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On August 20 2014 22:41 phil.ipp wrote:
its not even worth thinking about for european teams
just look at the money
14000 dollar for WINNING one round - yeah WINNING haha will never happen
50000 dollar for WINNING the playoffs .. yeah unthinkable
come on, flight tickets for the whole team cost more than they could ever make ..
Taeja can make more in a weekend.
there would have to be a huge financial support from KESPA.
and for what? 10-20.000 more viewers? everyone in europe already watches proleague, and in US nobody will watch proleague cause its at 2 AM in the morning doesnt matter who plays, people have to get up in the morning, work, school, you know reality.
Maybe on the west coast of the US, but I watch Proleague when my favorite teams are playing because it starts at 5am here in the East coast of the US. Now i obviously make it a point to get up at this time, but i get ready for work while I watch Proleague. I def think that more ppl would watch if more players they wanted to see were playing. Just look at the viewers for the EG-TL matches. Especially when a foreigner was playing.
It is true that most teams wouldn't want to go because they prefer individual results to team league results due to the fact that you just explained the prize pool.
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On August 20 2014 22:41 phil.ipp wrote:
its not even worth thinking about for european teams
just look at the money
14000 dollar for WINNING one round - yeah WINNING haha will never happen
50000 dollar for WINNING the playoffs .. yeah unthinkable
come on, flight tickets for the whole team cost more than they could ever make ..
Taeja can make more in a weekend.
there would have to be a huge financial support from KESPA.
and for what? 10-20.000 more viewers? everyone in europe already watches proleague, and in US nobody will watch proleague cause its at 2 AM in the morning doesnt matter who plays, people have to get up in the morning, work, school, you know reality.
This is the reason why I watch the VODs on youtube. Kespa could increase viewership by doing they allow restreaming in different languages e.g. French,German ect..
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On August 20 2014 22:28 NarutO wrote:Frankly spoken - this is not what a foreign team is to me. Axiom are Koreans so they are not "foreigners" to me just because they are not playing on a Korean team. While Axiom has a good roster I certainly believe that proleague is the field the 'KOREANS' shine most. They are insanely good at preparing for one match up and one map. 'Foreigners' have trouble to take them down in the weekend-tournament bracket system so it will be even harder in this format. I am not counting out anyone and with due respect I have towards Axiom it still should be allowed to mention that they are not likely going to have a high-finish. This is not meant as offence as I myself am a fan of for example Impact or Ryung but being fan doesn't mean I cannot have another opinion on how Axiom would rate against the KeSPA teams. For example while Axiom has a deep roster as its always mentioned by TB, they did "ONLY" finish 4th in ATC and that wasn't just about other teams having the better star player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Acer_TeamStory_Cup_Season_3/Group_StageThey often edged out 'smaller teams' without big star players in close series, yet they also won convincingly against some of the other teams. While in proleague its not the allkill format through the season, I am saying that the average level or a proleague fielded player is WORLDS above the average ATC player, so people need to think if a 'deep roster' which is always the argument against the allkill format is able to edge out the monsters that are the proleague Koreans.
Axiom would win the ATC if it were Proleague format.
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On August 20 2014 22:41 phil.ipp wrote:
its not even worth thinking about for european teams
just look at the money
14000 dollar for WINNING one round - yeah WINNING haha will never happen
50000 dollar for WINNING the playoffs .. yeah unthinkable
come on, flight tickets for the whole team cost more than they could ever make ..
Taeja can make more in a weekend.
there would have to be a huge financial support from KESPA.
and for what? 10-20.000 more viewers? everyone in europe already watches proleague, and in US nobody will watch proleague cause its at 2 AM in the morning doesnt matter who plays, people have to get up in the morning, work, school, you know reality.
About the Money. True. And think also about the change of WCS Regions. I dont think it will happen despite Axiom and Acer.
About the time? Absolutly wrong. When the IndyCars drive during the evening in the US, they start for me at 3am. And i watch till 6 am. For me the bigger problem is in europe: The SPL starts arround 11 am. You work at that time. You cant watch SPL. You just cant do it.
On August 20 2014 23:12 Crot4le wrote:
Axiom would win the ATC if it were Proleague format.
Maybe you should not watch the situation as a "massive fan", but as a neutral observer. Voting TL and Acer under Axiom in a PL-format ist truly... . Acer has 3 top lvl player, one player who snipes em all and another medium tier player. TL has 4 Top lvl Player and additional good players in its roster.
Dont get me wrong, Axiom would have been better in the last SPL then Prime and togeather with Acer, the winners combination of last GSTL and 3rd of GSTL 2013 R1 will be better then MVP, IM and Prime. Axiom can compete with the lower tier Kespa teams and shouldnt stand behind. Togeather in the old Aliance, they will give a good fight.
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On August 20 2014 22:41 phil.ipp wrote:
its not even worth thinking about for european teams
just look at the money
14000 dollar for WINNING one round - yeah WINNING haha will never happen
50000 dollar for WINNING the playoffs .. yeah unthinkable
come on, flight tickets for the whole team cost more than they could ever make ..
Taeja can make more in a weekend.
there would have to be a huge financial support from KESPA.
and for what? 10-20.000 more viewers? everyone in europe already watches proleague, and in US nobody will watch proleague cause its at 2 AM in the morning doesnt matter who plays, people have to get up in the morning, work, school, you know reality.
While that's a very realistic post, I'm not sure this applies so much to Team Acer (who would gain a lot from advertising much like Samsung Galaxy and the proper KeSPA teams do) and Axiom eSports, who are already based in Korea so competing in Proleague will actually be cheaper for them than flying out to foreign events like Dreamhack and IEM.
I agree, we are unlikely to see the likes of Team Liquid, Evil Geniuses, Fnatic, Millenium etc competing in Proleague any time soon but I do think Team Acer or Axiom may compete - maybe even as a reunion as AxiomAcer.
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On August 20 2014 23:12 Crot4le wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2014 22:28 NarutO wrote:Frankly spoken - this is not what a foreign team is to me. Axiom are Koreans so they are not "foreigners" to me just because they are not playing on a Korean team. While Axiom has a good roster I certainly believe that proleague is the field the 'KOREANS' shine most. They are insanely good at preparing for one match up and one map. 'Foreigners' have trouble to take them down in the weekend-tournament bracket system so it will be even harder in this format. I am not counting out anyone and with due respect I have towards Axiom it still should be allowed to mention that they are not likely going to have a high-finish. This is not meant as offence as I myself am a fan of for example Impact or Ryung but being fan doesn't mean I cannot have another opinion on how Axiom would rate against the KeSPA teams. For example while Axiom has a deep roster as its always mentioned by TB, they did "ONLY" finish 4th in ATC and that wasn't just about other teams having the better star player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Acer_TeamStory_Cup_Season_3/Group_StageThey often edged out 'smaller teams' without big star players in close series, yet they also won convincingly against some of the other teams. While in proleague its not the allkill format through the season, I am saying that the average level or a proleague fielded player is WORLDS above the average ATC player, so people need to think if a 'deep roster' which is always the argument against the allkill format is able to edge out the monsters that are the proleague Koreans. Axiom would win the ATC if it were Proleague format.
I don't know about that, but they have a higher chance compared to an allkill format yes. But its not about ATC, its about proleague and in proleague what looks like a deep lineup is no advantage to Axiom. I dare say that every proleague team can field either better or equal lineups.
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On August 20 2014 23:19 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2014 22:41 phil.ipp wrote:
its not even worth thinking about for european teams
just look at the money
14000 dollar for WINNING one round - yeah WINNING haha will never happen
50000 dollar for WINNING the playoffs .. yeah unthinkable
come on, flight tickets for the whole team cost more than they could ever make ..
Taeja can make more in a weekend.
there would have to be a huge financial support from KESPA.
and for what? 10-20.000 more viewers? everyone in europe already watches proleague, and in US nobody will watch proleague cause its at 2 AM in the morning doesnt matter who plays, people have to get up in the morning, work, school, you know reality. About the Money. True. And think also about the change of WCS Regions. I dont think it will happen despite Axiom and Acer. About the time? Absolutly wrong. When the IndyCars drive during the evening in the US, they start for me at 3am. And i watch till 6 am. For me the bigger problem is in europe: The SPL starts arround 11 am. You work at that time. You cant watch SPL. You just cant do it.
I prefer to not be unhealthy as fuck, so 4am is out of the question =P
About the time, what Phil said is absolutely right for anyone who cares about their well being and their energy levels and want to live a normal/healthy lifestyle. But yeah, like I said earlier, times are impossible for pretty much all regions unless you don't have a normal job.
Maybe if I was 18 and only had to deal with school, but those days are long gone.
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On August 20 2014 23:20 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2014 23:12 Crot4le wrote:On August 20 2014 22:28 NarutO wrote:Frankly spoken - this is not what a foreign team is to me. Axiom are Koreans so they are not "foreigners" to me just because they are not playing on a Korean team. While Axiom has a good roster I certainly believe that proleague is the field the 'KOREANS' shine most. They are insanely good at preparing for one match up and one map. 'Foreigners' have trouble to take them down in the weekend-tournament bracket system so it will be even harder in this format. I am not counting out anyone and with due respect I have towards Axiom it still should be allowed to mention that they are not likely going to have a high-finish. This is not meant as offence as I myself am a fan of for example Impact or Ryung but being fan doesn't mean I cannot have another opinion on how Axiom would rate against the KeSPA teams. For example while Axiom has a deep roster as its always mentioned by TB, they did "ONLY" finish 4th in ATC and that wasn't just about other teams having the better star player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Acer_TeamStory_Cup_Season_3/Group_StageThey often edged out 'smaller teams' without big star players in close series, yet they also won convincingly against some of the other teams. While in proleague its not the allkill format through the season, I am saying that the average level or a proleague fielded player is WORLDS above the average ATC player, so people need to think if a 'deep roster' which is always the argument against the allkill format is able to edge out the monsters that are the proleague Koreans. Axiom would win the ATC if it were Proleague format. I don't know about that, but they have a higher chance compared to an allkill format yes. But its not about ATC, its about proleague and in proleague what looks like a deep lineup is no advantage to Axiom. I dare say that every proleague team can field either better or equal lineups.
Would Axiom win Proleague? No probably not. But they'd definitely be competitive.
Axiom's forte is preparation-based team leagues. CranK is a great coach, he proved this in GSTL. Axiom are one strong zerg player away from having a really strong and well-rounded six player roster. That's a lot of depth. I know TB has mentioned they will need more sponsors before they can afford a sixth player, but regardless I really fancy Axiom's chances to at least finish roughly mid-table in Proleague, and even more so with an extra three players that he was talking about from a team partnership (which let's be honest is most likely to be MMA, INnoVation and Scarlett in an AxiomAcer partnership, unless TB has some teamless Korean mercenaries on his mind but that doesn't seem as likely to me).
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On August 20 2014 23:35 Shinta) wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2014 23:19 Clonester wrote:On August 20 2014 22:41 phil.ipp wrote:
its not even worth thinking about for european teams
just look at the money
14000 dollar for WINNING one round - yeah WINNING haha will never happen
50000 dollar for WINNING the playoffs .. yeah unthinkable
come on, flight tickets for the whole team cost more than they could ever make ..
Taeja can make more in a weekend.
there would have to be a huge financial support from KESPA.
and for what? 10-20.000 more viewers? everyone in europe already watches proleague, and in US nobody will watch proleague cause its at 2 AM in the morning doesnt matter who plays, people have to get up in the morning, work, school, you know reality. About the Money. True. And think also about the change of WCS Regions. I dont think it will happen despite Axiom and Acer. About the time? Absolutly wrong. When the IndyCars drive during the evening in the US, they start for me at 3am. And i watch till 6 am. For me the bigger problem is in europe: The SPL starts arround 11 am. You work at that time. You cant watch SPL. You just cant do it. I prefer to not be unhealthy as fuck, so 4am is out of the question =P About the time, what Phil said is absolutely right for anyone who cares about their well being and their energy levels and want to live a normal/healthy lifestyle. But yeah, like I said earlier, times are impossible for pretty much all regions unless you don't have a normal job. Maybe if I was 18 and only had to deal with school, but those days are long gone.
You can always watch the VODs you know. They're posted for free in 1080p quality on their YouTube channel.
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On August 20 2014 23:43 Crot4le wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2014 23:35 Shinta) wrote:On August 20 2014 23:19 Clonester wrote:On August 20 2014 22:41 phil.ipp wrote:
its not even worth thinking about for european teams
just look at the money
14000 dollar for WINNING one round - yeah WINNING haha will never happen
50000 dollar for WINNING the playoffs .. yeah unthinkable
come on, flight tickets for the whole team cost more than they could ever make ..
Taeja can make more in a weekend.
there would have to be a huge financial support from KESPA.
and for what? 10-20.000 more viewers? everyone in europe already watches proleague, and in US nobody will watch proleague cause its at 2 AM in the morning doesnt matter who plays, people have to get up in the morning, work, school, you know reality. About the Money. True. And think also about the change of WCS Regions. I dont think it will happen despite Axiom and Acer. About the time? Absolutly wrong. When the IndyCars drive during the evening in the US, they start for me at 3am. And i watch till 6 am. For me the bigger problem is in europe: The SPL starts arround 11 am. You work at that time. You cant watch SPL. You just cant do it. I prefer to not be unhealthy as fuck, so 4am is out of the question =P About the time, what Phil said is absolutely right for anyone who cares about their well being and their energy levels and want to live a normal/healthy lifestyle. But yeah, like I said earlier, times are impossible for pretty much all regions unless you don't have a normal job. Maybe if I was 18 and only had to deal with school, but those days are long gone. You can always watch the VODs you know. They're posted for free in 1080p quality on their YouTube channel.
It's not the same. For me following the games live is paramount, I never watch VOD's of games I didn't catch unless there's something specific I want to see. Even F5'ing the LR with my phone has more magic.
But I'm pretty lucky, since SPL usually started right at the end of my work day. Earlier I used to work shifts, so I caught about 50% of GS(T)L. American events were tough.
Now I'm unemployed, so it's Starcraft up the ass all day every day.
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On August 20 2014 23:41 Crot4le wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2014 23:20 NarutO wrote:On August 20 2014 23:12 Crot4le wrote:On August 20 2014 22:28 NarutO wrote:Frankly spoken - this is not what a foreign team is to me. Axiom are Koreans so they are not "foreigners" to me just because they are not playing on a Korean team. While Axiom has a good roster I certainly believe that proleague is the field the 'KOREANS' shine most. They are insanely good at preparing for one match up and one map. 'Foreigners' have trouble to take them down in the weekend-tournament bracket system so it will be even harder in this format. I am not counting out anyone and with due respect I have towards Axiom it still should be allowed to mention that they are not likely going to have a high-finish. This is not meant as offence as I myself am a fan of for example Impact or Ryung but being fan doesn't mean I cannot have another opinion on how Axiom would rate against the KeSPA teams. For example while Axiom has a deep roster as its always mentioned by TB, they did "ONLY" finish 4th in ATC and that wasn't just about other teams having the better star player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Acer_TeamStory_Cup_Season_3/Group_StageThey often edged out 'smaller teams' without big star players in close series, yet they also won convincingly against some of the other teams. While in proleague its not the allkill format through the season, I am saying that the average level or a proleague fielded player is WORLDS above the average ATC player, so people need to think if a 'deep roster' which is always the argument against the allkill format is able to edge out the monsters that are the proleague Koreans. Axiom would win the ATC if it were Proleague format. I don't know about that, but they have a higher chance compared to an allkill format yes. But its not about ATC, its about proleague and in proleague what looks like a deep lineup is no advantage to Axiom. I dare say that every proleague team can field either better or equal lineups. Would Axiom win Proleague? No probably not. But they'd definitely be competitive. Axiom's forte is preparation-based team leagues. CranK is a great coach, he proved this in GSTL. Axiom are one strong zerg player away from having a really strong and well-rounded six player roster. That's a lot of depth. I know TB has mentioned they will need more sponsors before they can afford a sixth player, but regardless I really fancy Axiom's chances to at least finish roughly mid-table in Proleague, and even more so with an extra three players that he was talking about from a team partnership (which let's be honest is most likely to be MMA, INnoVation and Scarlett in an AxiomAcer partnership, unless TB has some teamless Korean mercenaries on his mind but that doesn't seem as likely to me).
I simply believe you are overrating the Axiom players in comparison to proleague players especially when its about the prepared bo1. Impact is really strong. Ryung isn't really the most solid player ever. He peaks very high but he often has so-so games which you cannot afford to have in proleague. Alicia and Crank are prime examples of solid and good players, but being solid and good doesnt put you ahead of anyone in proleague. Same goes for Heart. By no means Axiom has 'bad' players, but on the other hand they don't really have outstanding talents within their roster that I would put ahead of proleague players.
You are saying they will rank midfield - I simply disagree. I can accept your opinion but there is no point talking this any further as its simply different opinions. If Axiom ranks in midfield of proleague I will be very happy for them and ofcourse it would prove me wrong but all my statements are not meant offensive in any way. I simply think that proleague players and their dedication and preperation is exceptional.
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On August 20 2014 23:19 Clonester wrote:
For me the bigger problem is in europe: The SPL starts arround 11 am. You work at that time. You cant watch SPL. You just cant do it.
I do it. I watch every single match while working.
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on the other hand, the TIME issue will always be there.
each time zone US / EUROPE / KOREA should focus on their own leagues and tournaments.
fly people for one weekend to another time zone for a special event is OK!
but not for an 8 month team league, you will hurt the other Zone.
if you want to compare it with football for example
Some MLS Team will not go for 8 Month to Spain only cause Spain TV Station would want more US Viewers.
Would it be great for the Fans of the MLS team, to see them compete with the best like Barcelona/Real Madrid, of course.
But the MLS would lose a great team and drop even more in quality.
The same can be said here. Would i love to see Snute, TLO, ect compete with the best of the best? of course.
but not if it would mean tournaments and leagues in europe would lose these players.
I like the current WCS System. 3 Regions, and at the end a big tournament like a World Cup.
Thats basically the System that every Sport has in some variation.
That leaves Korea based "foreign" Teams, i say go for it, why not?
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A team cobbled together of good foreign players won't work. The format of proleague places huge emphasis on preparation and planning. A mixed foreign team of individually good players won't cut it simple since they won't have the kind of support and preparation powers of kespa teams. Plus proleague needs a huge investment. Unless you have a big roster you simple can't afford to have your players flying out for things like dreamhack.
Has everyone forgotten the evil alliance between egtl that finished last.
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I think StarDust is an utopist 
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Maybe instead, we make a Europe Proleague or an NA Proleague or both or a combination. :o
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FIirst of all, i want to thank you for the amazing entertainement you gave us this year and also as a KT fanboy, yeahhh!!! 
Opening Proleague to the world maybe a good idea however i dont know if the right time has come. Some foreigner players can, with a bit of luck, have a decent level in order to show us good games but majority are not yet skilled enought to be a good vs proleague players.
it's coming slowly with the growth of sc2 and the increase of stability and sponsorship but, like it was suggested many time, a EG/TL/Axiom/Acer team makes no sense to me :S
i'd rather have a "foreigner team" composed with pple coming from ALL around the world (qualifier?) who can be in korea and give the time required for proleague than some top players already in teams with obligations and other concerns depending on the team.
To have a stonghold for foreigner maybe supported by iesf can be a solution.
I think it's the main issue, if foreginer teams want to enter why not ? but if it's "just" for the prestige of being on proleague there is no point.
Allowing foreigners to compete will not change the level of god, nothing can :p it'll just give us a chance to have our ass kicks XD
ps: it has been mention - to allow foreigner to cast in native language at a different timeline may help bring us more closer.
pss: plz try to see if blizzard can grant wcs points for proleague in order to have a real final at blizzcon
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On August 20 2014 22:49 rotta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2014 22:28 NarutO wrote:
Frankly spoken - this is not what a foreign team is to me. Axiom are Koreans so they are not "foreigners" to me just because they are not playing on a Korean team. Maybe they should be called koreigners from now on?
I came up with Euroreans for the MC/Patience/Yoda/First/ect
I like Koreigners
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EPT
