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On November 09 2014 06:10 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 06:06 CoraBlue wrote:I'm reluctant on Carrier's future viability, it just sounds great on paper and even if it is broken, it will be the first unit to be reverted to its original form and left to rot. The Immortal verdict is still out but something tells me a "strong passive" changed to a "middling active" might be a nerf, and it's another spell for Protoss which already has to manage so many spellcasters. The Carrier seems ridiculously good now. Why be reluctant about its viability when it has clearly been buffed? I'm on the fence about Immortals too, but I think overall its a decent change. The only thing that concerns me is that in the changes video, clearly all 4 of those Immortals were going to die. Against what, 6 tanks? If that's true, that's horrible, but I'm willing to wait and see. And Protoss isn't the only race to get new abilities. Herc and Ravager are activated abilities too. Protoss is already referred to as an a-move race, and while that reputation isn't really deserved, it would be wrong to pretend that another spellcaster is a burden. 4 Immortals walking up a ramp into 6 sieged tanks sounds like they should die .... The Immortal being the "no tanks for you" unit in TvP was always terrible.
I think that's debatable, but like I said, I'm open to the change.
900/700 of tanks versus 1000/400 of the unit that's supposed to be a counter? Protoss siege range needs an upgrade. Tanks just get it. So while I see what you're saying, we might find out that Protoss doesn't have an effective counter to tanks that can be medivac'd around WAY outside of Immortal range at that stage of the game.
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I think cyclones will mostly be fine if Lockon is changed to require an armory instead of just a tech lab.
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On November 09 2014 06:17 CoraBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 06:10 Tenks wrote:On November 09 2014 06:06 CoraBlue wrote:I'm reluctant on Carrier's future viability, it just sounds great on paper and even if it is broken, it will be the first unit to be reverted to its original form and left to rot. The Immortal verdict is still out but something tells me a "strong passive" changed to a "middling active" might be a nerf, and it's another spell for Protoss which already has to manage so many spellcasters. The Carrier seems ridiculously good now. Why be reluctant about its viability when it has clearly been buffed? I'm on the fence about Immortals too, but I think overall its a decent change. The only thing that concerns me is that in the changes video, clearly all 4 of those Immortals were going to die. Against what, 6 tanks? If that's true, that's horrible, but I'm willing to wait and see. And Protoss isn't the only race to get new abilities. Herc and Ravager are activated abilities too. Protoss is already referred to as an a-move race, and while that reputation isn't really deserved, it would be wrong to pretend that another spellcaster is a burden. 4 Immortals walking up a ramp into 6 sieged tanks sounds like they should die .... The Immortal being the "no tanks for you" unit in TvP was always terrible. I think that's debatable, but like I said, I'm open to the change. 900/700 of tanks versus 1000/400 of the unit that's supposed to be a counter? Protoss siege range needs an upgrade. Tanks just get it. So while I see what you're saying, we might find out that Protoss doesn't have an effective counter to tanks that can be medivac'd around WAY outside of Immortal range at that stage of the game.
Hmm.
The video in the "protoss video" i think its 5-6 immortals vs 3-4 tanks?
The immortals have 3left after that fight. He even says "immortal are now counters and not hardcounters"
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On November 09 2014 05:18 Tenks wrote:
I think a cannon at the ramp would do wonders as well against the unit
I wouldn't be shocked if they made it so the unit can't hit air though
I feel like it would be better if this unit were redesigned for mainly antiair.
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On November 09 2014 06:22 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 06:17 CoraBlue wrote:On November 09 2014 06:10 Tenks wrote:On November 09 2014 06:06 CoraBlue wrote:I'm reluctant on Carrier's future viability, it just sounds great on paper and even if it is broken, it will be the first unit to be reverted to its original form and left to rot. The Immortal verdict is still out but something tells me a "strong passive" changed to a "middling active" might be a nerf, and it's another spell for Protoss which already has to manage so many spellcasters. The Carrier seems ridiculously good now. Why be reluctant about its viability when it has clearly been buffed? I'm on the fence about Immortals too, but I think overall its a decent change. The only thing that concerns me is that in the changes video, clearly all 4 of those Immortals were going to die. Against what, 6 tanks? If that's true, that's horrible, but I'm willing to wait and see. And Protoss isn't the only race to get new abilities. Herc and Ravager are activated abilities too. Protoss is already referred to as an a-move race, and while that reputation isn't really deserved, it would be wrong to pretend that another spellcaster is a burden. 4 Immortals walking up a ramp into 6 sieged tanks sounds like they should die .... The Immortal being the "no tanks for you" unit in TvP was always terrible. I think that's debatable, but like I said, I'm open to the change. 900/700 of tanks versus 1000/400 of the unit that's supposed to be a counter? Protoss siege range needs an upgrade. Tanks just get it. So while I see what you're saying, we might find out that Protoss doesn't have an effective counter to tanks that can be medivac'd around WAY outside of Immortal range at that stage of the game. Hmm. The video in the "protoss video" i think its 5-6 immortals vs 3-4 tanks? The immortals have 3left after that fight. He even says "immortal are now counters and not hardcounters"
No, you've got it backwards.
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On November 09 2014 06:24 Jevity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 05:18 Tenks wrote:
I think a cannon at the ramp would do wonders as well against the unit
I wouldn't be shocked if they made it so the unit can't hit air though I feel like it would be better if this unit were redesigned for mainly antiair.
So a goliath riding a vulture?
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On November 09 2014 04:19 Espers wrote:
why would I ever harass with this Swarm Host instead of using the more versatile Mutalisk? seems like such an overlap.
Mutas need a spire. Depending on your game plan (and your enemy's tech path), you don't wanna make a spire just to build a harrass unit
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On November 09 2014 06:26 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 06:24 Jevity wrote:On November 09 2014 05:18 Tenks wrote:
I think a cannon at the ramp would do wonders as well against the unit
I wouldn't be shocked if they made it so the unit can't hit air though I feel like it would be better if this unit were redesigned for mainly antiair. So a goliath riding a vulture?
I'd be fine with this. Gives mech a mobile anti-armor anti-air option without having to rely on Vikings or a lot of Thors. It would need to be nerfed vs ground though.
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I wonder if cannon rush is still viable though. Will cheeses (2rax/"12pool") be effective now?
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On November 09 2014 07:00 MrMotionPicture wrote:
I wonder if cannon rush is still viable though. Will cheeses (2rax/"12pool") be effective now?
I think 2rax is nerfed a bit because you have to make your depot on 12 while immediately sending out 2 workers to make raxes. I don't know if the timing is there.
I don't see how 12pool would work. You'd be very larvae limited I'd imagine to be able to make enough lings to justify the rush.
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On November 09 2014 06:40 Leviance wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 04:19 Espers wrote:
why would I ever harass with this Swarm Host instead of using the more versatile Mutalisk? seems like such an overlap. Mutas need a spire. Depending on your game plan (and your enemy's tech path), you don't wanna make a spire just to build a harrass unit
You usually need a spire anyways. With all the mobility LotV ramps upons HotS mobility buffs it sounds like you are going to require a spire more than ever.
And the SH requires an upgrade that costs 100/100 to 200/200. So regardless of your gameplan, going SHs and going Mutas should cost you the same and with proper planing you will have the spire at any timing you think about harass units.
On November 09 2014 07:33 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 07:00 MrMotionPicture wrote:
I wonder if cannon rush is still viable though. Will cheeses (2rax/"12pool") be effective now? I think 2rax is nerfed a bit because you have to make your depot on 12 while immediately sending out 2 workers to make raxes. I don't know if the timing is there. I don't see how 12pool would work. You'd be very larvae limited I'd imagine to be able to make enough lings to justify the rush.
12gas/12pool ling/bling allin 
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On November 09 2014 06:17 CoraBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 06:10 Tenks wrote:On November 09 2014 06:06 CoraBlue wrote:I'm reluctant on Carrier's future viability, it just sounds great on paper and even if it is broken, it will be the first unit to be reverted to its original form and left to rot. The Immortal verdict is still out but something tells me a "strong passive" changed to a "middling active" might be a nerf, and it's another spell for Protoss which already has to manage so many spellcasters. The Carrier seems ridiculously good now. Why be reluctant about its viability when it has clearly been buffed? I'm on the fence about Immortals too, but I think overall its a decent change. The only thing that concerns me is that in the changes video, clearly all 4 of those Immortals were going to die. Against what, 6 tanks? If that's true, that's horrible, but I'm willing to wait and see. And Protoss isn't the only race to get new abilities. Herc and Ravager are activated abilities too. Protoss is already referred to as an a-move race, and while that reputation isn't really deserved, it would be wrong to pretend that another spellcaster is a burden. 4 Immortals walking up a ramp into 6 sieged tanks sounds like they should die .... The Immortal being the "no tanks for you" unit in TvP was always terrible. I think that's debatable, but like I said, I'm open to the change. 900/700 of tanks versus 1000/400 of the unit that's supposed to be a counter? Protoss siege range needs an upgrade. Tanks just get it. So while I see what you're saying, we might find out that Protoss doesn't have an effective counter to tanks that can be medivac'd around WAY outside of Immortal range at that stage of the game.
I said it before but I think the way, at least in this build of LotV, for TvP is open Oracle every game. If the Terran opens Rax into Fact you need to prepare for either cyclones, tanks w/ medivacs or banshee. A great counter to all these? Phoenix. The Phoenix can pick up the cyclone and stalkers (or more phoenix) can kill it. A medivac can't live forever against phoenix and of course banshees get disintegrated. Plus Hercs will die to the opener as well. At least in the games with Mc/Hyun and Polt/Soo that seemed to be the way to counter what they were doing.
And I've always despised super hard counters in SC2 and the Immortal was completely suffocating innovation in Terran gameplay because tanks simply could not be used reliably outside of early timings
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This is all theorycrafting by me and might not be the case but my impressions so far were:
Cyclones are incredibly powerful early on, having the unapgraded range be shorter might solve it.
Hercs seem pretty good as well, could be a little overpowered against banelings.
Tank drops are ridiculous in their current state, a tech lab upgrade to allow medivacs to do it might help tone it down a bit.
New protoss unit could have reaver like harass potential combined with new prism.
Oracle opening is safer than ever with stasis traps.
Ravager pushes will force terrans into cyclones since SCVs repairing is not an option against them.
Lurkers are looking sick against bio and hercs, but our Cyclone overlords won't let them see much light as it is.
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In ZvT it seems like zerglings would counter cyclones easy but in PvT I don't see a way to balance it other than increasing the cooldown of the lock ability. This unit looks like it will be changed a lot during beta and alpha !
Or only get maps with small ramps for both main and natural but that would impact other matchups too
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Their showmatch ad ...
I know I wasn't the only person walking away from that saying
"I hope this is all radically different after beta"
and not
"I'm so excited for the new units in LotV"
[Honestly, imagine if you just read the unit descriptions and not seen them in actual play. Now compare that to how you felt after MC/HyuN]
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Who won the showmatch?
Are there VODS of the finals?
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On November 09 2014 15:41 Highways wrote:
Who won the showmatch?
Are there VODS of the finals?
MC and HyuN won 3-0 easily.
+ Show Spoiler +
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How can I watch the matches with Zest?
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^ the other 2 matches were bo1. the one with JD and zest is on page, like 16 or 17 of this thread, but it has a vietnamese caster. you can still hear the orig sound tho.
the other bo1 with stardust and jjakji was on the wcs youtube channel under "exhibition". that's it, unfortunately.
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EPT
