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On July 23 2014 06:24 KatatoniK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 05:57 Genome852 wrote:On July 23 2014 05:12 KatatoniK wrote:On July 23 2014 05:01 Squat wrote:On July 23 2014 04:22 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2014 04:20 StasisField wrote:
I still don't see the point in the Timewarp change. It is so vital in PvP engagements that this feels too drastic. PvP is a mirror... Both sides have the MSC. Protoss players have been using PvP as an excuse not to nerf stupid stuff for some time now. PO comes to mind. One might argue that if PvP is only fine because of borderline broken abilities on a hero unit that also fuck up the other MUs, there are some deeper issues, but w/e. So you want Protoss to die to stim pushes every game? After watching Ryung vs Squirtle I definitely don't think PO "fucks up" other match-ups. Protoss isn't the flawed race here, Terran is. I can't be the only one who finds it ridiculous that Terran get away with making the bulk of their army in cheap tier 1 units that then get a DPS + Speed boost at the press of one button + healing from other units. Don't get me wrong, there are aspects of Protoss that are incredibly stupid (I'm looking at you Time Warp) but a race that is balanced entirely around a 50 mineral early game unit that does pretty much everything + cheap mine units that can decimate most things very cost effectively. Surely I can't be the only person in the world who thinks that's incredibly silly. If you think "tier 1" units should not be usable or useful in late game situations, you should play another RTS game. Terran has a flawed late game due to units, but from a fundamental standpoint it is not flawed. It is the most "vanilla RTS style" race in SC2. People complaining about stim... I feel like it's 2010 again. I never said they shouldn't be usable, I said they shouldn't be the CORE unit of an entire army for the entire duration of a game for 50 mineral outlay. Protoss can't function on mostly Zealots once it gets to late game and Zerg can't focus on mostly Zerglings except for harassment. That's their function at late game, they harass economy as well as help support the beefier tech army. An early game unit should not be able to effectively maul through pretty much everything else thrown at it with the support of other units, they should go from useful early game defence/offence to a support role for the beefier tech units. What's the point in having more expensive higher tech units if they're just going to be overshadowed by the very first unit you can produce in the game that's super cheap?
What are you on? Zerglings are critical in late game ZvT. I feel like you're playing/watching the wrong RTS. The most exciting plays/games of SC2 revolve T1/T1.5 units like the zergling, marine and stalker microing. Those beat laser fights, broodling wars or battlecruiser pew pew any day
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Going on rants about Terran? Never go on rants about Terran
I could write you 10 essays on why the other classes are absolutely ridiculous in the face of Terran though, and in fact TheDwrf has already basically done that with enough evidence that you can't provide for your own argument.
There really is no question to it..and it's also clear that Terran's late-game issues are inherent simply in the way the race's mechanics work, such as unit rallying from one far-away location and bad late-game unit synergy.
You have 2 choices: 1, either revamp the race which can only be done in LotV, or 2, try to make their mid-game stronger so that they come out stronger in the late-game, which is exactly what Blizzard intends to do with this patch, and which David Kim has stated was their goal. In that case, he admits you simply can't tweak a thing or two to directly make Terran late game stronger, due to the way the race simply is atm.
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i dont understand how no one has mentioned how the widow mine change will affect zvt its already insanely strong in that match up
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On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard.
Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky.
Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens.
This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me.
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On July 23 2014 06:35 Deathstar42 wrote:
i dont understand how no one has mentioned how the widow mine change will affect zvt its already insanely strong in that match up
They actually got nerfed so hard that I stopped using them in the matchup in favour of hellbat/banshee. Their weak AoE is the core cause of Terran difficulty in TvZ at the moment. Terran's only other AoE option is the tank, which is worthless in the match-up thanks to the new super mutas (unless you're already way ahead, then it doesn't really matter).
On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me.
Seriously? Avilo? You have to be kidding me. Tell me when he even qualifies for a premier tournament (even just NA-level premier would suffice), then maybe your examples will have a shred of relevance to what I was saying.
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The difference between T and ZP is that for Terrans, Marines are doing most of the damage. All the other units there are to support them.
Z and P also spam a lot of Tier 1, but they're almost cannon fodder for the Muta, Colossus, Archons, etc. Or they're used to harass.
Example:
A Marine gets healed by a Medivac faster than a Stalker can actually do damage to it.
The end result is that when Terran trades, it's only trading minerals (okay, MOSTLY only minerals). Sure you need STIM and upgrades and Medivacs. But upgrades are one-time costs. And if you can press B your medivacs should survive.
MY POINT IS:
If you then give Terran a really good gas sink... it could be kind of a problem.
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Example:
A Marine gets healed by a Medivac faster than a Stalker can actually do damage to it.
Not a good example cuz that is not the marines fault, its the stalkers fault with his blink+warpgate
Edit: And ofcourse, the whole race as one. So my example is probably pretty bad to
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On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me.
As much as I love Avilo for trying mech, he is definitely not a top tier Korean like you say, and I think all balance patches are directed towards problems at the top tier (mostly Koreans). Funnily, Bbyong has now done mech/raven three times in the ProLeague semifinals, but arguably on a specific map where he only won the first time surprising the opponent AND had a hidden expansion.
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On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me.
Avilo doesn't play like normal people though, he turtles on way less bases than he should actually have at any given time and never actually attacks. And he doesn't play bio, either. With bio if you let up the pressure you will get crushed, even with the new mines, and ravens won't make up for it as they don't do shit vs mutas. And that isn't even mentioning their complete lack of viability in a bio army.
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On July 23 2014 06:09 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 06:05 Squat wrote:On July 23 2014 05:59 submarine wrote:On July 23 2014 05:54 andrewlt wrote:On July 23 2014 05:36 geokilla wrote:On July 23 2014 05:12 KatatoniK wrote:On July 23 2014 05:01 Squat wrote:On July 23 2014 04:22 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2014 04:20 StasisField wrote:
I still don't see the point in the Timewarp change. It is so vital in PvP engagements that this feels too drastic. PvP is a mirror... Both sides have the MSC. Protoss players have been using PvP as an excuse not to nerf stupid stuff for some time now. PO comes to mind. One might argue that if PvP is only fine because of borderline broken abilities on a hero unit that also fuck up the other MUs, there are some deeper issues, but w/e. So you want Protoss to die to stim pushes every game? After watching Ryung vs Squirtle I definitely don't think PO "fucks up" other match-ups. Protoss isn't the flawed race here, Terran is. I can't be the only one who finds it ridiculous that Terran get away with making the bulk of their army in cheap tier 1 units that then get a DPS + Speed boost at the press of one button + healing from other units. Don't get me wrong, there are aspects of Protoss that are incredibly stupid (I'm looking at you Time Warp) but a race that is balanced entirely around a 50 mineral early game unit that does pretty much everything + cheap mine units that can decimate most things very cost effectively. Surely I can't be the only person in the world who thinks that's incredibly silly. Terran is flawed? Now I've seen it all. They're all flawed. But yes, designing an entire race's roster to be nothing but support units for their first, cheap, low tech military unit is pretty silly. Why? Because it means the later tier units have to be weaker, which creates a situation where there is no incentive to tech up. What you don't understand is that terrans t2 and t3 units are marines. They scales with upgrades and support. making them stronger. SC2 is an asymetrical game and a don't see why terrans can't have an army based on t1 units. The game isn't imbalanced because of marines. It never was.
Woa.... Marines never led to imbalances? 2010 + GomTvT? Blizzard just decided to not nerf marines back then, but to buff infestors, nerf tanks, buff queens, buff immortals (to hold marinebased 1-1-1s), nerf bunkers and raxes, stim...
It's funny that you think the marine was never a problem when Terran had a ridiculously strong periode of domination with marine-based builds. Back then, they could have balanced differently. There was one solution to nerf all of the builds that caused imbalances, yet, they rather gimped everything else.
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Guys the mine being more effective in the midgame (more cost effective) means Terrans late is more evened out because the opponents economy will be more damaged. This keeps in line with their asymmetric balance, it does make sense O_O @ the people saying it doesn't.
Also, get ready to micro everyone thats not Terran!
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On July 23 2014 06:49 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 06:09 Faust852 wrote:On July 23 2014 06:05 Squat wrote:On July 23 2014 05:59 submarine wrote:On July 23 2014 05:54 andrewlt wrote:On July 23 2014 05:36 geokilla wrote:On July 23 2014 05:12 KatatoniK wrote:On July 23 2014 05:01 Squat wrote:On July 23 2014 04:22 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2014 04:20 StasisField wrote:
I still don't see the point in the Timewarp change. It is so vital in PvP engagements that this feels too drastic. PvP is a mirror... Both sides have the MSC. Protoss players have been using PvP as an excuse not to nerf stupid stuff for some time now. PO comes to mind. One might argue that if PvP is only fine because of borderline broken abilities on a hero unit that also fuck up the other MUs, there are some deeper issues, but w/e. So you want Protoss to die to stim pushes every game? After watching Ryung vs Squirtle I definitely don't think PO "fucks up" other match-ups. Protoss isn't the flawed race here, Terran is. I can't be the only one who finds it ridiculous that Terran get away with making the bulk of their army in cheap tier 1 units that then get a DPS + Speed boost at the press of one button + healing from other units. Don't get me wrong, there are aspects of Protoss that are incredibly stupid (I'm looking at you Time Warp) but a race that is balanced entirely around a 50 mineral early game unit that does pretty much everything + cheap mine units that can decimate most things very cost effectively. Surely I can't be the only person in the world who thinks that's incredibly silly. Terran is flawed? Now I've seen it all. They're all flawed. But yes, designing an entire race's roster to be nothing but support units for their first, cheap, low tech military unit is pretty silly. Why? Because it means the later tier units have to be weaker, which creates a situation where there is no incentive to tech up. What you don't understand is that terrans t2 and t3 units are marines. They scales with upgrades and support. making them stronger. SC2 is an asymetrical game and a don't see why terrans can't have an army based on t1 units. The game isn't imbalanced because of marines. It never was. Woa.... Marines never led to imbalances? 2010 + GomTvT? Blizzard just decided to not nerf marines back then, but to buff infestors, nerf tanks, buff queens, buff immortals (to hold marinebased 1-1-1s), nerf bunkers and raxes, stim... It's funny that you think the marine was never a problem when Terran had a ridiculously strong periode of domination with marine-based builds. Back then, they could have balanced differently. There was one solution to nerf all of the builds that caused imbalances, yet, they rather gimped everything else.
It's stupid to say that an aggression is marine based. It's like saying every protoss allin are zealot based but blink allin, that leave quite a lot of option. Hell, they even nerfed the pylone twice because of proxy gates zealots. WM got a buff against shield to deal with mass zealots too. I can tell you a shit tons of things that were nerfed that had absolutly no link with the marines.
The blueflamme for exemple ? Remember Slayers_helliondrops ? or Marauders Hellions allin ? Much marines in these comp.
And 2010 ? Wasn't that a bit beecause of the reaper too ? Reaper are so much marine like. That must be it.
Yeah, Ghost too, remember how they mixed up so well when marines sniped BL and Ultra like it was nothing.
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On July 23 2014 06:49 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 06:09 Faust852 wrote:On July 23 2014 06:05 Squat wrote:On July 23 2014 05:59 submarine wrote:On July 23 2014 05:54 andrewlt wrote:On July 23 2014 05:36 geokilla wrote:On July 23 2014 05:12 KatatoniK wrote:On July 23 2014 05:01 Squat wrote:On July 23 2014 04:22 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2014 04:20 StasisField wrote:
I still don't see the point in the Timewarp change. It is so vital in PvP engagements that this feels too drastic. PvP is a mirror... Both sides have the MSC. Protoss players have been using PvP as an excuse not to nerf stupid stuff for some time now. PO comes to mind. One might argue that if PvP is only fine because of borderline broken abilities on a hero unit that also fuck up the other MUs, there are some deeper issues, but w/e. So you want Protoss to die to stim pushes every game? After watching Ryung vs Squirtle I definitely don't think PO "fucks up" other match-ups. Protoss isn't the flawed race here, Terran is. I can't be the only one who finds it ridiculous that Terran get away with making the bulk of their army in cheap tier 1 units that then get a DPS + Speed boost at the press of one button + healing from other units. Don't get me wrong, there are aspects of Protoss that are incredibly stupid (I'm looking at you Time Warp) but a race that is balanced entirely around a 50 mineral early game unit that does pretty much everything + cheap mine units that can decimate most things very cost effectively. Surely I can't be the only person in the world who thinks that's incredibly silly. Terran is flawed? Now I've seen it all. They're all flawed. But yes, designing an entire race's roster to be nothing but support units for their first, cheap, low tech military unit is pretty silly. Why? Because it means the later tier units have to be weaker, which creates a situation where there is no incentive to tech up. What you don't understand is that terrans t2 and t3 units are marines. They scales with upgrades and support. making them stronger. SC2 is an asymetrical game and a don't see why terrans can't have an army based on t1 units. The game isn't imbalanced because of marines. It never was. Woa.... Marines never led to imbalances? 2010 + GomTvT? Blizzard just decided to not nerf marines back then, but to buff infestors, nerf tanks, buff queens, buff immortals (to hold marinebased 1-1-1s), nerf bunkers and raxes, stim... It's funny that you think the marine was never a problem when Terran had a ridiculously strong periode of domination with marine-based builds. Back then, they could have balanced differently. There was one solution to nerf all of the builds that caused imbalances, yet, they rather gimped everything else.
Uh...
Infestor buff was for bio in general, tank nerfs were because of the map sizes back in 2010 (note how tanks have been buffed in HotS with the advent of larger maps), queen buffs were to deal with early hellions, immortal buffs were to deal with the tanks in 1-1-1, not marines... stim was because of map sizes (again; does no one remember close position Metalopolis?). Bunkers and rax nerfs were specifically to target bunker rushes.
Basically, you got bunker rushes right. That's about it regarding marines. Well done.
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On July 23 2014 03:14 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 03:13 Lunareste wrote:
buff tanks ;_;
just fucking buff tanks, blizzard. TvT
Tanks were nerfed because zerg couldn't handle tank pressure on small maps back in 2010-2011. TvT was never really an issue. The worst that could happen in TvT is that it turns into tank/viking most of the time, but as long as drops remain as potent as they are (mainly because the current maps are enormous), a purely tank army will get pulled apart by a more mobile bio/medivac force. Tanks are strong but they can neither be everywhere at once or remade easily once they've gone down.
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On July 23 2014 06:44 gneGne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me. As much as I love Avilo for trying mech, he is definitely not a top tier Korean like you say, and I think all balance patches are directed towards problems at the top tier (mostly Koreans). Funnily, Bbyong has now done mech/raven three times in the ProLeague semifinals, but arguably on a specific map where he only won the first time surprising the opponent AND had a hidden expansion.
My argument was that Avilo is able to consistently pull off Raven transitions against all kinds of players, which was meant to include top tier Koreans.
To me personally, this is proof that Raven is severely underused.
On July 23 2014 06:47 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me. Avilo doesn't play like normal people though, he turtles on way less bases than he should actually have at any given time and never actually attacks. And he doesn't play bio, either. With bio if you let up the pressure you will get crushed, even with the new mines, and ravens won't make up for it as they don't do shit vs mutas. And that isn't even mentioning their complete lack of viability in a bio army.
Avilo does play "like normal people" who play mech and he can play Bio Raven in TvZ pretty well.
What I'm trying to say here, is.... you seem to be making your arguments up out of thin air. You assume that Raven probably sucks with Bio, because no one does it (and theorycrafting maybe). Am I right?
ps: i'm playing bio raven in every TvZ and it makes the zergs whine in a large number of cases
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Not the kind of Buffs I wanted, but I'll take it anyway.
That friendly fire though 
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Infestor buff was for bio in general
Hmm I actually think it was mostly to adress the Voidray/Collosus composition. Over time in WOL, Muta/bling eventually became figured out, but when they buffed the Infestor, I don't think anyone realized that terran bio/tank was "imbalanced". vs zerg.
stim was because of map sizes (again; does no one remember close position Metalopolis?).
Many people do not remember this now, but Stim was actually one of those "noone asked for that"-nerf. Not saying it wasn't a good nerf back then, but it wasn't like there weren't any clear timings that were really hard to deal with (such as 1/1/1 was at one pont in time).
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On July 23 2014 06:55 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 06:49 Big J wrote:On July 23 2014 06:09 Faust852 wrote:On July 23 2014 06:05 Squat wrote:On July 23 2014 05:59 submarine wrote:On July 23 2014 05:54 andrewlt wrote:On July 23 2014 05:36 geokilla wrote:On July 23 2014 05:12 KatatoniK wrote:On July 23 2014 05:01 Squat wrote:On July 23 2014 04:22 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
PvP is a mirror... Both sides have the MSC. Protoss players have been using PvP as an excuse not to nerf stupid stuff for some time now. PO comes to mind. One might argue that if PvP is only fine because of borderline broken abilities on a hero unit that also fuck up the other MUs, there are some deeper issues, but w/e. So you want Protoss to die to stim pushes every game? After watching Ryung vs Squirtle I definitely don't think PO "fucks up" other match-ups. Protoss isn't the flawed race here, Terran is. I can't be the only one who finds it ridiculous that Terran get away with making the bulk of their army in cheap tier 1 units that then get a DPS + Speed boost at the press of one button + healing from other units. Don't get me wrong, there are aspects of Protoss that are incredibly stupid (I'm looking at you Time Warp) but a race that is balanced entirely around a 50 mineral early game unit that does pretty much everything + cheap mine units that can decimate most things very cost effectively. Surely I can't be the only person in the world who thinks that's incredibly silly. Terran is flawed? Now I've seen it all. They're all flawed. But yes, designing an entire race's roster to be nothing but support units for their first, cheap, low tech military unit is pretty silly. Why? Because it means the later tier units have to be weaker, which creates a situation where there is no incentive to tech up. What you don't understand is that terrans t2 and t3 units are marines. They scales with upgrades and support. making them stronger. SC2 is an asymetrical game and a don't see why terrans can't have an army based on t1 units. The game isn't imbalanced because of marines. It never was. Woa.... Marines never led to imbalances? 2010 + GomTvT? Blizzard just decided to not nerf marines back then, but to buff infestors, nerf tanks, buff queens, buff immortals (to hold marinebased 1-1-1s), nerf bunkers and raxes, stim... It's funny that you think the marine was never a problem when Terran had a ridiculously strong periode of domination with marine-based builds. Back then, they could have balanced differently. There was one solution to nerf all of the builds that caused imbalances, yet, they rather gimped everything else. It's stupid to say that an aggression is marine based. It's like saying every protoss allin are zealot based but blink allin, that leave quite a lot of option. I can tell you a shit tons of things that were nerfed that had absolutly no link with the marines. The blueflamme for exemple ? Remember Slayers_helliondrops ? or Marauders Hellions allin ? Much marines in these comp.
Then I guess blizzard was wrong nerfing the infestor just because it was the core unit when zerg was too strong. Because "it is stupid to say those builds were infestorbased" for whatever reason.
Yei, you found other builds that were also used and nerfed. Which invalidates my point that they could have left rax/bunker/stim and a thousand other things that were nerfed because of marinebased plays in which way? (Not to mention that there also were marine/hellion pushes etc)
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i'm missing when this update will be live
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On July 23 2014 07:12 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 06:55 Faust852 wrote:On July 23 2014 06:49 Big J wrote:On July 23 2014 06:09 Faust852 wrote:On July 23 2014 06:05 Squat wrote:On July 23 2014 05:59 submarine wrote:On July 23 2014 05:54 andrewlt wrote:On July 23 2014 05:36 geokilla wrote:On July 23 2014 05:12 KatatoniK wrote:On July 23 2014 05:01 Squat wrote:
[quote]
Protoss players have been using PvP as an excuse not to nerf stupid stuff for some time now. PO comes to mind. One might argue that if PvP is only fine because of borderline broken abilities on a hero unit that also !@#$%^&* up the other MUs, there are some deeper issues, but w/e. So you want Protoss to die to stim pushes every game? After watching Ryung vs Squirtle I definitely don't think PO "fucks up" other match-ups. Protoss isn't the flawed race here, Terran is. I can't be the only one who finds it ridiculous that Terran get away with making the bulk of their army in cheap tier 1 units that then get a DPS + Speed boost at the press of one button + healing from other units. Don't get me wrong, there are aspects of Protoss that are incredibly stupid (I'm looking at you Time Warp) but a race that is balanced entirely around a 50 mineral early game unit that does pretty much everything + cheap mine units that can decimate most things very cost effectively. Surely I can't be the only person in the world who thinks that's incredibly silly. Terran is flawed? Now I've seen it all. They're all flawed. But yes, designing an entire race's roster to be nothing but support units for their first, cheap, low tech military unit is pretty silly. Why? Because it means the later tier units have to be weaker, which creates a situation where there is no incentive to tech up. What you don't understand is that terrans t2 and t3 units are marines. They scales with upgrades and support. making them stronger. SC2 is an asymetrical game and a don't see why terrans can't have an army based on t1 units. The game isn't imbalanced because of marines. It never was. Woa.... Marines never led to imbalances? 2010 + GomTvT? Blizzard just decided to not nerf marines back then, but to buff infestors, nerf tanks, buff queens, buff immortals (to hold marinebased 1-1-1s), nerf bunkers and raxes, stim... It's funny that you think the marine was never a problem when Terran had a ridiculously strong periode of domination with marine-based builds. Back then, they could have balanced differently. There was one solution to nerf all of the builds that caused imbalances, yet, they rather gimped everything else. It's stupid to say that an aggression is marine based. It's like saying every protoss allin are zealot based but blink allin, that leave quite a lot of option. I can tell you a !@#$%^&* tons of things that were nerfed that had absolutly no link with the marines. The blueflamme for exemple ? Remember Slayers_helliondrops ? or Marauders Hellions allin ? Much marines in these comp. Then I guess blizzard was wrong nerfing the infestor just because it was the core unit when zerg was too strong. Because "it is stupid to say those builds were infestorbased" for whatever reason. Yei, you found other builds that were also used and nerfed. Which invalidates my point that they could have left rax/bunker/stim and a thousand other things that were nerfed because of marinebased plays in which way? (Not to mention that there also were marine/hellion pushes etc)
I don't think you can compare Marines to Infestors here. Marine is a core-unit and it didn't really "dominate" other terran units. For instance, it's not like anyone said thad they would never go Hellions along with tanks as Marines were better along with tanks. So a strong Marine wasn't something which made other terran compositons nonviable.
Instead, a buff to the Infestor in early 2011 accomplished several things;
- More diversity in all mathups (a Marine nerf wouldn't have succeded in doing that)
- Better balance in both ZvP and TvZ (a Marine nerf would only have helped in nerfing TvZ).
And besides that, I am not really sure there are other obvious chances Blizzard made due to the impact of the Marine in the mid/late game. Bunker changes, 1/1/1 and Stim research time were only related to the early game and if Marines were fine in the mid/late game - but some Marines timings too strong in the early game - then it made sense for Blizzard to adress those issues on a seperate basis rather than making a general Marine nerf.
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