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best part about playing in the gold league is I feel like balance patches don't really affect me. whether my race is under/overpowered, i'm too bad to really notice and there's always room for improvement on my part.
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On July 23 2014 07:24 Big J wrote:
The point is, that it doesnt matter if you nerf the marine or buff the immortal for tanks to deal with 1-1-1. In either case, you nerf 1-1-1. In either case, you nerf a marinebased build (that usually included 2-3raxes).
Nerfing the marine would nerf Terran across the board, which is ridiculous, as the only issue was 1-1-1. The siege tank was the backbone that made 1-1-1 so strong, not the marine. This is why 1-1-1 broke with the immortal buff; Protoss could more reliably shut down the tanks, rendering the all-in worthless.
On July 23 2014 07:24 Big J wrote:
Those mapsize argumentations are extreme hindsight... we played the game on those maps and not on others.
Yes, we played the games on those maps, and that's why we saw the respective nerfs. It's also why we saw siege tank buffs with the new, larger maps. What part of that are you not understanding? Back when you had a 20 second rush distance to your opponent, stim timings were too strong, so stim research time was nerfed accordingly to delay the timing. The game is balanced according to the current state of the game + ladder pool; one of the big community suggestions to buff Terran this time around was to revert the stim research time nerf, specifically because the rush distances have changed since then. Blizzard disregarded that one in favour of reverting the WM nerf, but still.
On July 23 2014 07:24 Big J wrote:
Quenn buff was to somewhat cite DK to make it easier for zerg to break the hellion contains to get into a better posiion against follow up aggression. Guess what that follow up aggression usually was? Marine+something. You know how else they could have made those pushes weaker? By making them weaker...
You've had two people correct you on this already now, but you still keep saying this nonsense. The queen was buffed to deal with early hellion pressure, which was too strong. It was too strong because Terran could do literally anything behind it and the Zerg was stuck on 2 bases. This had absolutely nothing to do with marines; Terran being up 3 bases to 2 vs a Zerg is a practically unwinnable situation for Z, regardless of what the follow-up timing is.
On July 23 2014 07:24 Big J wrote:
And so on and so on. Many of the things Terrans did in 2010-11 only were broken because they made it too hard to hold follow up bio play, against which you need(ed) very severe precautions.
They made it too hard to hold ANY follow-up play, not just bio, as the non-Terran was always on the backfoot. Terran is facing the same issue now, hence the buffs.
If you actually think marines are too good, why don't you play Terran and mass marines? See how far you get.
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I hate widow mine being so volatile, and it is just insane how short every engagement is and how fast it can swing the momentum if there is a good widow mine shot
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Bwahahaha feed me the tears!!! IMO it's about time!
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On July 23 2014 09:08 Popkiller wrote:
best part about playing in the gold league is I feel like balance patches don't really affect me. whether my race is under/overpowered, i'm too bad to really notice and there's always room for improvement on my part.
Well what you say is actually true for everyone except maybe top KR players, but most people are mistaken and think they're good enough to be affected by balance patches (me the first !).
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On July 23 2014 07:24 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 07:05 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:44 gneGne wrote:On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me. As much as I love Avilo for trying mech, he is definitely not a top tier Korean like you say, and I think all balance patches are directed towards problems at the top tier (mostly Koreans). Funnily, Bbyong has now done mech/raven three times in the ProLeague semifinals, but arguably on a specific map where he only won the first time surprising the opponent AND had a hidden expansion. My argument was that Avilo is able to consistently pull off Raven transitions against all kinds of players, which was meant to include top tier Koreans. To me personally, this is proof that Raven is severely underused. I watch Avilo's stream. He doesn't generally play against the Koreans (he's honestly not at that level of skill). On the once-in-a-blue-moon occasion he does face one, he loses. Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 07:05 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:47 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me. Avilo doesn't play like normal people though, he turtles on way less bases than he should actually have at any given time and never actually attacks. And he doesn't play bio, either. With bio if you let up the pressure you will get crushed, even with the new mines, and ravens won't make up for it as they don't do shit vs mutas. And that isn't even mentioning their complete lack of viability in a bio army. Avilo does play "like normal people" who play mech and he can play Bio Raven in TvZ pretty well. What I'm trying to say here, is.... you seem to be making your arguments up out of thin air. You assume that Raven probably sucks with Bio, because no one does it (and theorycrafting maybe). Am I right? ps: i'm playing bio raven in every TvZ and it makes the zergs whine in a large number of cases I can't wait to see your debut in WCS Challenger.
Of course Avilo loses against most top tier players, but it still looks like he'd have a really great chance at pulling off a Raven transition. And sometimes he does. And in superlategame he actually stands a great fight against Korean top tier Terrans...
So judging from this, I believe that a great player could regularly pull off a Raven transition in top tier matches. Your counter-argument is "but Avilo loses to top tier Koreans".
Let me try to sum up your opinion. Koreans don't play Raven, because there's no chances to transition? Is that what you're saying?
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On July 23 2014 09:28 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 07:24 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 07:05 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:44 gneGne wrote:On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me. As much as I love Avilo for trying mech, he is definitely not a top tier Korean like you say, and I think all balance patches are directed towards problems at the top tier (mostly Koreans). Funnily, Bbyong has now done mech/raven three times in the ProLeague semifinals, but arguably on a specific map where he only won the first time surprising the opponent AND had a hidden expansion. My argument was that Avilo is able to consistently pull off Raven transitions against all kinds of players, which was meant to include top tier Koreans. To me personally, this is proof that Raven is severely underused. I watch Avilo's stream. He doesn't generally play against the Koreans (he's honestly not at that level of skill). On the once-in-a-blue-moon occasion he does face one, he loses. On July 23 2014 07:05 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:47 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me. Avilo doesn't play like normal people though, he turtles on way less bases than he should actually have at any given time and never actually attacks. And he doesn't play bio, either. With bio if you let up the pressure you will get crushed, even with the new mines, and ravens won't make up for it as they don't do shit vs mutas. And that isn't even mentioning their complete lack of viability in a bio army. Avilo does play "like normal people" who play mech and he can play Bio Raven in TvZ pretty well. What I'm trying to say here, is.... you seem to be making your arguments up out of thin air. You assume that Raven probably sucks with Bio, because no one does it (and theorycrafting maybe). Am I right? ps: i'm playing bio raven in every TvZ and it makes the zergs whine in a large number of cases I can't wait to see your debut in WCS Challenger. Of course Avilo loses against most top tier players, but it still looks like he'd have a really great chance at pulling off a Raven transition. And sometimes he does. And in superlategame he actually stands a great fight against Korean top tier Terrans... So judging from this, I believe that a great player could regularly pull off a Raven transition in top tier matches. Your counter-argument is "but Avilo loses to top tier Koreans". Let me try to sum up your opinion. Koreans don't play Raven, because there's no chances to transition? Is that what you're saying?
If you play 100% of your game with raven ultra late game, don't you think even a midgm NA would compete with the top of korean terran ? I do. Top korean don't have as much experience in the ultra late game as avilo do because he do that every fucking games and koreans terran must have played that what, 10 times a month at best?
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"we feel that both the strength of Protoss and weakness of Terran in the highest level tournaments has continued a bit too long and we’d like to act with a bigger set of changes this time around."
Let the protoss tears flow, while I bath in glory.
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On July 23 2014 09:19 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 09:08 Popkiller wrote:
best part about playing in the gold league is I feel like balance patches don't really affect me. whether my race is under/overpowered, i'm too bad to really notice and there's always room for improvement on my part. Well what you say is actually true for everyone except maybe top KR players, but most people are mistaken and think they're good enough to be affected by balance patches (me the first !).
This drivel needs to die. It has no backing in reality and is just a senseless way for people to kill balance discussion without actually having to refute any arguments. Its almost as bad as "Sample size too small!" (Unfailingly used by people who don't even know what the statistical definition of a sample is...)
Lower skill players are more affected by balance than professional players by any quantitative measure. This is true for two major reasons:
First, the lower skill player-base is many, many, orders of magnitude larger, therefore even the smallest alterations in balance have statistically significant outcomes.
Secondly, as there are many more lower skill players, the average skill difference is much smaller. This is further compounded by the matchmaking system which attempts to generate even matchups. Even matchups are far more likely to have their outcome altered by balance than a RO8 taeja vs foreigner stomp.
If you accept the above two points, is impossible to make a coherent argument that balance patches do not affect lower level players. If you want empirical proof, ladder distribution statistics are far more volatile than high-level win rates.
In fact, the idea that a patch exclusively affects high level play was contradicted in the very post that this thread is discussing! The Thor patch is expected to have a marginal affect on pros, but alter low level play.
It is fair to say a few things regarding low skill players and skill, namely that balance at low skill levels should not be a priority, and that spending a few hours practicing will improve your game-play far more than whining on tl.
It is not fair, or even logically coherent, to say that low skill players are somehow immune to balance patches. If marine damage was doubled overnight, would low level players be unaffected because they should just play better?
P.S. Nothing makes me laugh harder than when someone claims "sample size too small" when discussing the entire population of games in a tournament or time period.
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Well, it does affect you in the end, but far less more than the horrible mechanics the overwhelming majority of players have, including me ofc. So no, I'm pretty adamant this statement holds a lot of truth in it.
By the way, the skill gap between two lower players may be narrower, but how easy it is to increase your skill at this level makes it irrelevant.
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Joke's on you, I don't use time warp anyway
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On July 23 2014 09:28 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 07:24 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 07:05 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:44 gneGne wrote:On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me. As much as I love Avilo for trying mech, he is definitely not a top tier Korean like you say, and I think all balance patches are directed towards problems at the top tier (mostly Koreans). Funnily, Bbyong has now done mech/raven three times in the ProLeague semifinals, but arguably on a specific map where he only won the first time surprising the opponent AND had a hidden expansion. My argument was that Avilo is able to consistently pull off Raven transitions against all kinds of players, which was meant to include top tier Koreans. To me personally, this is proof that Raven is severely underused. I watch Avilo's stream. He doesn't generally play against the Koreans (he's honestly not at that level of skill). On the once-in-a-blue-moon occasion he does face one, he loses. On July 23 2014 07:05 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:47 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me. Avilo doesn't play like normal people though, he turtles on way less bases than he should actually have at any given time and never actually attacks. And he doesn't play bio, either. With bio if you let up the pressure you will get crushed, even with the new mines, and ravens won't make up for it as they don't do shit vs mutas. And that isn't even mentioning their complete lack of viability in a bio army. Avilo does play "like normal people" who play mech and he can play Bio Raven in TvZ pretty well. What I'm trying to say here, is.... you seem to be making your arguments up out of thin air. You assume that Raven probably sucks with Bio, because no one does it (and theorycrafting maybe). Am I right? ps: i'm playing bio raven in every TvZ and it makes the zergs whine in a large number of cases I can't wait to see your debut in WCS Challenger. Of course Avilo loses against most top tier players, but it still looks like he'd have a really great chance at pulling off a Raven transition. And sometimes he does. And in superlategame he actually stands a great fight against Korean top tier Terrans... So judging from this, I believe that a great player could regularly pull off a Raven transition in top tier matches. Your counter-argument is "but Avilo loses to top tier Koreans". Let me try to sum up your opinion. Koreans don't play Raven, because there's no chances to transition? Is that what you're saying?
Doesn't even matter what my opinion is, yours is based entirely on speculation that has already been disproven by reality (bold emphasis mine). He also doesn't come close to competing with Korean top-tier Terrans. At best, he can take a lucky ladder game once in a blue moon against mid-tier Koreans.
Worse still is how he consistently fails to perform well with this style at a competitive level despite playing it all the time, against opponents who almost never face this style of play. In other words, the opponent's response isn't even optimal. This is just a general inevitability, as nobody at higher tiers plays the super late game mass-raven style on a regular basis. Usually when you buck the meta-game trend with a viable strategy, you can get a lot of free wins just by your opponent responding poorly. I honestly suspect this to be the only reason Avilo gets into GM in the first place, and also why he comes nowhere close to a professional level of play (hence his extremely early and embarassing drop outs in tournament qualifiers).
I hate to write these kinds of posts because it feels like I'm just bashing Avilo, but the real problem is people like you putting him on an unrealistic pedestal.
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On July 23 2014 07:31 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 07:05 beg wrote:
Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. I like Avilo, and I think his style is pretty neat, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he can pull off the transition against anyone. If he could, we would be seeing him in WCS by now  Of the games I've seen him lose, it's people who harass him and keep him from getting to his ultimate Raven army. He seems to fall apart to harass from top players. I don't know if that's more because his style is flawed or because his mechanics aren't solid enough to beat top players, but I would bet it's more of the former. If it actually worked, I can bet we would see Maru, or Taeja, or at least MKP whip it out from time to time. The Raven is underused because they are only useful when in high numbers and there is no viable transition into mass Raven. It only works when you have an advantage, or when your opponent screws up. I'd be curious to know what level you're playing at where bio+raven works, and if you are mid/high masters or better, I would like to see replays. Would be interesting.
GUYS, you know what? The only thing I said was "hey Terran, you should fucking use more Ravens". Ok, let's get over the "top tier Korean" stuff. Let's pretend I was just talking to the forum. Ravens are great and I feel Terrans should get them in lategame TvZ and TvT.
I mean, Avilo probably has >80% winrate in lategame and DK already talks Raven nerfs.
Bio Raven TvZ works into high GM. Avilo showed this numerous times. (I feel stupid using him all the time, but he's the only one doing this...). Also, don't underestimate his skill. He's about the level of a lower tier foreign pro gamer.
PS: My Bio Raven style is very different from Avilo's. I push the zerg with 6 Ravens if I can, "siege" closeby to a zerg base with a field of auto turrets and mines, and a lot of bio. It's pretty cool, trust me. If I had any skill at all, this would prolly work in GM too. I'm not mid+ master. Everytime I hit masters I usually stop playing for quite a while.
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On July 23 2014 08:55 Twine wrote:Welcome to silver.
Lol meet me in Masters!
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On July 23 2014 09:59 covetousrat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 08:55 Twine wrote:On July 23 2014 07:58 covetousrat wrote:
Time to switch to Terran oh yeah. Welcome to silver. Lol meet me in Masters!
I'd dare you to post your profil with terran.
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On July 23 2014 09:53 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 09:28 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 07:24 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 07:05 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:44 gneGne wrote:On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me. As much as I love Avilo for trying mech, he is definitely not a top tier Korean like you say, and I think all balance patches are directed towards problems at the top tier (mostly Koreans). Funnily, Bbyong has now done mech/raven three times in the ProLeague semifinals, but arguably on a specific map where he only won the first time surprising the opponent AND had a hidden expansion. My argument was that Avilo is able to consistently pull off Raven transitions against all kinds of players, which was meant to include top tier Koreans. To me personally, this is proof that Raven is severely underused. I watch Avilo's stream. He doesn't generally play against the Koreans (he's honestly not at that level of skill). On the once-in-a-blue-moon occasion he does face one, he loses. On July 23 2014 07:05 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:47 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me. Avilo doesn't play like normal people though, he turtles on way less bases than he should actually have at any given time and never actually attacks. And he doesn't play bio, either. With bio if you let up the pressure you will get crushed, even with the new mines, and ravens won't make up for it as they don't do shit vs mutas. And that isn't even mentioning their complete lack of viability in a bio army. Avilo does play "like normal people" who play mech and he can play Bio Raven in TvZ pretty well. What I'm trying to say here, is.... you seem to be making your arguments up out of thin air. You assume that Raven probably sucks with Bio, because no one does it (and theorycrafting maybe). Am I right? ps: i'm playing bio raven in every TvZ and it makes the zergs whine in a large number of cases I can't wait to see your debut in WCS Challenger. Of course Avilo loses against most top tier players, but it still looks like he'd have a really great chance at pulling off a Raven transition. And sometimes he does. And in superlategame he actually stands a great fight against Korean top tier Terrans... So judging from this, I believe that a great player could regularly pull off a Raven transition in top tier matches. Your counter-argument is "but Avilo loses to top tier Koreans". Let me try to sum up your opinion. Koreans don't play Raven, because there's no chances to transition? Is that what you're saying? Doesn't even matter what my opinion is, yours is based entirely on speculation that has already been disproven by reality (bold emphasis mine). He also doesn't come close to competing with Korean top-tier Terrans. At best, he can take a lucky ladder game once in a blue moon against mid-tier Koreans. Worse still is how he consistently fails to perform well with this style at a competitive level despite playing it all the time, against opponents who almost never face this style of play. In other words, the opponent's response isn't even optimal. This is just a general inevitability, as nobody at higher tiers plays the super late game mass-raven style on a regular basis. Usually when you buck the meta-game trend with a viable strategy, you can get a lot of free wins just by your opponent responding poorly. I honestly suspect this to be the only reason Avilo gets into GM in the first place, and also why he comes nowhere close to a professional level of play (hence his extremely early and embarassing drop outs in tournament qualifiers). I hate to write these kinds of posts because it feels like I'm just bashing Avilo, but the real problem is people like you putting him on an unrealistic pedestal.
I'm sad I couldn't convince you in the slightest.
Here's another point: I could show you numerous top tier Korean games with Terrans going Mech, doing great until messing up by not transitioning to Raven. It's so tangible and easy to see, once you see an actual game. Anyway, I obviously cant be assed to search for the replays now.
If you dont trust me on that one, okay.
So you stick to your argument, "Koreans don't play it, so it's not viable in top tier"?
Obviously you won't be able to pull off a transition in every game. But the games where a transition seems reasonable are quite a few, IMHO.
PS: "Terran has no AoE", trololol.
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On July 23 2014 10:03 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 09:59 covetousrat wrote:On July 23 2014 08:55 Twine wrote:On July 23 2014 07:58 covetousrat wrote:
Time to switch to Terran oh yeah. Welcome to silver. Lol meet me in Masters! I'd dare you to post your profil with terran.
Does team game counts?
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On July 23 2014 10:06 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 09:53 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 09:28 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 07:24 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 07:05 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:44 gneGne wrote:On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me. As much as I love Avilo for trying mech, he is definitely not a top tier Korean like you say, and I think all balance patches are directed towards problems at the top tier (mostly Koreans). Funnily, Bbyong has now done mech/raven three times in the ProLeague semifinals, but arguably on a specific map where he only won the first time surprising the opponent AND had a hidden expansion. My argument was that Avilo is able to consistently pull off Raven transitions against all kinds of players, which was meant to include top tier Koreans. To me personally, this is proof that Raven is severely underused. I watch Avilo's stream. He doesn't generally play against the Koreans (he's honestly not at that level of skill). On the once-in-a-blue-moon occasion he does face one, he loses. On July 23 2014 07:05 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:47 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me. Avilo doesn't play like normal people though, he turtles on way less bases than he should actually have at any given time and never actually attacks. And he doesn't play bio, either. With bio if you let up the pressure you will get crushed, even with the new mines, and ravens won't make up for it as they don't do shit vs mutas. And that isn't even mentioning their complete lack of viability in a bio army. Avilo does play "like normal people" who play mech and he can play Bio Raven in TvZ pretty well. What I'm trying to say here, is.... you seem to be making your arguments up out of thin air. You assume that Raven probably sucks with Bio, because no one does it (and theorycrafting maybe). Am I right? ps: i'm playing bio raven in every TvZ and it makes the zergs whine in a large number of cases I can't wait to see your debut in WCS Challenger. Of course Avilo loses against most top tier players, but it still looks like he'd have a really great chance at pulling off a Raven transition. And sometimes he does. And in superlategame he actually stands a great fight against Korean top tier Terrans... So judging from this, I believe that a great player could regularly pull off a Raven transition in top tier matches. Your counter-argument is "but Avilo loses to top tier Koreans". Let me try to sum up your opinion. Koreans don't play Raven, because there's no chances to transition? Is that what you're saying? Doesn't even matter what my opinion is, yours is based entirely on speculation that has already been disproven by reality (bold emphasis mine). He also doesn't come close to competing with Korean top-tier Terrans. At best, he can take a lucky ladder game once in a blue moon against mid-tier Koreans. Worse still is how he consistently fails to perform well with this style at a competitive level despite playing it all the time, against opponents who almost never face this style of play. In other words, the opponent's response isn't even optimal. This is just a general inevitability, as nobody at higher tiers plays the super late game mass-raven style on a regular basis. Usually when you buck the meta-game trend with a viable strategy, you can get a lot of free wins just by your opponent responding poorly. I honestly suspect this to be the only reason Avilo gets into GM in the first place, and also why he comes nowhere close to a professional level of play (hence his extremely early and embarassing drop outs in tournament qualifiers). I hate to write these kinds of posts because it feels like I'm just bashing Avilo, but the real problem is people like you putting him on an unrealistic pedestal. I'm sad I couldn't convince you in the slightest. Here's another point: I could show you numerous top tier Korean games with Terrans going Mech, doing great until messing up by not transitioning to Raven. It's so tangible and easy to see, once you see an actual game. Anyway, I obviously cant be assed to search for the replays now. If you dont trust me on that one, okay. So you stick to your argument, "Koreans don't play it, so it's not viable in top tier"? Obviously you won't be able to pull off a transition in every game. But the games where a transition seems reasonable are quite a few, IMHO. PS: "Terran has no AoE", trololol.
I-I c-can show you b-but huh c-can't search replay f-for you. I s-swear.
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On July 23 2014 10:10 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 10:06 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 09:53 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 09:28 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 07:24 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 07:05 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:44 gneGne wrote:On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me. As much as I love Avilo for trying mech, he is definitely not a top tier Korean like you say, and I think all balance patches are directed towards problems at the top tier (mostly Koreans). Funnily, Bbyong has now done mech/raven three times in the ProLeague semifinals, but arguably on a specific map where he only won the first time surprising the opponent AND had a hidden expansion. My argument was that Avilo is able to consistently pull off Raven transitions against all kinds of players, which was meant to include top tier Koreans. To me personally, this is proof that Raven is severely underused. I watch Avilo's stream. He doesn't generally play against the Koreans (he's honestly not at that level of skill). On the once-in-a-blue-moon occasion he does face one, he loses. On July 23 2014 07:05 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:47 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me. Avilo doesn't play like normal people though, he turtles on way less bases than he should actually have at any given time and never actually attacks. And he doesn't play bio, either. With bio if you let up the pressure you will get crushed, even with the new mines, and ravens won't make up for it as they don't do shit vs mutas. And that isn't even mentioning their complete lack of viability in a bio army. Avilo does play "like normal people" who play mech and he can play Bio Raven in TvZ pretty well. What I'm trying to say here, is.... you seem to be making your arguments up out of thin air. You assume that Raven probably sucks with Bio, because no one does it (and theorycrafting maybe). Am I right? ps: i'm playing bio raven in every TvZ and it makes the zergs whine in a large number of cases I can't wait to see your debut in WCS Challenger. Of course Avilo loses against most top tier players, but it still looks like he'd have a really great chance at pulling off a Raven transition. And sometimes he does. And in superlategame he actually stands a great fight against Korean top tier Terrans... So judging from this, I believe that a great player could regularly pull off a Raven transition in top tier matches. Your counter-argument is "but Avilo loses to top tier Koreans". Let me try to sum up your opinion. Koreans don't play Raven, because there's no chances to transition? Is that what you're saying? Doesn't even matter what my opinion is, yours is based entirely on speculation that has already been disproven by reality (bold emphasis mine). He also doesn't come close to competing with Korean top-tier Terrans. At best, he can take a lucky ladder game once in a blue moon against mid-tier Koreans. Worse still is how he consistently fails to perform well with this style at a competitive level despite playing it all the time, against opponents who almost never face this style of play. In other words, the opponent's response isn't even optimal. This is just a general inevitability, as nobody at higher tiers plays the super late game mass-raven style on a regular basis. Usually when you buck the meta-game trend with a viable strategy, you can get a lot of free wins just by your opponent responding poorly. I honestly suspect this to be the only reason Avilo gets into GM in the first place, and also why he comes nowhere close to a professional level of play (hence his extremely early and embarassing drop outs in tournament qualifiers). I hate to write these kinds of posts because it feels like I'm just bashing Avilo, but the real problem is people like you putting him on an unrealistic pedestal. I'm sad I couldn't convince you in the slightest. Here's another point: I could show you numerous top tier Korean games with Terrans going Mech, doing great until messing up by not transitioning to Raven. It's so tangible and easy to see, once you see an actual game. Anyway, I obviously cant be assed to search for the replays now. If you dont trust me on that one, okay. So you stick to your argument, "Koreans don't play it, so it's not viable in top tier"? Obviously you won't be able to pull off a transition in every game. But the games where a transition seems reasonable are quite a few, IMHO. PS: "Terran has no AoE", trololol. I-I c-can show you b-but huh c-can't search replay f-for you. I s-swear.
I think I remember a Bbyong vs Dark game on Waystation that qualifies here. I could be wrong though.
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Why is always this stupid try to balance the game around 1 damn unit per expa? The main problem is Photon Over, not Time Warp, the main buff could be done on Tank with some +X vs Shield instead the Widow Mine.
Lot of things better could be tried to diversify the options on every MU, but no, it is like "Fuck Terran, go Widow Mine or die hard", "Free Macro Brotoss, don't worry bro on this Expa", and finally "Go and defend mostly with Queens and Static Defence while getting free units later Zergs"
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EPT
