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On August 12 2014 01:56 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 01:45 Redkeekee wrote:
Frankly, I am shocked that so much of the community is voting against Kespa players over a matter of personal feelings. Sure Kespa is acting like a corporate powerhouse and maybe their communication seems a little petty, which is likely due to language barrier, but guess what: In Korea esports IS A MUCH BIGGER DEAL. They ARE the biggest organization in esports for a reason, and cutting off your nose to spite your face is exactly what you will end up doing if you refuse to build a relationship with them.
Please, Destiny, realize that this is a business transaction to Kespa and nothing more. Build esports into a professional scene where internet personalities' feelings are not the driving force behind major decisions. I work in corporate America, so perhaps I have a different view compared to many others, but in my world this is just another day at the office. My boss budgets my time for what it is to him, dollars divided by efficiency. Time is money and Kespa has the right to manage their players time as they wish. Some extra prize money that the players may not even make depending on their placing in the tournament may be worth less to Kespa than their players practicing for their next event or whatever preparation they want them working on. Kespa does not make most of their money off the foreign scene, so having several top tier players spend 10 hours prepping for and playing in a foriegn tournament that they could just scrub out of and make very little money is worth much less than having them spend those 10 hours prepping for a national scene a few months away with much more of their money at stake such as pro-league or code S. It may seem trivial to plan so far ahead but time is money, as said before, and every dollar counts in business. Refusing to work with Kespa over this will not only hurt yourself, but also the scene as a whole. I keep seeing this a lot, but this has nothing to do with personal feelings, it's 100% business oriented. I have a product (my tournament) that I want to be successful. This product also offers players a very easy way to make money - all they have to do is play in an online tournament for 3 days (assuming they make it to at least the semi-finals. There's a considerable amount of "risk" that has to be taken in regards to the investment of the product. I (along with the community crowd-funding, to some extent) am shouldering almost all of that "risk" in the hope for a potential payout. If the tournament is a large success, then my risk was worth it. If it's a massive failure, then I lose everything I risk, which in this case means damage to my brand plus community backlash plus the inability for me to crowd fund a second tournament. KeSPA had the opportunity to "help" me with my brand for virtually nothing. Sending any KeSPA players, even b-teamers, could have bolstered viewership for the tournament. They are only playing online. It's an easy opportunity for them to make money. It's not risking or endangering their brand really much at all. It's not like this is a KeSPA sanctioned or KeSPA sponsored tournament. For them to completely forgo even sending b-teamers to my tournament means they had zero desire to involved in the investment part of the tournament, even though the "risk" for them was nearly non-existent and the "reward "(players earning money, plus positive exposure to KeSPA's player's team's brands etc...on Gameheart) could have been decent. If I'm happy with the viewership that I received for this tournament, why on earth would I reward KeSPA by inviting them now that the risk has been largely mitigated instead of just inviting similar people from last time? Liquid and EG were both kind to me in setting up invites for my tournament; I would much rather have Bunny/Taeja in my tournament since Liquid helped me set the first one up in regards to giving me access to their players vs letting KeSPA leech off of the success of a tournament that they didn't help whatsoever. This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
I think your perfectly right!
KeSPA had literally no risk and refused to help even a little. The Proleague Season is over, many KeSPA-Players should be fine with their scedule and still compete in your tournament. Wich was awesome!! I´m fine with you earning money with it, thats how it should be.
Cheer for you!
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On August 12 2014 01:56 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 01:45 Redkeekee wrote:
Frankly, I am shocked that so much of the community is voting against Kespa players over a matter of personal feelings. Sure Kespa is acting like a corporate powerhouse and maybe their communication seems a little petty, which is likely due to language barrier, but guess what: In Korea esports IS A MUCH BIGGER DEAL. They ARE the biggest organization in esports for a reason, and cutting off your nose to spite your face is exactly what you will end up doing if you refuse to build a relationship with them.
Please, Destiny, realize that this is a business transaction to Kespa and nothing more. Build esports into a professional scene where internet personalities' feelings are not the driving force behind major decisions. I work in corporate America, so perhaps I have a different view compared to many others, but in my world this is just another day at the office. My boss budgets my time for what it is to him, dollars divided by efficiency. Time is money and Kespa has the right to manage their players time as they wish. Some extra prize money that the players may not even make depending on their placing in the tournament may be worth less to Kespa than their players practicing for their next event or whatever preparation they want them working on. Kespa does not make most of their money off the foreign scene, so having several top tier players spend 10 hours prepping for and playing in a foriegn tournament that they could just scrub out of and make very little money is worth much less than having them spend those 10 hours prepping for a national scene a few months away with much more of their money at stake such as pro-league or code S. It may seem trivial to plan so far ahead but time is money, as said before, and every dollar counts in business. Refusing to work with Kespa over this will not only hurt yourself, but also the scene as a whole. I keep seeing this a lot, but this has nothing to do with personal feelings, it's 100% business oriented. I have a product (my tournament) that I want to be successful. This product also offers players a very easy way to make money - all they have to do is play in an online tournament for 3 days (assuming they make it to at least the semi-finals. This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
I agree, and voted no in the poll. There's plenty of good games to be had without Kespa. If Destiny IV or something becomes really large you should re-evaluate because having the best players makes for better overall skill level in the games, but for a 'simple' online tournament this is no way a requirement as the viewer level showed. Your time is better spent on perfecting production and casting etc than worrying about all the Kespa rules and nitpicks.
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On August 12 2014 01:42 Yakikorosu wrote:
I do think that if you want to foster good relationships with KeSPA, posting their personal e-mail to you on a public forum, even if you refrain from cursing them out about it, isn't a very smart thing to do. If I were a KeSPA representative I'd think twice of negotiating entries for players into a tournament where the organizer may randomly decide to publicize the entire conversation to The Internet.
On the other hand maybe it will stop parties (not just Kespa) from acting like dicks behind closed doors
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It has been an entertaining tournament, interesting read before and after the tournament. I think for the next run (along with crowdfunding and sponsor deals) that it would be reasonable to run an ad before as well as after the 5 minute breaks without ruining the viewer experience.
I also think that the $1 800 "profit" is not much money considering all the work he put into this and the fact that this is a limited event that could probably only happen a few times / year. If anyone would consider doing this on a regular base (like every month) the profit would have to be bigger for sure.
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If anything, $1800 seems low for organizing and running a 6-day event. Between the pre-planning, the 12 hour days during the tournament, and the opportunity cost (can't take on other projects during that time), $3-4k seems more reasonable.
Not anyone can put together a tournament like this. It takes organization, marketing, and crisis management skills in addition to the charisma required to draw in viewers. Instead of complaining that someone else is making money to provide you with free content, maybe try putting on your own tournament and see how it goes mmkay?
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In my opinion, Kespa is acting like the players are some kind of artists like actors or idols, not like pro-gamers. People don't pay them to show up for parties and events, it is a tournament and the players probably want to play and have more chances to win prize money, it is not usual for the kespa players to compete in tournaments with good prize money outside GSL. And in this case, they could even do it in the comfort of their teamhouses!
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On August 12 2014 01:56 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 01:45 Redkeekee wrote:
Frankly, I am shocked that so much of the community is voting against Kespa players over a matter of personal feelings. Sure Kespa is acting like a corporate powerhouse and maybe their communication seems a little petty, which is likely due to language barrier, but guess what: In Korea esports IS A MUCH BIGGER DEAL. They ARE the biggest organization in esports for a reason, and cutting off your nose to spite your face is exactly what you will end up doing if you refuse to build a relationship with them.
Please, Destiny, realize that this is a business transaction to Kespa and nothing more. Build esports into a professional scene where internet personalities' feelings are not the driving force behind major decisions. I work in corporate America, so perhaps I have a different view compared to many others, but in my world this is just another day at the office. My boss budgets my time for what it is to him, dollars divided by efficiency. Time is money and Kespa has the right to manage their players time as they wish. Some extra prize money that the players may not even make depending on their placing in the tournament may be worth less to Kespa than their players practicing for their next event or whatever preparation they want them working on. Kespa does not make most of their money off the foreign scene, so having several top tier players spend 10 hours prepping for and playing in a foriegn tournament that they could just scrub out of and make very little money is worth much less than having them spend those 10 hours prepping for a national scene a few months away with much more of their money at stake such as pro-league or code S. It may seem trivial to plan so far ahead but time is money, as said before, and every dollar counts in business. Refusing to work with Kespa over this will not only hurt yourself, but also the scene as a whole. I keep seeing this a lot, but this has nothing to do with personal feelings, it's 100% business oriented. I have a product (my tournament) that I want to be successful. This product also offers players a very easy way to make money - all they have to do is play in an online tournament for 3 days (assuming they make it to at least the semi-finals. There's a considerable amount of "risk" that has to be taken in regards to the investment of the product. I (along with the community crowd-funding, to some extent) am shouldering almost all of that "risk" in the hope for a potential payout. If the tournament is a large success, then my risk was worth it. If it's a massive failure, then I lose everything I risk, which in this case means damage to my brand plus community backlash plus the inability for me to crowd fund a second tournament. KeSPA had the opportunity to "help" me with my brand for virtually nothing. Sending any KeSPA players, even b-teamers, could have bolstered viewership for the tournament. They are only playing online. It's an easy opportunity for them to make money. It's not risking or endangering their brand really much at all. It's not like this is a KeSPA sanctioned or KeSPA sponsored tournament. For them to completely forgo even sending b-teamers to my tournament means they had zero desire to involved in the investment part of the tournament, even though the "risk" for them was nearly non-existent and the "reward "(players earning money, plus positive exposure to KeSPA's player's team's brands etc...on Gameheart) could have been decent. If I'm happy with the viewership that I received for this tournament, why on earth would I reward KeSPA by inviting them now that the risk has been largely mitigated instead of just inviting similar people from last time? Liquid and EG were both kind to me in setting up invites for my tournament; I would much rather have Bunny/Taeja in my tournament since Liquid helped me set the first one up in regards to giving me access to their players vs letting KeSPA leech off of the success of a tournament that they didn't help whatsoever. This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
You obviously have a great understanding of the business aspect, and perhaps I was quick to judge the reasoning as feelings. I have often been very impressed by how knowledgable you are on Unfiltered and well-educated on matters at home and abroad. However I still think that at the end of the day Kespa is the biggest company in the business and while from your point of view they had no risk in being involved, they may feel differently. It sets precedents they might not be comfortable with, maybe the time investment for your tournament alone would not be much, but when they are expected to send players to every new online tournament that pops up, that can add up to quite a lot of time for even their B-team that they may want to push hard to get up to the big leagues soon. I am not sure what the business ethics are like in Korea but I would imagine that they are very different from here. Being ultra-conservative with initial investments can be considered good business practice by some. I mean, you don't see Verizon or Motorolla buying advertising space on a AAA baseball team's back fence, do you? But they dish out millions for their name to be put on the headsets worn by coaches on national TV. Those coaches and players didn't receive any initial investment from them, but that's the perk of being the biggest in the business, you get to pick and choose.
Ultimately it's just how I would approach it. I very much appreciate your intelligent reply and respect your point of view, regardless of how mine differs. Keep up the good work.
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On August 12 2014 01:56 Destiny wrote:
I keep seeing this a lot, but this has nothing to do with personal feelings, it's 100% business oriented.
I have a product (my tournament) that I want to be successful. This product also offers players a very easy way to make money - all they have to do is play in an online tournament for 3 days (assuming they make it to at least the semi-finals.
There's a considerable amount of "risk" that has to be taken in regards to the investment of the product. I (along with the community crowd-funding, to some extent) am shouldering almost all of that "risk" in the hope for a potential payout. If the tournament is a large success, then my risk was worth it. If it's a massive failure, then I lose everything I risk, which in this case means damage to my brand plus community backlash plus the inability for me to crowd fund a second tournament.
easy money, maybe they dont see it as enough of a prize to send players to?
KeSPA had the opportunity to "help" me with my brand for virtually nothing. Sending any KeSPA players, even b-teamers, could have bolstered viewership for the tournament. They are only playing online. It's an easy opportunity for them to make money. It's not risking or endangering their brand really much at all. It's not like this is a KeSPA sanctioned or KeSPA sponsored tournament.
For them to completely forgo even sending b-teamers to my tournament means they had zero desire to involved in the investment part of the tournament, even though the "risk" for them was nearly non-existent and the "reward "(players earning money, plus positive exposure to KeSPA's player's team's brands etc...on Gameheart) could have been decent.
i still dont see why they would want to "help" you. your whole idea that kespa gains some benefit is 1) the player could make some money by stay up all night (maybe not all night but a decent amount of it) for 3 days and 2) by reading the kespa's team name every so often, they'll provide positive exposure to the team.
you might think oh ya what a return on investment why kespa so dumb and not help guys? but maybe that isnt enough.
If I'm happy with the viewership that I received for this tournament, why on earth would I reward KeSPA by inviting them now that the risk has been largely mitigated instead of just inviting similar people from last time? Liquid and EG were both kind to me in setting up invites for my tournament; I would much rather have Bunny/Taeja in my tournament since Liquid helped me set the first one up in regards to giving me access to their players vs letting KeSPA leech off of the success of a tournament that they didn't help whatsoever.
because it might give you even MORE viewership? and more return on your time invested? and maybe viewers dont want to see the same 8 players every tournament?
This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
scared? more like they dont see enough reasons why they would want to invest. you prefaced this whole argument about 100% business, yet maybe 50% of it was. the other 50% is like oh you didnt jump on the bandwagon at the beginning so fuck you lol. guess what happens in REAL business? if they want to jump in later, they'll have to do so on a premium. that's how shit works.
if you could give us some general idea of how you pitched this to kespa, please do. if 1)easy money and 2)minimal exposure was it.
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For everyone whining about the $1,800. That's $300 a day before taxes. It's certainly more than minimum wage but let's be real here, it's not that much. Kind of leads me to believe the people at odds here are very young. Additionally you'd have to factor in the time/resources spent planning the event which I would assume amounts to way more than 6 days of work.
I liked this tournament even though I don't follow Starcraft anymore or really even care about it. Tuned in just because I knew the casting was going to be entertaining, and that it was.
But for the love of god, get a lockdown on that troll sneaking into the games. Should have done something about it after the first day.
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Destiny is nothing compared to what KeSPA is so he should stop acting like he's an equal to them. him/his tournament's value is nowhere close to KeSPA's value so locking them out of his next tournament is pretty dumb.
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On August 12 2014 01:04 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 01:01 plgElwood wrote:
I Think Destiny and all the casters (Naruto@ take.tv )did great. The tournament was indeed fun to watch.
I don't know how the money could be distributed to Destiny and his Co- Casters. Casters from other (language) Streams should not get paid, unless they promote a sponsor for the event.
Destiny "earning" about 2000$ Directly + Add Revenue or additional subs + Twitch should be fine.
Maybe do two Tipjars?
1. Destiny | 2. Prizepool ?
I am not decided on the KeSpA Thing. Everytime they should interact with another Organization they act arrogant. The Proleague format is plain boring and only picks up excitement during the Play Offs and Finals, at least for me.
There are some Koreans opening to the foreign community, and the elitist KeSpA.
And somehow they show yet another level of starcraft, if it is pure skill or just the fact that KeSpa is a rather tiny pool of players competing against one another over and over.
Destiny did not run ads, because of the crowdfunding  .
No ads was silly, what's wrong with 1 minute of commercials in between every series to help fund the tournament? If it adds another few hundred dollars to the funding then it puts less strain on the community.
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I like 2014 Destiny much more than 2011 Destiny. Great work, sorry for disrepecting that in the LR in a passive aggressive way. Do another one, I'll join in on the funding.
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Most entertaining tournament I've seen in months!
Day 1 Destiny didn't even know who his sponsors were.
Day 2 he was still figuring out how Round Robin format works.
Watching him figure this stuff out with great guys like INcontrol and Tod was refreshing. hilarious, and amazing.
If anything, always add new things to your tournament so that the tournament continues to be genuine and playful.
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Much respect to you for your growth as a person. 2014 Destiny > 2011 Destiny!
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About the KeSPA "problem",
i think it's easily understandable : they dont found any interest so they dont sent any player. It's sad of course, but you shouldnt take it personnaly.
It's just "ego stuffs", so i think you should chuck away those thought.
They dont wanna come? no problem, dont come, i'm gonna have fun with or without you.
They wanna enter the party? ok no problem, come and add your appreciation to the tournement.
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On August 12 2014 01:56 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 01:45 Redkeekee wrote:
Frankly, I am shocked that so much of the community is voting against Kespa players over a matter of personal feelings. Sure Kespa is acting like a corporate powerhouse and maybe their communication seems a little petty, which is likely due to language barrier, but guess what: In Korea esports IS A MUCH BIGGER DEAL. They ARE the biggest organization in esports for a reason, and cutting off your nose to spite your face is exactly what you will end up doing if you refuse to build a relationship with them.
Please, Destiny, realize that this is a business transaction to Kespa and nothing more. Build esports into a professional scene where internet personalities' feelings are not the driving force behind major decisions. I work in corporate America, so perhaps I have a different view compared to many others, but in my world this is just another day at the office. My boss budgets my time for what it is to him, dollars divided by efficiency. Time is money and Kespa has the right to manage their players time as they wish. Some extra prize money that the players may not even make depending on their placing in the tournament may be worth less to Kespa than their players practicing for their next event or whatever preparation they want them working on. Kespa does not make most of their money off the foreign scene, so having several top tier players spend 10 hours prepping for and playing in a foriegn tournament that they could just scrub out of and make very little money is worth much less than having them spend those 10 hours prepping for a national scene a few months away with much more of their money at stake such as pro-league or code S. It may seem trivial to plan so far ahead but time is money, as said before, and every dollar counts in business. Refusing to work with Kespa over this will not only hurt yourself, but also the scene as a whole. I keep seeing this a lot, but this has nothing to do with personal feelings, it's 100% business oriented. I have a product (my tournament) that I want to be successful. This product also offers players a very easy way to make money - all they have to do is play in an online tournament for 3 days (assuming they make it to at least the semi-finals. There's a considerable amount of "risk" that has to be taken in regards to the investment of the product. I (along with the community crowd-funding, to some extent) am shouldering almost all of that "risk" in the hope for a potential payout. If the tournament is a large success, then my risk was worth it. If it's a massive failure, then I lose everything I risk, which in this case means damage to my brand plus community backlash plus the inability for me to crowd fund a second tournament. KeSPA had the opportunity to "help" me with my brand for virtually nothing. Sending any KeSPA players, even b-teamers, could have bolstered viewership for the tournament. They are only playing online. It's an easy opportunity for them to make money. It's not risking or endangering their brand really much at all. It's not like this is a KeSPA sanctioned or KeSPA sponsored tournament. For them to completely forgo even sending b-teamers to my tournament means they had zero desire to involved in the investment part of the tournament, even though the "risk" for them was nearly non-existent and the "reward "(players earning money, plus positive exposure to KeSPA's player's team's brands etc...on Gameheart) could have been decent. If I'm happy with the viewership that I received for this tournament, why on earth would I reward KeSPA by inviting them now that the risk has been largely mitigated instead of just inviting similar people from last time? Liquid and EG were both kind to me in setting up invites for my tournament; I would much rather have Bunny/Taeja in my tournament since Liquid helped me set the first one up in regards to giving me access to their players vs letting KeSPA leech off of the success of a tournament that they didn't help whatsoever. This has nothing to do with "lolbutthurt" or "omg feelings" and it's 100% business related. If you are too scared to take part in the initial round of investment for a company then why on earth would you go back to the company later hoping to reap the same rewards that initial investors got?
If it's 100% business related for you, what do you gain by banning kespa from your next tournament? They didn't feel like it was worth the time this time, that's fine, you can't force people to enter a tournament. If they want to join the next one, that's still great for you since it would boost the viewership, but you have nothing to gain from not letting them in on the next one just because they didn't play in the first one.
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Destiny, your tournament was very entertaining but there was important piece missing: Avilo.
Why didnt you invite Avilo to the tournament? He is one of the best meching terrans out there. He would have significantly boosted your viewership.
Heck, why not hire Avilo for 100 dollars as a caster. Have you not seen his awesome Kung Fu moves?
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On August 12 2014 00:30 Musicus wrote:One more thing I'd like to mention is the prize money for Destiny II. Don't aim too high! People saw you were going to do a tournament for the first time and chipped in, but people don't like to do that too often  . Some that didn't donate this time will next time, some that did will not. I am sure you can go for 5k or 6k, but don't go to 10k, especially without sponsors imo. Then you would need at least 12k to pay the casters, staff and get some money yourself. We don't need that much money for an online competition, especially if you want to have several per year.
I was thinking about this aswell, I don't think it necessarily follows with crowdfunding that because you delivered a good product on your first tournament it incentivises people to contribute more to the next one.
People who are contributing to a crowdfunded project want entertainment and quality from that investment.
Is a 10k tournament twice as exciting as a 5k tournament ? No I wouldn't say so, despite a bigger prize pool and better production it's going to be what, probably about 30% better ? (I just pulled that number out my ass.) My point is there's obviously diminishing returns on each extra dollar that gets added.
Are people prepared to invest 100% more for an increase of 30% production value ? Honnestly I have no idea, it could be the worth the leap from 5k to 10k but not from 10k to 20k say, where do you draw the line ...
I actually think Destiny could get the 10k for Destiny-II but then what happens down the line as this becomes a regular tournament ... I'm not sure you'd keep getting 10k from the community, it's a lot of money (could be completely wrong though). Ugh then you have to consider what happens if you'd have to revert back to a small prize pool & production further down the line because it was unsustainable (e.g I - 5k, II - 10k, III - 10k, IV - 7k), i.e do you lose a dissproportionate amount of interest/viewers (talking proportional to the 3K drop) in IV because it's less. I'm sure some pyschologist could explain better but I'm pretty sure there's something in the human mind that when you have to downscale it makes you feel ... deflated (so you could get worse viewership for a 7k fourth tourny than for your 5k Destiny I), you can always go up but going down is damn risky ...
Of course that shits ways in the future but you gotta consider these things right.
Man, I'd play it a bit more conservative like Muscius says for Destiny II, 5k/6k ish, perhaps 7?, and see what happens. Yeah actually up the funding a *small* bit and see if you notice what returns you are getting on that before radically increasing it.
Also stick with the sponsors ! I don't see why you'd want to get rid of them.
Disclaimer, could all be shit advice though
On August 12 2014 00:26 LeviathanDK wrote:
get some casters, the final day with Minigun made me skip out on every single game as I simply need a caster "ToD would be fine"
It was a shame that your tournament didn't feel as a proper tournament due to casters and imo the language during the casting was too laidback and some of the language was in my mind too rude towards some players, or they were being made fun of due to their skills or choices. I hope this will change for a future Destiny II tournament, because I like that there are more tournaments like this out there.
Tournament organization always has to be professional, casting though .... just has to be entertaining. Whether it was entertaining or not is a different question.
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About Kespa:
I think it is still in your best interest to pursue these players from a 100% business standpoint, as you say. Yes, you took on all the risk; now that you know where viewership is imagine what viewership would be if you managed to bring on Kespa. I would not be upset as a businessperson (i.e Destiny) if a party (i.e. Kespa) did not jump on board the first go at a business venture.
The risk is in the rear view mirror and bringing on Kespa for the second tournament will do you more good than excluding them.
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In my opinion business is business and you have a gain from having Kespa players in your tournament, so don't take it personally.
I really enjoyed the tournament as there was a lot of hype and excitement throughout, something that we're lacking lately.
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EPT
