On September 26 2014 01:22 Invasion-eSport wrote: As we said earlier we are a brand new team on the pro scene, as we can see there is a lot of question about our funding which we find it interesting people are more preoccupied by our funding than our project in the esport. So due to the high demand i'm going to answer (if there is more questions we will be happy to talk about it) we are currently and for the past 4 months funded by a family office. You are going to ask us what is their interest in investing in esport, there is first of all the taxes reason and there is also the fact that they found compatible one of the brand they are managing with esport. The team is created in 2 division one is the community made to have fun to meet nice people, the second part is the pro section where only pros are recruited. After long negotiations, we have reached an agreement to go to the next level and got the funds to be able to hire high quality players. We are also in talking to be able to make them come in Europe. Our structure is based as an organisation with 1 president and 5 board members. Those people take all the decisions concerning the pro roaster, recruitment, budget and sponsors. We are now 12 people working for this organisation (7 players and 5 staffs). The board and the staff is working for now 4 months (holidays were there so during summer not much work was done). Our designers are working on the logo, the new website, clothes, while others are taking care of the players (looking for their needs, tournaments, booking flights, accommodation, gears, etc) and one is responsible to write future articles and is responsible of the communication of the team. We opened a have a facebook page https://www.facebook.com/invasionesport and a twitter https://twitter.com/InvEsport.
Well, given the current context I guess tax dodging makes sense, sadly. I wish we knew more about that family office though, because that's not a very transparent kind of sponsor. Also, if you followed what happened to quite a few teams and players in the foreign scene in the last year or so, I think you have to understand why everyone is concerned with how you're funded. I mean, the major foreign teams right now are all backed up with serious, strong and non-shady sponsors and management (Liquid, Axiom, Acer come to mind); all the teams funded by some kind of personal money all disappeared.
On September 26 2014 01:39 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
On September 26 2014 01:27 boxerfred wrote: Maybe revise that post and add it to the op? Clears some things up, but not too many. "family funded for tax reasons" - can you explain that a bit further?
tax avoidance? They don't want to pay so much taxes? They are "giving" money "away" so much that their tax % doesn't rise?
Yeah, I believe in France you can benefit from taxes reductions when you donate money to either family members or to some organisations. Not sure how it works precisely though, especially with an eSports organisation.
In the US it would depend on how the organization was registered with the government as a legal entity, can't be too far off in France as well. TB for example technically, all players for Axiom are contractors, rather than direct employees. This affords Axiom a certain amount of leeway with their responsibilities towards the players and obligations to them at least under US law. This seems slightly more under the table than that though.
It could be that it's a non-profit sports organization, legally.
On September 26 2014 01:22 Invasion-eSport wrote: As we said earlier we are a brand new team on the pro scene, as we can see there is a lot of question about our funding which we find it interesting people are more preoccupied by our funding than our project in the esport. So due to the high demand i'm going to answer (if there is more questions we will be happy to talk about it) we are currently and for the past 4 months funded by a family office. You are going to ask us what is their interest in investing in esport, there is first of all the taxes reason and there is also the fact that they found compatible one of the brand they are managing with esport. The team is created in 2 division one is the community made to have fun to meet nice people, the second part is the pro section where only pros are recruited. After long negotiations, we have reached an agreement to go to the next level and got the funds to be able to hire high quality players. We are also in talking to be able to make them come in Europe. Our structure is based as an organisation with 1 president and 5 board members. Those people take all the decisions concerning the pro roaster, recruitment, budget and sponsors. We are now 12 people working for this organisation (7 players and 5 staffs). The board and the staff is working for now 4 months (holidays were there so during summer not much work was done). Our designers are working on the logo, the new website, clothes, while others are taking care of the players (looking for their needs, tournaments, booking flights, accommodation, gears, etc) and one is responsible to write future articles and is responsible of the communication of the team. We opened a have a facebook page https://www.facebook.com/invasionesport and a twitter https://twitter.com/InvEsport.
The reason people are questioning your source of funding is the large number of scam teams and operations in the scene over the years that have folded owing players and staff large amounts of money that those people cannot afford to recoup via legal action. It isn't a slight against you at all, the fanbase simply wants you to bolster their confidence that you'll honour your promises and support TOP the way he deserves to be supported.
I can't really blame them, I mean, look at the list of organisations within esports in the last 4 or 5 years ALONE that have been caught cheating their players/staff: (And I know I'm missing a few more to boot, not to mention sponsors welching on deals with reputable teams, as was accused of LG with Team IM, TTeSports with Prime, and Intel with SlayerS)
Ministry Of Win ESGN eSahara (Absolute Legends) Werra Eclypsia Team ReIGN Team MJ Own3d (Still owes Destiny money) MYM MTw Virus Gaming Team Love Your Girlfriend Alloy eSports (And before that, they were KSG) NASL Team Apex 4Kings (They still owe DeMusliM a significant amount of money) Quantic Gaming (Twice!) AZUBU (Still operating but known to be funded by the VERY dubiously legitimate Sapinda investment group) vVv Gaming (Didn't cheat anyone to my knowledge, but gave so little support to their SC2 team that they left en-masse resulting in the closure of that division)
I think the community have earned the right to a little skepticism regards vague promises of funding from un-named or previously unknown enterprises.
That said, I don't see that as a reason to judge you before you've been given your fair chance - I just agree with the community's request for clarity regards your funding. Hopefully we're all making something of nothing, but it's better to be safe and ask the question first.
On September 26 2014 01:22 Invasion-eSport wrote: As we said earlier we are a brand new team on the pro scene, as we can see there is a lot of question about our funding which we find it interesting people are more preoccupied by our funding than our project in the esport. So due to the high demand i'm going to answer (if there is more questions we will be happy to talk about it) we are currently and for the past 4 months funded by a family office. You are going to ask us what is their interest in investing in esport, there is first of all the taxes reason and there is also the fact that they found compatible one of the brand they are managing with esport. The team is created in 2 division one is the community made to have fun to meet nice people, the second part is the pro section where only pros are recruited. After long negotiations, we have reached an agreement to go to the next level and got the funds to be able to hire high quality players. We are also in talking to be able to make them come in Europe. Our structure is based as an organisation with 1 president and 5 board members. Those people take all the decisions concerning the pro roaster, recruitment, budget and sponsors. We are now 12 people working for this organisation (7 players and 5 staffs). The board and the staff is working for now 4 months (holidays were there so during summer not much work was done). Our designers are working on the logo, the new website, clothes, while others are taking care of the players (looking for their needs, tournaments, booking flights, accommodation, gears, etc) and one is responsible to write future articles and is responsible of the communication of the team. We opened a have a facebook page https://www.facebook.com/invasionesport and a twitter https://twitter.com/InvEsport.
The reason people are questioning your source of funding is the large number of scam teams and operations in the scene over the years that have folded owing players and staff large amounts of money that those people cannot afford to recoup via legal action. It isn't a slight against you at all, the fanbase simply wants you to bolster their confidence that you'll honour your promises and support TOP the way he deserves to be supported.
I can't really blame them, I mean, look at the list of organisations within esports in the last 4 or 5 years ALONE that have been caught cheating their players/staff: (And I know I'm missing a few more to boot, not to mention sponsors welching on deals with reputable teams, as was accused of LG with Team IM, TTeSports with Prime, and Intel with SlayerS)
Ministry Of Win ESGN eSahara (Absolute Legends) Werra Eclypsia Team ReIGN Team MJ MYM MTw Team Love Your Girlfriend Alloy eSports (And before that, they were KSG) NASL Team Apex 4Kings (They still owe DeMusliM a significant amount of money) Quantic Gaming (Twice!) AZUBU (Still operating but known to be funded by the VERY dubiously legitimate Sapinda investment group) vVv Gaming (Didn't cheat anyone to my knowledge, but gave so little support to their SC2 team that they left en-masse resulting in the closure of that division)
I think the community have earned the right to a little skepticism regards vague promises of funding from un-named or previously unknown enterprises.
That said, I don't see that as a reason to judge you before you've been given your fair chance - I just agree with the community's request for clarity regards your funding. Hopefully we're all making something of nothing, but it's better to be safe and ask the question first.
This is a pretty good post. Is there a liquipedia page with a list and details dedicated to the teams and/or individuals who have done harm to the scene? I'm able to find each one individually...and there's the "teams" portal but I can't find a "Shady Organization"-type page (note: it doesn't have to be named that).
On September 26 2014 01:22 Invasion-eSport wrote: As we said earlier we are a brand new team on the pro scene, as we can see there is a lot of question about our funding which we find it interesting people are more preoccupied by our funding than our project in the esport. So due to the high demand i'm going to answer (if there is more questions we will be happy to talk about it) we are currently and for the past 4 months funded by a family office. You are going to ask us what is their interest in investing in esport, there is first of all the taxes reason and there is also the fact that they found compatible one of the brand they are managing with esport. The team is created in 2 division one is the community made to have fun to meet nice people, the second part is the pro section where only pros are recruited. After long negotiations, we have reached an agreement to go to the next level and got the funds to be able to hire high quality players. We are also in talking to be able to make them come in Europe. Our structure is based as an organisation with 1 president and 5 board members. Those people take all the decisions concerning the pro roaster, recruitment, budget and sponsors. We are now 12 people working for this organisation (7 players and 5 staffs). The board and the staff is working for now 4 months (holidays were there so during summer not much work was done). Our designers are working on the logo, the new website, clothes, while others are taking care of the players (looking for their needs, tournaments, booking flights, accommodation, gears, etc) and one is responsible to write future articles and is responsible of the communication of the team. We opened a have a facebook page https://www.facebook.com/invasionesport and a twitter https://twitter.com/InvEsport.
The reason people are questioning your source of funding is the large number of scam teams and operations in the scene over the years that have folded owing players and staff large amounts of money that those people cannot afford to recoup via legal action. It isn't a slight against you at all, the fanbase simply wants you to bolster their confidence that you'll honour your promises and support TOP the way he deserves to be supported.
I can't really blame them, I mean, look at the list of organisations within esports in the last 4 or 5 years ALONE that have been caught cheating their players/staff: (And I know I'm missing a few more to boot, not to mention sponsors welching on deals with reputable teams, as was accused of LG with Team IM, TTeSports with Prime, and Intel with SlayerS)
Ministry Of Win ESGN eSahara (Absolute Legends) Werra Eclypsia Team ReIGN Team MJ MYM MTw Team Love Your Girlfriend Alloy eSports (And before that, they were KSG) NASL Team Apex 4Kings (They still owe DeMusliM a significant amount of money) Quantic Gaming (Twice!) AZUBU (Still operating but known to be funded by the VERY dubiously legitimate Sapinda investment group) vVv Gaming (Didn't cheat anyone to my knowledge, but gave so little support to their SC2 team that they left en-masse resulting in the closure of that division)
I think the community have earned the right to a little skepticism regards vague promises of funding from un-named or previously unknown enterprises.
That said, I don't see that as a reason to judge you before you've been given your fair chance - I just agree with the community's request for clarity regards your funding. Hopefully we're all making something of nothing, but it's better to be safe and ask the question first.
This is a pretty good post. Is there a liquipedia page with a list and details dedicated to the teams and/or individuals who have done harm to the scene? I'm able to find each one individually...and there's the "teams" portal but I can't find a "Shady Organization"-type page (note: it doesn't have to be named that).
That said, I'm glad to see TOP back in action.
To be fair, NASL, Team MJ, and ReIGN weren't "shady" as such, they were just either not profitable enough to recoup investor funding in the case of NASL, never got off the ground but with the best of intentions in the case of Team MJ, and were attached to a sinking ship in the case of ReIGN.
Same net result - players and staff were out of pocket having done nothing wrong, but I won't ascribe malicious intent to them, they seemed to want to do the right thing, and they never lied to their staff or players, didn't run themselves into debt hoping for a miracle, just eventually had to say "I'm sorry, we can't afford to go on".
You could level the same accusations at ESL and some other organisations for their early prize money issues for example, but at the end of the day, everyone now knows ESL do good for the scene and have gotten past those problems. The difference is only that ESL is still around and was strong enough to survive long enough to fix those problems, whereas those other organisations were forced to fold.
On September 26 2014 01:22 Invasion-eSport wrote: As we said earlier we are a brand new team on the pro scene, as we can see there is a lot of question about our funding which we find it interesting people are more preoccupied by our funding than our project in the esport. So due to the high demand i'm going to answer (if there is more questions we will be happy to talk about it) we are currently and for the past 4 months funded by a family office. You are going to ask us what is their interest in investing in esport, there is first of all the taxes reason and there is also the fact that they found compatible one of the brand they are managing with esport. The team is created in 2 division one is the community made to have fun to meet nice people, the second part is the pro section where only pros are recruited. After long negotiations, we have reached an agreement to go to the next level and got the funds to be able to hire high quality players. We are also in talking to be able to make them come in Europe. Our structure is based as an organisation with 1 president and 5 board members. Those people take all the decisions concerning the pro roaster, recruitment, budget and sponsors. We are now 12 people working for this organisation (7 players and 5 staffs). The board and the staff is working for now 4 months (holidays were there so during summer not much work was done). Our designers are working on the logo, the new website, clothes, while others are taking care of the players (looking for their needs, tournaments, booking flights, accommodation, gears, etc) and one is responsible to write future articles and is responsible of the communication of the team. We opened a have a facebook page https://www.facebook.com/invasionesport and a twitter https://twitter.com/InvEsport.
Well, given the current context I guess tax dodging makes sense, sadly. I wish we knew more about that family office though, because that's not a very transparent kind of sponsor. Also, if you followed what happened to quite a few teams and players in the foreign scene in the last year or so, I think you have to understand why everyone is concerned with how you're funded. I mean, the major foreign teams right now are all backed up with serious, strong and non-shady sponsors and management (Liquid, Axiom, Acer come to mind); all the teams funded by some kind of personal money all disappeared.
On September 26 2014 01:39 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
On September 26 2014 01:27 boxerfred wrote: Maybe revise that post and add it to the op? Clears some things up, but not too many. "family funded for tax reasons" - can you explain that a bit further?
tax avoidance? They don't want to pay so much taxes? They are "giving" money "away" so much that their tax % doesn't rise?
Yeah, I believe in France you can benefit from taxes reductions when you donate money to either family members or to some organisations. Not sure how it works precisely though, especially with an eSports organisation.
In the US it would depend on how the organization was registered with the government as a legal entity, can't be too far off in France as well. TB for example technically, all players for Axiom are contractors, rather than direct employees. This affords Axiom a certain amount of leeway with their responsibilities towards the players and obligations to them at least under US law. This seems slightly more under the table than that though.
It could be that it's a non-profit sports organization, legally.
That would be a new approach, I can't even think of how that would work.
I hope that top koreans will join some more safe (and famous) team. I mean, we all know who are TAiLS, Noblesse and TOP but they are not that huge koreans that everybody talks about everyday.
On September 26 2014 01:22 Invasion-eSport wrote: As we said earlier we are a brand new team on the pro scene, as we can see there is a lot of question about our funding which we find it interesting people are more preoccupied by our funding than our project in the esport. So due to the high demand i'm going to answer (if there is more questions we will be happy to talk about it) we are currently and for the past 4 months funded by a family office. You are going to ask us what is their interest in investing in esport, there is first of all the taxes reason and there is also the fact that they found compatible one of the brand they are managing with esport. The team is created in 2 division one is the community made to have fun to meet nice people, the second part is the pro section where only pros are recruited. After long negotiations, we have reached an agreement to go to the next level and got the funds to be able to hire high quality players. We are also in talking to be able to make them come in Europe. Our structure is based as an organisation with 1 president and 5 board members. Those people take all the decisions concerning the pro roaster, recruitment, budget and sponsors. We are now 12 people working for this organisation (7 players and 5 staffs). The board and the staff is working for now 4 months (holidays were there so during summer not much work was done). Our designers are working on the logo, the new website, clothes, while others are taking care of the players (looking for their needs, tournaments, booking flights, accommodation, gears, etc) and one is responsible to write future articles and is responsible of the communication of the team. We opened a have a facebook page https://www.facebook.com/invasionesport and a twitter https://twitter.com/InvEsport.
yeah, that doesn't looks shady at all. The reduce taxes don't make any sense, since the saving will allways be less than what you invested in the first place. You'll have to understand that it's basically the first time most of people heard about your team, and the shady sponsor-wants-to-be-anonymous just won't work anymore in the community. The family business has a brand compatible with esport? Ok, what brand is it ? No brand will sponsor anything without their name appearing somewhere, that's advertising 101. unless you answer clearly, you'll leave a terrible, terrible first impression
On September 26 2014 03:45 Cluster__ wrote: Not sure if anyone noticed this but regarding Invasion-- they're streaming now http://www.twitch.tv/invasionesport
They should stream a picture of their bank account balance
On September 26 2014 01:22 Invasion-eSport wrote: As we said earlier we are a brand new team on the pro scene, as we can see there is a lot of question about our funding which we find it interesting people are more preoccupied by our funding than our project in the esport. So due to the high demand i'm going to answer (if there is more questions we will be happy to talk about it) we are currently and for the past 4 months funded by a family office. You are going to ask us what is their interest in investing in esport, there is first of all the taxes reason and there is also the fact that they found compatible one of the brand they are managing with esport. The team is created in 2 division one is the community made to have fun to meet nice people, the second part is the pro section where only pros are recruited. After long negotiations, we have reached an agreement to go to the next level and got the funds to be able to hire high quality players. We are also in talking to be able to make them come in Europe. Our structure is based as an organisation with 1 president and 5 board members. Those people take all the decisions concerning the pro roaster, recruitment, budget and sponsors. We are now 12 people working for this organisation (7 players and 5 staffs). The board and the staff is working for now 4 months (holidays were there so during summer not much work was done). Our designers are working on the logo, the new website, clothes, while others are taking care of the players (looking for their needs, tournaments, booking flights, accommodation, gears, etc) and one is responsible to write future articles and is responsible of the communication of the team. We opened a have a facebook page https://www.facebook.com/invasionesport and a twitter https://twitter.com/InvEsport.
Maybe revise that post and add it to the op? Clears some things up, but not too many. "family funded for tax reasons" - can you explain that a bit further?
Azubu style tax dodging? or wait, was that money laundering they were suspected of?
Ya, that line is pretty sketchy since "family funded" has always been code for "no real backers" in the past.
Anyways, given how little Top / Noblelesse have been playing lately I don't think this is all that much risk for them anyways (not sure how active Tails has been / how long he's been off MVP).
On September 26 2014 01:22 Invasion-eSport wrote: As we said earlier we are a brand new team on the pro scene, as we can see there is a lot of question about our funding which we find it interesting people are more preoccupied by our funding than our project in the esport. So due to the high demand i'm going to answer (if there is more questions we will be happy to talk about it) we are currently and for the past 4 months funded by a family office. You are going to ask us what is their interest in investing in esport, there is first of all the taxes reason and there is also the fact that they found compatible one of the brand they are managing with esport. The team is created in 2 division one is the community made to have fun to meet nice people, the second part is the pro section where only pros are recruited. After long negotiations, we have reached an agreement to go to the next level and got the funds to be able to hire high quality players. We are also in talking to be able to make them come in Europe. Our structure is based as an organisation with 1 president and 5 board members. Those people take all the decisions concerning the pro roaster, recruitment, budget and sponsors. We are now 12 people working for this organisation (7 players and 5 staffs). The board and the staff is working for now 4 months (holidays were there so during summer not much work was done). Our designers are working on the logo, the new website, clothes, while others are taking care of the players (looking for their needs, tournaments, booking flights, accommodation, gears, etc) and one is responsible to write future articles and is responsible of the communication of the team. We opened a have a facebook page https://www.facebook.com/invasionesport and a twitter https://twitter.com/InvEsport.
The reason people are questioning your source of funding is the large number of scam teams and operations in the scene over the years that have folded owing players and staff large amounts of money that those people cannot afford to recoup via legal action. It isn't a slight against you at all, the fanbase simply wants you to bolster their confidence that you'll honour your promises and support TOP the way he deserves to be supported.
I can't really blame them, I mean, look at the list of organisations within esports in the last 4 or 5 years ALONE that have been caught cheating their players/staff: (And I know I'm missing a few more to boot, not to mention sponsors welching on deals with reputable teams, as was accused of LG with Team IM, TTeSports with Prime, and Intel with SlayerS)
Ministry Of Win ESGN eSahara (Absolute Legends) Werra Eclypsia Team ReIGN Team MJ Own3d (Still owes Destiny money) MYM MTw Team Love Your Girlfriend Alloy eSports (And before that, they were KSG) NASL Team Apex 4Kings (They still owe DeMusliM a significant amount of money) Quantic Gaming (Twice!) AZUBU (Still operating but known to be funded by the VERY dubiously legitimate Sapinda investment group) vVv Gaming (Didn't cheat anyone to my knowledge, but gave so little support to their SC2 team that they left en-masse resulting in the closure of that division)
I think the community have earned the right to a little skepticism regards vague promises of funding from un-named or previously unknown enterprises.
That said, I don't see that as a reason to judge you before you've been given your fair chance - I just agree with the community's request for clarity regards your funding. Hopefully we're all making something of nothing, but it's better to be safe and ask the question first.
Don't forget Virus Gaming. Maybe the first scam team? They still owe thousands of euros to Naama.
On September 26 2014 01:22 Invasion-eSport wrote: As we said earlier we are a brand new team on the pro scene, as we can see there is a lot of question about our funding which we find it interesting people are more preoccupied by our funding than our project in the esport. So due to the high demand i'm going to answer (if there is more questions we will be happy to talk about it) we are currently and for the past 4 months funded by a family office. You are going to ask us what is their interest in investing in esport, there is first of all the taxes reason and there is also the fact that they found compatible one of the brand they are managing with esport. The team is created in 2 division one is the community made to have fun to meet nice people, the second part is the pro section where only pros are recruited. After long negotiations, we have reached an agreement to go to the next level and got the funds to be able to hire high quality players. We are also in talking to be able to make them come in Europe. Our structure is based as an organisation with 1 president and 5 board members. Those people take all the decisions concerning the pro roaster, recruitment, budget and sponsors. We are now 12 people working for this organisation (7 players and 5 staffs). The board and the staff is working for now 4 months (holidays were there so during summer not much work was done). Our designers are working on the logo, the new website, clothes, while others are taking care of the players (looking for their needs, tournaments, booking flights, accommodation, gears, etc) and one is responsible to write future articles and is responsible of the communication of the team. We opened a have a facebook page https://www.facebook.com/invasionesport and a twitter https://twitter.com/InvEsport.
The reason people are questioning your source of funding is the large number of scam teams and operations in the scene over the years that have folded owing players and staff large amounts of money that those people cannot afford to recoup via legal action. It isn't a slight against you at all, the fanbase simply wants you to bolster their confidence that you'll honour your promises and support TOP the way he deserves to be supported.
I can't really blame them, I mean, look at the list of organisations within esports in the last 4 or 5 years ALONE that have been caught cheating their players/staff: (And I know I'm missing a few more to boot, not to mention sponsors welching on deals with reputable teams, as was accused of LG with Team IM, TTeSports with Prime, and Intel with SlayerS)
Ministry Of Win ESGN eSahara (Absolute Legends) Werra Eclypsia Team ReIGN Team MJ Own3d (Still owes Destiny money) MYM MTw Team Love Your Girlfriend Alloy eSports (And before that, they were KSG) NASL Team Apex 4Kings (They still owe DeMusliM a significant amount of money) Quantic Gaming (Twice!) AZUBU (Still operating but known to be funded by the VERY dubiously legitimate Sapinda investment group) vVv Gaming (Didn't cheat anyone to my knowledge, but gave so little support to their SC2 team that they left en-masse resulting in the closure of that division)
I think the community have earned the right to a little skepticism regards vague promises of funding from un-named or previously unknown enterprises.
That said, I don't see that as a reason to judge you before you've been given your fair chance - I just agree with the community's request for clarity regards your funding. Hopefully we're all making something of nothing, but it's better to be safe and ask the question first.
Don't forget Virus Gaming. Maybe the first scam team? They still owe thousands of euros to Naama.
Added.
There was also a team that died before it ever got started, run by some guy who got run outta town by people who knew him from the CoD scene. I want to say the name had something to do with Zombies or the undead, but I can't remember it. Any clues?
EPT
WB TOP :D
