EPT
"Destiny I" Financial Report - Page 27
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
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KanoCoke
Japan863 Posts
On August 13 2014 05:49 n0ah wrote: Does anyone know what music Destiny was playing during the in-between breaks ? He has the same taste in music as I do, but I didn't know some of the artists he was playing. Was it his last.fm account? There were formerly random compositions he came up with on the piano that his musically-gifted subscribers would turn into actual music. | ||
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B-rye88
Canada168 Posts
Congratulations on such a successful first tournament! I'm sure it must be a big relief, as with any first venture. Secondly, thank you for such a great tournament; it was a real joy to watch! Thank you also for this; such straight-forward and transparent reporting pleases my accountant soul . Criticisms: Money is fungible. It is at best incorrect and at worst manipulative for you to state "All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds, therefore the only money I took home was sponsor money" when reporting to the funding community, and community at large. Realistically, since total revenues were ~$7,800 and total crowd sourcing revenues were ~$6,000, your overall profit margin was $1,800 and therefore your profit margin from crowd sourcing revenues was $1,384 (18K * (60K/78K). I don't have a problem with this at all, but I don't like seeing you manipulate perceptions with spin like this. ESPA You are providing content. KESPA is, realistically, a supplier of inventory for high-end content. They own a monopoly on the biggest, baddest content on the market. You're expecting them to give you that for free, and reacting negatively that they won't. To be blunt, your post essentially is whining that they didn't see the purpose of sending their players to you. The ways to win them over would be to grant them promotion in return, or by paying them, or by being big and bad enough that they view it in their players (and theirs) best interests because missing out on your dope-ass tournament would reflect poorly on them and their reputation. They are the biggest player in the market. Deal with it. To be honest, you may have already shot yourself in the foot with this public discussion. I don't know if I'd count on seeing any KESPA players in the future, regardless of your intentions or efforts. When I address a communique to someone and they share it publicly, I view it as outright fucking rude. Their behavior was not selfish or greedy in the slightest. They are an organization centered on their own well being and the well being of their players; you cannot blame them for not catering to your interests. Takehome For transparencies sake, you may consider including a 'take-home' provision in the planned expenditures when crowd-funding, and explaining it on a rate per expected hours basis. If you spent even 80 hours (2 weeks) in creating this, then your hourly rate was $22.50 per hour. This alleviates the "big number" perception problem ($1,800 in profit! That's outrageous! Versus "$22.50 per hour? Shit, and he's taking on all this potential liability?) and breaks it into a number that is easily comparable; people can then just assess the idea on the basis of the estimated number of hours. It also alleviates the issues with people not funding beyond that, and protects you from the risk of insufficient take-home pay for your time and efforts. Just include it in expenses, make it reasonable, and have funding committed beyond the marker go to paying for future tournaments or added prize pool or something. The volume of my criticisms go far beyond that of my congratulations and thanks. This isn't out of hate, just more my intentions of explaining the why and recommendations of my criticisms; overall, you rock dude, and keep it up! The community (obviously) loves it!!!! | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
Re Kespa: They are the big dogs and they know it. Their players get big viewer numbers. Get on your knees and beg. ;p | ||
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KingWilhelm
11 Posts
@all you guy who think Kespas actions where not good for the players, think about it: They can say they act in a way to give their sponsors the exposer they want. (the sponsors don't care about foreign exposer at all!) So they don't send their players to meaningless tournaments (sry destiny but exposer in your tournament had no value for any of the Kespa sponsors). And know think about it: as a sponsor would you sponsor a organization, which acts according to our interests, or a organization, which acts according to third party interests (like players)? Think you would take the first one. So if Kespa acts as they did they please the sponsors and so maintain functionality which is good for the players as they will get paid :D [please sponsors in the sense of: "we will not do it as it is not beneficial for our sponsors".] PS: destiny don't post e-mails... it may be not a big deal in the US, but depending on where you are this could even punished by law... and it is really disrespectful in some cultures (don't know how it is for Korean people but I would not do businesses which anybody who would leak my e-mails). | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On August 12 2014 11:29 TotalBiscuit wrote: This is a nice thing to put on the pile of "reasons we can't have transparency", along with the TaKe logs, DH Moscow thread and many other examples over the years. If anyone asks you why so many teams and personalities stick to PR-like statements, you can point them directly to this. The community only wants transparency when it's convenient for them. Erm, I strongly disagree. Being transparent is a beautiful thing, but pushing a conversation ("conversation" implies more than just yourself being involved) to the public requires the approval of the others who are involved. If that does not happen, you simply hurt privacy and thus take possibilities off of that part. There is absolutely nothing that justifies taking a conversation to the public, and in this scenario, Destiny might indeed have taken an arrow to his knee shot by his very own self, simply because KESPA will think twice what implications are now coming towards reputation, whether they take part in Destiny II or not. PR-like statements protect the privacy of conversations. That is especially important if, like it is in this case, the parties could not come to an agreement. You (or rather Genna) made already experiences with making conversations public. Would you say that publishing the take logs damaged your relation to Take, or improved it? | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On August 13 2014 07:45 boxerfred wrote: Erm, I strongly disagree. Being transparent is a beautiful thing, but pushing a conversation ("conversation" implies more than just yourself being involved) to the public requires the approval of the others who are involved. If that does not happen, you simply hurt privacy and thus take possibilities off of that part. There is absolutely nothing that justifies taking a conversation to the public, and in this scenario, Destiny might indeed have taken an arrow to his knee shot by his very own self, simply because KESPA will think twice what implications are now coming towards reputation, whether they take part in Destiny II or not. PR-like statements protect the privacy of conversations. That is especially important if, like it is in this case, the parties could not come to an agreement. You (or rather Genna) made already experiences with making conversations public. Would you say that publishing the take logs damaged your relation to Take, or improved it? TaKe fanbois hounded my wife out of eSports over this false idea that "Being transparent is a beautiful thing, but pushing a conversation ("conversation" implies more than just yourself being involved) to the public requires the approval of the others who are involved", which is completely untrue. As I recall correctly you were one of the people involved. I'd have quit the scene that day if I didnt have my players to support. The SC2 community gets exactly what it deserves most of the time. The problem is not our transparency, it is that the SC2 community in general is too immature to handle the truth. | ||
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mikumegurine
Canada3145 Posts
On August 13 2014 01:47 orvinreyes wrote: Ok cool, another tourney allegedly with KeSPA players. 3 possibilities: 1. Either KeSPA does not know about this, players risk penalties or 2. Pughy has leverage through relationships with players (?) 3. Pughy actually negotiated this properly with KeSPA I don't see any official statements from parties involved, so yeah you're right let's see how this unfolds Pughy's tournament says its Korean focused, and has Korean sponsor...so this might be the difference? | ||
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duckTemplar
United States158 Posts
Will probably participate the crowdfunding next time. | ||
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felisconcolori
United States6168 Posts
And I assure you, if the IRS ever wanted to get nit picking, they would. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23245 Posts
On August 13 2014 07:06 B-rye88 wrote: First: This is a grunch post. I'm not going to read all the comments to date due to lack of time and care. If the below has been brought up already and/or been resolved, feel free to ignore. Congratulations on such a successful first tournament! I'm sure it must be a big relief, as with any first venture. Secondly, thank you for such a great tournament; it was a real joy to watch! Thank you also for this; such straight-forward and transparent reporting pleases my accountant soul . Criticisms: Money is fungible. It is at best incorrect and at worst manipulative for you to state "All expenses were covered by crowd sourced funds, therefore the only money I took home was sponsor money" when reporting to the funding community, and community at large. Realistically, since total revenues were ~$7,800 and total crowd sourcing revenues were ~$6,000, your overall profit margin was $1,800 and therefore your profit margin from crowd sourcing revenues was $1,384 (18K * (60K/78K). I don't have a problem with this at all, but I don't like seeing you manipulate perceptions with spin like this. ESPA You are providing content. KESPA is, realistically, a supplier of inventory for high-end content. They own a monopoly on the biggest, baddest content on the market. You're expecting them to give you that for free, and reacting negatively that they won't. To be blunt, your post essentially is whining that they didn't see the purpose of sending their players to you. The ways to win them over would be to grant them promotion in return, or by paying them, or by being big and bad enough that they view it in their players (and theirs) best interests because missing out on your dope-ass tournament would reflect poorly on them and their reputation. They are the biggest player in the market. Deal with it. To be honest, you may have already shot yourself in the foot with this public discussion. I don't know if I'd count on seeing any KESPA players in the future, regardless of your intentions or efforts. When I address a communique to someone and they share it publicly, I view it as outright fucking rude. Their behavior was not selfish or greedy in the slightest. They are an organization centered on their own well being and the well being of their players; you cannot blame them for not catering to your interests. Takehome For transparencies sake, you may consider including a 'take-home' provision in the planned expenditures when crowd-funding, and explaining it on a rate per expected hours basis. If you spent even 80 hours (2 weeks) in creating this, then your hourly rate was $22.50 per hour. This alleviates the "big number" perception problem ($1,800 in profit! That's outrageous! Versus "$22.50 per hour? Shit, and he's taking on all this potential liability?) and breaks it into a number that is easily comparable; people can then just assess the idea on the basis of the estimated number of hours. It also alleviates the issues with people not funding beyond that, and protects you from the risk of insufficient take-home pay for your time and efforts. Just include it in expenses, make it reasonable, and have funding committed beyond the marker go to paying for future tournaments or added prize pool or something. The volume of my criticisms go far beyond that of my congratulations and thanks. This isn't out of hate, just more my intentions of explaining the why and recommendations of my criticisms; overall, you rock dude, and keep it up! The community (obviously) loves it!!!! Didn't crunch the numbers myself but I noticed the same thing ( I do a lot of work with charities so the creative accounting is something I am reasonably familiar with). I didn't watch the tourny myself, but I like the entire concept. I really like how transparent you are trying to be, and I suspect people are right when they suggest there are many who won't like it. I like this persons suggestion of breaking down hourly work. It could serve a lot of positive purposes. It could serve to document your exploits for yours and others later enjoyment. It could serve as a template for yourself and others regarding the process. It could also work as a personal checklist to help make sure you don't miss the little things you want to get done also, along with what he suggests. Personally it's mostly a percentages thing for me. Where did the revenue come from/where did the revenue go. So long as you don't find yourself rewarding yourself more than the players, I think you are fine. It's not that you wouldn't deserve it, it's just that I think the community wan't to see the money go to the players. As with any professional (unique talent) environment (where the numbers are remotely available), people like to see the talent pulling in the lions share of the revenue. Obviously it's not a 1:1 comparison but it starts to seem exploitative if too much revenue goes towards 'management' and not enough to the talent. People like to be part of things they feel are 'good'. By staying transparent and keeping your take-home comparatively modest you help uphold the image that you have good intentions (making money is a part of that). It's that image (along with quality content delivered well) that will grow your success. People will flock to be a part of something they perceive as positive in their community, you will see your offers for volunteers and support come out of the woodwork (from qualified people/sponsors too). I just read the OP and the last page or so and wanted to offer my 2 cents and thank you for your work. But after thinking about it more I am going to read more about what you did and am definitely going to tune in for the next one. | ||
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Beavo
Canada293 Posts
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On August 13 2014 09:39 Beavo wrote: Wondering if you guys were Kespa, would you ever work with Destiny again after this? Since they didn't work with him in the first place I dont really see that being too much of a problem. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On August 13 2014 09:39 Beavo wrote: Wondering if you guys were Kespa, would you ever work with Destiny again after this? they wouldn't work with such tournaments like this to begin with so that is a mute point. | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 13 2014 07:06 B-rye88 wrote: KESPA You are providing content. KESPA is, realistically, a supplier of inventory for high-end content. They own a monopoly on the biggest, baddest content on the market. You're expecting them to give you that for free, and reacting negatively that they won't. To be blunt, your post essentially is whining that they didn't see the purpose of sending their players to you. The ways to win them over would be to grant them promotion in return, or by paying them, or by being big and bad enough that they view it in their players (and theirs) best interests because missing out on your dope-ass tournament would reflect poorly on them and their reputation. They are the biggest player in the market. Deal with it. To be honest, you may have already shot yourself in the foot with this public discussion. I don't know if I'd count on seeing any KESPA players in the future, regardless of your intentions or efforts. When I address a communique to someone and they share it publicly, I view it as outright fucking rude. Their behavior was not selfish or greedy in the slightest. They are an organization centered on their own well being and the well being of their players; you cannot blame them for not catering to your interests. I think you hit the nail on the head here. You can't simply expect KeSPA to happily send their players to your first event and then be too butthurt so as to let your pride get in the way of further discussions next time around at the expense of your tournament. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On August 13 2014 02:18 Insane wrote: Surprising how many people here sympathize with KeSPA over this situation. While I can see that people saying Destiny wasn't fully discreet are correct, ultimately I'm inclined to agree with him that even if KeSPA is doing fine in other games, SC2 is struggling. Maybe they don't care about having SC2 continue due to their success in other games, but it sucks for those who do care about SC2. Their success doesn't rest upon one game and it's insignificant in the bigger picture. To the hosts okay, but in reality its small beans. I don't even see the debate in this. ._. | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On August 12 2014 09:58 TotalBiscuit wrote: Oh my heart bleeds... Appealing to the moral highground means nothing. If anything all it does is make your perspective even less realistic. This isn't Peru and we're not doing charity work. This is the US and $1800 for a months work here is rubbish. I struggle to believe that organising an online tournament is really a months work. Take the typical 9am-5pm job. That's 8 hours a day. I highly doubt that Destiny had to put in 248 hours to organise this. | ||
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Beavo
Canada293 Posts
On August 13 2014 09:47 TotalBiscuit wrote: Since they didn't work with him in the first place I dont really see that being too much of a problem. I don't really think that saying no once equates to never being open to working with him again. I think with this response they are never going to be open to that possibility but that is just me. | ||
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Trozz
Canada3454 Posts
Youtube isn't updated. I wanna watch this /; | ||
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