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Chuddinater
Korea (South)169 Posts
Looking forward to the next season of Proleague we want to make it more exciting then it was this year. We are toying with the idea of opening Proleague to the world. If we did open up Proleague next year to all teams which teams would you be most excited to watch? Do you think if we allowed foreign teams to enter would it lower the competitive level or increase it? 
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
Tbh, I just want to see some Taeja & Innovation in proleague.  | ||
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roarbot
United States2 Posts
I would love to see teams like Liquid, EG, Root, and YoeFW play against top-tier Koreans! | ||
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JeXeD
Canada6 Posts
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NFxJehuty
United Kingdom58 Posts
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SChlafmann
France725 Posts
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Onekobold
244 Posts
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lubu42
United States314 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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Oroch
Belgium143 Posts
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TerranosaurusWrecks
Canada187 Posts
i don't think i could name a foreign team that wouldn't decrease the competitiveness of proleague, but that being said it would be amazing to see eg/tl or axiom acer in the bunch. | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
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Random2732
Canada51 Posts
Looking forward to the new season regardless  | ||
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Sjokola
Netherlands800 Posts
I would love to see 2v2 come back to proleague it's to unexplored at competitive level. Edit: I like the idea for all-star teams. Maybe an wcs AM and wcs EU team? Although they should have a set roster, but that's what KeSPA would want anyway. | ||
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NFxJehuty
United Kingdom58 Posts
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On August 19 2014 10:55 Random2732 wrote: I would love to see Team Liquid, Axiom, Acer, and MyInsanity compete in some fashion, although I'm sure these teams wouldn't want their players as grounded in Korea as seems to be currently necessary for success in Proleague. Looking forward to the new season regardless I think ideally the team roster would be large enough to allow players to sub in and out depending on when they're available. You could have Taeja//Hero/Inno/MMA/Scarlett/Jjakji/Sacsri/Stardust/(Not sure if any of the MYI players live in KR)Jaedong/HuK/Bunny/Mana/Snute if they want to go back to KR. Add in all of the Axiom players and you have a pretty big team. The question is who would manage the team and how would they mesh together properly and all that jazz. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
Opening Proleague to the world is worth trying in my opinion, and would help increase the amount of interest in it for the crowd. Since maintaining a team in Korea to compete in Proleague is expensive and requires heavy resources I'd expect compound teams along the lines of EG-TL to be the main sort to apply. Allowing entry to foreign teams probably won't lower the competitive level depending on who applies. Smaller teams with less competitive lineups simply can't afford to send people to Proleague. If different major foreign teams all come together to create a sort of juggernaut team I think the level of competition will remain fairly high. Offering the option to participate in Proleague is definitely the right decision as really the worse case scenario is that no one applies which isn't a loss. | ||
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looknohands119
United States815 Posts
On August 19 2014 10:47 Chuddinater wrote: I hope everyone has enjoyed this season of Proleague as much as we have. There were plenty of exciting matches and the finals will be an event I will remember for the rest of my life, especially FlaSh kicking the soccer ball with the names of the SKT players into the crowd. Looking forward to the next season of Proleague we want to make it more exciting then it was this year. We are toying with the idea of opening Proleague to the world. If we did open up Proleague next year to all teams which teams would you be most excited to watch? Do you think if we allowed foreign teams to enter would it lower the competitive level or increase it? Obviously the foreign teams who are most qualified are Evil Geniuses, TeamLiquid, Acer, Axiom, and some of the big Chinese/Taiwanese teams. While in the short term, opening Proleague up might slightly decrease the average skill level, I think that it will dramatically increase it in the long-term. Think of it as an investment into developing "new blood" that will bring more innovation to drive progress in the Korean scene and that will draw more money and sponsorship by expanding Proleague's appeal outside of Korea. Edit: Who knows, maybe it would be incentive enough for some established teams from other games (LoL, DOTA2, CS:GO, etc...) to create SC2 squads or even for new non-Korean teams to form. Edit #2: Also, why the hell is everyone assuming that KeSPA wouldn't help reduce the financial barrier. Seems like them even considering opening things up marks a very large attitude shift from KeSPA compared to when EG-TL tried to compete. It isn't a stretch to think that the traditional buy in price would be heavily reduced or that the chosen team(s) would receive monetary and logistical help to make it more viable. TL'DR, while there might be some short term disadvantages and costs, its pretty hard to argue that it is the wrong move for either Starcraft or Korean eSports. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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AldarisGCE
United States20 Posts
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The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
Other ideas if you're open to general PL suggestions: Cash prizes for best ceremonies (More incentive to do ceremonies), pre-match interviews, more showmatches (race wars was hilarious), slightly less consistent map pool (often leads to cooler builds). EDIT: Misread the OP | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On August 19 2014 11:01 AldarisGCE wrote: As cool as it would be to see foreigners and foreign teams compete in SPL, doing so would really dilute the image of SPL as the single best team league in the world. Frankly, I feel the level of play and game quality in SPL this season has been MUCH higher than any other tournament. PLEASE DONT CHANGE IT. Best SC2 Proleague ever! The question is, could this team potentially place higher than last? If yes, it's not a bad addition in my opinion. Also consider that PL is losing a team for next season(probably), so would you rather have 7 teams or 8 teams? | ||
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SlatMan
29 Posts
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Clawfinger
Canada221 Posts
The teams that have the best chance are Axiom, Acer, TL, and EG. Maybe some sort of partnership between them would work out. | ||
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Yakikorosu
1203 Posts
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
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Soke
United States790 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On August 19 2014 11:01 The_Red_Viper wrote: TB your turn Yes yes, how many times must this question be brought up? It might end up happening just because I have a distinct feeling next year is gonna be sparse on the tournament front, so competing in Korea is the strongest option economically. Also with our unique approach to sponsor ROI we might be able to make it work even though its an event designed to benefit the KeSPA sponsors. We'll see | ||
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danbel1005
United States1319 Posts
On a serious note, this is great news, the more teams in Proleague the better. Give us JAEDONG, Acer, Axiom, Team`Liquid, Root and YoeFW. GL HF GG thank you Kespa and Proleague!!!! | ||
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starkiller94
5 Posts
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[MD]Frostbite
Canada292 Posts
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
So who could play in SPL form Outside? Axiom, acer and? TL would have to invest a large amount of money for the infrastructure, EG is not near any form of a SPL roster, even fall out of the ATC. MyI could send their 3 Koreans, but not a whole roster, same for other Teams. So when KESPA plans with one or even more Teams from outside, they should def. think about one "all Star Team", consisting of Acer, MyI, TL and JaeDong. But the problem will stay, they have to change to GSL and thats might worry the outsider. It is not 2012 where there werent that large tournaments outside the GSL. And please KESPA read this: Think about the 2vs2 as a third game in a best of 5 ProLeague-Format. 2vs2 is so much entertaining and brings up quite a lot of new, fresh things. Its great and many people would like to see em. | ||
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tomastaz
United States976 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On August 19 2014 11:08 TotalBiscuit wrote: Yes yes, how many times must this question be brought up? It might end up happening just because I have a distinct feeling next year is gonna be sparse on the tournament front, so competing in Korea is the strongest option economically. Also with our unique approach to sponsor ROI we might be able to make it work even though its an event designed to benefit the KeSPA sponsors. We'll see Is there a reason you couldn't get a Kespa sponsor? Or is it just a sponsor like JA or KT would just conflict with your current sponsors in either field (like monster vs redbull) or location (competing in korea vs being around the world) Obviously I understand that its ridiculously difficult to accomplish, I'm just curious if there's something inherently stopping it other than its difficulty and possible bad ROI | ||
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Zer atai
United States691 Posts
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Yhamm
France7248 Posts
On August 19 2014 10:47 Chuddinater wrote: We are toying with the idea of opening Proleague to the world. If we did open up Proleague next year to all teams which teams would you be most excited to watch? Do you think if we allowed foreign teams to enter would it lower the competitive level or increase it? -Only teams I see that could have the level : Team Liquid, Acer, Axiom, yoe Flash Wolves, Invictus Gaming, Startale (depending on if they still have a partnership with an other or not) -I don't think it would lower it, they are in no way weaker than what was Prime, IM or MVP Now that I answered, I don't think any of those teams (apart Startale maybe) can afford a so long season of Proleague and all that imply (team house, players who need to be in Korea for long times, etc) but it's great that you are opened to such things! | ||
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Iodem
United States1173 Posts
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MarinePrince
United States101 Posts
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On August 19 2014 11:11 chipmonklord17 wrote: Is there a reason you couldn't get a Kespa sponsor? Or is it just a sponsor like JA or KT would just conflict with your current sponsors in either field (like monster vs redbull) or location (competing in korea vs being around the world) Obviously I understand that its ridiculously difficult to accomplish, I'm just curious if there's something inherently stopping it other than its difficulty and possible bad ROI It would be stupid hard, we're focused on foreign markets where Korean sponsors don't sell their products. It would involve changing our entire strategy, not to mention putting us at the behest of that sponsor which I will absolutely not do. I don't want to be in the position where I have to ask my sponsors permission for every action I take, particularly when my individual media reach outside of Korea is larger than Proleagues is. It makes no sense to do that. Proleague should consider would be Team Liquid, Team Acer, and possibly Team Axiom. Glad to hear that winning GSTL only gets us a "possibly" when it comes to teamleagues. I'm under no illusions that Proleague is the hardest league in the world but if we played we'd be no EG-TL. Our players are more than capable of taking games off those guys, they do it every day on ladder. If we were to ever enter Proleague I'd treat it as a learning experience for our team, rather than hyping expectations to ridiculous levels only to disappoint. Axiom would not be "unleashing a monster" into Proleague, they'd be there to learn from the best and show entertaining matchs for the fans as well as support the league by bulking up the roster. Regardless this is all completely hypothetical. | ||
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Netsky
Australia1155 Posts
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URLateral
275 Posts
On August 19 2014 10:49 SidianTheBard wrote: I think it's safe to say if Team Liquid got invited (and actually wanted to play) viewership might increase. Or maybe even a TL/EG/Axiom combo team! mmmmm Tbh, I just want to see some Taeja & Innovation in proleague. Please no EG they dont care about sc2 and it shows in their line up let jaedong play for another team (their only player) and pick Liquid, Axiom, Acer | ||
Waxangel
United States33429 Posts
However, with mYi's mysteriously deep pockets over the last few years, one can always hope.... | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13977 Posts
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MCXD
Australia2738 Posts
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Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On August 19 2014 11:15 Netsky wrote: Awesome idea, but there aren't any foreigner teams with the skill level capable of competing. Last time a "foreigner" team (EG-TL) tried competing in Proleague it was a train wreck. Honestly, EG-TL did better than Prime/MVP/IM did most rounds this season. They were one match win away from not finishing last overall throughout the entire 6 round season. In 3 out of the 4 rounds this season MVP finished 1-6. Prime finished 1-6 twice and 2-5 twice. EG-TL was better than Prime and MVP, easily. Maybe better than IM too. | ||
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DeadSanto123
United States90 Posts
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starslayer
United States696 Posts
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mikumegurine
Canada3145 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
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PDizzle
Denmark1754 Posts
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winthrop
Hong Kong956 Posts
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Exarl25
1887 Posts
The current top foreigners plus some monsters like Jaedong/Taeja/Hero could form a worthy roster. And having our best foreigners training for and competing in Proleague is the best way to keep them on par with the top tier. I hope players like Scarlett and Snute would be up for this kind of opportunity. | ||
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mikumegurine
Canada3145 Posts
On August 19 2014 11:26 Exarl25 wrote: I don't think any single foreign team is capable of even fielding enough players on their own, not even taking into account being up to the challenge skill wise. Not every player will necessarily be willing to live in Korea and compete in Proleague. There will have to be some mixing and matching, either a partnership or just an all-star team. The current top foreigners plus some monsters like Jaedong/Taeja/Hero could form a worthy roster. And having our best foreigners training for and competing in Proleague is the best way to keep them on par with the top tier. I hope players like Scarlett and Snute would be up for this kind of opportunity. foreigner team of Taeja, Polt, San, Hyun, Leenock, Stardust, MMA, Innovation, MC, JD...ummm Pigbaby too ? this could compete in PL | ||
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Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
I mean I'm sure it would increase viewership by a large amount, but does it cheapen the prestige of the League when one of those teams does not have the skill to compete? It's basically Prime 2.0 | ||
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NexUmbra
Scotland3776 Posts
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On August 19 2014 11:29 Lunareste wrote: Think about what happened the last time we had a "foreign" team in Proleague I mean I'm sure it would increase viewership by a large amount, but does it cheapen the prestige of the League when one of those teams does not have the skill to compete? It's basically Prime 2.0 And we basically had 3 " foreign " teams in the season that just ended, and it was the best season yet. The skill gap between the top and bottom teams in PL is much larger now than it was in the 12/13 season. | ||
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mikumegurine
Canada3145 Posts
On August 19 2014 11:32 LongShot27 wrote: If the foreign team was in Korea, live, then I don't think it would lower the competition level at all. If we all remember EGTL actually performed well in 4 out of the 6 rounds of the 2012-2013 pro-league. But if they had to play online it would definitely make it less enjoyable. I would suggest that during the off season you try an things like all star matches with the best Kespa players playing against a team of the best foreigners and see how that works. Similar to the Korea vs the world that GSL had which turned out to be amazing EGTL (foreigner team) used alot of koreans so just make another foreigner team of Taeja, Polt, San, Hyun, Leenock, Stardust, MMA, Innovation, MC, JD...ummm Pigbaby too this foreigner team would be able to compete in PL and not lower the competition level (much if at all) | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 19 2014 11:34 mikumegurine wrote: EGTL used alot of koreans so just make another foreigner team of Taeja, Polt, San, Hyun, Leenock, Stardust, MMA, Innovation, MC, JD...ummm Pigbaby too this foreigner team would be able to compete in PL and not lower the competition level There are plenty of foreigners who could beat Kespa players in a Bo1. Do I think they would win the season or even make the playoffs? Highly unlikely. But if they never start, we will never know at all | ||
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Holdenintherye
Canada1441 Posts
If non-Kespa players like teaja, hyun, and polt were to play in Proleague, it would either mean they would not go to foreign events because of their commitment to the league OR if they do attend a lot of foreign events, they won't be doing as well as they could in Proleague. Then what's the point of having them compete if they're going to be outclassed by Kespa Koreans who prioritize Proleague above all else? tl;dr: you can't have your cake and eat it too  | ||
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Kergy
Peru2011 Posts
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Blargh
United States2103 Posts
Would the level of competition increase? I think you'd have to be incredibly optimistic to think that adding foreign teams would improve the competition. EG-TL got pretty wrecked back when they participated, and they had a decent lineup of Koreans (+Coach Park). Humorously, I think many of the players who played for EG-TL have improved tremendously, and could actually be considered somewhat of a threat. Still, no foreign team (Acer/TL) will ever be able to match the lineups of KT Rolster and SK Telecom. | ||
digmouse
China6329 Posts
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NexUmbra
Scotland3776 Posts
On August 19 2014 11:32 LongShot27 wrote: If the foreign team was in Korea, live, then I don't think it would lower the competition level at all. If we all remember EGTL actually performed well in 4 out of the 6 rounds of the 2012-2013 pro-league. But if they had to play online it would definitely make it less enjoyable. I would suggest that during the off season you try an things like all star matches with the best Kespa players playing against a team of the best foreigners and see how that works. Similar to the Korea vs the world that GSL had which turned out to be amazing While the Korea versus the World team thing was amazing, the actual tournament itself only had one non-Korean beating a Korean player(Dimaga vs Nestea) and even then the tournament was three years ago. The level of play in GSL/Proleague right now is too high for a foreign/collective foreign team to not place last. | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
On August 19 2014 11:08 TotalBiscuit wrote: Yes yes, how many times must this question be brought up? It might end up happening just because I have a distinct feeling next year is gonna be sparse on the tournament front, so competing in Korea is the strongest option economically. Also with our unique approach to sponsor ROI we might be able to make it work even though its an event designed to benefit the KeSPA sponsors. We'll see TB, has there been any talk about KeSPA helping you get any Korean sponsors, at least on a yearly basis for more economically viable PL participation? Probably not super longterm ones that lock your boys in on Korea, but maybe a medium-term sponsorship could be beneficial to both parties. | ||
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
But foreigners in proleague? Not unless they're willing to join Kespa teams imo, the idea of a foreigner/foreign Korean dream team didn't work well last time. | ||
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zelevin
United States274 Posts
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Meckie
18 Posts
The problem is getting enough players from foreign teams to actually commit to playing PL. I'm quite sure it'll have to be a fusion of various foreign teams as many have suggested. While it would be fantastic, I seriously doubt the by far strongest foreigners - Bunny, Snute and Scarlett - would be interested in staying in Korea and have PL as first priority. So it'll have to be Koreans from foreign teams and the obvious choice would definitely be a fusion of Axiom/Acer. They can definitely contest the weaker KeSPA-teams. I really, really have a hard time understanding people who are against having foreign teams in PL. It WILL help StarCraft. | ||
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Tobblish
Sweden6404 Posts
There's not a lot of players on the teams that could be good enough. A Foreign Allstar team would be cool tho. Adding in available players to the roster for a Round or two and changing out players for new available players wanting to go. So instead of having a set roster the team could exchange players heavily for Rounds and maybe have a house for the players participating to live together in. | ||
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caznitch
Canada645 Posts
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Spleydi
Switzerland20 Posts
But i dont think thatt forgneir Teams could go to Korea just for PL and then go back again and do that over and over again, it´s way to stressfull and so their skill would decrease. So the other option would be to make PL online....but.....PL as an online event whit forgneir Teams or PL as an offline event whitout forgneir Teams....second choice is clearly the better one. But Acer could go, most of them are in Korea anyway.(and yoe flash wolves and maybe axiom) | ||
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Meckie
18 Posts
On August 19 2014 11:46 Tobblish wrote: Having foreign teams make their way into PL wouldn't be the best imo. There's not a lot of players on the teams that could be good enough. A Foreign Allstar team would be cool tho. Adding in available players to the roster for a Round or two and changing out players for new available players wanting to go. So instead of having a set roster the team could exchange players heavily for Rounds and maybe have a house for the players participating to live together in. Acer: Innovation, MMA and Scarlett. Axiom: Alicia, Heart, Ryung and Impact. Liquid: Snute, Bunny, HerO and TaeJa yoe Flash Wolves: San and Leenock iG: Jim. The vast majority of the above-mentioned are definitely capable of taking out the "weaker" KeSPA-players. That's not an assumption - that's a fact. | ||
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Zenbrez
Canada5973 Posts
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sM.Zik
Canada2550 Posts
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Iodem
United States1173 Posts
On August 19 2014 11:59 sM.Zik wrote: We need Jaedong back in proleague. you know I wouldn't be surprised if that was the sole reason for doing this | ||
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Hunta15
United States81 Posts
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sOsFan
United States2 Posts
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fezvez
France3021 Posts
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
Also foreign teams committing to PL is so hard. Dunno that anyone will want to do it | ||
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URLateral
275 Posts
On August 19 2014 12:02 Hunta15 wrote: New EG-TL! you mean TL + Jaedong right? | ||
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Shellshock
United States97276 Posts
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SKTRolster
Philippines6 Posts
SKT ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1NuGXvx.png) is still the best ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MsxcOXX.png) | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On August 19 2014 11:54 Meckie wrote: Acer: Innovation, MMA and Scarlett. Axiom: Alicia, Heart, Ryung and Impact. Liquid: Snute, Bunny, HerO and TaeJa yoe Flash Wolves: San and Leenock iG: Jim. The vast majority of the above-mentioned are definitely capable of taking out the "weaker" KeSPA-players. That's not an assumption - that's a fact. CranK has won 10 BO3s this week against Korean players this week in qualifiers, 6 of whom play in Proleague. Don't count him out. | ||
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Draconicfire
Canada2562 Posts
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Stardust_
Korea (South)10 Posts
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On August 19 2014 12:14 SKTRolster wrote: Proleague needs Jaedong, Innovation, Taeja and people wants to see Korean vs the World.Wish it coming next Proleague SKT is still the best Taeja hates playing pro league though which really hurts TL's chances (plus HerO already partnered with MVP) | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On August 19 2014 12:17 Darkhorse wrote: Taeja hates playing pro league though which really hurts TL's chances (plus HerO already partnered with MVP) I imagine that if TL were playing in proleague the MVP HerO partnership would end. | ||
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MarinePrince
United States101 Posts
On August 19 2014 11:14 TotalBiscuit wrote: Glad to hear that winning GSTL only gets us a "possibly" when it comes to teamleagues. I'm under no illusions that Proleague is the hardest league in the world but if we played we'd be no EG-TL. Our players are more than capable of taking games off those guys, they do it every day on ladder. If we were to ever enter Proleague I'd treat it as a learning experience for our team, rather than hyping expectations to ridiculous levels only to disappoint. Axiom would not be "unleashing a monster" into Proleague, they'd be there to learn from the best and show entertaining matchs for the fans as well as support the league by bulking up the roster. Regardless this is all completely hypothetical. Hi TB, I'm a huge fan of Axiom and you personally, so please understand I didn't mean to be rude or insult your players. To clarify, I added possibly because I didn't know if you had enough players to play in Proleague. On second thought, though, you have Crank, Heart, Ryung, Alicia, and Impact which afaik, should be enough after all. | ||
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Taco87
Norway72 Posts
It would be very cool to see Liquid/acer/axiom in proleague ! :D | ||
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On August 19 2014 12:04 sOsFan wrote: I think that proleague should remain strictly to korean teams. With the level of play koreans bring to the table, allowing outsiders in would only decrease the level of skill. Although there are some outstanding players who do not live in korean or aren't korean, overall the level of competition would decrease. One other perk of leaving SPL as is would be the collectiveness of all the korean players. I love watching KT, SKT, Jin Air, CJ, Samsung, etc. play against eachother, but this is truly the only place to watch these teams play in one night. What I'm trying to say is that I can watch EG or TL or ROOT players in almost any other tournament, but in all of those tournaments there might be only 2-4 SPL players. Having them all collectively placed into SPL makes it so I can see them play the most. Yes, the korean players would remain in SPL, its not like they would be kicked out, but some NA/EU team would take a KR team's spot in SPL, and when I can see that team generally anywhere else, its obvious that the KR team (being more exclusive) should be competing in SPL. This is the same PL that had MVP and Prime and T8 and Air Force Ace. How can you say that with a straight face? | ||
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On August 19 2014 12:20 Taco87 wrote: Team Liquid, Acer, Axiom and Startale are the only teams that are strong enough i feel. It would be very cool to see Liquid/acer/axiom in proleague ! :D Since when is Startale a non-Korean team? | ||
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TeslasPigeon
464 Posts
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On August 19 2014 12:18 chipmonklord17 wrote: I imagine that if TL were playing in proleague the MVP HerO partnership would end. Probably yes haha but it would be awkward to break that off so fast. Also they'd have to provide some place for the players to live | ||
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
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SEALteamSIX
1 Post
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
He begs. aLive looks down and smiles. And walks away. Then revival and Oz run Alex over with a range rover end of story | ||
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covetousrat
2109 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On August 19 2014 12:24 Darkhorse wrote: Wait I have a thought: Alex Garfield desperately wants to get EG in pro league again, but doesn't have enough players. He goes through the Korean free agents, but it seems no one is available. Finally he remembers one last player he can try. He begs. aLive looks down and smiles. And walks away. Then revival and Oz run Alex over with a range rover end of story wow I totally forgot Alive was on EG, I remembered Oz and Revival though. | ||
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On August 19 2014 12:28 Dodgin wrote: wow I totally forgot Alive was on EG, I remembered Oz and Revival though. You have an ugly soul | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
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Tehhaxorz
Australia1 Post
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Arceus
Vietnam8333 Posts
On August 19 2014 12:20 stuchiu wrote: This is the same PL that had MVP and Prime and T8 and Air Force Ace. How can you say that with a straight face? Because non-Korean teams are most definitely semi-dedicated to playing in SPL with their concentration on travel and whatnot. Thats the only issue I have with foreign teams (and partnership also) | ||
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captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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Redrot
United States446 Posts
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
Why would a sponsor from Europe or America be interested in paying for an entire team to travel to another land where they have much less marketing and growth potential, and having those same players not competing in tournaments where they can show their brands to consumers who have easier access to their products. | ||
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SC2Towelie
United States561 Posts
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TheDougler
Canada8304 Posts
If it was open to any team with the resources to apply then I think the format would have to change. Maybe eliminating the bottom two teams each month or something like that. I don't think the quality of competition would decrease. It didn't when EGTL played. Sure EGTL got beat up pretty bad, but they put up a fight enough times, and regardless of how EGTL did every team was playing their best no matter what it seemed regardless of who they were playing. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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dyDrawer
Canada438 Posts
Even the "foreign" Koreans might not be able to stop the might of these faceless KeSPA giants. The recent KeSPA cup should give us a pretty good idea: foreign fan favs like TaeJa, Jaedong, Polt, HerO and HyuN fell early and fell hard. TaeJa's 0-2 loss to Action, Jaedong's 0-2 loss to DeParture, Polt's 0-2 loss to Trust are particularly alarming, as these are often considered some of the best foreign Koreans and aces of their respective teams, and all 3 lost 0-2 to bench players on KeSPA teams. Whether that was due to lag or form issues, we don't know, but surely this isn't a good sign. Even if an international all-star team is formed, there is this huge issue with organization and coaching. Proleague is heavily about preparation. Just by having a bunch of really good players isn't enough (@SKT1 from 2013 season). With the foreign players coming and going, leaving and going back to Korea for WCS and what not, I really can't see an all star team do well. What I think might be viable, is work with StarTale, which is sort of one of a kind now: not belonging to KeSPA but a Korean team from head to toe. It has some pretty good players left, like Curious and Life. I know they're short on funds, but if KeSPA can help with securing some good loans and alliances (Acer comes to mind, INnoVation is playing in GSL anyway), this could be the beginning of something great. | ||
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wrier
Canada291 Posts
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KanoCoke
Japan863 Posts
Team Liquid, EG, Acer, Millenium, Axiom, ROOT and yoe Flash Wolves. | ||
Jowj
United States248 Posts
That said, i'd be most excited about: Axiom Acer Any team with Jaedong on it YoeFlashWolves mYinsanity | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
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purakushi
United States3300 Posts
Jaedong has to be included. Viewership will instantly increase. Other good choices: Taeja, Snute, HerO Play Starbow!!! | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On August 19 2014 13:03 purakushi wrote: All-star team. Jaedong has to be included. Viewership will instantly increase. Other good choices: Taeja, Snute, HerO Play Starbow!!! your personal quote makes me irrationally angry also no one plays starbow anymore. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
He discusses it a bit with HuK on twitter. Don't know how to link the whole conversation. edit: Stardust has deleted all his tweets about this. Maybe there's something in the works he's not supposed to reveal? | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On August 19 2014 13:08 insitelol wrote: No foreigners please! This will definetely lower the level of competition! SPL is elite league and always was for best of the best. Maybe the foreigners would up their game if given such a chance? It doesn't happen to all of them, but often times simply living in Korea is very beneficial to foreigners. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 19 2014 13:06 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: your personal quote makes me irrationally angry also no one plays starbow anymore. don't get baited | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
Oh, I know it's bait, but sometimes I just can't leave stupidity of that level alone. | ||
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mikumegurine
Canada3145 Posts
On August 19 2014 13:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote: According to his twitter Stardust seems to have hand in this, and is trying to help form a superteam. Really interested to see how this goes. https://twitter.com/StardustSC2/status/501562442561093632 He discusses it a bit with HuK on twitter. Don't know how to link the whole conversation. HuK in PL hmmm interesting | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
Bringing in an all star team of foreigners from various teams would seem to be a smarter move to increase interest across the world. That coupled with some sort of backing by pro league to make housing them comfortably while there and getting around Korea could work. This would both increase the possibility for the foreign players to be competitive, give them other foreigners to spend time with to decrease isolation, and make it more justifiable to the teams. The question would be if pro league thinks heavily supporting something such as this would be enough of a financial gain to justify the financial cost. I think if possible to test run it would be worth the experiment for at least one season. Edit: Also finding ways to allow foreign players sponsors to still be involved could be a smart way to attract more foreign sponsors to pro league, if there was foreign players to help promote the brands across the world. Such a venture could be a huge step forward for Pro League or an absolute blunder if not done correctly. | ||
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Motlu
Australia884 Posts
Just convincing any teams to commit would be tough, especially as a lot of the top koreans on foreign teams left Kespa to avoid the scheduling constrictions of proleague to attend foreign tournaments. | ||
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meshfusion
Russian Federation232 Posts
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CuSToM
United States1478 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33429 Posts
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N.geNuity
United States5112 Posts
and certainly ogn is allowing foreign participation in LoL, which I don't quite know the organization of OGN Champions with kespa (I know teams joined kespa but don't know the organization of champions/korea circuit tournament itself) but that has had foreign teams in the past and I think even is inviting a chinese team. as many others have said in the thread that yeah, sure, if the barrier for getting a foreign team into proleague was | ||
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Melix
United States89 Posts
Also, for everyone that keeps bringing up EG-TL don't forget that they went 3-4 in every single round but one, which isn't dominant but certainly competitive. People remember the season as a failure because everyone expected them to be the top team because all the other teams had only just started playing SC2 full-time. An all star team in 2015 would be much stronger than EG-TL -- the big question is who would coach them. | ||
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Motlu
Australia884 Posts
On August 19 2014 13:36 CuSToM wrote: I'd like to see Invictus Gaming, or some dream team of the top Chinese players. I think if any kind of foreigner has a chance of competing with Korea in the right environment, it's the Chinese. It would be good to see the Chinese teams get some exposure, and if there is any league that can whip some low tier players into shape it is PL. Would be a huge boost for the Chinese scene | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3424 Posts
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KatatoniK
United Kingdom978 Posts
AxiomAcer would be awesome if TB can find a way to get a good sponsor that won't lock the whole team down in KR and have good foreign coverage which could be difficult. Outside of Samsung (already have a team), LG (Who are probably a massive no-go after the fiasco with IM) Hyundai and Daewoo I can't think of many KR companies who are on the global markets let alone one who'd be willing to sponsor an SC2 team, that tournament wise doesn't have much presence in Korea. If KeSPA and TB can find something that works though then that'd be awesome. As for the teamless players, the old MVP guys apparently didn't like playing in PL that much. I don't think the GEM guys will want to lock themselves to KR for a majority of the year, makes it harder for them to farm events for WCS points. StarDust has an interesting idea with combining teams to make a "foreign" all-star team, if he can get players like JD, Pigbaby, Jjakji, Sacsri, SuperNova, Journey etc you'd have a pretty decent team on your hands. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Let's assume for a moment that Kespa would partner up with a few organizers in Europe/America and e.g. European teams could play from Cologne. Good? Bad? | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 19 2014 13:08 insitelol wrote: No foreigners please! This will definetely lower the level of competition! SPL is elite league and always was for best of the best. But its ok for prime to play? | ||
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Marou
Germany1371 Posts
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
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TAMinator
Australia2706 Posts
I do like this idea though and I hope we can see some diversity in proleague. | ||
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Urth
United States1250 Posts
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meshfusion
Russian Federation232 Posts
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Sanders
97 Posts
And/or a team of all-star non-Kespa Koreans. Jaedong, Innovation, MMA, etc. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On August 19 2014 14:11 Sanders wrote: My absolute favourite option would be getting an all-star team of non-Koreans involved. Snute, Scarlett, Vortix, Major, Sen, that would be cool. And/or a team of all-star non-Kespa Koreans. Jaedong, Innovation, MMA, etc. and they'd be bottom of the league. No good training environment and coach = no good team. You can't just throw a bunch of good players together and expect them to work well in a teamleague. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On August 19 2014 14:11 Sanders wrote: My absolute favourite option would be getting an all-star team of non-Koreans involved. Snute, Scarlett, Vortix, Major, Sen, that would be cool. And/or a team of all-star non-Kespa Koreans. Jaedong, Innovation, MMA, etc. Good luck getting any top foreigners, much less all of them, to commit to proleague and give up all the foreign tournaments and their WCS potential. | ||
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dustinth
China205 Posts
On August 19 2014 14:13 ZigguratOfUr wrote: I'm not sure why people are persuaded that the quality of play would necessarily decrease. The performance of Axiom-Acer in the last two GSTL's though this was a while ago shows that foreign teams can definitely compete on equal or superior footing with some of the teams in Proleague (IM, MVP and Prime). The right foreign team especially an all-star team would almost certainly be middle of the pack or better given appropriate priority management and coaching. GSTL is far away from the same level of Proleague. At the beginning of previous SPL, I was thinking IM may be better than Samsung or CJ, considering their player line up at that time. and you know the result. | ||
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IAmBelieve
Canada70 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 19 2014 14:13 TotalBiscuit wrote: and they'd be bottom of the league. No good training environment and coach = no good team. You can't just throw a bunch of good players together and expect them to work well in a teamleague. i tried summoning you in another thread to ask if you'd punch me if i tried to give you a hug irl and you never responded | ||
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Telon Petrides
Canada58 Posts
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Tobblish
Sweden6404 Posts
On August 19 2014 11:54 Meckie wrote: Acer: Innovation, MMA and Scarlett. Axiom: Alicia, Heart, Ryung and Impact. Liquid: Snute, Bunny, HerO and TaeJa yoe Flash Wolves: San and Leenock iG: Jim. The vast majority of the above-mentioned are definitely capable of taking out the "weaker" KeSPA-players. That's not an assumption - that's a fact. And a roster needs 6 players for playoff, not a single roster you mentions have that. Thats why I'm for a team where all foreign teams and teamless players can get a opportunity to play in. | ||
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swag_bro
Japan782 Posts
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Brutaxilos
United States2629 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 19 2014 14:20 IAmBelieve wrote: Get axiom in! please no foreign teams! Axiom is a foreign team though. On August 19 2014 14:18 dustinth wrote: GSTL is far away from the same level of Proleague. At the beginning of previous SPL, I was thinking IM may be better than Samsung or CJ, considering their player line up at that time. and you know the result. Its really all theoretical at this point, since we don't know what shape or form the superteam would take or even if it exists, and with the status of several Korean teams next season very uncertain; with Prime losing some of its lineup, with IM losing their whole lineup, and MVP rebuilding entirely. My position is just that if such a team had existed last season it would have been very capable of defeating at least the bottom three teams, since Axiom-Acer had previously exhibited such characteristics in the GSTL. This foreign alliance would thus not have lowered the overall quality of Proleague, which is an opinion that several people in this thread have expressed previously based on the simplistic reasoning that they such a team would be foreign. | ||
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Ace Frehley
2030 Posts
It'd have hype in the first round, then it'd die in flames like eg-tl Edit The reason a team would fail just for being foreigner would be because they would not commit They wouldn't pass a dreamhack for the sake of proleague I have my doubts if they would pass a random online tournament with free money on the line going deep into the night in a proleague day | ||
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Jeyopo
France35 Posts
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
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OgerGolg
Germany65 Posts
I hope you will do itAn All-Star team would be a good option, when most of the existing rosters of the teams can't live in Korea, but normally you should invite the orignal teams. GL with this step | ||
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Split Behemoth
France104 Posts
I would love to see Acer, Liquid, Axiom or mYinsanity in Proleague; | ||
DARKING
Mexico674 Posts
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SelimSC
Turkey39 Posts
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Ammanas
Slovakia2166 Posts
Therefore I would propose, if you really want to open it up which I don't think is a good idea, to get either Chinese (iG) or Taiwanese (Yoe Flash Wolves) teams in or maybe some all-star lineup from Taiwan/China. Just no more EG-TL joke teams plz. | ||
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
Buuuut it wont happen. | ||
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J0k3
Sweden40 Posts
JD, Scarlett, Taeja, | ||
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stevorino
957 Posts
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Rescawen
Finland1028 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On August 19 2014 16:11 Rescawen wrote: The only realistic possibility here is an all star team. It would probably happen if kespa supports TB and enlarges the axiom house. You could have top foreigners like snute, bunny etc rotating in and out. Innovation mma jaedong taeja etc being there more often. Kespa has to be flexible to make something like this work. If assembled it would be huge boost for viewer count and exposure. TB's saint levels are being tested so hard | ||
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LoneYoShi
France1348 Posts
So that's why I don't think just putting some kind of "allstar" team together and make them play in Proleague won't necessarily work that well. Another problem is the fact that a ProLeague season is super long (almost a year), and the players that we are talking about are actually interested in playing in weekend tournaments/WCS/other events, so getting them to fully commit for a whole ProLeague season won't be easy. Here are 3 potentials ideas (constructive feedback always welcome) 1. A good way to do it would be to have an allstar team in Korea, but: - To require those players to focus primarily on ProLeague so they are competitive on don't drag the level of play down (no weekend tournament outside of korea during the time where they play in ProLeague) - To allow easy and unlimited player changes between rounds That way, the players interested would be able to go to Korea to train and participate in ProLeague fully (and show their real skill) but wouldn't have to commit for a whole year, just for one round or two (so they would still be able to participate in many weekend tournaments during the rest of they year). I don't really have any idea regarding who would provide the living accomodation/coaching staff for such an "allstar team" though. 2. Another idea would be to maybe allow "player exchanges" between kespa and non-kespa teams ? There are probable a few kespa players that are interested in taking part in foreign tournaments, so just as an example, imagine if KT could "trade" Stats against Innovation for a round or two. That way, Stats could play in overseas tournament and teamleagues with Acer (if he's interested in doing that ofc), and Inno would take his place in the KT house, benefit from the KT coaching and playing in Proleague in Stat's place. 3. Another idea could be to have all current korean kespa teams to partner up with non-kespa teams/players, and play bo7 instead of bo5 where each team would have to field one non-kespa player at each match. But this would enforce all team to get partnerships, even those who aren't really interested, so that's not great. | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
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kaby
Russian Federation195 Posts
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LeLfe
France3160 Posts
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klup
France612 Posts
The real challenge however is to open proleague to be rebroadcast at EU-NA friendly time. A recent initiative of GSL allowing french crew Ogamingtv to broadcast GSL at european time is the way to go imo. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
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Sakkreth
Lithuania1096 Posts
EG-TL Axiom-Acer: INnovation +++ MMA ++ Scarlett ++ Nerchio + Bly Paranoid Alicia ++ Crank ++ Heart ++ Ryung ++ Impact ++ EG-TL: Jaedong +++ HuK + Suppy Xenocider Demuslim TaeJa +++ HerO +++ Bunny ++ Snute ++ TLO + MaNa + Ret + One plus: Capable of winning some maps Two pluses: Capable of being in the lineup successfully constantly winning 50%+ matches Three pluses: Capable to be among top ranked players in proleague. Both teams would be capable to compete, EGTL are more top heavy, but Axiom-Acer is more balanced, Axiom alone brings pretty muc hviable lineup, acer adds Ace in InNoVation and few other capable players, but mostly substitutes except for MMA. EGTL would have 3 monster players and 2 arguably best foreigners at this point who are more than capable of taking some maps in proleague making it scary 5 player lineup. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 19 2014 16:52 JustPassingBy wrote: Would be awesome to see foreigners in Proleague, but somehow I doubt that there will be many players willing to move to Korea and stay grounded there for an extended period of time. :-/ What if there were partner studios in Europe and America from which those teams were allowed to play? Would be pretty awesome watching Proleague from Cologne with Liquid staying there. | ||
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crazyweasel
607 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On August 19 2014 16:53 Big J wrote: What if there were partner studios in Europe and America from which those teams were allowed to play? Would be pretty awesome watching Proleague from Cologne with Liquid staying there. That would be awesome, but would they be willing to do something like that? I mean that would lessen the live viewing experience by quite a lot for the Korean audience, unless adding new teams would increase the number of games by so much that some have to be played without live audience. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
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Grovbolle
Denmark3806 Posts
EG-TL was that team last season and they still got pwned. Now consider how much KeSPA have improved since then. | ||
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effecto
France142 Posts
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jubil
United States2602 Posts
If Proleague was to be more open, while fully remaining in its current format, the expansion would probably have to be either an "all-star" team (open to any Korea-based foreigner team members) or a combination team, probably any combination of Acer, Axiom, Liquid, EG, and Chinese or Taiwanese teams. The problem is just the same was it was with EG-TL, however. Naturally less strict training and practice regimen combined with the allure of foreign events, on top of unfamiliarity with playing in Korea/Proleague means any foreigners/Koreans-on-foreign-teams would already be at a disadvantage. I think a more reasonable, slow expansion is better - host online Kespa vs foreign team showmatches in Proleague style format, rotating between all Kespa teams and whichever foreign teams are interested. Perhaps after this event concludes, invite the best foreign team to Korea to play in a single round of Proleague, and/or invite the best performing foreigners (including, again, Koreans-on-foreign-teams) to Korea for an all-star game vs a selection of Kespa players. This is less of a burden on foreign teams, and less dilution of the Kespa brand (while still an exciting, novel expansion). | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
EG ? They have... Jeadong. That's all. TL ? They have TaeJa. HerO showed us last time and in shoutcraft clan wars that he is NOT on the same level. The rest... can win a game sometime but i doubt a player like Bunny can even compete with KassiA who have like 20% WR. Acer havec Innovation and MMA. OK. That's 2 player. They have Scarlett. Yes ok she can win some of the matches as well. And then.. no. And axiom is doing good but... They are not playing GSL,SPL opponents But hey. Could be a booster for those teams. | ||
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Shinta)
United States1716 Posts
I guess I'm neutral to the idea. Looking forward more so to an even better production as well as more entertainment from SPL and the players. It was great already, but improving on this would make PL a treat to watch even if none of your favorite teams/players are playing, and to me that's way more important. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 19 2014 16:56 JustPassingBy wrote: That would be awesome, but would they be willing to do something like that? I mean that would lessen the live viewing experience by quite a lot for the Korean audience, unless adding new teams would increase the number of games by so much that some have to be played without live audience. I think the viewing experience could still be good for as long as the studios team up well in terms of production. But it would be very different I guess, if there was only one team at the place you watch from or sometimes even none. I think more teams would be cooler. Increase the uniqueness and importance of the "big matches", instead of the monthly KT vs SKT match. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 19 2014 17:05 FFW_Rude wrote: Oh come on. Who can win a game against a woke up KT/SKT/SAMSUNG/JAINAIR ? EG ? They have... Jeadong. That's all. TL ? They have TaeJa. HerO showed us last time and in shoutcraft clan wars that he is NOT on the same level. The rest... can win a game sometime but i doubt a player like Bunny can even compete with KassiA who have like 20% WR. Acer havec Innovation and MMA. OK. That's 2 player. They have Scarlett. Yes ok she can win some of the matches as well. And then.. no. And axiom is doing good but... They are not playing GSL,SPL opponents But hey. Could be a booster for those teams. qxc is going to allkill KT. | ||
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eScaper-tsunami
Canada313 Posts
I don't think team depth and skill is too relevant in this. Prime was mopped last season, basically every round. They definitely aren't proleague champion contender but it shouldn't stop teams like Prime from entering if they can commit to the schedule. It'll be nice to see the exact skill gap between teams and players. With the different WCS regions, TLPD and Aigulac aren't too accurate in their assessment of skill gap, I believe what proleague is trying to do can help with this. Overall I can't see this as a bad thing. If you don't enjoy roflstomps, or lower level of play, you can always not watch it. We might even get more games per week! :D | ||
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Ocean_1004
Korea (South)37 Posts
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
Same with Acer, same with any other foreign team. I could see an Axiom partnership with say Acer (because their players are based in Korea), but I don't think it'd be successful at all. Anyone else I really can't see happening atm. And then there's also the level of competition obviously. An Axiom/Acer partnership wouldn't be strong enough to compete with the big teams. Innovation, MMA (maybe), Scarlett when she's there (maybe), Impact (maybe), and two players to try sniper builds (maybe) could maybe take games against teams like Prime, MVP, Samsung (maybe). But against Jin Air/CJ/KT and SKT? I just can't see it happen consistently enough to warrant the effort. Not after the EGTL disaster. That EGTL team had a stronger lineup than any combination of foreign teams could put together now, unless you were to merge every team's ace players and form a supergroup kinda team (--> Innovation, Jaedong, Taeja, HerO, Snute, Impact, Alicia, Crank, MMA, Scarlett, Stardust, San for example). And yet EGTL still failed awfully as we all remember, due to not focusing on Proleague as much as the rest, repeatedly having key players missing from the lineup, etc.etc. I doubt that any of that would be different for any foreign team if they entered Proleague now. It'd be even harder now than for EGTL back then. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 19 2014 17:15 eScaper-tsunami wrote: I don't think team depth and skill is too relevant in this. Prime was mopped last season, basically every round. They definitely aren't proleague champion contender but it shouldn't stop teams like Prime from entering if they can commit to the schedule. It'll be nice to see the exact skill gap between teams and players. With the different WCS regions, TLPD and Aigulac aren't too accurate in their assessment of skill gap, I believe what proleague is trying to do can help with this. Overall I can't see this as a bad thing. If you don't enjoy roflstomps, or lower level of play, you can always not watch it. We might even get more games per week! :D Yeah, I dont like those skill arguments either. First of, I think at least Acer and Liquid are on a level with last seasons Prime and could most likely challenge teams like MVP or STIM . And then you can always apply the argument that less teams is more quality. Still, I like my Bundesliga with noobteams such as Freiburg. | ||
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CyberVoid
Brazil165 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On August 19 2014 17:09 Big J wrote: I think the viewing experience could still be good for as long as the studios team up well in terms of production. But it would be very different I guess, if there was only one team at the place you watch from or sometimes even none. I think more teams would be cooler. Increase the uniqueness and importance of the "big matches", instead of the monthly KT vs SKT match. Come to think of it, I don't think any team will stand a chance unless they are "grounded" in Korea and focus solely on Proleague like their competitors do. If there is any addition to Proleague, I wish it would be a team who at least is able to put up a little fight. :-/ | ||
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LoneYoShi
France1348 Posts
On August 19 2014 17:29 DarkLordOlli wrote: The problem here is obviously that the focus of foreign teams would have to shift to Korea entirely for a whole Proleague season. Taeja said he wants to retire, HerO/Snute/Bunny/Mana/TLO have no reason at all to commit to staying in Korea for that long when TL and the players themselves are much better off competing at foreign events. Same with Acer, same with any other foreign team. I could see an Axiom partnership with say Acer (because their players are based in Korea), but I don't think it'd be successful at all. Anyone else I really can't see happening atm. And then there's also the level of competition obviously. An Axiom/Acer partnership wouldn't be strong enough to compete with the big teams. Innovation, MMA (maybe), Scarlett when she's there (maybe), Impact (maybe), and two players to try sniper builds (maybe) could maybe take games against teams like Prime, MVP, Samsung (maybe). But against Jin Air/CJ/KT and SKT? I just can't see it happen consistently enough to warrant the effort. Not after the EGTL disaster. That EGTL team had a stronger lineup than any combination of foreign teams could put together now, unless you were to merge every team's ace players and form a supergroup kinda team (--> Innovation, Jaedong, Taeja, HerO, Snute, Impact, Alicia, Crank, MMA, Scarlett, Stardust, San for example). And yet EGTL still failed awfully as we all remember, due to not focusing on Proleague as much as the rest, repeatedly having key players missing from the lineup, etc.etc. I doubt that any of that would be different for any foreign team if they entered Proleague now. It'd be even harder now than for EGTL back then. I'm sorry to self reference my own posts, but I tried to come up with a few possible solutions to that whole "commitment" issue as I think this would be the biggest issue. There could be ways to include motivated foreigners into ProLeague which I think could make it (somewhat) work ! | ||
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SpunXtain20
Australia554 Posts
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Gamlet
Ukraine336 Posts
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BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
Last season was amazing and i think if PL opens up for everyone it looses some of its special touch. Its very nice that you want to give other teams the possibility and even ask the fans, but i dont want another EGTL 2.0. Most of the players would probably still focus on foreign tournaments and play PL as their time allows. That cant go good. The foreign/all-star team should focus most of their efforts on PL and i dont think a lot of players would want to do that. IF you find a team that is willing to dedicate most of their time to PL, then yes, please invite them! Otherwise its just a "free-win" team and that sucks. You are really cool for even thinking about opening PL though! | ||
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SpunXtain20
Australia554 Posts
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Cool C
United States69 Posts
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Pino
1032 Posts
Even the idea of an All star team is not realistic. You would need a coach to help players prepare etc. Actually I would rather enjoy more a second star league, if Kespa is really wanting to invest into starcraft, and several stand alone tournaments like Kespa cup, or maybe an offseason tournament with a foreign team invited | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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dracularulez
Egypt9 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
Opening up to foreign teams doesn't seem a good idea due to the time of how long pro league is and how it does "effect" foreign tournaments. There is too much money involved for foreigners to play outside of Pro League. We had the same issue when EG TL joined up for SPL, they should never of finished as badly as they did but they were always travelling around to tournaments and didn't have the best players always there training hard with the coach. Unless a foreign team takes it seriously and takes 6 months out of there year to do it full 100% then i can't see it being a success. | ||
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Brian333
657 Posts
It didn't work when SC2 was much more popular in the foreign scene. I don't see how it will work now. | ||
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Jj_82
Swaziland419 Posts
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Quixotic_tv
Germany130 Posts
I do think inviting foreign teams is a good idea on paper. An All-Star team with e.g. JD, Taeja, MMA, Innovation, and MC would be thrilling. But it has to be made sure that that team has the same conditions as the established PL teams. They would need at least three things: - Preparation (some months I guess) - A capable coach. - An own house (sitting with a rival team in one house is pointless imo) Those aspects point to other requirements, like money. A coach has to be hired, a house has to be rent, players will have to miss (or even forfeit) a number of tournaments for the preparation. So I think it would be thrilling, but hard to accomplish. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On August 19 2014 17:34 Big J wrote: Yeah, I dont like those skill arguments either. First of, I think at least Acer and Liquid are on a level with last seasons Prime and could most likely challenge teams like MVP or STIM . And then you can always apply the argument that less teams is more quality. Still, I like my Bundesliga with noobteams such as Freiburg. Well i like the skill argument because a 2hour SPL with 2 No match isn't fun to watch. What's fun is tension, rivalties and good play. (for me of course). I believe TerrorPRIME could get some wins if ACER/Liquid was there. You can't challenge MVP anymore with their new recruits. STIM is... well it's ST+1 now. Startale will have their entire roster now too. And if Legend can pick Super, i doubt that even him who is not a regular player can destroy lesser teams. But maybe i'm wrong, maybe the foreign team will succeed to focus on korea. But i don't feel that's possible. Too many foreigner missing their home, having to get a new life. Some could do well and adapt. But all of them ? Not sure. The Koreans of the team could be like a fish in water though. About not watching low level of play, that's why i don't watch WCS . I know "low level" is harsh since those guys could beat me blindfolded. But you know what i mean | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
 TL, Axiom, Acer and YFW. These teams would be awesome to see in proleague in some form. Guys chill down a bit, the original Kespa post said this: On August 19 2014 17:17 Chuddinater wrote: We are toying with the idea of opening Proleague to the world. If we did open up Proleague next year to all teams which teams would you be most excited to watch? Do you think if we allowed foreign teams to enter would it lower the competitive level or increase it? They are not asking if you guys think it is financially possible for these teams to compete. They think it likely kespa can get them to compete, otherwise they would not mention this. You people probably don't know better than kespa the likelyhood of these teams playing in PL(unless you are TB). I don't understand this stubborn foolishness of saying "EG-TL, lol don't do it"..... Well Prime did way worse than EG-TL did, maybe koreans teams shouldn't be allowed because "obvisouly they suck because one korean team once failed". Stop this stupid idea that just because something failed once its impossible or pointless, if people like you guys ran the world nothing would ever be invented or improved because you would bloody well give up straight away. Focus on the actual question being asked do we want PL open for foreign teams, if they fail hard they probably won't stay in it for the long haul anyway and if they are serious about putting in effort for PL I'm sure they could show results! Foreign teams in PL would be awesome and I do not think it would lower the level of competiveness at all even though some teams might be weaker than others(which are already true today with korean teams). | ||
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Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 19 2014 17:35 JustPassingBy wrote: Come to think of it, I don't think any team will stand a chance unless they are "grounded" in Korea and focus solely on Proleague like their competitors do. If there is any addition to Proleague, I wish it would be a team who at least is able to put up a little fight. :-/ I think an Acer-lineup of INnoVation-MMA-Scarlett-Nerchio-Bly and a Liquid-lineup of Taeja-HerO-Snute-Bunny-TLO can take on something Startale like Life-Curious-Hack-Panic-Pet and whatever Prime and MVP may come up with for next season, not to mention whatever happens with IM. | ||
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Morrissey
Germany55 Posts
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
+ If Proleague is going to return to 10-12 teams, it's going to be glorious by its own. Also HerO is going to play with MVP, so it's not likely that TL will join. But INnoVation and Jaedong have to play where they belong to. | ||
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moochu
Australia374 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On August 19 2014 18:08 moochu wrote: If you want an underdog team people can cheer for bring back airforce ace! That is assuming airforce ace wants to have a team in the first place... <.< | ||
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Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
Problem is I dont see them staying in Korea in a team house and playing their hearts out for pro league. Skill wise I dont think they would do bad at all, I just dont see it happend. | ||
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algue
France1436 Posts
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Holloworb
Norway345 Posts
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Trasko
Sweden983 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On August 19 2014 17:56 Shuffleblade wrote: This season of PL was AWESOME. I really have high expectations of next season now TL, Axiom, Acer and YFW. These teams would be awesome to see in proleague in some form. Guys chill down a bit, the original Kespa post said this: They are not asking if you guys think it is financially possible for these teams to compete. They think it likely kespa can get them to compete, otherwise they would not mention this. You people probably don't know better than kespa the likelyhood of these teams playing in PL(unless you are TB). I don't understand this stubborn foolishness of saying "EG-TL, lol don't do it"..... Well Prime did way worse than EG-TL did, maybe koreans teams shouldn't be allowed because "obvisouly they suck because one korean team once failed". Stop this stupid idea that just because something failed once its impossible or pointless, if people like you guys ran the world nothing would ever be invented or improved because you would bloody well give up straight away. Focus on the actual question being asked do we want PL open for foreign teams, if they fail hard they probably won't stay in it for the long haul anyway and if they are serious about putting in effort for PL I'm sure they could show results! Foreign teams in PL would be awesome and I do not think it would lower the level of competiveness at all even though some teams might be weaker than others(which are already true today with korean teams). Well, if it is about which team we want to watch, I think we pretty much agree on any foreign team that is willing to move its foreign player to Korea and focus solely on Proleague. Because otherwise they will have no chance at all. :-/ | ||
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Liman
Serbia681 Posts
The only question is,can foreign teams afford themselves to play proleague and do they have enough players in korea.They will probably have to "merge" like we saw in past. | ||
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fromtenedos
Turkey20 Posts
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 19 2014 17:17 Chuddinater wrote: I hope everyone has enjoyed this season of Proleague as much as we have. There were plenty of exciting matches and the finals will be an event I will remember for the rest of my life, especially FlaSh kicking the soccer ball with the names of the SKT players into the crowd. Looking forward to the next season of Proleague we want to make it more exciting then it was this year. We are toying with the idea of opening Proleague to the world. If we did open up Proleague next year to all teams which teams would you be most excited to watch? Do you think if we allowed foreign teams to enter would it lower the competitive level or increase it? Well Axiom for me obviously. I loved AxiomAcer in GSTL and I would fucking love to have Axiom in Proleague. ATC has been awesome but nothing beats a live team league. | ||
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d_runk
124 Posts
1. The journeymen Koreans on foreign teams and new homes in other regions would only commit to competing in (and training for) Proleague if they would be able to make roughly the same amount of money when travelling to western tourneys. Even if it's a way bigger achievement to perform consistently in proleague most of these guys are past their competitive prime and want to rake in as much cash as they can before going to the military. That means that we, the viewers get much more entertaining games from them facing off against each other and strong foreigners, rather than getting roflstomped by KeSpa monsters each week. Yes, there are exceptions (Axiom has the smartest setup with the korean player base and TB-s beastly western media reach, notice that Acer also keep their players in KR). Teams who currently house their players outside KR (Taiwanese teams might be ok I think, no jet lag, shorter/cheaper travels), would have to invest in housing and staff around 2-3 months before start of season ideally to hit the ground running. 2. The business models of most foreign teams suit travelling around the western individual tournament circuit and getting the sponsors on as many broadcast minutes as possible. Even though Proleague is the equivalent of the GSL in terms of competition quality, it doesn't match up to Dreamhack or IEM in terms of viewership and that makes it an unsound decision business-wise to restrict your players to this single team competition. (I myself loved it when Taeja, JD, Snute, Huk, Stephano et al. gave Proleague a shot last year. I would also enjoy an all-star foreign/foreigner team trying to make an upset happen. Still, I think the gap is way too big skillwise and a huge gamble for western teams to basically deny players half of the western tournament season/cutting back on milestones offered to sponsors just for the sake of Proleague.) | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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Rustug
1488 Posts
My possible roster of players: JD; HUK; Teaja; HerO; Snute; TLO; Bunny; Mana; MMA; INnoVation; Scarlett; Alicia; CranK; Heart; Ryung; Impact; MC; Bomber; Life; MVP; Leenock; San; HyuN; Sacsri; RagnaroK; First; DongRaeGu; Polt; jjakji; Apocalypse; MajOr; StarDust; Daisy; VortiX; Jim; MacSed; TooDming; XiGua; XY. | ||
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RHoudini
Belgium3627 Posts
One possible way of organizing this would be to have a Proleague TV studio in Europe and/or the US, and to play with the Korean team at the usual location and the foreigner team in the European/US studio. Each studio with its live audience :-). A joint Proleague - ESL organization could do the trick! | ||
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Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
On August 19 2014 18:29 RHoudini wrote: I love the idea! One possible way of organizing this would be to have a Proleague TV studio in Europe and/or the US, and to play with the Korean team at the usual location and the foreigner team in the European/US studio. Each studio with its live audience :-). A joint Proleague - ESL organization could do the trick! Well this certainly sounds like a boring prodution "Players, please shake hands through the monitors" | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 19 2014 18:29 RHoudini wrote: I love the idea! One possible way of organizing this would be to have a Proleague TV studio in Europe and/or the US, and to play with the Korean team at the usual location and the foreigner team in the European/US studio. Each studio with its live audience :-). A joint Proleague - ESL organization could do the trick! No #LL1 (broodwar guys will know) but for you: Lan Latency over online play and we will never have such thing. Its not in the spirit of proleague. Cross-server lag will bring huge discussions and the value would actually drop. | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
. I know that Team Acer is part of Acer EU but hey, a brand is a brand and a logo is a logo. Besides, Proleague gets decent viewership from Europe because the timezone isn't bad here like it is for America. Another spanner in the works could be if Acer wants to do an Acer Teamstory Cup Season 4 and sees Proleague as a conflict with that. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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SuperHofmann
Italy1741 Posts
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 19 2014 11:54 Meckie wrote: Acer: Innovation, MMA and Scarlett. Axiom: Alicia, Heart, Ryung and Impact. Liquid: Snute, Bunny, HerO and TaeJa yoe Flash Wolves: San and Leenock iG: Jim. The vast majority of the above-mentioned are definitely capable of taking out the "weaker" KeSPA-players. That's not an assumption - that's a fact. You left out CranK. | ||
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Dingodile
4135 Posts
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RHoudini
Belgium3627 Posts
On August 19 2014 18:33 NarutO wrote: No #LL1 (broodwar guys will know) but for you: Lan Latency over online play and we will never have such thing. Its not in the spirit of proleague. Cross-server lag will bring huge discussions and the value would actually drop. Lag is part of SC2 life. "Huge discussions" are exactly what is needed. It's the main reason why FIFA doesn't want video assistance in football. | ||
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Zprit
92 Posts
TL can't do it, with Taeja quitting after this year and he doesn't seem interested in it anyway so they have only a bunch of (top notch) foreigners which doesn't quite cut it still, EG has Jaedong and... Acer might do it but not alone. Chinese or Taiwanese teams might pull it of as well if they would want to. | ||
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LoneYoShi
France1348 Posts
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 19 2014 12:53 dyDrawer wrote: I'm not really a big fan of the idea. No offense to any foreign fans, but I think most if not all foreign teams will get COMPLETELY STOMPED by KeSPA teams. We want to see close contests, not one-sided slaughters. Even the "foreign" Koreans might not be able to stop the might of these faceless KeSPA giants. The recent KeSPA cup should give us a pretty good idea: foreign fan favs like TaeJa, Jaedong, Polt, HerO and HyuN fell early and fell hard. TaeJa's 0-2 loss to Action, Jaedong's 0-2 loss to DeParture, Polt's 0-2 loss to Trust are particularly alarming, as these are often considered some of the best foreign Koreans and aces of their respective teams, and all 3 lost 0-2 to bench players on KeSPA teams. Whether that was due to lag or form issues, we don't know, but surely this isn't a good sign. Even if an international all-star team is formed, there is this huge issue with organization and coaching. Proleague is heavily about preparation. Just by having a bunch of really good players isn't enough (@SKT1 from 2013 season). With the foreign players coming and going, leaving and going back to Korea for WCS and what not, I really can't see an all star team do well. What I think might be viable, is work with StarTale, which is sort of one of a kind now: not belonging to KeSPA but a Korean team from head to toe. It has some pretty good players left, like Curious and Life. I know they're short on funds, but if KeSPA can help with securing some good loans and alliances (Acer comes to mind, INnoVation is playing in GSL anyway), this could be the beginning of something great. TaeJa beat Zest 3-0, just saying. | ||
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scnrfrknd
Ghana1 Post
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Magnet
United States77 Posts
I'm not sure how exactly this would be done, and it's obviously a good idea on paper and as a concept, I just don't see it really being that successful unless we start talking about a bunch of hybrid teams that still consist of the Korean components of them (YFW + Acer + Axiom for example), which would start getting a little confusing. Team leagues have always been players, coaches, etc all uniting because they want to win so badly as a team. I can't imagine a hybrid team coming in and posing any sort of challenge to T1 or KT, since they are so invested in winning proleague. Honestly, my initial reaction tells me that it only would work with Kespa teams, like we've seen in the past (and of course Startale replacing IM), but I don't know. I'm very skeptical and I'd have to see a bigger plan put into place for foreign teams and players to start making sense. If we're still talking about Kespa teams but having the playoffs or finals somewhere else in the world, then I see it making a little more sense. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
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SuperHofmann
Italy1741 Posts
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LeviathanDK
Denmark87 Posts
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
I would like a select few to go, I don't think most of the best foreigners are quite at Proleague level apart from a select few, I would think that a "allstar" team would be impossible? People keep mentioning about whole teams like Myi coming to Korea with mostly korean players sort of defeats the point of a foreign team entering the koreans that left went because they feel they can do better elsewhere I'm sure they don't want to go back into that environment. TL;DR Allstar team of community or result picked foreigners comprising a team yes! Teams that are foreign owned and mostly comprised of koreans coming back to play proleague no. Unless that team has Jaedong, but that's not going to happen based on how he feels about that all. | ||
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bananashell
Sweden18 Posts
On August 19 2014 10:51 NFxJehuty wrote: I think you should try to invite a 'All star' team, made up of all the best foreign team players, that way you could take players like jaedong on american team and get him to play vs flash finally!! I think this would be the most viable solution. Or perhaps as a special pre-season. As someone else put it; It might however lower the skill but increase the viewership. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
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Goibon
New Zealand8185 Posts
More openness is good. That was the whole point of the Destiny criticism. If Kespa is willing and able to take even a tiny risk then then that's wonderful and benefits everyone. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 19 2014 18:43 RHoudini wrote: Lag is part of SC2 life. "Huge discussions" are exactly what is needed. It's the main reason why FIFA doesn't want video assistance in football. What about we dont allow it to be cross server to have those discussions. Simply point out there would be a chance to it like that with better latency. You will still have the discussion without destroying the tournament. because while we need discussions we also need good proleague and not cross server only won due to lag proleague | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 19 2014 16:53 Sakkreth wrote: Axiom-Acer EG-TL Axiom-Acer: INnovation +++ MMA ++ Scarlett ++ Nerchio + Bly Paranoid Alicia ++ Crank ++ Heart ++ Ryung ++ Impact ++ EG-TL: Jaedong +++ HuK + Suppy Xenocider Demuslim TaeJa +++ HerO +++ Bunny ++ Snute ++ TLO + MaNa + Ret + One plus: Capable of winning some maps Two pluses: Capable of being in the lineup successfully constantly winning 50%+ matches Three pluses: Capable to be among top ranked players in proleague. Both teams would be capable to compete, EGTL are more top heavy, but Axiom-Acer is more balanced, Axiom alone brings pretty muc hviable lineup, acer adds Ace in InNoVation and few other capable players, but mostly substitutes except for MMA. EGTL would have 3 monster players and 2 arguably best foreigners at this point who are more than capable of taking some maps in proleague making it scary 5 player lineup. If AxiomAcer were to partner up again they'd probably leave Nerchio, ParanOid and Bly like last time. Not enough quality and more importantly not enough room in the Axiom teamhouse. | ||
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DreamOen
Spain1400 Posts
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REyeM
2674 Posts
My favorites are: Axiom + INnoVation iG YWF and Wayi. Edit: Aaand JD in any shape or form. | ||
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Jono7272
United Kingdom6330 Posts
Also, can't see TL committing to near full time Korea. | ||
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Khai
Australia551 Posts
Would be nice to see an allstar foreign team of sorts, EG/TL was a great idea, just too bad they couldn't concentrate on Proleague at a time when Kespa teams are weakest (right after transition to SC2). Right now whichever foreign team invited will finish last for sure, but an all star team might make things interesting. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
A duknow team with MC and his gang would be fun too. Or... Startale | ||
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Radicalness
United States271 Posts
1. TaeJa, the best player on the team, hardly played at all because of his wrists. 2. JD was still really new to sc2 and that was before he really took off in the game (of course he's been a little down lately) 3. Even Revival and Oz seemed to get considerably better after PL (only, again, to fall off recently) 4. It could have been worse ... I'd love to see some sort of combined foreign team in PL again. As has been said, the best of Axiom, Acer, TL and EGJD would probably be a fairly decent team. | ||
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Ammanas
Slovakia2166 Posts
On August 19 2014 19:16 Radicalness wrote: Seeing a lot of hate for EGTL. A couple things about the EGTL team: 1. TaeJa, the best player on the team, hardly played at all because of his wrists. 2. JD was still really new to sc2 and that was before he really took off in the game (of course he's been a little down lately) 3. Even Revival and Oz seemed to get considerably better after PL (only, again, to fall off recently) 4. It could have been worse ... I'd love to see some sort of combined foreign team in PL again. As has been said, the best of Axiom, Acer, TL and EGJD would probably be a fairly decent team. They would be fairly decent players, not decent team. The biggest issue with Proleague is not necessarily skill of the players involved (although arguably it is the highest from most of the leagues), but the commitment. I say bring anyone, I don't really care, even teams like Root - but make sure they are committed to Proleague above all else. If that will be true, they can bring all foreign lineup and they will be able to take games, maybe even matches. If not, then they do not add anything to the league and are useless to have around - they would only disappoint their fans and lower the quality of the most prestigious team league in the world. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On August 19 2014 18:46 LoneYoShi wrote: Also, people are forgetting mYi and Millenium here ! ForGG making his glorious return to ProLeague after years of baguettes, VortiX, (I would love to see Dayshi, but he's probably not at the required level), and StarDust, Jjakji returning to Korea, Sacsri and all. Could be a sick story as well ! I won't allow ForGG to leave Europe without having won WCS Europe, or at least coming close to it! :'( | ||
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NervO
Netherlands511 Posts
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
1) Remember how Impact mentioned how Jaedong has always been his idol in 'State of Play'? I can't think of a better practice partner to help Impact's development as a player apart from perhaps Soulkey, and well he's SKT1 so completely unavailable. 2) KeSPA would fucking love to have Jaedong back in Proleague 3) Jaedong would definitely improve in competing in Proleague - it was good for him in 2013 but he dropped off this year - so it would benefit EG in this way to have their ace back on top form. 4) Axiom only have five players. You need at least six in Proleague to be able to field a full roster. A second Zerg is what would balance the team most. 5) Jaedong has a lot of foreign supporters so that would help Axiom and EG in that they would get a boost in foreign viewers for their foreign sponsors. 6) Jaedong still has a big Korean fan base from his Brood War days so it the team would be supported in Korea too. 7) Flash vs Jaedong I reckon a line-up of Impact, Jaedong, Ryung, Heat, Alicia and CranK would be play-off contenders. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
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SuperHofmann
Italy1741 Posts
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rotta
5589 Posts
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
Not sure how KeSPA capitalises on having a massive Chinese audience though so maybe it's more trouble than it's worth. And Chinese players and teams have their own scene so maybe wouldn't even want to participate anyway. I just think that if KeSPA is looking to expand Proleague beyond Korea then a scene which had 132,000 viewers for their final is not to be scoffed at. | ||
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Nine Gates
Finland198 Posts
On August 19 2014 16:53 Sakkreth wrote: This is way way way too optimistic. You're giving both teams at least 5 players capable of constantly playing and holding a 50% winrate. Looking at the 2014 season statistics, the only team that good is SKT. KT and JAGW have 4, CJ, SGK, MVP have 2, IM has 1, Prime has no players with a 50%+ winrate. A team as good as you're making EG-TL and AXA to be would get top 2 in the regular season by necessity. Take one plus from everyone, and the result will be far more accurate.Axiom-Acer EG-TL Axiom-Acer: INnovation +++ MMA ++ Scarlett ++ Nerchio + Bly Paranoid Alicia ++ Crank ++ Heart ++ Ryung ++ Impact ++ EG-TL: Jaedong +++ HuK + Suppy Xenocider Demuslim TaeJa +++ HerO +++ Bunny ++ Snute ++ TLO + MaNa + Ret + One plus: Capable of winning some maps Two pluses: Capable of being in the lineup successfully constantly winning 50%+ matches Three pluses: Capable to be among top ranked players in proleague. Both teams would be capable to compete, EGTL are more top heavy, but Axiom-Acer is more balanced, Axiom alone brings pretty muc hviable lineup, acer adds Ace in InNoVation and few other capable players, but mostly substitutes except for MMA. EGTL would have 3 monster players and 2 arguably best foreigners at this point who are more than capable of taking some maps in proleague making it scary 5 player lineup. I dont think there's a single combination of non-Kespa players that could get into the top 5 of a Proleague season. But when it comes to a realistic chance to get 6th place, using Axiom's Korean infrastructure and reinforcing the team with some Code S/A players (such as Innovation) and some WCS AM/KR players that would return to GSL (such as Jaedong) would be the best plan. I think the best way to attract attention is an underdog team that has a chance. | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 19 2014 19:49 Nine Gates wrote: This is way way way too optimistic. You're giving both teams at least 5 players capable of constantly playing and holding a 50% winrate. Looking at the 2014 season statistics, the only team that good is SKT. KT and JAGW have 4, CJ, SGK, MVP have 2, IM has 1, Prime has no players with a 50%+ winrate. A team as good as you're making EG-TL and AXA to be would get top 2 in the regular season by necessity. Take one plus from everyone, and the result will be far more accurate. I dont think there's a single combination of non-Kespa players that could get into the top 5 of a Proleague season. But when it comes to a realistic chance to get 6th place, using Axiom's Korean infrastructure and reinforcing the team with some Code S/A players (such as Innovation) and some WCS AM/KR players that would return to GSL (such as Jaedong) would be the best plan. I think the best way to attract attention is an underdog team that has a chance. Note that he says "capable" of winning 50% of matches. These players are all capable of winning at least half their matches, doesn't mean they all will. Everyone on KT Rolster is capable of winning half their matches, and this also applies to CJ Entus, Jin Air and Samsung Galaxy as well. When you are using the word 'capable' you are assessing a player on paper. Of course real actual performance does not and will not always reflect this objective assessment because form comes into it. Some players exceed expectations and some players fall short of them. Doesn't mean his assessment is incorrect. I think all of those players that he mentioned are indeed capable of winning half their matches. | ||
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ProjectZeek
Sweden11 Posts
I think that proleague should stay away from the "lesser" teams like Mousesports, Vega squadron, root and such. We still want the very best players! | ||
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extinctosaurus
101 Posts
I'd also love to see Chinese and Taiwanese players like Xigua and Sen participate! But like everyone else mentioned, it would be pretty tough unless there was a dedicated teamhouse and coach grounded in Korea. The team synergy is important... and also players would have to split their time practicing (between individual tournaments and Proleague). I think there are plenty of foreign players who can compete with Kespa teams but without the "proper" environment they probably won't perform as well. | ||
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Henulol
Finland17 Posts
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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jax1492
United States1632 Posts
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Gullis
Sweden740 Posts
Axiom+ Acer Axoim provide a solid ground and sprinkled with Innovation, Scarlett and MMA I think they provide some decent competition. Axiom+TL I don't see Taeja doing this since he does not seem very motivated. But Hero seems motivated and Snute and Bunny is good enough however it would be very though on them to move to korea etc... The last possibility. With all the reconstruction of teams currently there are a bunch of good free agents that could spice things up. | ||
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jackslater
Russian Federation604 Posts
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FreDMouL
France59 Posts
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GwubbiL
Finland18 Posts
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ninjamyst
United States1903 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
Having already stated my opinion, I'd also like to add something about how eSports in Korea have sort of 'loosened up' in the past few years, haven't they? No OSL since last august's finals, KeSPA opening up to all teams, back in the days of BW it seemed a bit more strict and more well organized. And the rise of the all-present League and moba genre... | ||
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riyanme
Philippines940 Posts
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
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hfsrj
Germany166 Posts
Anyway, I grew to love the proleague map format for the creativity it brings to match preparation. I don't think this should be sacrificed to ease the path for foreign teams. I really enjoy proleague as much as GSL now (and I'm a die Hard gsl fan). I couldn't care less if teams are Korean or foreign, I just want to see great games, with crazy tailored strategies a la Bbyong and TY. I'm not sure that foreign teams can bring this, tbh. We saw that EGTL, despite Coach Park, didn't have the proleague mentality that involves extreme game preparation, so I'm not sure I love this move. | ||
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Starecat
938 Posts
You can never argue with kespo fanboys when a result they want shows up any result before that is invalid and the "players weren't playing Code V that day!1" excuse takes place. My guess to foreigners results was the map pool, those qualifiers used a custom map and maps that are not being used anymore and the KeSPA players had a lot of experience on those maps from the Proleague. On August 19 2014 21:02 ZiggyPG wrote: back in the days of BW it seemed a bit more strict and more well organized. Asshole=good? | ||
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Rustug
1488 Posts
In other words: How does a Players and/or Team make money? Do they get payed for participating, or do they get payed for winning matches or rounds? Or are they only getting payed when they win the whole thing? | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
What will mainly happen (if anything happens at all): korean players already living in Korea joining Proleague | ||
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
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SharpFlex
Germany23 Posts
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Tngabor
Serbia60 Posts
The idea is to have a stable line-up. We all know what happens when there's no stable line-up... *cough-cough* EG-TL. So basically MMA, INno, HerO and TaeJa (or Snute maybe), and then they could have "snipers" like Bunny or Scarlett. I would love to see Bunny going to Korea. Make it happen guys : ))) | ||
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Tngabor
Serbia60 Posts
On August 19 2014 20:15 Lorning wrote: As long as Prime is in it, I don't care Amen brother! | ||
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Darrkhan
Finland1236 Posts
+ AxiomAcer!!! pls kespa | ||
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LoneYoShi
France1348 Posts
Our only job is this: YES PLEASE, MAKE IT HAPPEN SOMEHOW ! :D I'd love to see top players compete in SPL and show us amazing games. Players like JD, Snute, Bomber, Innovation, MMA, MC, Jjakji, StarDust, Welmu, Vortix, ForGG, TLO, Polt, Scarlett, Major, etc playing in SPL would be amazing ! | ||
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Redkeekee
21 Posts
Edit: I also love watching several of the players in MyInsanity. | ||
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cortesmaltose
France8 Posts
I don't see foreign teams doing good in Proleague if their players are not ready to live and train in Korea. And I don't think most of them are ready for that at the moment... | ||
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damoonwolf
France98 Posts
If that shoul be a foreign team, my choice will be Axiom-Acer with alliance with some other team like Liquid or Yoe Flash Wolves. I think no other can perform not too bad. Of course the better should be a real new Kespa team suported by SpoTV. Like MBCGame Hero and OGN Sparkyz... Or suported by other group, don't care about this. Or SC2 team in NaJin of course. | ||
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DeadByDawn
United Kingdom476 Posts
If it's a combined EG/Axiom/Acer/RedBull team would people's team loyalties actually play a part in their interest? But I would think that most foreign fans have their Korean favourites anyway. I subscribe to PL almost solely to watch Maru play. I subscribed to each GSL season once Maru reached Ro8 - now I have a yearly subscription as Maru seems like a shoe-in for Ro8. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
TLDR: Kespa pls don't do that!!! Instead u guys should focus on getting solid sponsoriship for your teams!!! | ||
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Liliputin
Czech Republic458 Posts
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Vete
Germany190 Posts
If Kespa opens his gates for foreigners then It could decrease the average ''skill'' level because they don't have a coach/right mindset and don't use the Proleague metagame. Of course it will increase the viewership but at which cost.. | ||
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damoonwolf
France98 Posts
On August 19 2014 21:37 cortesmaltose wrote: I don't see foreign teams doing good in Proleague if their players are not ready to live and train in Korea. And I don't think most of them are ready for that at the moment... I totally agree with this. Also a team, need to have player who are fully motivated by play PL, and who are OK for play few foreign tournament during the PL's time. No more story like Taeja in EGTL. | ||
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
1 NA Quali 1 EU Quali 1 China Quali 1 Global Quali So eventually we gonna have 12 teams in SPL, the strongest and most popular players included. Also there should be some WCS rewards for SPL in future. | ||
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damoonwolf
France98 Posts
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On August 19 2014 21:43 Liliputin wrote: what about a team of players who are under GEM? (YoDa, MC, First, Mvp...) Good idea. GEM would be a playoff caliber team, especially if Hyunn would still play for them. | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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NyanOverlord
Russian Federation36 Posts
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Rustug
1488 Posts
They were a new team in ProLeague. Proleague is really hard. Them quitting after one season was a bit of a disappointment. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On August 19 2014 21:54 Rustug wrote: EG-TL wasn't an epic fail. They were a new team in ProLeague. Proleague is really hard. Them quitting after one season was a bit of a disappointment. Considering what was expected from team with people destroying in 2012 and team, which got even more stable Koreans, it was huge flop. On August 19 2014 21:53 NyanOverlord wrote: Adding teams in collaboration with each other, something like Axiom-Acer and EG-TL, would be pretty cool. I dont think that without collaboration foreign teams have chances to play good, maybe with exception of TL. TaeJa can't win everything alone, and outside of Snute, i don't think that anyone will join him in Korea. And HerO is signed to play with MVP next season already. | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On August 19 2014 21:21 Tngabor wrote: To be honest i would like to see TL + Acer the most. The idea is to have a stable line-up. We all know what happens when there's no stable line-up... *cough-cough* EG-TL. So basically MMA, INno, HerO and TaeJa (or Snute maybe), and then they could have "snipers" like Bunny or Scarlett. I would love to see Bunny going to Korea. Make it happen guys : ))) Bad idea. Ruins a good rivalry (see EG-TL). Don't just throw teams together, consider the long term images of the teams | ||
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lordsaul
13 Posts
I would dearly love to see Axiom-Acer in action in SPL. They seem to have the correct "team" mentality. EG-TL was a collection of good individuals, but reading what Coach Park said about them as a unit, they just were not prepared for the practice regime. As far as I can see though, Blizzard/WCS/Kespa would need to arrange some very accommodating timing of events. Thinking about it, I can see how you might construct an "World Allstars" team on a round by round basis. While the allstars team might be very large, you would only need a small group of them housed in Korea for a single round. After each round the allstars team would swap out those returning home (contractually planned at the beginning of the entire season of course). If there was enough co-ordination between Blizzard/Kespa it might be possible to allow the Allstars to compete alternately in a code A/S or WCS Europe/America depending on where that member of the team resides that round. Assuming that the rules could be formed in a way that did not lead to abuse of course. | ||
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damoonwolf
France98 Posts
On August 19 2014 21:54 Rustug wrote: EG-TL wasn't an epic fail. They were a new team in ProLeague. Proleague is really hard. Them quitting after one season was a bit of a disappointment. Of course you're right, PL is really hard. But many people thinked they will performed so better. Also i thinks that was a fail not only because the poor result. But also because foreign players are leave the team quickly, and some korean player who was in this team don't really wanted play PL. They just wanted play foreign tounament, so this team had a poor motivational (read the Coach Park interwiew about EGTL on this site). The idea of All-star foreign players and All-star foreign team's koreans alliance was fail hard. Because of lack of motivation by these player, and lack of skill too. | ||
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Zprit
92 Posts
On August 19 2014 21:53 NyanOverlord wrote: Adding teams in collaboration with each other, something like Axiom-Acer and EG-TL, would be pretty cool. I dont think that without collaboration foreign teams have chances to play good, maybe with exception of TL. Taeja won't do proleague anyway since he did not like it last time and he's only one dude, Axiom is probably the best shot maybe with a merc. They are a pretty strong team and actually have a rather rounded rooster unlike most other foreign teams that have one or two stars. Acer have 3 players and is probably the most stacked team along with TL who have two of the best foreigners who probably are on par with the lesser kespa koreans on good days and after a while in a teamhouse. All foreign teams are focused on foreign tournaments and stuff though and that doesn't blend well with proleague. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
I'd like to see Team Liquid and Axiom in Proleague, personally. | ||
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hfsrj
Germany166 Posts
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JazVM
Germany1196 Posts
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KonanTenshi
Sweden210 Posts
if they open up I'd want a picky choosing on whose to play | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
. So I am all for this, but don't see many foreign teams able to pull it off.We will see I guess, definitely exciting news! | ||
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On August 19 2014 21:50 Salient wrote: Good idea. GEM would be a playoff caliber team, especially if Hyunn would still play for them. Didn't the GEM team fail to qualify for ATC? | ||
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LoneYoShi
France1348 Posts
On August 19 2014 22:15 Darkhorse wrote: Didn't the GEM team fail to qualify for ATC? ATC confirmed higher level than SPL. | ||
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jakethesnake
Canada4948 Posts
On August 19 2014 22:15 Darkhorse wrote: Didn't the GEM team fail to qualify for ATC? Lost to team Welmu iirc. Plus all the GEM players would have to move back to Korea making it difficult to participate in WCS AM/EU. I'm not sure that the players would want to do that. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On August 19 2014 19:06 Crot4le wrote: If AxiomAcer were to partner up again they'd probably leave Nerchio, ParanOid and Bly like last time. Not enough quality and more importantly not enough room in the Axiom teamhouse. Not enough qualitiy lol. Nerchio is a full time student, and only plays as much as is fun. He is one of the most talented players out there, but simply would never have an interest in playing proleague in korea or even full time. | ||
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Boucot
France15997 Posts
So if the WCS format doesn't change and stays as heavy as it is right now, the only way we could see Liquid, Millenium, mouz, mYi players in Proleague would be for standalone events (like Race Wars tournament). I think one example would be a showmatch between the top 5 players of Proleague vs the top 5 players of ATC. Maru, herO, sOs, Flash, Rain vs INnoVation, Starbuck, Dayshi, jjakji, Jaedong would be fun. | ||
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ReboundEU
508 Posts
Costs are to high for teams/people to go there and actively train for the korean specific SC formats...the format is unique compared to the rest of the world events and getting the $$ is less likely compared to just participating in other world class competitions. Less payment but more regular. It would literally transform into a GSL clone.... a huge competition that is one of the best on the planet but because of X factors the number of foreign teams that can financially support participating in them is reduced to just a handful and most likely can't support it long therm. I would love to see both Pro League and GSL get filled with foreigners for once. Would triple their value in my eyes. | ||
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phil.ipp
Austria1067 Posts
the kespa teams in proleague deny their players to go to foreign events, thats why they can concentrate on proleague -> thats why they are good a foreign team wouldnt/couldnt do that, none of the koreans and foreigners on foreign teams care about playing a huge amount of games in korea against hard competition with almost no chance of making it into the money ranks. so they will always favour european and us tournaments - rightfully so -> cause progaming means you make a living from it. so what it essentially means is you can choose 1. foreign team takes proleague seriously -> less foreign koreans and foreigners at foreign tournaments 2. no forein teams in proleague -> you have still a insanly good teamleague but also good tournaments i like number 2 | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
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phil.ipp
Austria1067 Posts
now its totally different, outside of korea is a lot more going on than in korea - so the idea to lock a team and its players down for an 8 month teamleague ist just not going to work. | ||
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Kimb3r
Germany744 Posts
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vult
United States9400 Posts
There and train and have a competitive environment. Obviously there would be issues with WCS regions though. Not too sure. It seems like most international teams (with Korean and foreign players alike) mostly play outside of Korea (minus players like Innovation, Impact and Leenock). Not sure how it would work out. Axiom Acer seems like the only plausible option for Proleague, but would have to deal with players traveling a lot. Who knows. | ||
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esdf
Croatia736 Posts
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dgwow
Canada1024 Posts
an all star team of players that can be constantly replaced if they want to leave Korea (making no fixed roster) | ||
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Yhamm
France7248 Posts
On August 19 2014 22:50 esdf wrote: i'd love to see dear, inno and jd back in proleague. so let's go mouz, acer & eg! hah, Dear left mousesports months ago and joined Samsung Galaxy. You will see him in Proleague next season | ||
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Skynx
Turkey7150 Posts
Not saying I don't like the idea tho, hope some team can make it | ||
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REyeM
2674 Posts
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TheSayo182
Italy243 Posts
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Chylvain
France43 Posts
- they choose the best teams - they don't make stupid mix teams like 2 EG + 2 ACER + 2 TL, etc (don't get it sorry) | ||
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Tibone
France10 Posts
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Cluster__
United States328 Posts
Snute, Vortix, Bunny, Major, Scarlett, Welmu | ||
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StarVe
Germany13591 Posts
On August 19 2014 23:15 Cluster__ wrote: new "allstar" team specifically for proleague called "Foreign Hope" Snute, Vortix, Bunny, Major, Scarlett, Welmu You really just want to literally see the Foreign Hope die, don't ya? | ||
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
On August 19 2014 23:15 Cluster__ wrote: new "allstar" team specifically for proleague called "Foreign Hope" Snute, Vortix, Bunny, Major, Scarlett, Welmu Foreigners United 2.0 ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/heyoka/GSTL/FUnited.png) | ||
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Mattidute
Netherlands232 Posts
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
Even seeing EG-TL crash and burn was hype as shit. | ||
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DreamR
United Kingdom168 Posts
On August 19 2014 23:18 StarVe wrote: You really just want to literally see the Foreign Hope die, don't ya? lmao. i actually lost it hahaha | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 19 2014 21:27 LoneYoShi wrote: It's funny how the initial question was "would you like to see foreign teams compete in SPL ?" and everyone is answering "do you think it is possible for foreign teams to compete in SPL ?". Guys, as fans it's not our job to think on the "how" and the "why", that's the job of the team and league managers and inside people (even if it's interesting to brainstorm on these kind of questions). Our only job is this: YES PLEASE, MAKE IT HAPPEN SOMEHOW ! :D I'd love to see top players compete in SPL and show us amazing games. Players like JD, Snute, Bomber, Innovation, MMA, MC, Jjakji, StarDust, Welmu, Vortix, ForGG, TLO, Polt, Scarlett, Major, etc playing in SPL would be amazing ! Regarding MajOr, I have to say that although ROOT has definitely strengthened recently with the addition of MajOr and SuperNova, I still don't think they have enough quality to be anywhere near competitive in Proleague yet. Besides, they have a massive frat house in Florida so I can't see them relocating to Korea any time soon. Regarding ForGG, VortiX and you might as well throw Dayshi in there because he's been superb as of late too, I would rank Millenium as more likely than a lot of foreign teams, but even then it's a massive outside shot. Millenium are strong, they seem to always finish solidly mid-table in ATC. But would they be competitive in Proleague? Probably not. Would they even want to compete in Proleague? Again, probably not. Polt and Jaedong I can see more as mercenaries if they are to compete in Proleague. Snute and TLO maybe might come over if Team Liquid compete. It would be a massive risk for TL and I reckon they'd only do it with a partnership like they did last time. Scarlett, MMA and INnoVation I see most likely playing through a rekindled AxiomAcer partnership. I think Team Acer is the foreign team that is most likely to want to compete in Proleague. If they do want to, then whether they go it alone or in a partnership who knows? That leaves Bomber. Bomber left StarTale to want to compete in foreign tournament scene for Red Bull. If he is to return for Proleague then I think the most likely route there is as a mercenary for StarTale. | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
Also, I think there's only one or two teams able to compete, and that'd be the Axiom/Acer combo. Team Liquid comes close, but I think all they could do is fight the weaker teams like Prime or MVP (who probably won't be that weak next season) for the last place. Snute, Taeja and HerO might be Proleague material, even Bunny might be able to grab some kills if he gets the time to adapt to the environment, but after that? Mana in Proleague? I really like that guy, but I do not think that he'll be able to achieve much there. So, who's left? EG? Lol. Jaedong can't carry since it's not allkill. Also, Jaedong is declining since a good while, and I really hope to see him depart from EG very soon. He showed amazing skill at times, but not coming close to eg. Flash's level (and remember, Flash has yet to fight to be a consistent Code S terran, he's not that sick at all in individual leagues). Next up would be mYi. They're concentrating on sending their players to tournaments a lot, just having established a teamhouse located in Europe. Why would they give up that working business model? TB already told about Axiom's problems in engaging Proleague. Millenium, with all due respect, do not have the depth or the skill in their roster to go for it. Acer might be able to do it, though I do not think that they have players that could deal with Proleague besides Innovation, MMA and maybe Scarlett. Sorry, Artur. Unless KeSPA really pushes the issue with a lot of support, it won't happen. This "opening to the world" seems more like a thing to give KeSPA exposure, leaving foreign teams hold the baby since they will probably be declining. On the other hand, one could say that KeSPA really tries to open, giving foreign teams the opportunity to play in Proleague and thus pushing their reputation up. Two ways to see things, I tend to go with the 2nd, but I'm not sure yet. Then again - we saw what happened to EGTL after a year of Proleague participation. Didn't go too well. A foreign team would need one season to experience how playing Proleague in general is. Few people (on foreign) have experiences with such a long-lasting and preparation-heavy teamleague. So, in the 2nd season, a team could start to take care of its flaws, slowly improving, deepening their roster, etc.pp - and in the 3rd season, that team might go for higher targets: instead of "we do not want to finish last", you could go for "we want to be 5th, and maybe we can even qualify for the playoffs as 4th". The establishment of a truely foreign team in a korean Proleague environment seems impossible to me anyways. The skill gap is just too huge. Can't imagine HasuObs beating herO, or Dayshi beating soO, or Vortix beating TY. Can't think of Heromarine beating Rain. How should Welmu go up against Soulkey? How would Scarlett do against TRUE? Bunny would probably get rekt by Flash. Oh, did I mention Maru already, or sOs? Can you think of Nerchio beating Zest? I can't. I do not want to say "lol foreigners bad", I really love some (and like most, and hate few) of them. There's no better thing than the Korean vs. Foreigner story line (imagine Sjow beating Life! Shivers!). But - even foreign koreans will have it hard. | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 19 2014 22:22 Musicus wrote: Not enough qualitiy lol. Nerchio is a full time student, and only plays as much as is fun. He is one of the most talented players out there, but simply would never have an interest in playing proleague in korea or even full time. However valid your reason for it is, the reality is that Nerchio, Bly and ParanOid are not on the same level as MMA, INnoVation and Scarlett and that only the latter three would be good enough for Proleague. I don't really think that's a controversial statement to make. | ||
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[OGN]Remmy
United States1206 Posts
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dgwow
Canada1024 Posts
An interesting option would be for Kespa to help establish a North American proleague and have that link to the Korean proleague, with the top teams of each league going into a playoffs in korea for the finals | ||
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virpi
Germany3598 Posts
When it comes to cooperations between teams, Axiom-Acer comes to mind immediately, but also smaller teams like myInsanity and Millenium maybe could put together a decent line-up. EG and TL surely would be a nice addition, too, but with their previous experiences in proleague, I doubt that they would join with a huge roster again. You also have to take into consideration that their teams are not as big as they used to be. I would like to see one or two "western" teams and one additional asian team, preferrably a Taiwanese team. (yoeFW?) Cool initiative! | ||
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C0howda
1 Post
Would these foreign teams be governed as strictly as current Kespa teams are? Does this mean players like Scarlett and Innovation will see significantly less foreign tournaments? We all want to see Innovation vs Flash/SoulKey or Flash vs Jaedong again. For me though, I think it comes with a very high risk of NOT seeing these players at Dreamhacks or Home Story Cups or Red Bull Battlegrouds and I think that risk is too high. Pro League is a huge commitment and none of us want our favorite foreign teams to half ass it. As someone who lives on the East Coast US, I can't watch Pro League live. I can watch just about any other Foreign Tournament live which gives me the best chance to catch my favorite non-Kespa players. | ||
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
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vesicular
United States1310 Posts
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SireSandman
Canada1 Post
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NaboliC
Sweden130 Posts
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Doomhunter
United States12 Posts
This is a perfect world scenario but I think expanding to 12 teams (8 current with ST replacing IM) adding 4 team, Axiom-Acer, Korean Foreign All-Stars, European All-Stars, and either IG or YF. The key to the entire idea though is we want committed teams that are going to train full time, be compensated properly for that time and dedicated to pro-league. I think a good way to do this would be to keep the schedule at 4 matches per night and put in built in bye weeks instead of bye games so that the weekend of dreamhack for example the European's and Korean All-Stars can all go to the foreign tournament, still fulfill their obligation to their current teams, and be back the next week to prep for pro-league. This would obviously take careful planning and a financial commitment from Kespa to do it the correct way. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
On August 19 2014 11:00 looknohands119 wrote: Obviously the foreign teams who are most qualified are Evil Geniuses, TeamLiquid, Acer, Axiom, and some of the big Chinese/Taiwanese teams. While in the short term, opening Proleague up might slightly decrease the average skill level, I think that it will dramatically increase it in the long-term. Think of it as an investment into developing "new blood" that will bring more innovation to drive progress in the Korean scene and that will draw more money and sponsorship by expanding Proleague's appeal outside of Korea. Edit: Who knows, maybe it would be incentive enough for some established teams from other games (LoL, DOTA2, CS:GO, etc...) to create SC2 squads or even for new non-Korean teams to form. Edit #2: Also, why the hell is everyone assuming that KeSPA wouldn't help reduce the financial barrier. Seems like them even considering opening things up marks a very large attitude shift from KeSPA compared to when EG-TL tried to compete. It isn't a stretch to think that the traditional buy in price would be heavily reduced or that the chosen team(s) would receive monetary and logistical help to make it more viable. TL'DR, while there might be some short term disadvantages and costs, its pretty hard to argue that it is the wrong move for either Starcraft or Korean eSports. How are they going to play though? Because it sounds like next Proleague is going to be an online tournament if they open it up to international teams. It's next to impossible for foreign teams to all stay in Korea just for Proleague. | ||
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paddyz
Ireland628 Posts
Honestly though I think there are only a few people that could compete without lowering the competitive level, especially if you only consider non Koreans. | ||
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Rustug
1488 Posts
On August 19 2014 21:55 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Considering what was expected from team with people destroying in 2012 and team, which got even more stable Koreans, it was huge flop. The EG-TL weren't destroying KESPA players back in 2012. They destroyed eSF and Foreigners. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
Only guy that is worthy enough for PL: A team: Jaedong Bogus MC Innovaction HerO B-team: Jjaki MMA San ForGG Hyun And those players will have other tournament to focus on. I think sure it could increase the view count due to the novelty factor but you have to ask yourself which one is more important, the viewership or the game's quality. | ||
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TurboMaN
Germany925 Posts
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Gouka
Brazil11 Posts
On August 19 2014 17:17 Chuddinater wrote: Looking forward to the next season of Proleague we want to make it more exciting then it was this year. We are toying with the idea of opening Proleague to the world. If we did open up Proleague next year to all teams which teams would you be most excited to watch? Do you think if we allowed foreign teams to enter would it lower the competitive level or increase it? Team Liquid and Team Acer. It depends which foreign teams would be invited, but I think in 95% of the cases it would lower the competitive level. | ||
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Doomhunter
United States12 Posts
On August 19 2014 23:48 iamho wrote: No, the only players on foreign teams who can be competitive in proleague are Taeja and Innovation. Besides, the skill gap between Koreans and foreigners has only grown since EGTL played in PL, if a foreign team joined they would only be playing Koreans. Jaedong Bomber Polt Stardust MC Impact Scarlett Sacsri Jjaki Hero Supernova Violet Hyun Ryung Probably only a handful would be interested though. I think Snute, Bunny, and Nercio would all do ok with proper dedication also. Stephano went like 5-4 in proleague when all accounts show that he basically showed up to Korea to party and didn't really practice. | ||
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oneill12
Romania1222 Posts
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shid0x
Korea (South)5014 Posts
Yet i think partnership should be easier to make so that foreign team can send some of their player to proleague for a while. Like each Korean team can be partner with one foreign team for the season and when the foreign team feels like it they send a few players over. Now that would be cool. (kinda what we had with GSTL ) | ||
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klipik12
United States241 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
and thats not a "sc2 is dying" statement im just saying that no game lasts forever as an esport and we only have so much time to experiment with stuff like mixing koreans vs foreigners so honestly im all for it, it will be something fresh to watch if the foreign teams are able to participate i dont see any reason against this. griping about the purity of the competition is a really bizarre thing to do... high level play is a lot but it's not everything, esports is entertainment and it would provide great narratives | ||
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NihilisticGod
Northern Ireland174 Posts
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On August 20 2014 00:38 brickrd wrote: sc2 isnt long enough for this world for us to retain korean elitism in proleague imo and thats not a "sc2 is dying" statement im just saying that no game lasts forever as an esport and we only have so much time to experiment with stuff like mixing koreans vs foreigners so honestly im all for it, it will be something fresh to watch if the foreign teams are able to participate i dont see any reason against this. griping about the purity of the competition is a really bizarre thing to do... high level play is a lot but it's not everything, esports is entertainment and it would provide great narratives With LotV probably coming out next summer I would predict at a conservative range atleast 4 more years of SC2. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On August 20 2014 00:42 NihilisticGod wrote: Would be great to see TL, Acer and Startale in Proleague. Imo these teams have the talent to stand a chance of going far! i'm sorry to say but your opinion is wrong. All 3 would probably finish below Prime if they tried. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On August 20 2014 00:47 Ovid wrote: With LotV probably coming out next summer I would predict at a conservative range atleast 4 more years of SC2. you really never know. a new competitor could emerge or starcrafts share in the esports world could shrink for any number of reasons, lotv could bomb or screw up the game, etc. regardless my point stands just the same that there isn't an eternity of starcraft and who knows whether we're at a peak in terms of skill and hype or what the scene will be like next year. saying "there will probably be 4 years of sc2 left" doesnt really address anything i said or why i said it | ||
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cYaN
Norway3322 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
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NihilisticGod
Northern Ireland174 Posts
On August 20 2014 00:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: i'm sorry to say but your opinion is wrong. All 3 would probably finish below Prime if they tried. Doubt that. | ||
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CoB-Vince
143 Posts
I would love to see other non-Kespa Players play in ProLeague but it wont work out well | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On August 20 2014 00:55 Saechiis wrote: Do foreign teams want to compete in proleague? In the end it's a big investment into probably getting your asss kicked and players sort of having to set aside their individual tournament ambitions. this is what im curious about, didnt eg tl basically say they didnt have the money to keep going and getting wrecked in korea for a few months? im curious how foreign teams would work out their participation, but if its viable id love to see it | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 20 2014 00:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: i'm sorry to say but your opinion is wrong. All 3 would probably finish below Prime if they tried. I don't think finishing below Prime is likely at all unless Prime adds to their lineup. If you just look at Prime's lineup there's Byun who's afk, Barbie, Creator, Kassia, Terror and State. Assuming a lineup of the last four mentioned I think all the teams above are more than capable of beating Prime. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
On August 20 2014 00:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: i'm sorry to say but your opinion is wrong. All 3 would probably finish below Prime if they tried. Prime is a joke right now. They've been a joke for a while. What makes you think Team Liquid or Acer can't beat Prime? On Team Liquid, there is Snute, TLO, Bunny, Mana, Taeja, and Hero. These 5 are easily more than capable of taking down whatever Prime throws at them. Though Taeja did say that he does not perform well in preparation type of tournaments, and he probably won't play much due to his wrists. | ||
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caznitch
Canada645 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On August 20 2014 01:12 geokilla wrote: Prime is a joke right now. They've been a joke for a while. What makes you think Team Liquid or Acer can't beat Prime? On Team Liquid, there is Snute, TLO, Bunny, Mana, Taeja, and Hero. These 5 are easily more than capable of taking down whatever Prime throws at them. Though Taeja did say that he does not perform well in preparation type of tournaments, and he probably won't play much due to his wrists. Preperation is the key. Acer and Liquid would never be as fully commited to Proleague as Prime is and they would come into every match better prepared. Startale I suppose could do better, now that I really look at that team. | ||
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Boucot
France15997 Posts
On August 20 2014 00:58 brickrd wrote: this is what im curious about, didnt eg tl basically say they didnt have the money to keep going and getting wrecked in korea for a few months? im curious how foreign teams would work out their participation, but if its viable id love to see it That's why I think a team playing an entire season of Proleague wouldn't be possible. But I'm thinking of a new possibility that would reside in a special round of one month where an international team (either an already established team or an all-star team) would be invited to fight the other Proleague teams but their results wouldn't matter for the final playoffs. Just for the show. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 20 2014 01:16 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Preperation is the key. Acer and Liquid would never be as fully commited to Proleague as Prime is and they would come into every match better prepared. Startale I suppose could do better, now that I really look at that team. That depends on the conditions of the league. I think that is just the darkhorse in this whole discussion. If Kespa is willing to switch to a format that does not force foreigners to travel to Korea or even worse, stay there, I do not see why professionals such as Snute or TLO, not to mention Koreans such as HerO or Taeja wouldn't change their training schedules to include specific training against Kespa opponents and specific proleague preparation. Without that, there is just a disadvantage at which foreign teams shouldn't even join, because then it's really not going to be worth it. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On August 20 2014 01:29 Big J wrote: That depends on the conditions of the league. I think that is just the darkhorse in this whole discussion. If Kespa is willing to switch to a format that does not force foreigners to travel to Korea or even worse, stay there, I do not see why professionals such as Snute or TLO, not to mention Koreans such as HerO or Taeja wouldn't change their training schedules to include specific training against Kespa opponents and specific proleague preparation. Without that, there is just a disadvantage at which foreign teams shouldn't even join, because then it's really not going to be worth it. Sadly, I doubt the format of Proleague would change any and it won't be worth it for foreign teams. | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
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Shinespark
Chile843 Posts
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Shellshock
United States97276 Posts
On August 20 2014 01:38 Shinespark wrote: I don't think a single foreign team would have a chance of beating Prime, even. Let alone any other Kespa team. Acer would have a shot with Inno MMA and 1 other player picking up a win. Or Inno winning twice | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 20 2014 01:34 ACrow wrote: I like the idea of an All-Star team. As it currently is, no foreign team comes close to being able to compete all by themselves. Not with the top 5 Kespa teams. But 1) a team could invest specifically for proleague (like, Liquid'DRG and then you have a team that can beat anyone) 2) the other Korean teams can't compete with them either, yet some of them played proleague and they can take matches of them or even make final runs (like MVP). Not sure if I like the idea of an allstar team. It's basically just "the guys that play in Korea anyways". I guess it's (much) better than nothing, yet, it's not "a team" and does not give me any "omg, TLO just beat Zest" moments. On August 20 2014 01:38 Shinespark wrote: I don't think a single foreign team would have a chance of beating Prime, even. Let alone any other Kespa team. Snute/Scarlett had a better winrate against Koreans than MKP had in 2014. And MKP doesn't even exist anymore... It's basically Creator, which I would rank lower than Taeja (Liquid) or INnoVation (Acer). | ||
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Thyrym
89 Posts
With 1 or 2 mercenaries ( Pigbaby and Jaedong bcz jaedong vs flash) it would be even better, given Axiom's run on GSTL and i believe in CranK as a coach!! | ||
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ChowChomp
9 Posts
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rotta
5589 Posts
On August 20 2014 01:44 Thyrym wrote: I think that Axiom is the best team for PL. With 1 or 2 mercenaries ( Pigbaby and Jaedong bcz jaedong vs flash) it would be even better, given Axiom's run on GSTL and i believe in CranK as a coach!! 1 Z and 1 whatever's imba next year should be enough? Yoda, First, B4, DRG, Violet? | ||
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Thyrym
89 Posts
On August 20 2014 02:04 rotta wrote: 1 Z and 1 whatever's imba next year should be enough? Yoda, First, B4, DRG, Violet? I think Pigbaby is better in this format, since hes a really unorthodox player and knows how to prepare different stuff so i prefer him than most P players around. | ||
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Josh_Video
Canada798 Posts
On August 20 2014 00:33 klipik12 wrote: Only teams imo that are at least partially viable are Axiom, Acer, TL, YFW and mYi. Probably a few partnerships and contracting of CSN/GEM guys floating around (Yoda, First, MC, Polt, Revival, Violet, HyuN) would be involved. Something like EG did with Revival, JYP, aLive and JD. There is a 0% chance that Polt or viOlet would participate in Proleague. They are busy studying while wrecking the NA scene, there would be no benefit for them. | ||
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Josh_Video
Canada798 Posts
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On August 20 2014 00:08 Xiphos wrote: Honestly speaking, unless the new created team dedicated all of their time on PL, this won't succeed as they will be the new punching bag. Only guy that is worthy enough for PL: A team: Jaedong Bogus MC Innovaction HerO B-team: Jjaki MMA San ForGG Hyun And those players will have other tournament to focus on. I think sure it could increase the view count due to the novelty factor but you have to ask yourself which one is more important, the viewership or the game's quality. As much as I'd love the idea of cloning Bogus, the technology is not there. Regarding allstars: anyone remember Welmu vs. Bounty Hunters? | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 20 2014 02:25 boxerfred wrote: As much as I'd love the idea of cloning Bogus, the technology is not there. Regarding allstars: anyone remember Welmu vs. Bounty Hunters? The technology to build a second Bogus is there, but it would sadly violate Korean patent laws. | ||
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caznitch
Canada645 Posts
Do you want to see foreign teams in Proleague? Yes No Which team? -List some teams, include option for allstar merger Would this increase or decrease the competativness of proleague? Yes No Otherwise we're just arguing about how it would happen or if it's worth it, which is KESPA/the foreign team's job, not ours. | ||
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Boucot
France15997 Posts
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WeVader2
Chile3 Posts
T (Polt or Bomber) Taeja Innovation P MC Stardust (Jim or Welmu) Z (Snute or Hyun) Scarlett Jaedong | ||
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Mistakes
United States1102 Posts
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
Poll: Fav foreign team in Proleague (in disregard of the actual probability) (Vote): EG | ||
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
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SlammerIV
United States526 Posts
Kespa plz....do it. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On August 20 2014 03:16 SlammerIV wrote: PLEASE PLEASE Axiom-Acer!!! That would be awesome. I would watch every match. Kespa plz....do it. Honestly, outside of Ryung, MMA, Innovation, and MAYBE Scarlett, I don't think that Axion-Acer would have the depth necessary to pulls off wins vs your KTs, Jin Air, and CJ. Maybe they can edge out Khan | ||
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klipik12
United States241 Posts
On August 20 2014 03:06 boxerfred wrote: What, no mYi? | ||
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Mattidute
Netherlands232 Posts
On August 20 2014 03:26 Xiphos wrote: Honestly, outside of Ryung, MMA, Innovation, and MAYBE Scarlett, I don't think that Axion-Acer would have the depth necessary to pulls off wins vs your KTs, Jin Air, and CJ. Maybe they can edge out Khan Even Samsung would be to hard for them with Dear, Stork, RorO, Shine, Reality, Solar and Hurricane and the only player on Axiom-Acer that understands how to prepare in Proleague due to experience is Innovation. | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On August 20 2014 03:06 boxerfred wrote: Poll: Fav foreign team in Proleague (in disregard of the actual probability) (Vote): EG Ah, sorry for excluding mYi. Didn't happen on purpose. | ||
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SuperHofmann
Italy1741 Posts
On August 20 2014 03:26 Xiphos wrote: Honestly, outside of Ryung, MMA, Innovation, and MAYBE Scarlett, I don't think that Axion-Acer would have the depth necessary to pulls off wins vs your KTs, Jin Air, and CJ. Maybe they can edge out Khan What about Crank, Heart and Impact? | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
It's not a good time to be Jaedong's son, so you better count only Crank and Heart. And they are not Proleague material IMHO. | ||
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
On August 20 2014 03:55 boxerfred wrote: Ah, sorry for excluding mYi. Didn't happen on purpose. And Yoe | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
I obviously suck. Can a mod edit that poll? | ||
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ColdSCII
United States12 Posts
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HoZBlooddrop
Italy324 Posts
i would definitely love to see more teams in there :D | ||
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Beta2k
Austria218 Posts
please do it ! | ||
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DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
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Gekk02
Switzerland50 Posts
Altough atm only EG-TL and Acers seems realistic | ||
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sparklyresidue
United States5523 Posts
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On August 20 2014 00:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: i'm sorry to say but your opinion is wrong. All 3 would probably finish below Prime if they tried. Who does Prime have beyond Creator? Byun is missing and doesn't seem to be coming back, the rest of the roster consists of Terror, State, Kassia (and possibly a few others I'm forgetting about). Meanwhile, Acer has Innovation/MMA/Scarlett (objectively a stronger roster than Prime's) while ST has Curious, Hack, Panic, Pet and Life. I'm not sure what measuring stick you're using, but you might want to update yourself because acting like Prime is miles ahead of Acer, let alone ST, is ridiculous. | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
and.. second about pro league i trying to make union of team outside of korea i dont know it gonna happened or not but. anyway good isn't it | ||
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HoZBlooddrop
Italy324 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On August 20 2014 05:11 Zealously wrote: Who does Prime have beyond Creator? Byun is missing and doesn't seem to be coming back, the rest of the roster consists of Terror, State, Kassia (and possibly a few others I'm forgetting about). Meanwhile, Acer has Innovation/MMA/Scarlett (objectively a stronger roster than Prime's) while ST has Curious, Hack, Panic, Pet and Life. I'm not sure what measuring stick you're using, but you might want to update yourself because acting like Prime is miles ahead of Acer, let alone ST, is ridiculous. Good luck keeping Inno, MMA and Scarlett in korea for an entire season of Proleage. If the whole team was completely commited then they could do it but it would never happen. I did word it poorly, I shouldn't have said they'd finish below, just that it would be impossible to get to that point. | ||
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AWalker9
United Kingdom7229 Posts
On August 20 2014 04:01 boxerfred wrote: It's not a good time to be Jaedong's son, so you better count only Crank and Heart. And they are not Proleague material IMHO. Considering how Heart's been doing in TvZ lately he would be a great zerg sniper. | ||
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looknohands119
United States815 Posts
On August 20 2014 00:04 geokilla wrote: How are they going to play though? Because it sounds like next Proleague is going to be an online tournament if they open it up to international teams. It's next to impossible for foreign teams to all stay in Korea just for Proleague. I suggested that KeSPA would likely pony up a good portion of the required cash for a foreign team looking to join and live in Korea, at least for the first year. This would make it MUCH easier for a foreign team to live in Korea for Proleague. Not only that but Proleague's growth would mean that the exposure a team receives (especially in Korea and China, since SPL was quite popular in both places) would be pretty damn good in comparison to what most teams get going to foreign events, except, no more travel fatigue because you are staying in Korea and your exposure happens like clockwork, guaranteed at least once per week. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On August 20 2014 04:14 ColdSCII wrote: It would be awesome to see a foreign team in proleague, but to be honest I think mostly the only reason people in the NA scene don't watch proleague is because it's at 2 AM PST. That's why you have already free access to 1080p VoDs. Guess, not Proleague, KeSPA or SPOTV fault. On August 20 2014 05:14 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Good luck keeping Inno, MMA and Scarlett in korea for an entire season of Proleage. If the whole team was completely commited then they could do it but it would never happen. I did word it poorly, I shouldn't have said they'd finish below, just that it would be impossible to get to that point. Bogus plays GSL, Scarlett is already in Korea for half a year without any problems and MMA can play Ro32 of WCS online or just switch to be Code A player, it's not like noone played online parts of WCS from Korea before. Prime suck right now, but i won't be surprised if they just unite with someone and all of this "hype" will be announcement of Prime's alliance with some foreign teams. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On August 20 2014 03:52 Mattidute wrote: Even Samsung would be to hard for them with Dear, Stork, RorO, Shine, Reality, Solar and Hurricane and the only player on Axiom-Acer that understands how to prepare in Proleague due to experience is Innovation. Wasn't the season Axiom-Acer won GSTL when they had both proleague and winner's league formats? You're last point is completely false. Hell Axiom-Acer even went 4-0 that round too | ||
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Shinta)
United States1716 Posts
On August 20 2014 05:53 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: That's why you have already free access to 1080p VoDs. Guess, not Proleague, KeSPA or SPOTV fault. Too late to be a late night show in NA, too late to be a morning show in EU, and just after work hours in Korea. I probably wouldn't even have a chance to watch it live if I lived in Korea ffs! lol... Just very poorly planned air time imo, and having access to VODs is cool and all, but I'm not going to wake up early to watch a morning show of VODs... Or stay up late to watch a late night show of VODs... It's just not even close to the same thing. Plus, watching VODs doesn't even work on my smart TV's browser... Is have to watch it on the small screen, which isn't going to happen unless I'm feeling super nerdy that day. SPL is my favorite show to watch, so I was subscribed all last season, but I ended up not watching any VODs and only catching 2-4 live shows a month, destroying my sleep schedule in the process... Unless I have a day off, and I mean totally free with no schedules, SPL is too hard to fit. | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
But few foreign teams would be able to compete - EG-TL weren't exactly successful. Foreign teams don't/won't dedicate almost entirely to PL like Kespa teams do, so it'd be pretty one sided, you'd think. I'd love to see it regardless. | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 20 2014 05:03 Gekk02 wrote: Invictus Gaming, MyInsanity, EG-TL and Acer Altough atm only EG-TL and Acers seems realisticTeam Acer is realitic. But Axiom is the most realistic. | ||
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alukarD
Mexico396 Posts
KR: Tareja HerO Innovation MMA Non-KR: Bunny MaNa Snute TLO Scarlett Nerchio | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 20 2014 07:07 alukarD wrote: Teamliquid-Acer pretty much does it. Great Koreans. Great top notch foreigners who can actually compete at that level. KR: Tareja HerO Innovation MMA Non-KR: Bunny MaNa Snute TLO Scarlett Nerchio Not sure about TLO, Nerchio or MaNa but definitely feel Bunny, Snute and Scarlett would be competitive. | ||
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SuperHofmann
Italy1741 Posts
On August 20 2014 07:07 alukarD wrote: Teamliquid-Acer pretty much does it. Great Koreans. Great top notch foreigners who can actually compete at that level. KR: Tareja HerO Innovation MMA Non-KR: Bunny MaNa Snute TLO Scarlett Nerchio Mana and not Welmu or VortiX? Cool Story bro | ||
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On August 20 2014 07:28 SuperHofmann wrote: Mana and not Welmu or VortiX? Cool Story bro He was only listing players on TL and Acer? Cool story bro | ||
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Taronar
Netherlands177 Posts
Then about the distance, korea is mekka of esports, keep it there and make foreign events more special, cant really see how that would hurt anyone? | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 20 2014 07:28 SuperHofmann wrote: Mana and not Welmu or VortiX? Cool Story bro Yeah he said TeamLiquid-Acer. Last time I checked Welmu was on NewRoSoft and VortiX was on Millenium. | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 20 2014 07:38 Taronar wrote: Few things I want to note. First of, not every player in SPL was Code S lvl this season. Hell not even code B, but they still offerd great games to watch (eins, sacsri, terror). I think that a lot of foreign teams can blend in at this level. Everyone new Prime or MVP wouldnt take 1st away but they still delivered good games, blending foreign teams to this level is defo an option. Then about the distance, korea is mekka of esports, keep it there and make foreign events more special, cant really see how that would hurt anyone? What match did Sacsri play in this season? | ||
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Wardi
England897 Posts
He lost in Round 2 vs MVP Swagger | ||
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SuperHofmann
Italy1741 Posts
On August 20 2014 07:32 Darkhorse wrote: He was only listing players on TL and Acer? Cool story bro my bad | ||
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felisconcolori
United States6168 Posts
What tangible benefits to the team accrue from participating in Proleague? Is it worth the significant investment in time, money, and commitment as well as the lost opportunities to promote their own team brand and sponsor awareness outside of Korea to take part in Proleague? Yes, Proleague is a very prestigious tournament... in a very niche market of the true SC2 fan (who, more than likely, is already aware of all the sponsors) and the country of South Korea. Partaking of the majestic Proleague doesn't expose teams and brands to a wider audience as can happen when taking part as individual players in events such as DreamHack, IEM, and similar shows where cross-game pollination of fans can occur. (CoD fans between matches may look over and watch, people on their way to booths can get caught up in the hype, someone looking for a chance to rest for a minute could watch and at the least hear of a sponsor they weren't previously aware of, etc. I admit, while between matches at MLG, I've spent some time watching CoD and even Halo - even though I knew MarineKing was in the building and I could have been politely stalking him for an autograph.) So what, besides the prestige of competing against teams whose primary source of prestige is in their commitment to the game and rare appearances outside of Proleague, does participating in Proleague offer to the foreign team or team whose primary sponsors are focused on the market outside of South Korea? (Teams are a business, just like Proleague is at its core a business. This is the kind of thinking that has to go behind it.) In my own opinion, it would be nice to see more teams competing in Proleague - but what does KeSPA have to offer them as an incentive to offset the expense, commitment, and reduced visibility for their sponsors in the primarily EU and NA markets? + Show Spoiler + Sorry if TB already said this. I'm not sure if he did, and if anyone that people listen to would say it, I'm pretty sure he would. | ||
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donkeykong
Australia20 Posts
It is the Chinese market they want to open Proleague up to. There was 100k+ on chinese stream for the last proleague finals and 20k on the English stream. It is the chinese KESPA wants to invite, not EZ-TL mach 2. | ||
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Boucot
France15997 Posts
On August 20 2014 09:59 donkeykong wrote: LOL at all the Westerners assuming OP is talking about Westerners. It is the Chinese market they want to open Proleague up to. There was 100k+ on chinese stream for the last proleague finals and 20k on the English stream. It is the chinese KESPA wants to invite, not EZ-TL mach 2. And that's why they are looking for feedbacks on TeamLiquid right ? | ||
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The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On August 20 2014 09:59 donkeykong wrote: LOL at all the Westerners assuming OP is talking about Westerners. It is the Chinese market they want to open Proleague up to. There was 100k+ on chinese stream for the last proleague finals and 20k on the English stream. It is the chinese KESPA wants to invite, not EZ-TL mach 2. ... with the idea of opening Proleague to the world. If we did open up Proleague next year to all teams if we allowed foreign teams to enter And look at the title of the thread. China is not the world. OP is obviously at least partly talking about westerners. | ||
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
Just yanking your chain mate | ||
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KimJongIlJr
Korea (North)61 Posts
Taiwan/China is the future for PL expansion imo. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On August 20 2014 06:10 chipmonklord17 wrote: Wasn't the season Axiom-Acer won GSTL when they had both proleague and winner's league formats? You're last point is completely false. Hell Axiom-Acer even went 4-0 that round too Yup, we did. I like to rub that fact in the face of people that claim it was all Innovations work. We didn't even have MMA for the proleague format round because he was in Europe and we still 4-0ed it. Proleague format suits a well-rounded deep roster better than all-kill. We don't have the superstars some of these other teams do but we have a consistent strong roster that prepares well for teamleagues. ATC, a format that favours top-heavy teams, was unfortunately not a friendly environment for our team to compete in. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On August 20 2014 11:37 TotalBiscuit wrote: Yup, we did. I like to rub that fact in the face of people that claim it was all Innovations work. We didn't even have MMA for the proleague format round because he was in Europe and we still 4-0ed it. Proleague format suits a well-rounded deep roster better than all-kill. We don't have the superstars some of these other teams do but we have a consistent strong roster that prepares well for teamleagues. ATC, a format that favours top-heavy teams, was unfortunately not a friendly environment for our team to compete in. If you guys were to hypothetically compete in next proleague would you recruit additional players or just rely on the strength of the guys you have? | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On August 20 2014 11:43 chipmonklord17 wrote: If you guys were to hypothetically compete in next proleague would you recruit additional players or just rely on the strength of the guys you have? Hypothetically I'd probably want at least 7 and those would most likely come from an alliance. I can't afford more players right now. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On August 20 2014 11:55 TotalBiscuit wrote: Hypothetically I'd probably want at least 7 and those would most likely come from an alliance. I can't afford more players right now. Team Startale-Axiom incoming? | ||
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klipik12
United States241 Posts
No, AxA! Crank/Ryung/Alicia/Heart/Impact/MMA/Inno with Scarlett+Acer.EU as backup. | ||
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Gaskal
Canada241 Posts
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On August 20 2014 13:14 Gaskal wrote: A Liquid - Acer team-up for SPL would make some noise for sure. and would never happen. If you seriously think Liquid would truck its Europeans over to Korea with WCS the way it is then you haven't been thinking clearly. | ||
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Advantageous
China1350 Posts
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
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Antonidas
United States105 Posts
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On August 20 2014 03:06 boxerfred wrote: Poll: Fav foreign team in Proleague (in disregard of the actual probability) (Vote): EG Some teams missing, I'm sorry, but I'll repost that to increase votes | ||
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Estancia
Korea (South)335 Posts
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Ragnarork
France9034 Posts
I would love to see TeamLiquid, Acer, Axiom and EG compete in Proleague again. First, that would really widen the pool of team and I think this is a good thing. Second, that might push players to compete even harder and bring new blood to the scene as this is a really different format (and we see that players that are successful in solo leagues aren't necessary as well in teamleague, and the other way around as wel). Really great news if that happen. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 20 2014 11:37 TotalBiscuit wrote: Yup, we did. I like to rub that fact in the face of people that claim it was all Innovations work. We didn't even have MMA for the proleague format round because he was in Europe and we still 4-0ed it. Proleague format suits a well-rounded deep roster better than all-kill. We don't have the superstars some of these other teams do but we have a consistent strong roster that prepares well for teamleagues. ATC, a format that favours top-heavy teams, was unfortunately not a friendly environment for our team to compete in. While I believe your players and team isn't getting the credit they deserve I am also not thinking KeSPA players here are getting the credit they deserve. You seem the losing in proleague and there are no 'real superstars' besides the really big names in Proleague. Thats simply because the average level of KeSPA is really high. A deep roster is and will always be important, but your message reads a bit in the direction of KeSPA teams having a few superstars but not a capable roster (a deep one) behind that which is completely wrong if you wanted to say that. Actually I cannot believe you wanted, but it surely reads like that Edit: In addition to the general topic. I don't think any foreign team wants to commit in the same fashion as the Korean teams can and will. Foreign events are very important so the roster would not be complete at every time which is very important. You need to be able to prepare and field your players freely. To have such a commitment to proleague simply isn't worth it for most teams. If you add the chances ,that even a good team is not LIKELY to win the proleague in the end I would rather not try and focus on Dreamhack, IEM, WCS and all other tournaments | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 20 2014 13:13 klipik12 wrote: No, AxA! Crank/Ryung/Alicia/Heart/Impact/MMA/Inno with Scarlett+Acer.EU as backup. I think at this point CranK, Ryung, Alicia, Heart, Impact, MMA, INnoVation, Scarlett is most likely. | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 20 2014 18:11 NarutO wrote: Proleague is KeSPA players reign. Its already I would dare to say too hard for foreign players to keep up with Koreans on the field of their own strength - the fast moving grid in a tournament. The strength of KeSPA players is preperation so while I'm not counting out all players named no matter which region or team they are from - I dont think they can compete on even terms with the Korean teams. While I believe your players and team isn't getting the credit they deserve I am also not thinking KeSPA players here are getting the credit they deserve. You seem the losing in proleague and there are no 'real superstars' besides the really big names in Proleague. Thats simply because the average level of KeSPA is really high. A deep roster is and will always be important, but your message reads a bit in the direction of KeSPA teams having a few superstars but not a capable roster (a deep one) behind that which is completely wrong if you wanted to say that. Actually I cannot believe you wanted, but it surely reads like that Edit: In addition to the general topic. I don't think any foreign team wants to commit in the same fashion as the Korean teams can and will. Foreign events are very important so the roster would not be complete at every time which is very important. You need to be able to prepare and field your players freely. To have such a commitment to proleague simply isn't worth it for most teams. If you add the chances ,that even a good team is not LIKELY to win the proleague in the end I would rather not try and focus on Dreamhack, IEM, WCS and all other tournaments Do teams like KT Rolster, SKT1, Jin Air and CJ Entus have more depth than Axiom? Yes absolutely. They are teams crammed full of really strong players and they have big KeSPA budgets. I reckon Axiom could give them a run for their money though and that's the beauty of it. Against these titans Axiom are always going to be the underdog but Axiom do have a solid line-up. If Axiom can get the partnership that TB mentioned earlier in this thread, say for example with Acer like they did last time (MMA, INnoVation and Scarlett), then I reckon they will be more than competitive in Proleague and maybe could even finish in the play-offs (although to finish above one of CJ Entus, SKT1, Jin Air Green Wings and KT Rolster is going to be a monumental effort). The GSTL winning AxiomAcer side I reckon is better than MVP, Prime, StarTale, IM, and maybe even Samsung Galaxy. | ||
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zeratul_jf
United States808 Posts
On August 20 2014 11:55 TotalBiscuit wrote: Hypothetically I'd probably want at least 7 and those would most likely come from an alliance. I can't afford more players right now. You know TB, I'm not a big fan of your post usually, but I love Axiom because you basically saved all of my favorite players from having to be teamless. I would def love to see you guys be in proleague as I feel that your team can compete with the best given enough preparation. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
I am not counting out anyone and with due respect I have towards Axiom it still should be allowed to mention that they are not likely going to have a high-finish. This is not meant as offence as I myself am a fan of for example Impact or Ryung but being fan doesn't mean I cannot have another opinion on how Axiom would rate against the KeSPA teams. For example while Axiom has a deep roster as its always mentioned by TB, they did "ONLY" finish 4th in ATC and that wasn't just about other teams having the better star player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Acer_TeamStory_Cup_Season_3/Group_Stage They often edged out 'smaller teams' without big star players in close series, yet they also won convincingly against some of the other teams. While in proleague its not the allkill format through the season, I am saying that the average level or a proleague fielded player is WORLDS above the average ATC player, so people need to think if a 'deep roster' which is always the argument against the allkill format is able to edge out the monsters that are the proleague Koreans. | ||
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phil.ipp
Austria1067 Posts
just look at the money 14000 dollar for WINNING one round - yeah WINNING haha will never happen 50000 dollar for WINNING the playoffs .. yeah unthinkable come on, flight tickets for the whole team cost more than they could ever make .. Taeja can make more in a weekend. there would have to be a huge financial support from KESPA. and for what? 10-20.000 more viewers? everyone in europe already watches proleague, and in US nobody will watch proleague cause its at 2 AM in the morning doesnt matter who plays, people have to get up in the morning, work, school, you know reality. | ||
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rotta
5589 Posts
On August 20 2014 22:28 NarutO wrote: Frankly spoken - this is not what a foreign team is to me. Axiom are Koreans so they are not "foreigners" to me just because they are not playing on a Korean team. Maybe they should be called koreigners from now on? | ||
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zeratul_jf
United States808 Posts
On August 20 2014 22:41 phil.ipp wrote: its not even worth thinking about for european teams just look at the money 14000 dollar for WINNING one round - yeah WINNING haha will never happen 50000 dollar for WINNING the playoffs .. yeah unthinkable come on, flight tickets for the whole team cost more than they could ever make .. Taeja can make more in a weekend. there would have to be a huge financial support from KESPA. and for what? 10-20.000 more viewers? everyone in europe already watches proleague, and in US nobody will watch proleague cause its at 2 AM in the morning doesnt matter who plays, people have to get up in the morning, work, school, you know reality. Maybe on the west coast of the US, but I watch Proleague when my favorite teams are playing because it starts at 5am here in the East coast of the US. Now i obviously make it a point to get up at this time, but i get ready for work while I watch Proleague. I def think that more ppl would watch if more players they wanted to see were playing. Just look at the viewers for the EG-TL matches. Especially when a foreigner was playing. It is true that most teams wouldn't want to go because they prefer individual results to team league results due to the fact that you just explained the prize pool. | ||
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Vete
Germany190 Posts
On August 20 2014 22:41 phil.ipp wrote: its not even worth thinking about for european teams just look at the money 14000 dollar for WINNING one round - yeah WINNING haha will never happen 50000 dollar for WINNING the playoffs .. yeah unthinkable come on, flight tickets for the whole team cost more than they could ever make .. Taeja can make more in a weekend. there would have to be a huge financial support from KESPA. and for what? 10-20.000 more viewers? everyone in europe already watches proleague, and in US nobody will watch proleague cause its at 2 AM in the morning doesnt matter who plays, people have to get up in the morning, work, school, you know reality. This is the reason why I watch the VODs on youtube. Kespa could increase viewership by doing they allow restreaming in different languages e.g. French,German ect.. | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 20 2014 22:28 NarutO wrote: Frankly spoken - this is not what a foreign team is to me. Axiom are Koreans so they are not "foreigners" to me just because they are not playing on a Korean team. While Axiom has a good roster I certainly believe that proleague is the field the 'KOREANS' shine most. They are insanely good at preparing for one match up and one map. 'Foreigners' have trouble to take them down in the weekend-tournament bracket system so it will be even harder in this format. I am not counting out anyone and with due respect I have towards Axiom it still should be allowed to mention that they are not likely going to have a high-finish. This is not meant as offence as I myself am a fan of for example Impact or Ryung but being fan doesn't mean I cannot have another opinion on how Axiom would rate against the KeSPA teams. For example while Axiom has a deep roster as its always mentioned by TB, they did "ONLY" finish 4th in ATC and that wasn't just about other teams having the better star player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Acer_TeamStory_Cup_Season_3/Group_Stage They often edged out 'smaller teams' without big star players in close series, yet they also won convincingly against some of the other teams. While in proleague its not the allkill format through the season, I am saying that the average level or a proleague fielded player is WORLDS above the average ATC player, so people need to think if a 'deep roster' which is always the argument against the allkill format is able to edge out the monsters that are the proleague Koreans. Axiom would win the ATC if it were Proleague format. | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On August 20 2014 22:41 phil.ipp wrote: its not even worth thinking about for european teams just look at the money 14000 dollar for WINNING one round - yeah WINNING haha will never happen 50000 dollar for WINNING the playoffs .. yeah unthinkable come on, flight tickets for the whole team cost more than they could ever make .. Taeja can make more in a weekend. there would have to be a huge financial support from KESPA. and for what? 10-20.000 more viewers? everyone in europe already watches proleague, and in US nobody will watch proleague cause its at 2 AM in the morning doesnt matter who plays, people have to get up in the morning, work, school, you know reality. About the Money. True. And think also about the change of WCS Regions. I dont think it will happen despite Axiom and Acer. About the time? Absolutly wrong. When the IndyCars drive during the evening in the US, they start for me at 3am. And i watch till 6 am. For me the bigger problem is in europe: The SPL starts arround 11 am. You work at that time. You cant watch SPL. You just cant do it. On August 20 2014 23:12 Crot4le wrote: Axiom would win the ATC if it were Proleague format. Maybe you should not watch the situation as a "massive fan", but as a neutral observer. Voting TL and Acer under Axiom in a PL-format ist truly... . Acer has 3 top lvl player, one player who snipes em all and another medium tier player. TL has 4 Top lvl Player and additional good players in its roster. Dont get me wrong, Axiom would have been better in the last SPL then Prime and togeather with Acer, the winners combination of last GSTL and 3rd of GSTL 2013 R1 will be better then MVP, IM and Prime. Axiom can compete with the lower tier Kespa teams and shouldnt stand behind. Togeather in the old Aliance, they will give a good fight. | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 20 2014 22:41 phil.ipp wrote: its not even worth thinking about for european teams just look at the money 14000 dollar for WINNING one round - yeah WINNING haha will never happen 50000 dollar for WINNING the playoffs .. yeah unthinkable come on, flight tickets for the whole team cost more than they could ever make .. Taeja can make more in a weekend. there would have to be a huge financial support from KESPA. and for what? 10-20.000 more viewers? everyone in europe already watches proleague, and in US nobody will watch proleague cause its at 2 AM in the morning doesnt matter who plays, people have to get up in the morning, work, school, you know reality. While that's a very realistic post, I'm not sure this applies so much to Team Acer (who would gain a lot from advertising much like Samsung Galaxy and the proper KeSPA teams do) and Axiom eSports, who are already based in Korea so competing in Proleague will actually be cheaper for them than flying out to foreign events like Dreamhack and IEM. I agree, we are unlikely to see the likes of Team Liquid, Evil Geniuses, Fnatic, Millenium etc competing in Proleague any time soon but I do think Team Acer or Axiom may compete - maybe even as a reunion as AxiomAcer. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 20 2014 23:12 Crot4le wrote: Axiom would win the ATC if it were Proleague format. I don't know about that, but they have a higher chance compared to an allkill format yes. But its not about ATC, its about proleague and in proleague what looks like a deep lineup is no advantage to Axiom. I dare say that every proleague team can field either better or equal lineups. | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
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Shinta)
United States1716 Posts
On August 20 2014 23:19 Clonester wrote: About the Money. True. And think also about the change of WCS Regions. I dont think it will happen despite Axiom and Acer. About the time? Absolutly wrong. When the IndyCars drive during the evening in the US, they start for me at 3am. And i watch till 6 am. For me the bigger problem is in europe: The SPL starts arround 11 am. You work at that time. You cant watch SPL. You just cant do it. I prefer to not be unhealthy as fuck, so 4am is out of the question =P About the time, what Phil said is absolutely right for anyone who cares about their well being and their energy levels and want to live a normal/healthy lifestyle. But yeah, like I said earlier, times are impossible for pretty much all regions unless you don't have a normal job. Maybe if I was 18 and only had to deal with school, but those days are long gone. | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 20 2014 23:20 NarutO wrote: I don't know about that, but they have a higher chance compared to an allkill format yes. But its not about ATC, its about proleague and in proleague what looks like a deep lineup is no advantage to Axiom. I dare say that every proleague team can field either better or equal lineups. Would Axiom win Proleague? No probably not. But they'd definitely be competitive. Axiom's forte is preparation-based team leagues. CranK is a great coach, he proved this in GSTL. Axiom are one strong zerg player away from having a really strong and well-rounded six player roster. That's a lot of depth. I know TB has mentioned they will need more sponsors before they can afford a sixth player, but regardless I really fancy Axiom's chances to at least finish roughly mid-table in Proleague, and even more so with an extra three players that he was talking about from a team partnership (which let's be honest is most likely to be MMA, INnoVation and Scarlett in an AxiomAcer partnership, unless TB has some teamless Korean mercenaries on his mind but that doesn't seem as likely to me). | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 20 2014 23:35 Shinta) wrote: I prefer to not be unhealthy as fuck, so 4am is out of the question =P About the time, what Phil said is absolutely right for anyone who cares about their well being and their energy levels and want to live a normal/healthy lifestyle. But yeah, like I said earlier, times are impossible for pretty much all regions unless you don't have a normal job. Maybe if I was 18 and only had to deal with school, but those days are long gone. You can always watch the VODs you know. They're posted for free in 1080p quality on their YouTube channel. | ||
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rotta
5589 Posts
On August 20 2014 23:43 Crot4le wrote: You can always watch the VODs you know. They're posted for free in 1080p quality on their YouTube channel. It's not the same. For me following the games live is paramount, I never watch VOD's of games I didn't catch unless there's something specific I want to see. Even F5'ing the LR with my phone has more magic. But I'm pretty lucky, since SPL usually started right at the end of my work day. Earlier I used to work shifts, so I caught about 50% of GS(T)L. American events were tough. Now I'm unemployed, so it's Starcraft up the ass all day every day. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 20 2014 23:41 Crot4le wrote: Would Axiom win Proleague? No probably not. But they'd definitely be competitive. Axiom's forte is preparation-based team leagues. CranK is a great coach, he proved this in GSTL. Axiom are one strong zerg player away from having a really strong and well-rounded six player roster. That's a lot of depth. I know TB has mentioned they will need more sponsors before they can afford a sixth player, but regardless I really fancy Axiom's chances to at least finish roughly mid-table in Proleague, and even more so with an extra three players that he was talking about from a team partnership (which let's be honest is most likely to be MMA, INnoVation and Scarlett in an AxiomAcer partnership, unless TB has some teamless Korean mercenaries on his mind but that doesn't seem as likely to me). I simply believe you are overrating the Axiom players in comparison to proleague players especially when its about the prepared bo1. Impact is really strong. Ryung isn't really the most solid player ever. He peaks very high but he often has so-so games which you cannot afford to have in proleague. Alicia and Crank are prime examples of solid and good players, but being solid and good doesnt put you ahead of anyone in proleague. Same goes for Heart. By no means Axiom has 'bad' players, but on the other hand they don't really have outstanding talents within their roster that I would put ahead of proleague players. You are saying they will rank midfield - I simply disagree. I can accept your opinion but there is no point talking this any further as its simply different opinions. If Axiom ranks in midfield of proleague I will be very happy for them and ofcourse it would prove me wrong but all my statements are not meant offensive in any way. I simply think that proleague players and their dedication and preperation is exceptional. | ||
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SuperHofmann
Italy1741 Posts
https://twitter.com/StardustSC2/status/501820949558484993 | ||
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Growiel
Korea (South)363 Posts
On August 20 2014 23:19 Clonester wrote: For me the bigger problem is in europe: The SPL starts arround 11 am. You work at that time. You cant watch SPL. You just cant do it. I do it. I watch every single match while working. | ||
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phil.ipp
Austria1067 Posts
each time zone US / EUROPE / KOREA should focus on their own leagues and tournaments. fly people for one weekend to another time zone for a special event is OK! but not for an 8 month team league, you will hurt the other Zone. if you want to compare it with football for example Some MLS Team will not go for 8 Month to Spain only cause Spain TV Station would want more US Viewers. Would it be great for the Fans of the MLS team, to see them compete with the best like Barcelona/Real Madrid, of course. But the MLS would lose a great team and drop even more in quality. The same can be said here. Would i love to see Snute, TLO, ect compete with the best of the best? of course. but not if it would mean tournaments and leagues in europe would lose these players. I like the current WCS System. 3 Regions, and at the end a big tournament like a World Cup. Thats basically the System that every Sport has in some variation. That leaves Korea based "foreign" Teams, i say go for it, why not? | ||
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
Has everyone forgotten the evil alliance between egtl that finished last. | ||
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Boucot
France15997 Posts
On August 21 2014 00:19 SuperHofmann wrote: What about this? :D https://twitter.com/StardustSC2/status/501820949558484993 I think StarDust is an utopist | ||
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klipik12
United States241 Posts
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Cazimirbzh
334 Posts
Opening Proleague to the world maybe a good idea however i dont know if the right time has come. Some foreigner players can, with a bit of luck, have a decent level in order to show us good games but majority are not yet skilled enought to be a good vs proleague players. it's coming slowly with the growth of sc2 and the increase of stability and sponsorship but, like it was suggested many time, a EG/TL/Axiom/Acer team makes no sense to me :S i'd rather have a "foreigner team" composed with pple coming from ALL around the world (qualifier?) who can be in korea and give the time required for proleague than some top players already in teams with obligations and other concerns depending on the team. To have a stonghold for foreigner maybe supported by iesf can be a solution. I think it's the main issue, if foreginer teams want to enter why not ? but if it's "just" for the prestige of being on proleague there is no point. Allowing foreigners to compete will not change the level of god, nothing can :p it'll just give us a chance to have our ass kicks XD ps: it has been mention - to allow foreigner to cast in native language at a different timeline may help bring us more closer. pss: plz try to see if blizzard can grant wcs points for proleague in order to have a real final at blizzcon | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On August 20 2014 22:49 rotta wrote: Maybe they should be called koreigners from now on? I came up with Euroreans for the MC/Patience/Yoda/First/ect I like Koreigners | ||
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felisconcolori
United States6168 Posts
 CranK up the discussion for Axiom. They have the  Heart to climb the Proleague ladder Ryungs and could make an  Impact with only a little INnoVation from an Acer alliance. A good finish would probably make Alicia blush Scarlett. Still, it all depends on the central question - what does Proleague offer to them as a team that justifies the investment in time and effort? + Show Spoiler + I apologize, I couldn't resist the puns. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24209 Posts
Definitely Acer and TL, with various possible partnerships. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Maybe an Axiom / Acer alliance would get something done; hard to say they're really up to it. When was the last time a foreigner qualified for Code A? | ||
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desertfrog817
United States16 Posts
All in all I know Root.Major would be happy he doesnt have to go into kespa with a different team this time lol | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 21 2014 00:12 NarutO wrote: I simply believe you are overrating the Axiom players in comparison to proleague players especially when its about the prepared bo1. Impact is really strong. Ryung isn't really the most solid player ever. He peaks very high but he often has so-so games which you cannot afford to have in proleague. Alicia and Crank are prime examples of solid and good players, but being solid and good doesnt put you ahead of anyone in proleague. Same goes for Heart. By no means Axiom has 'bad' players, but on the other hand they don't really have outstanding talents within their roster that I would put ahead of proleague players. You are saying they will rank midfield - I simply disagree. I can accept your opinion but there is no point talking this any further as its simply different opinions. If Axiom ranks in midfield of proleague I will be very happy for them and ofcourse it would prove me wrong but all my statements are not meant offensive in any way. I simply think that proleague players and their dedication and preperation is exceptional. Your points are fair and I do see where you are coming from, but TB has mentioned an extra three players in a partnership (and to me that screams MMA, Scarlett and INnoVation) and they would definitely bolster the roster - especially a team league beast like INnoVation.  No it's fair enough and I do agree that we'll just have to wait and see. (If it does transpire that is). | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 21 2014 01:50 klipik12 wrote: Maybe instead, we make a Europe Proleague or an NA Proleague or both or a combination. :o Well that's what I was hoping the Acer Teamstory Cup would develop into. Acer Teamstory Cup is really exciting and hype but I feel that's at absence of anything else. The ATC format is flawed in my opinion and there is massive imbalances due to scheduling issues which really undermine it somewhat. A foreign Proleague would be really good, but realistically for it to be really hype it has to be offline and there is no eSports centre in the foreign scene equivalent to Seoul where all the teams are localised. Look at the Liquipedia list of Team Houses. All the Korean houses are in the same place, the foreigner ones are all over the place. Really the most likely place which could see this happen is Cologne where a few teams and the ESL studio is located, as well as the GEM house. But really do you think top teams like mYinsanity would uproot from Switzerland, Evil Geniuses and ROOT from America, and Millenium from France etc? I highly doubt it. I'd give it like a 0.1% chance. I think the scene has a lot of growing to do before a foreign Proleague is conceivable. Which is a shame I suppose because I enjoy team leagues in StarCraft more than individual tournaments. | ||
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CutTheEnemy
Canada373 Posts
Loved spl this year. I think it might dilute proleague if you invited too many foreign teams. A proleague with >16 teams might be disorienting. However, its always very interesting to see very good players against weaker ones. Certainly, having a handful of foreign teams would be enjoyable! I'd personally be interested in seeing mYi and ROOT. The players on those teams are just interesting. TL, EG and Acer would also be nice. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 21 2014 09:38 CutTheEnemy wrote: tldr - I'd personally be interested in seeing mYi and ROOT. Loved spl this year. I think it might dilute proleague if you invited too many foreign teams. A proleague with >16 teams might be disorienting. However, its always very interesting to see very good players against weaker ones. Certainly, having a handful of foreign teams would be enjoyable! I'd personally be interested in seeing mYi and ROOT. The players on those teams are just interesting. TL, EG and Acer would also be nice. ROOT? SuperNoVa yes... MajOr .. maybe he can play a good game but besides that? No player with proleague level of play | ||
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Growiel
Korea (South)363 Posts
Opening to foreign team will 100% lower it. There's a reason why every tournament is won by a Korean. | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 21 2014 17:43 NarutO wrote: ROOT? SuperNoVa yes... MajOr .. maybe he can play a good game but besides that? No player with proleague level of play No doubt that ROOT would still be cannon fodder in Proleague despite strengthening recently. But it's a moot point because there's absolutely no chance that they uproot from their massive house in California to be crushed in Proleague. No chance at all. | ||
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zeyu0920
Canada8 Posts
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Jordan_
Italy50 Posts
On August 20 2014 07:28 SuperHofmann wrote: Mana and not Welmu or VortiX? Cool Story bro Welmu and not ChanmanV or Robert Ohlen? Cool Story bro | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 19 2014 17:17 Chuddinater wrote: We are toying with the idea of opening Proleague to the world. I'd like to make the point that I also feel it's a great idea to open Proleague to the world in getting other language streams involved. Do what Dreamhack and IEM does and use proven organisations such as TeSL, NeoTV, O'Gaming, TakeTV, EMSCTV. Do this and your penetration into the foreign market will grow further. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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Cazimirbzh
334 Posts
I dont like the idea of foreign languages and casters being in proleague games. u can just give a restricted access to obs videofeed and add foreign languages like u take gsl twitch stream, mute the sound and comment the games (completely illegal by the way) the issue is the broadcast timing because even if there is a eng stream, who in US will be awake at 2 AM ? 1% - 2% of sc2's viewership ? not really worth it^^ Perhaps a proleague rebroadcast with foreign languages according to their own timeline ? it can be cool to watch proleague at 6 PM when i come back from work rather than watch vod with this F^^ timer on YT. Give us replays ( XD) or give us video feed ( o wait you dont need to, kespa can just give permission to use their YT videos ) | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44562 Posts
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Orr
United States168 Posts
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On August 21 2014 09:09 Crot4le wrote: Well that's what I was hoping the Acer Teamstory Cup would develop into. Acer Teamstory Cup is really exciting and hype but I feel that's at absence of anything else. The ATC format is flawed in my opinion and there is massive imbalances due to scheduling issues which really undermine it somewhat. A foreign Proleague would be really good, but realistically for it to be really hype it has to be offline and there is no eSports centre in the foreign scene equivalent to Seoul where all the teams are localised. Look at the Liquipedia list of Team Houses. All the Korean houses are in the same place, the foreigner ones are all over the place. Really the most likely place which could see this happen is Cologne where a few teams and the ESL studio is located, as well as the GEM house. But really do you think top teams like mYinsanity would uproot from Switzerland, Evil Geniuses and ROOT from America, and Millenium from France etc? I highly doubt it. I'd give it like a 0.1% chance. I think the scene has a lot of growing to do before a foreign Proleague is conceivable. Which is a shame I suppose because I enjoy team leagues in StarCraft more than individual tournaments. EG isn't a top team. It's just Jaedong who is relevant to this discussion. Hell, EG struggled and couldn't even show up on time half the time for ATC, Proleague is out of the question for them. At most, you'd use Jaedong as a mercenary or as part of an "all star" team. | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
Sure you do in fact see gains, I've noticed how many of the root players have improved as far as the ones at their team house go. For a while some of the EG players were some of the most consistent of any team at least in the foreign scene, though personality issues likely didn't help with that much such in the case of Idra and his stupidness. Koreans however have had that environment for years and years, refined it and reaped the benefits from having a culture that turned those gamers into rock stars during the brood war era. As a result they have a deeper talent pool in a smaller area that makes it easier to get top gamers into pro houses, into a practice environment to both improve existing players and themselves. Many of times at little to no cost to the teams as the players rarely demanded much of anything outside of being part of the team in the past (I know this is changing) Conversely foreign teams must salary players to even get them to practice a lot in the first place (in many cases). Almost no players is willing to live at a team house and for go school, work, etc. to play games 8+ hours a day. As a result the teams just are not good enough because the situations and culture of the players isn't as focused. Could it work sure, but that would require expenses for any one team that probably wouldn't be worth it to them. At least not for a truly foreign team, no offense to TB and the great things he's done with Axiom, but largely it's a Korean player team under a foreign banner. If you wanted a truly Foreign team made up of foreign players, there just isn't one out there that has the talent or finances to make moving a whole team to Korea viable. I still say an all star team 'could' work, but the only way it'd work is if PL helped with expenses which they would only do if they think the gain is worth the expense as I've said before. Because even an all star team would need proper cohesion, coaching, housing, etc. The more I think about it the more I think a foreign team in PL just won't work the logistics are probably just not worth it. | ||
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sm1995
Korea (South)69 Posts
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On August 22 2014 03:41 sm1995 wrote: They will be rank last even if best foreign team is made just like egtl. Behind Prime? | ||
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
Of course As a matter of fact, a lot of teams will be behind Prime next season | ||
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Greenei
Germany1754 Posts
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The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On August 22 2014 03:50 Lorning wrote: Of course As a matter of fact, a lot of teams will be behind Prime next season Not kt | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On August 22 2014 03:51 Greenei wrote: Make it an allstar team of all the players that are willing to participate and then let us fans decide, who should be part of the team. Who will pay? There are logistical questions that keep this from happening that need to be answered before we can even think about a public vote. Do the players even WANT to go? | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On August 22 2014 04:25 Zealously wrote: Who will pay? There are logistical questions that keep this from happening that need to be answered before we can even think about a public vote. Do the players even WANT to go? Hopefully Kespa would rent out a place like GOM used to and house the foreign players. I imagine that would make the move much more feasible for any team Also say they make an 8 man team. Top 8 votes get first preference then move down a line for every person who says no | ||
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
Especially KT | ||
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The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
I thought we were talking about standings, not number of losses... | ||
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
On August 22 2014 05:04 The_Templar wrote: I thought we were talking about standings, not number of losses... But we are talking about standings | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13977 Posts
Scarlett Polt (HES AMERICAN OKAY) Snute Bunny Taeja DongRaeGu (cpt) (he looking for foreign team) INnoVation Ryung this would be my 8 | ||
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Cazimirbzh
334 Posts
Polt (HES AMERICAN OKAY) Athlete Visa is not nationality if i am not mistaken | ||
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MASTERCAKES
United States127 Posts
On August 22 2014 06:02 Cazimirbzh wrote: Athlete Visa is not nationality if i am not mistaken woosh | ||
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felisconcolori
United States6168 Posts
On August 22 2014 06:02 Cazimirbzh wrote: Athlete Visa is not nationality if i am not mistaken ... but it can be a path to citizenship. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On August 22 2014 11:12 felisconcolori wrote: ... but it can be a path to citizenship. As interesting as whether Polt counts as an American or not is it doesn't really matter. I mean he's here because he's in school. He won't go back to Korea to compete in proleague until he's done with whatever portion of his education he's getting in the USA | ||
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mikumegurine
Canada3145 Posts
Koreans, Polt > Foreigners | ||
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felisconcolori
United States6168 Posts
On August 22 2014 11:18 chipmonklord17 wrote: As interesting as whether Polt counts as an American or not is it doesn't really matter. I mean he's here because he's in school. He won't go back to Korea to compete in proleague until he's done with whatever portion of his education he's getting in the USA Actually, Polt was in the US for school under a student visa, I believe. Then he got his Athlete's visa. He has since suspended his studies and is competing full time, AFAIK. | ||
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
On August 22 2014 04:25 Zealously wrote: Who will pay? There are logistical questions that keep this from happening that need to be answered before we can even think about a public vote. Do the players even WANT to go? Shit this is TL, you get the players to agree and we'll kickstarter their asses there in no time | ||
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imrusty269
United States1404 Posts
On August 22 2014 11:32 felisconcolori wrote: Actually, Polt was in the US for school under a student visa, I believe. Then he got his Athlete's visa. He has since suspended his studies and is competing full time, AFAIK. What was Polt studying? | ||
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TelecoM
United States10675 Posts
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Cazimirbzh
334 Posts
Polt is Murican According to US law, no, he's not USian however he is a USian athlete...for the time being ^^ ... but it can be a path to citizenship. i dont think there's a time limit for athlete visa, u can renew it as long as u're good so not really any need for citizenshipunless wait wcs region lock :D | ||
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Boucot
France15997 Posts
English | ||
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Cazimirbzh
334 Posts
What was Polt studying? English and that was a really lame excuse to play sc2^^ GJ USian governement edit: he studied biomedical engeneering at seoul university | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
Pretty sure something like animal biology. | ||
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felisconcolori
United States6168 Posts
This man has it right. While Polt probably did study some English while he was here (nearly all foreign students in the US take some kind of English as Second Language education) but his actual course of study was, IIRC, veterinary science. Polt - he's so American he can heal Bald Eagles. | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
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goody153
44179 Posts
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TheSayo182
Italy243 Posts
On August 24 2014 00:06 Survivor61316 wrote: Lets be honest, foreign teams would just lower the competition quality of the league. so what? do you believe prime enhanced game quality this year? | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 24 2014 00:22 TheSayo182 wrote: so what? do you believe prime enhanced game quality this year? I think they did. Okay they weren't the best team but they certainly had their fair share of entertaining matches. And every league needs an underdog and Prime did pull of a few upsets - they beat CJ Entus if I recall correctly. | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
On August 24 2014 15:24 Crot4le wrote: I think they did. Okay they weren't the best team but they certainly had their fair share of entertaining matches. And every league needs an underdog and Prime did pull of a few upsets - they beat CJ Entus if I recall correctly. They beat SKT :D | ||
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lokes
Argentina80 Posts
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
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lastride
2390 Posts
On August 24 2014 18:33 lokes wrote: the finals will be an event I will remember for the rest of my life, especially FlaSh kicking the soccer ball with the names of the SKT players into the crowd. It was unforgettable !! | ||
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