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On August 13 2014 10:10 Crot4le wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 09:58 TotalBiscuit wrote:@TB: I'm working voluntarily in Peru with street-kids and, I'm spending my time and money to contribute something social. I'm living off of crap, I have around 500 Dollar to spend a month for food, shelter and so on, so I definitely know what dedication and hard-work feels like. Oh my heart bleeds... Appealing to the moral highground means nothing. If anything all it does is make your perspective even less realistic. This isn't Peru and we're not doing charity work. This is the US and $1800 for a months work here is rubbish. I struggle to believe that organising an online tournament is really a months work. Take the typical 9am-5pm job. That's 8 hours a day. I highly doubt that Destiny had to put in 248 hours to organise this.
I struggle to believe people continue to question the amount of money Destiny made from this tournament he organized.
While, I ( and probably the majority of the community ) want to see the players receive as much money as possible to keep doing what they do best, I'd still be just as happy if Destiny made 10k from this.
I think most are missing the point, that this is good for the scene either way. The fact is, he put more money in the pockets of the Players, Casters, and created more excellent content for the fans/viewers should be the only thing important in this scenario. Not to mention the NA ladder was more competitive during the qualifying stages.
Considering this tournament was a success at the same time putting money in the organizers pocket to justify doing it again is fantastic news. I only hope more people will adopt this model and help grow this scene.
This negativity I see constantly towards people that try to help this scene is discouraging.
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On August 13 2014 10:33 RoninColt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 10:10 Crot4le wrote:On August 12 2014 09:58 TotalBiscuit wrote:@TB: I'm working voluntarily in Peru with street-kids and, I'm spending my time and money to contribute something social. I'm living off of crap, I have around 500 Dollar to spend a month for food, shelter and so on, so I definitely know what dedication and hard-work feels like. Oh my heart bleeds... Appealing to the moral highground means nothing. If anything all it does is make your perspective even less realistic. This isn't Peru and we're not doing charity work. This is the US and $1800 for a months work here is rubbish. I struggle to believe that organising an online tournament is really a months work. Take the typical 9am-5pm job. That's 8 hours a day. I highly doubt that Destiny had to put in 248 hours to organise this. I struggle to believe people continue to question the amount of money Destiny made from this tournament he organized. While, I ( and probably the majority of the community ) want to see the players receive as much money as possible to keep doing what they do best, I'd still be just as happy if Destiny made 10k from this. I think most are missing the point, that this is good for the scene either way. The fact is, he put more money in the pockets of the Players, Casters, and created more excellent content for the fans/viewers should be the only thing important in this scenario. Not to mention the NA ladder was more competitive during the qualifying stages. Considering this tournament was a success at the same time putting money in the organizers pocket to justify doing it again is fantastic news. I only hope more people will adopt this model and help grow this scene. This negativity I see constantly towards people that try to help this scene is discouraging.
Oh I don't care that much either way. I didn't donate to the indiegogo so I don't have that much of a vested interest in this. At the end of the day I got to see a great tournament, which was well run with some really good casting and some exciting games.
I just can see peoples' point that $1,800 is a lot of profit to pocket on the back of a tournament funded by the community. Of course Destiny should be compensated for the time he spent organising and casting the tournament. But once he is fully compensated then I do think the surplus should go towards a Destiny II after all it is on the back of community donations that he made such money (no donations, no prize pool, no tournament, no sponsorship money).
But as you say, let's not blow this out of proportion because at the end of the day Destiny has put on a great show and 90% of people are satisfied. At the end of the day people crowdfunded a tournament and a tournament is what they got.
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On August 13 2014 07:06 B-rye88 wrote:First: This is a grunch post. I'm not going to read all the comments to date due to lack of time and care. If the below has been brought up already and/or been resolved, feel free to ignore. Congratulations on such a successful first tournament! I'm sure it must be a big relief, as with any first venture. Secondly, thank you for such a great tournament; it was a real joy to watch! Thank you also for this; such straight-forward and transparent reporting pleases my accountant soul  . Criticisms: Money is fungible. It is at best incorrect and at worst manipulative for you to state "All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds, therefore the only money I took home was sponsor money" when reporting to the funding community, and community at large. Realistically, since total revenues were ~$7,800 and total crowd sourcing revenues were ~$6,000, your overall profit margin was $1,800 and therefore your profit margin from crowd sourcing revenues was $1,384 (18K * (60K/78K). I don't have a problem with this at all, but I don't like seeing you manipulate perceptions with spin like this. ESPA You are providing content. KESPA is, realistically, a supplier of inventory for high-end content. They own a monopoly on the biggest, baddest content on the market. You're expecting them to give you that for free, and reacting negatively that they won't. To be blunt, your post essentially is whining that they didn't see the purpose of sending their players to you. The ways to win them over would be to grant them promotion in return, or by paying them, or by being big and bad enough that they view it in their players (and theirs) best interests because missing out on your dope-ass tournament would reflect poorly on them and their reputation. They are the biggest player in the market. Deal with it. To be honest, you may have already shot yourself in the foot with this public discussion. I don't know if I'd count on seeing any KESPA players in the future, regardless of your intentions or efforts. When I address a communique to someone and they share it publicly, I view it as outright fucking rude. Their behavior was not selfish or greedy in the slightest. They are an organization centered on their own well being and the well being of their players; you cannot blame them for not catering to your interests. TakehomeFor transparencies sake, you may consider including a 'take-home' provision in the planned expenditures when crowd-funding, and explaining it on a rate per expected hours basis. If you spent even 80 hours (2 weeks) in creating this, then your hourly rate was $22.50 per hour. This alleviates the "big number" perception problem ($1,800 in profit! That's outrageous! Versus "$22.50 per hour? Shit, and he's taking on all this potential liability?) and breaks it into a number that is easily comparable; people can then just assess the idea on the basis of the estimated number of hours. It also alleviates the issues with people not funding beyond that, and protects you from the risk of insufficient take-home pay for your time and efforts. Just include it in expenses, make it reasonable, and have funding committed beyond the marker go to paying for future tournaments or added prize pool or something. The volume of my criticisms go far beyond that of my congratulations and thanks. This isn't out of hate, just more my intentions of explaining the why and recommendations of my criticisms; overall, you rock dude, and keep it up! The community (obviously) loves it!!!!
agree with this post entirely, beautifully written.
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On August 13 2014 10:41 Crot4le wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 10:33 RoninColt wrote:On August 13 2014 10:10 Crot4le wrote:On August 12 2014 09:58 TotalBiscuit wrote:@TB: I'm working voluntarily in Peru with street-kids and, I'm spending my time and money to contribute something social. I'm living off of crap, I have around 500 Dollar to spend a month for food, shelter and so on, so I definitely know what dedication and hard-work feels like. Oh my heart bleeds... Appealing to the moral highground means nothing. If anything all it does is make your perspective even less realistic. This isn't Peru and we're not doing charity work. This is the US and $1800 for a months work here is rubbish. I struggle to believe that organising an online tournament is really a months work. Take the typical 9am-5pm job. That's 8 hours a day. I highly doubt that Destiny had to put in 248 hours to organise this. I struggle to believe people continue to question the amount of money Destiny made from this tournament he organized. While, I ( and probably the majority of the community ) want to see the players receive as much money as possible to keep doing what they do best, I'd still be just as happy if Destiny made 10k from this. I think most are missing the point, that this is good for the scene either way. The fact is, he put more money in the pockets of the Players, Casters, and created more excellent content for the fans/viewers should be the only thing important in this scenario. Not to mention the NA ladder was more competitive during the qualifying stages. Considering this tournament was a success at the same time putting money in the organizers pocket to justify doing it again is fantastic news. I only hope more people will adopt this model and help grow this scene. This negativity I see constantly towards people that try to help this scene is discouraging. Oh I don't care that much either way. I didn't donate to the indiegogo so I don't have that much of a vested interest in this. At the end of the day I got to see a great tournament, which was well run with some really good casting and some exciting games. I just can see peoples' point that $1,800 is a lot of profit to pocket on the back of a tournament funded by the community. Of course Destiny should be compensated for the time he spent organising and casting the tournament. But once he is fully compensated then I do think the surplus should go towards a Destiny II after all it is on the back of community donations that he made such money (no donations, no prize pool, no tournament, no sponsorship money). But as you say, let's not blow this out of proportion because at the end of the day Destiny has put on a great show and 90% of people are satisfied. At the end of the day people crowdfunded a tournament and a tournament is what they got.
Did you miss the part where the $1800 was independent of the donated money?
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On August 13 2014 07:06 B-rye88 wrote:
Money is fungible.
It is at best incorrect and at worst manipulative for you to state "All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds, therefore the only money I took home was sponsor money" when reporting to the funding community, and community at large. Realistically, since total revenues were ~$7,800 and total crowd sourcing revenues were ~$6,000, your overall profit margin was $1,800 and therefore your profit margin from crowd sourcing revenues was $1,384 (18K * (60K/78K). I don't have a problem with this at all, but I don't like seeing you manipulate perceptions with spin like this.
I almost didn't bother to read the rest of your post (I kind of wish I didn't) because absolutely and ridiculously charged this language is, but I'll tackle it anyway.
"All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds" is entirely true. If I received 0 sponsors for this event, it wouldn't have mattered. Prize money and payments made to casters and workers were all 100% covered from crowd sourced funds. Had I received zero sponsors, I wouldn't have stolen money from the players or casters to pay myself. There is absolutely nothing false about my statement and I had announced sponsors weeks and weeks before this tournament ever went underway, even several times mentioning on various shows + my stream that "even if I don't reach my goal, I can supplement the crowd funding goal with the sponsorship money".
Your math is cute, but you're acting like I'm taking my pay as a percentage of the overall raised money, which is absolutely not true, but rather more that I was scraping my pay off of the excess I was able to raise via sponsorships. I'm not taking any of the money that was raised extra from Indiegogo as I specifically stated that money would go towards the next tournament.
There were plenty of different ways to word this post but you chose the absolute worst ways to do it, and you're spinning it out as though I've intentionally mislead and manipulated the community into feeding me more money, which is absolutely hilarious considering I am probably the single most transparent person in the entire community, except maybe TB. Please let me know if there's anyone else who's ever openly disclosed ad revenue + subscribers + money made via other revenue streams before. The insinuation that I would try to intentionally mislead the community and destroy ALL of the rapport I've built up over the years is fucking asinine, please.
On August 13 2014 07:06 B-rye88 wrote:
ESPA
You are providing content. KESPA is, realistically, a supplier of inventory for high-end content. They own a monopoly on the biggest, baddest content on the market. You're expecting them to give you that for free, and reacting negatively that they won't. To be blunt, your post essentially is whining that they didn't see the purpose of sending their players to you.
The ways to win them over would be to grant them promotion in return, or by paying them, or by being big and bad enough that they view it in their players (and theirs) best interests because missing out on your dope-ass tournament would reflect poorly on them and their reputation.
They are the biggest player in the market. Deal with it.
To be honest, you may have already shot yourself in the foot with this public discussion. I don't know if I'd count on seeing any KESPA players in the future, regardless of your intentions or efforts. When I address a communique to someone and they share it publicly, I view it as outright fucking rude.
Their behavior was not selfish or greedy in the slightest. They are an organization centered on their own well being and the well being of their players; you cannot blame them for not catering to your interests.
That's fine. I would stake money that I will exist in the Starcraft 2 community longer than KeSPA will, considering how SC2 is doing in Korea, if you want to go that route. I provided plenty of legit reasoning here concerning why I disagree with their decision, but if you want it to boil down to "oh theyre the big bois u gotta just let them do watever lol" then that's cool, too, but you have to realize you aren't making any legitimate arguments, you're essentially just saying "well theyr big n bad so dey can do wat dey want lol".
The fact that you would even insinuate that I would pay KeSPA to have their players in my tournament is fucking hilarious, in its own right.
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Thank you for putting off this tournament Steven. I enjoyed every single day (and somehow missed every game that the spammer/disconnecter/asshole created issues) and I am hopeful that the next tournament, if you still plan on having it, will be even greater
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I find it interesting how people actively disagree with the idea that an organizer should get paid for doing his job. I think the method of crowdfunding carries with it this idea of altruistic purpose; that if you reach out to people for help funding something, you're automatically doing it free of personal motive like some sort of eSports Jesus.
I don't want to break any bubbles, but that idea is bullshit. While the motive might be pure, the act of soliciting funds for the purpose of organizing something doesn't turn someone into a demigod... Even if you're dealing with a crowdfunded tournament, you still need to fucking eat. Doing something with money, no matter where that money comes from, is a job that takes hours out of your workday, and if you're doing that work, you deserve compensation. Organizing nice things for the community does not exempt one from basic costs of living. Besides, and I'm trying not to be inflammatory here, I think a large part of the community has a juvenile and sheltered idea of how much living an independent life AND doing shit for the community actually costs.
If Destiny worked X hours to organize this stuff, then Destiny deserves to reap at the very least a minimal profit for it... Because his time as an entertainer and organizer is valuable. It's easy to elevate the players - for fuck's sake, there's a semi-serious discussion in this thread about how FUCKING KeSPA SHOULD BE PAID TO SEND PLAYERS - but it's important to remember that everyone who puts hours into eSports are taking hours out of the time they have to feed themselves and their families.
Going into this tournament, I never thought I'd find myself defending Destiny at the end of it, because really, my experiences with 2012 Destiny had soured my image of him by a large amount. I have to say, however, that the amount of transparency and professionalism in regards to organization has won me over, and I feel compelled to voice my support for 2014 Destiny in this regard.
Seriously, the guy spent a large amount of time making this stuff happen. Tournaments do not fucking run themselves, no matter how much money they get. Should he not - like the casters and (some of, by virtue of the competitive system) the players - expect some sort of compensation?
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But I think you (and Destiny) are denying a fair point, which is that money IS fungible and the way the accounting works can look misleading. If you read the OP as is, it looks like Destiny got sponsorship money and just pocketed the money, since the expenses had already been paid for through crowd-sourcing. That's probably not what the sponsors expected when they supported the tournament and almost certainly not what they want in the future.
I think it would have been more fair to include paying himself in the expenses and come out with a smaller amount of net profit, most of which will be reinvested in the next one. Or just come out and say he made a decent profit and is only reinvesting x% of it to the next one, cashing out the rest for himself.
The word "manipulative" is far too strong and B-rye88 used it twice, so I can see how it would offend. But I think there is validity to his point.
IMO Destiny is getting a bit unwound in his opinions about Kespa and would be recommended to just stop talking about them altogether at this point, just leaving it that he has a professional disagreement with the way they handled things and it has been voiced.
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I think it´s because many people in the community are still very young and cannot imagine or appreciate the struggle of having to provide for yourself. To a person who has to pay their bills every month, the notion of working with no pay seems absolutely ridiculous. But I guess some people think it´s not work, because it´s some Starcraft and Starcraft is fun-time.
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On August 13 2014 14:48 coverpunch wrote:
But I think you (and Destiny) are denying a fair point, which is that money IS fungible and the way the accounting works can look misleading. If you read the OP as is, it looks like Destiny got sponsorship money and just pocketed the money, since the expenses had already been paid for through crowd-sourcing. That's probably not what the sponsors expected when they supported the tournament and almost certainly not what they want in the future.
Really?? Because if you've read through this thread you will see one of the sponsors stating that they were happy with where the money went and pretty much said he hopes to have the opportunity to sponsor Destiny II.....
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Korea (South)169 Posts
On August 13 2014 13:33 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 07:06 B-rye88 wrote:
Money is fungible.
It is at best incorrect and at worst manipulative for you to state "All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds, therefore the only money I took home was sponsor money" when reporting to the funding community, and community at large. Realistically, since total revenues were ~$7,800 and total crowd sourcing revenues were ~$6,000, your overall profit margin was $1,800 and therefore your profit margin from crowd sourcing revenues was $1,384 (18K * (60K/78K). I don't have a problem with this at all, but I don't like seeing you manipulate perceptions with spin like this.
I almost didn't bother to read the rest of your post (I kind of wish I didn't) because absolutely and ridiculously charged this language is, but I'll tackle it anyway. "All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds" is entirely true. If I received 0 sponsors for this event, it wouldn't have mattered. Prize money and payments made to casters and workers were all 100% covered from crowd sourced funds. Had I received zero sponsors, I wouldn't have stolen money from the players or casters to pay myself. There is absolutely nothing false about my statement and I had announced sponsors weeks and weeks before this tournament ever went underway, even several times mentioning on various shows + my stream that "even if I don't reach my goal, I can supplement the crowd funding goal with the sponsorship money". Your math is cute, but you're acting like I'm taking my pay as a percentage of the overall raised money, which is absolutely not true, but rather more that I was scraping my pay off of the excess I was able to raise via sponsorships. I'm not taking any of the money that was raised extra from Indiegogo as I specifically stated that money would go towards the next tournament. There were plenty of different ways to word this post but you chose the absolute worst ways to do it, and you're spinning it out as though I've intentionally mislead and manipulated the community into feeding me more money, which is absolutely hilarious considering I am probably the single most transparent person in the entire community, except maybe TB. Please let me know if there's anyone else who's ever openly disclosed ad revenue + subscribers + money made via other revenue streams before. The insinuation that I would try to intentionally mislead the community and destroy ALL of the rapport I've built up over the years is fucking asinine, please. Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 07:06 B-rye88 wrote:
ESPA
You are providing content. KESPA is, realistically, a supplier of inventory for high-end content. They own a monopoly on the biggest, baddest content on the market. You're expecting them to give you that for free, and reacting negatively that they won't. To be blunt, your post essentially is whining that they didn't see the purpose of sending their players to you.
The ways to win them over would be to grant them promotion in return, or by paying them, or by being big and bad enough that they view it in their players (and theirs) best interests because missing out on your dope-ass tournament would reflect poorly on them and their reputation.
They are the biggest player in the market. Deal with it.
To be honest, you may have already shot yourself in the foot with this public discussion. I don't know if I'd count on seeing any KESPA players in the future, regardless of your intentions or efforts. When I address a communique to someone and they share it publicly, I view it as outright fucking rude.
Their behavior was not selfish or greedy in the slightest. They are an organization centered on their own well being and the well being of their players; you cannot blame them for not catering to your interests.
That's fine. I would stake money that I will exist in the Starcraft 2 community longer than KeSPA will, considering how SC2 is doing in Korea, if you want to go that route. I provided plenty of legit reasoning here concerning why I disagree with their decision, but if you want it to boil down to "oh theyre the big bois u gotta just let them do watever lol" then that's cool, too, but you have to realize you aren't making any legitimate arguments, you're essentially just saying "well theyr big n bad so dey can do wat dey want lol". The fact that you would even insinuate that I would pay KeSPA to have their players in my tournament is fucking hilarious, in its own right.
I would like to correct statements that Destiny made insinuating interest in Starcraft II e-sports is declining in Korea. Starcraft II Proleague this year saw massive growth from last year in viewership numbers, almost doubling, and the amount of people who have searched for it on naver, the most popular search engine in Korea, grew tremendously. After the finals Proleague was the number one searched topic on naver, which is huge considering naver has 75% of the market share in Korea. Starcraft II has seen massive growth this year and we hope to continue growing it.
Regarding the size of the venue, the venue was not filled last year. This year it was a smaller venue, but it reached way past the maximum capacity of the venue. Because it was outside and in such a populated area many people walking by would stop and watch. Some of these people watched Broodwars in the past and they would stop and talk with their friends reminiscing about the Broodwar players of past and them playing when they were younger. It was an amazing event and
an amazing location to hold the finals as well as grow interest for casual fans or people who do not watch Starcraft II at all.
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On August 13 2014 15:22 Chuddinater wrote:
<words>
I'm impressed by the civility of this comment, even if I'm a little bit disappointed that I didn't get to see a KeSPA representative throw an inflammatory fit this time on TL either. 
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About kespa:
Other than the first reason: proleague final affects lots of factors, I don't see how any other arguments /inquiries were valid.
It's a crowd funded tournament, they should be able to deduct this will at least have a reasonable number of viewership and interest, especially considering destiny is one of the top streamer in the sc2 scene and had been one for a very long period of time.
That plus the great caster line ups and great thoughtful formats.
There were no sponsor conflicting with their own AFAIK
If kespa is concern about the growth of sc2, then this should be considered:
It was not a situation as to who benefits more, it was a situation where both can benefit, all while the organizer is taking a considerable bigger risk.
Even if it ran terribly, what was there to lose for kespa players?
I don't recall any situation where players are blamed for poor quality of tournament.
Maybe difficulty to arrange match times? Or dealing with lag? I honestly don't know, since we had quite a lot of great offline tournaments anyway.
It just seems to me someone on kespa side is not doing their CBA correctly.
Not to mention how the email could have been phrased so much better.
Instead of "we don't trust you, we gonna lose out in this, do you even have sponsor bro" general tone of message, it could had been far simpler "we would love to have more information before we make any call, what are your estimates for viewer numbers"
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TBH, After reading the OP I had a new found respect for Destiny, but his responses in this thread have made me lose a lot of that again. He seems to not understand at all why KeSPA said no, and continues to passively insult them despite Chuddinator actually being a really nice guy answering questions and clearing up misunderstandings.
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[QUOTE]On August 13 2014 08:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
[QUOTE]On August 13 2014 07:06 B-rye88 wrote:
By staying transparent and keeping your take-home comparatively modest you help uphold the image that you have good intentions (making money is a part of that). [/QUOTE]
So Nation Wars, made a tournament, watched by 1k live audience, and 20k online. They gathered 80k€ from ticket sales for attending 4 team matches live, and 85k€ more for hosting 6 days of online games, and 1 yet to come.
Cash prize is 28k€...
So let's say ticket sales covered the venue, then management/organizers pocketed 57k€ out of 85k€ for their hard work of 7 days of stream.That is 2/3 of the crowd funding money.... Not to forget Day9 who said he wasn't payed. Not to forget their sponsors who may or may not have been added to the crowd funding total. Do you really think that Destiny's share of 25% isn't modest? Do you think he will come a do a second tournament if you payed him with IHOP coupons?
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On August 13 2014 15:22 Chuddinater wrote:
I would like to correct statements that Destiny made insinuating interest in Starcraft II e-sports is declining in Korea. Starcraft II Proleague this year saw massive growth from last year in viewership numbers, almost doubling, and the amount of people who have searched for it on naver, the most popular search engine in Korea, grew tremendously. After the finals Proleague was the number one searched topic on naver, which is huge considering naver has 75% of the market share in Korea. Starcraft II has seen massive growth this year and we hope to continue growing it.
Regarding the size of the venue, the venue was not filled last year. This year it was a smaller venue, but it reached way past the maximum capacity of the venue. Because it was outside and in such a populated area many people walking by would stop and watch. Some of these people watched Broodwars in the past and they would stop and talk with their friends reminiscing about the Broodwar players of past and them playing when they were younger. It was an amazing event and
an amazing location to hold the finals as well as grow interest for casual fans or people who do not watch Starcraft II at all.
Chud if you had managed to keep this level of professionalism in your original email, all the KeSPA-related controversy in this thread never would have happened. This type of thing negatively impacts how KeSPA is viewed outside of Korea, which is not in anyone's interest, and you are partly to blame for that. I don't know how much you care, but it doesn't help you at all to have responded using the language that you did.
Simply stating "we are not interested in sending players at this time, but we would consider involvement in your tournaments in the future" with no reason would have sufficed (reasons would have helped), and tbh I don't care what Destiny says about him not caring about the language used, truth is you came off as a total dick, it pissed him off, and the situation is what it is today. This would have still been a truthful response and accomplished a lot more than what you did. My opinion of KeSPA has definitely been lowered by following this thread.
Of course, given how you responded in the first place, you probably don't care.
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On August 13 2014 16:39 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 15:22 Chuddinater wrote:
I would like to correct statements that Destiny made insinuating interest in Starcraft II e-sports is declining in Korea. Starcraft II Proleague this year saw massive growth from last year in viewership numbers, almost doubling, and the amount of people who have searched for it on naver, the most popular search engine in Korea, grew tremendously. After the finals Proleague was the number one searched topic on naver, which is huge considering naver has 75% of the market share in Korea. Starcraft II has seen massive growth this year and we hope to continue growing it.
Regarding the size of the venue, the venue was not filled last year. This year it was a smaller venue, but it reached way past the maximum capacity of the venue. Because it was outside and in such a populated area many people walking by would stop and watch. Some of these people watched Broodwars in the past and they would stop and talk with their friends reminiscing about the Broodwar players of past and them playing when they were younger. It was an amazing event and
an amazing location to hold the finals as well as grow interest for casual fans or people who do not watch Starcraft II at all. Chud if you had managed to keep this level of professionalism in your original email, all the KeSPA-related controversy in this thread never would have happened. This type of thing negatively impacts how KeSPA is viewed outside of Korea, which is not in anyone's interest, and you are partly to blame for that. I don't know how much you care, but it doesn't help you at all to have responded using the language that you did. Simply stating "we are not interested in sending players at this time, but we would consider involvement in your tournaments in the future" with no reason would have sufficed (reasons would have helped), and tbh I don't care what Destiny says about him not caring about the language used, truth is you came off as a total dick, it pissed him off, and the situation is what it is today. This would have still been a truthful response and accomplished a lot more than what you did. My opinion of KeSPA has definitely been lowered by following this thread. Of course, given how you responded in the first place, you probably don't care.
I disagree, there was nothing disrespectful in the first e-mail. It was a pretty standard corporate response.
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Destiny, my advice - and you're welcome to ignore it, that should go without saying - is if you still don't understand why so many people think Kespa is in the right (or at the very least not in the wrong, which is almost as good in this case), you should just pretend that you do get it and agree anyway, before this situation turns sour. Chalk it up to an unfortunate misunderstanding and let it be that, as frustrating as it may be for you.
On August 13 2014 15:59 Grovbolle wrote:
TBH, After reading the OP I had a new found respect for Destiny, but his responses in this thread have made me lose a lot of that again. He seems to not understand at all why KeSPA said no, and continues to passively insult them despite Chuddinator actually being a really nice guy answering questions and clearing up misunderstandings.
This so much. Whatever good will has been generated is in danger of dissipating hard and fast.
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On August 13 2014 16:50 pure.Wasted wrote:Destiny, my advice - and you're welcome to ignore it, that should go without saying - is if you still don't understand why so many people think Kespa is in the right (or at the very least not in the wrong, which is almost as good in this case), you should just pretend that you do get it and agree anyway, before this situation turns sour. Chalk it up to an unfortunate misunderstanding and let it be that, as frustrating as it may be for you. Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 15:59 Grovbolle wrote:
TBH, After reading the OP I had a new found respect for Destiny, but his responses in this thread have made me lose a lot of that again. He seems to not understand at all why KeSPA said no, and continues to passively insult them despite Chuddinator actually being a really nice guy answering questions and clearing up misunderstandings. This so much. Whatever good will has been generated is in danger of dissipating hard and fast.
If this was a comic book: there's an inner struggle between 2011-destiny and 2014-destiny, and though the latter is still in control, all this stress is going to unwind him and he will re-emerge as the dreaded 2011-destiny that caused drama & wanton destruction everywhere.
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On August 13 2014 16:50 pure.Wasted wrote:Destiny, my advice - and you're welcome to ignore it, that should go without saying - is if you still don't understand why so many people think Kespa is in the right (or at the very least not in the wrong, which is almost as good in this case), you should just pretend that you do get it and agree anyway, before this situation turns sour. Chalk it up to an unfortunate misunderstanding and let it be that, as frustrating as it may be for you. Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 15:59 Grovbolle wrote:
TBH, After reading the OP I had a new found respect for Destiny, but his responses in this thread have made me lose a lot of that again. He seems to not understand at all why KeSPA said no, and continues to passively insult them despite Chuddinator actually being a really nice guy answering questions and clearing up misunderstandings. This so much. Whatever good will has been generated is in danger of dissipating hard and fast.
You're welcome to your own opinion. If all of your respect for me dissipates because I disagree with the way KeSPA does things (which, by the way, isn't even close to a unique opinion, but a commonly shared one that's ran all the way back to BW days), I never really valued your respect much in the first place.
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EPT
