfect micro which may not play out that way in a real game due to being forced to macro behind all this micro. IMO everyone is way overreacting to some of this omg imba stuff.
That's the reason I think the Banshee's changes will stay, people will learn to defend. But the cyclone is way more extreme.
I hope the unit is reworked and not removed.
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On November 09 2014 05:10 Tileks wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 04:55 Tenks wrote:
People are also ignoring the fact that LotV clearly puts more micro possibilities into player's hands. And now they have two of the best players in the world playing the game together so someone can freely just sit and babysit their cyclones with perfect micro which may not play out that way in a real game due to being forced to macro behind all this micro. IMO everyone is way overreacting to some of this omg imba stuff. That's the reason I think the Banshee's changes will stay, people will learn to defend. But the cyclone is way more extreme. I hope the unit is reworked and not removed.
I hope it's removed. I don't see which role it fulfills that already existing units couldn't fulfill.
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I'm with someone else in this thread who said what the Cyclone needs first is a damage nerf. It really becomes a question of where you want to put your APM at that point.
You shouldn't be able to kill a stalker in 5 seconds with a single move command. Increasing that to 15 seconds means more dancing, greater chance of dying, and potentially forgetting macro. I like the unit, but I think we want to start there.
EDIT: typo.
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On November 09 2014 05:10 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 05:09 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 05:01 Ovid wrote:On November 09 2014 04:55 Tenks wrote:
People are also ignoring the fact that LotV clearly puts more micro possibilities into player's hands. And now they have two of the best players in the world playing the game together so someone can freely just sit and babysit their cyclones with perfect micro which may not play out that way in a real game due to being forced to macro behind all this micro. IMO everyone is way overreacting to some of this omg imba stuff. You're kidding, people will be able to do that and macro all they have to do is click and pull back, the range/speed is enough to make it simple and allow them time to macro. The fact that in the first game 2 cyclones got combined 64 kills on Roaches/Hydra/Lurker/Corrupter ect makes them seem really op. Throwing slow roaches and Ravager shots at them is obviously not the way to deal with them. 10 speedlings and they would have been toast. This wasn't a real game, it was a showmatch with people fucking around with new units. Did you see the protoss game? How do they deal with it?
Forcefield, Blink, Phoenix lift, Stasis Wards?
And I'm not saying the Cyclone isn't OP right now but all it needs is a small damage nerf and maybe something else (longer lock-on time?). The people crying for it to be removed are ridiculous.
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Omg, HERCs alone could make me switch from Zerg to Terran. What a cool design ! Ravager seems also pretty cool, especially used in synergy with fungal.
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I think a cannon at the ramp would do wonders as well against the unit
I wouldn't be shocked if they made it so the unit can't hit air though
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On November 08 2014 23:33 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 23:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 08 2014 23:18 Hider wrote:On November 08 2014 23:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 08 2014 22:54 Hider wrote:
I was mostly refering to the fact that 2 Cyclones shared about 70 kills between them before Terran ended the game by showing Battlecruisers. I do agree with you that the Hellion+Cyclone (theocraftically) seems unstoppable.
Units that can kite infinitely without taking any damage in a typical situation is never gonna work out. The range on the Cyclone is simply way too high vs Roaches. Also, give zerg some new stuff early game if you want to add further options to terran in the early/early midgame. Speedroach, speedling->cyclone?
Cyclone+herc might work well vs roach and speedling. Hellion + Cyclone. I don't know how a Roach/Speedling player can attack into that as long as terran just kites infinitely. Yeah I agree that Hellion + Cyclone looks to be pretty insane... if the Cyclone became slower, had shorter range, or shot less frequently, then that should help a bit. Yeh, so here is still my issue with Blizzard. Coming to the conclusion that Cyclone has too high range combined with too fast movement speed so it creates a bad interaction isn't very difficult. It would take 2 minutes in the unit tester to see that. These guys have like 8+ years of game development experience with Starcraft, so you would think they knew the basic check-list on what to test. So why on earth hasn't anyone at Blizzard tweaked those numbers before they released it into alpha? To me this just indicates that they are making the same errors as they have done previously by not focussing enough on making the various unit interactions fun. As far as I remember, these sort of teaser releases are just to show potential extremes and build hype more than anything else, and they care very little about realistic balance this early. Remember the shredder?  They have plenty of time to balance/ buff/ nerf/ remove things. There's no doubt in my mind that the cyclone will be modified. Indeed! And i do like the direction they are going with unit design. BUT there is a crucial mistake they absolutely must fix. Terran is getting early and mid-game buffs, zerg mid-late game buffs and protoss... early game nerfs and a strange robo unit. They should think again about some stuff XD, its not just about tweaking the numbers.
Immortal nerfed. Planetary Nexus can't attack air. Forcefields nerfed. Warping in nerfed. Tempest gets super lategame upgrade. Oracle and single new Protoss unit gimmickiness is where we can rest all our hope so far in this Protoss expansion. Warp Prism micro made easier but not really more effective. Other races get super beefed early and mid game stuff.
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On November 09 2014 05:15 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 05:10 Ovid wrote:On November 09 2014 05:09 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 05:01 Ovid wrote:On November 09 2014 04:55 Tenks wrote:
People are also ignoring the fact that LotV clearly puts more micro possibilities into player's hands. And now they have two of the best players in the world playing the game together so someone can freely just sit and babysit their cyclones with perfect micro which may not play out that way in a real game due to being forced to macro behind all this micro. IMO everyone is way overreacting to some of this omg imba stuff. You're kidding, people will be able to do that and macro all they have to do is click and pull back, the range/speed is enough to make it simple and allow them time to macro. The fact that in the first game 2 cyclones got combined 64 kills on Roaches/Hydra/Lurker/Corrupter ect makes them seem really op. Throwing slow roaches and Ravager shots at them is obviously not the way to deal with them. 10 speedlings and they would have been toast. This wasn't a real game, it was a showmatch with people fucking around with new units. Did you see the protoss game? How do they deal with it? Forcefield, Blink, Phoenix lift, Stasis Wards? And I'm not saying the Cyclone isn't OP right now but all it needs is a small damage nerf and maybe something else (longer lock-on time?). The people crying for it to be removed are ridiculous.
It needs less range, e.g. like 4-5 to initiate and 8-9 at most. Currently it is like 6-12 or 6-13 (with an upgrade that makes it 9-13). Longer lock-on time might be cool as well, so it cannot jump from unit to unit and kill each of them but there was a drawback if you targeted wrong (e.g. a zergling instead of a roach).
The dps is high but that's not such a problem I think. But as long as you cannot touch it unless you build its hardcounters it makes it very boring and limiting to play against.
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On November 09 2014 05:15 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 05:10 Ovid wrote:On November 09 2014 05:09 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 05:01 Ovid wrote:On November 09 2014 04:55 Tenks wrote:
People are also ignoring the fact that LotV clearly puts more micro possibilities into player's hands. And now they have two of the best players in the world playing the game together so someone can freely just sit and babysit their cyclones with perfect micro which may not play out that way in a real game due to being forced to macro behind all this micro. IMO everyone is way overreacting to some of this omg imba stuff. You're kidding, people will be able to do that and macro all they have to do is click and pull back, the range/speed is enough to make it simple and allow them time to macro. The fact that in the first game 2 cyclones got combined 64 kills on Roaches/Hydra/Lurker/Corrupter ect makes them seem really op. Throwing slow roaches and Ravager shots at them is obviously not the way to deal with them. 10 speedlings and they would have been toast. This wasn't a real game, it was a showmatch with people fucking around with new units. Did you see the protoss game? How do they deal with it? Forcefield, Blink, Phoenix lift, Stasis Wards? And I'm not saying the Cyclone isn't OP right now but all it needs is a small damage nerf and maybe something else (longer lock-on time?). The people crying for it to be removed are ridiculous.
Don't get me wrong I love what they're trying it's the whole point of beta to make it more inline with reason but my major complaint with the Cyclone is that it's Pseudo Micro in reality it's clicking on a unit and then moving, not hard not much thought involved part of the reason is the huge range, if it had shorter ranged it would require so much more micro to be strong, it also needs to melt things slower. I'm not a balance designer nor a pro so I won't comment on how they should go with it.
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Well, if it can fight somewhat vs zergling.. I mean not beeing useless vs them.
And then if merc+cyclone can zerglings/roaches etc.
So its a 2v2 battle. It can be fun.
Dont think its realistic at all from blizzard to change the hardcounter in this game.. Look at colossus, its sitll in the game barely touched for crying out loud?
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On November 09 2014 05:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 05:15 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 05:10 Ovid wrote:On November 09 2014 05:09 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 05:01 Ovid wrote:On November 09 2014 04:55 Tenks wrote:
People are also ignoring the fact that LotV clearly puts more micro possibilities into player's hands. And now they have two of the best players in the world playing the game together so someone can freely just sit and babysit their cyclones with perfect micro which may not play out that way in a real game due to being forced to macro behind all this micro. IMO everyone is way overreacting to some of this omg imba stuff. You're kidding, people will be able to do that and macro all they have to do is click and pull back, the range/speed is enough to make it simple and allow them time to macro. The fact that in the first game 2 cyclones got combined 64 kills on Roaches/Hydra/Lurker/Corrupter ect makes them seem really op. Throwing slow roaches and Ravager shots at them is obviously not the way to deal with them. 10 speedlings and they would have been toast. This wasn't a real game, it was a showmatch with people fucking around with new units. Did you see the protoss game? How do they deal with it? Forcefield, Blink, Phoenix lift, Stasis Wards? And I'm not saying the Cyclone isn't OP right now but all it needs is a small damage nerf and maybe something else (longer lock-on time?). The people crying for it to be removed are ridiculous. It needs less range, e.g. like 4-5 to initiate and 8-9 at most. Currently it is like 6-12 or 6-13 (with an upgrade that makes it 9-13). Longer lock-on time might be cool as well, so it cannot jump from unit to unit and kill each of them but there was a drawback if you targeted wrong (e.g. a zergling instead of a roach). The dps is high but that's not such a problem I think. But as long as you cannot touch it unless you build its hardcounters it makes it very boring and limiting to play against.
It starts at 6 range then goes to 9.
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On November 09 2014 05:15 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 05:10 Ovid wrote:On November 09 2014 05:09 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 05:01 Ovid wrote:On November 09 2014 04:55 Tenks wrote:
People are also ignoring the fact that LotV clearly puts more micro possibilities into player's hands. And now they have two of the best players in the world playing the game together so someone can freely just sit and babysit their cyclones with perfect micro which may not play out that way in a real game due to being forced to macro behind all this micro. IMO everyone is way overreacting to some of this omg imba stuff. You're kidding, people will be able to do that and macro all they have to do is click and pull back, the range/speed is enough to make it simple and allow them time to macro. The fact that in the first game 2 cyclones got combined 64 kills on Roaches/Hydra/Lurker/Corrupter ect makes them seem really op. Throwing slow roaches and Ravager shots at them is obviously not the way to deal with them. 10 speedlings and they would have been toast. This wasn't a real game, it was a showmatch with people fucking around with new units. Did you see the protoss game? How do they deal with it? Forcefield, Blink, Phoenix lift, Stasis Wards? And I'm not saying the Cyclone isn't OP right now but all it needs is a small damage nerf and maybe something else (longer lock-on time?). The people crying for it to be removed are ridiculous.
From the limited games viewed it appeared like Stargate was almost required in TvP. Toss was having issues shutting down cyclones and tank harass and both of which would be shut down pretty heavily by stalkers and phoenix. I'll be interested to see how it all plays out. Obviously if the Terran opens rax you don't want the gate but it appears like if he goes fact after rax is when the stargate becomes a really strong investment.
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On November 09 2014 05:24 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 05:20 Big J wrote:On November 09 2014 05:15 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 05:10 Ovid wrote:On November 09 2014 05:09 SmileZerg wrote:On November 09 2014 05:01 Ovid wrote:On November 09 2014 04:55 Tenks wrote:
People are also ignoring the fact that LotV clearly puts more micro possibilities into player's hands. And now they have two of the best players in the world playing the game together so someone can freely just sit and babysit their cyclones with perfect micro which may not play out that way in a real game due to being forced to macro behind all this micro. IMO everyone is way overreacting to some of this omg imba stuff. You're kidding, people will be able to do that and macro all they have to do is click and pull back, the range/speed is enough to make it simple and allow them time to macro. The fact that in the first game 2 cyclones got combined 64 kills on Roaches/Hydra/Lurker/Corrupter ect makes them seem really op. Throwing slow roaches and Ravager shots at them is obviously not the way to deal with them. 10 speedlings and they would have been toast. This wasn't a real game, it was a showmatch with people fucking around with new units. Did you see the protoss game? How do they deal with it? Forcefield, Blink, Phoenix lift, Stasis Wards? And I'm not saying the Cyclone isn't OP right now but all it needs is a small damage nerf and maybe something else (longer lock-on time?). The people crying for it to be removed are ridiculous. It needs less range, e.g. like 4-5 to initiate and 8-9 at most. Currently it is like 6-12 or 6-13 (with an upgrade that makes it 9-13). Longer lock-on time might be cool as well, so it cannot jump from unit to unit and kill each of them but there was a drawback if you targeted wrong (e.g. a zergling instead of a roach). The dps is high but that's not such a problem I think. But as long as you cannot touch it unless you build its hardcounters it makes it very boring and limiting to play against. It starts at 6 range then goes to 9.
that's what I meant. but it has like 13leash range, right? so even if you move away from the cyclone, it will keep on attacking you long beyond 6range. So microing against it doesn't work, because even if you try to disengage after you have been locked as target, you are still going to take incredibly amounts of damage.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cTVkbqS.jpg)
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On November 09 2014 05:18 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 23:33 Superbanana wrote:On November 08 2014 23:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 08 2014 23:18 Hider wrote:On November 08 2014 23:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 08 2014 22:54 Hider wrote:
I was mostly refering to the fact that 2 Cyclones shared about 70 kills between them before Terran ended the game by showing Battlecruisers. I do agree with you that the Hellion+Cyclone (theocraftically) seems unstoppable.
Units that can kite infinitely without taking any damage in a typical situation is never gonna work out. The range on the Cyclone is simply way too high vs Roaches. Also, give zerg some new stuff early game if you want to add further options to terran in the early/early midgame. Speedroach, speedling->cyclone?
Cyclone+herc might work well vs roach and speedling. Hellion + Cyclone. I don't know how a Roach/Speedling player can attack into that as long as terran just kites infinitely. Yeah I agree that Hellion + Cyclone looks to be pretty insane... if the Cyclone became slower, had shorter range, or shot less frequently, then that should help a bit. Yeh, so here is still my issue with Blizzard. Coming to the conclusion that Cyclone has too high range combined with too fast movement speed so it creates a bad interaction isn't very difficult. It would take 2 minutes in the unit tester to see that. These guys have like 8+ years of game development experience with Starcraft, so you would think they knew the basic check-list on what to test. So why on earth hasn't anyone at Blizzard tweaked those numbers before they released it into alpha? To me this just indicates that they are making the same errors as they have done previously by not focussing enough on making the various unit interactions fun. As far as I remember, these sort of teaser releases are just to show potential extremes and build hype more than anything else, and they care very little about realistic balance this early. Remember the shredder? They have plenty of time to balance/ buff/ nerf/ remove things. There's no doubt in my mind that the cyclone will be modified. Indeed! And i do like the direction they are going with unit design. BUT there is a crucial mistake they absolutely must fix. Terran is getting early and mid-game buffs, zerg mid-late game buffs and protoss... early game nerfs and a strange robo unit. They should think again about some stuff XD, its not just about tweaking the numbers. Immortal nerfed. Planetary Nexus can't attack air. Forcefields nerfed. Warping in nerfed. Tempest gets super lategame upgrade. Oracle and single new Protoss unit gimmickiness is where we can rest all our hope so far in this Protoss expansion. Warp Prism micro made easier but not really more effective. Other races get super beefed early and mid game stuff.
You forgot that Carriers are ungodly untouchable war machines of death.
EDIT: And the Immortal change is not a straight nerf, either. Hardened Shields are now less useful against a few units but actually do something vs ALL units now.
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On November 09 2014 05:30 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 05:18 Cloak wrote:On November 08 2014 23:33 Superbanana wrote:On November 08 2014 23:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 08 2014 23:18 Hider wrote:On November 08 2014 23:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 08 2014 22:54 Hider wrote:
I was mostly refering to the fact that 2 Cyclones shared about 70 kills between them before Terran ended the game by showing Battlecruisers. I do agree with you that the Hellion+Cyclone (theocraftically) seems unstoppable.
Units that can kite infinitely without taking any damage in a typical situation is never gonna work out. The range on the Cyclone is simply way too high vs Roaches. Also, give zerg some new stuff early game if you want to add further options to terran in the early/early midgame. Speedroach, speedling->cyclone?
Cyclone+herc might work well vs roach and speedling. Hellion + Cyclone. I don't know how a Roach/Speedling player can attack into that as long as terran just kites infinitely. Yeah I agree that Hellion + Cyclone looks to be pretty insane... if the Cyclone became slower, had shorter range, or shot less frequently, then that should help a bit. Yeh, so here is still my issue with Blizzard. Coming to the conclusion that Cyclone has too high range combined with too fast movement speed so it creates a bad interaction isn't very difficult. It would take 2 minutes in the unit tester to see that. These guys have like 8+ years of game development experience with Starcraft, so you would think they knew the basic check-list on what to test. So why on earth hasn't anyone at Blizzard tweaked those numbers before they released it into alpha? To me this just indicates that they are making the same errors as they have done previously by not focussing enough on making the various unit interactions fun. As far as I remember, these sort of teaser releases are just to show potential extremes and build hype more than anything else, and they care very little about realistic balance this early. Remember the shredder? They have plenty of time to balance/ buff/ nerf/ remove things. There's no doubt in my mind that the cyclone will be modified. Indeed! And i do like the direction they are going with unit design. BUT there is a crucial mistake they absolutely must fix. Terran is getting early and mid-game buffs, zerg mid-late game buffs and protoss... early game nerfs and a strange robo unit. They should think again about some stuff XD, its not just about tweaking the numbers. Immortal nerfed. Planetary Nexus can't attack air. Forcefields nerfed. Warping in nerfed. Tempest gets super lategame upgrade. Oracle and single new Protoss unit gimmickiness is where we can rest all our hope so far in this Protoss expansion. Warp Prism micro made easier but not really more effective. Other races get super beefed early and mid game stuff. You forgot that Carriers are ungodly untouchable war machines of death. EDIT: And the Immortal change is not a straight nerf, either. Hardened Shields are now less useful against a few units but actually do something vs ALL units now.
I'm reluctant on Carrier's future viability, it just sounds great on paper and even if it is broken, it will be the first unit to be reverted to its original form and left to rot. The Immortal verdict is still out but something tells me a "strong passive" changed to a "middling active" might be a nerf, and it's another spell for Protoss which already has to manage so many spellcasters.
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I'm reluctant on Carrier's future viability, it just sounds great on paper and even if it is broken, it will be the first unit to be reverted to its original form and left to rot. The Immortal verdict is still out but something tells me a "strong passive" changed to a "middling active" might be a nerf, and it's another spell for Protoss which already has to manage so many spellcasters.
The Carrier seems ridiculously good now. Why be reluctant about its viability when it has clearly been buffed? I'm on the fence about Immortals too, but I think overall its a decent change. The only thing that concerns me is that in the changes video, clearly all 4 of those Immortals were going to die. Against what, 6 tanks? If that's true, that's horrible, but I'm willing to wait and see. And Protoss isn't the only race to get new abilities. Herc and Ravager are activated abilities too.
Protoss is already referred to as an a-move race, and while that reputation isn't really deserved, it would be wrong to pretend that another spellcaster is a burden.
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On November 09 2014 06:06 CoraBlue wrote:Show nested quote +I'm reluctant on Carrier's future viability, it just sounds great on paper and even if it is broken, it will be the first unit to be reverted to its original form and left to rot. The Immortal verdict is still out but something tells me a "strong passive" changed to a "middling active" might be a nerf, and it's another spell for Protoss which already has to manage so many spellcasters. The Carrier seems ridiculously good now. Why be reluctant about its viability when it has clearly been buffed? I'm on the fence about Immortals too, but I think overall its a decent change. The only thing that concerns me is that in the changes video, clearly all 4 of those Immortals were going to die. Against what, 6 tanks? If that's true, that's horrible, but I'm willing to wait and see. And Protoss isn't the only race to get new abilities. Herc and Ravager are activated abilities too. Protoss is already referred to as an a-move race, and while that reputation isn't really deserved, it would be wrong to pretend that another spellcaster is a burden.
4 Immortals walking up a ramp into 6 sieged tanks sounds like they should die .... The Immortal being the "no tanks for you" unit in TvP was always terrible.
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EPT
