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On July 23 2014 14:39 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 13:23 StaraCroft wrote:
Is this really what terrans want? This basically means if you don't pull your probes in time against an early mine drop you will loose to one mine. And you might still loose if they send in a second medivac into the retreat path of your probes (haven't seen anyone do this since the beta).
This doesn't seem like it addresses any balance concerns and will just give random wins to terran if they happen to land a lucky widow mine shot.
Yeah, lucky to find a protoss that has huge reaction times and does not move probes.
You obviously haven't played against this in the beta. If you don't pull the probes before the mine gets dropped it is better to not move them at all because you will just guide the widow mine shot into all of your probes loosing you the game instantly. Of course it's possible to play against this, but a fraction of a second can make the difference between no units lost and 16 probes lost. It is extremely coinflippy.
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On July 23 2014 09:13 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 07:24 Big J wrote:
The point is, that it doesnt matter if you nerf the marine or buff the immortal for tanks to deal with 1-1-1. In either case, you nerf 1-1-1. In either case, you nerf a marinebased build (that usually included 2-3raxes). Nerfing the marine would nerf Terran across the board, which is ridiculous, as the only issue was 1-1-1. The siege tank was the backbone that made 1-1-1 so strong, not the marine. This is why 1-1-1 broke with the immortal buff; Protoss could more reliably shut down the tanks, rendering the all-in worthless.
Mid 2011 Terran was too strong across the board. If it had broken a Terran matchup, you could have still buffed something else. Instead they strengthened the Immortal to counter tanks better and you really defend them for that? As if Immortals hadn't been strong enough vs tanks before.
On July 23 2014 09:13 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 07:24 Big J wrote:
Those mapsize argumentations are extreme hindsight... we played the game on those maps and not on others. Yes, we played the games on those maps, and that's why we saw the respective nerfs. It's also why we saw siege tank buffs with the new, larger maps. What part of that are you not understanding? Back when you had a 20 second rush distance to your opponent, stim timings were too strong, so stim research time was nerfed accordingly to delay the timing. The game is balanced according to the current state of the game + ladder pool; one of the big community suggestions to buff Terran this time around was to revert the stim research time nerf, specifically because the rush distances have changed since then. Blizzard disregarded that one in favour of reverting the WM nerf, but still.
EVERYTHING was balanced around those maps. You can argue in favor of buffing ANYTHING with the argumentation "Golly gush, Colossi were balanced with smaller maps in mind. Time for a buff, LAZOOOORRRRZZZ+++". It's a stupid argument and hindsight.
On July 23 2014 09:13 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 07:24 Big J wrote:
Quenn buff was to somewhat cite DK to make it easier for zerg to break the hellion contains to get into a better posiion against follow up aggression. Guess what that follow up aggression usually was? Marine+something. You know how else they could have made those pushes weaker? By making them weaker... You've had two people correct you on this already now, but you still keep saying this nonsense. The queen was buffed to deal with early hellion pressure, which was too strong. It was too strong because Terran could do literally anything behind it and the Zerg was stuck on 2 bases. This had absolutely nothing to do with marines; Terran being up 3 bases to 2 vs a Zerg is a practically unwinnable situation for Z, regardless of what the follow-up timing is.
And what do you mean with "Terran could do literally anything behind it"? I hope bio, because it's the only thing they were doing. Mech was hardly explored back then.
And no, it was neither impossible to win with two-base muta builds nor impossible to take a third with roach expands. Theses builds all just had in common that they were still not good against one of the 5 or more 2base allins that a Terran could do back in the days, because you started your creepspread at nothing in the midgame.
On July 23 2014 09:13 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 07:24 Big J wrote:
And so on and so on. Many of the things Terrans did in 2010-11 only were broken because they made it too hard to hold follow up bio play, against which you need(ed) very severe precautions. They made it too hard to hold ANY follow-up play, not just bio, as the non-Terran was always on the backfoot. Terran is facing the same issue now, hence the buffs. If you actually think marines are too good, why don't you play Terran and mass marines? See how far you get.
If you actually think that I'm arguing that Terran is broken, then please refrain from answering.
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Still annoyed they are buffing WM. I'd rather see a less unit buffed  .
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That's surprising.
Between Taeja winning IEM and terran rebound in code A I was sure that Blizzard would drop everything but the thor change.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On July 23 2014 16:04 pmp10 wrote:
That's surprising.
Between Taeja winning IEM and terran rebound in code A I was sure that Blizzard would drop everything but the thor change.
The worst thing happened. As Flash noted in interview - don't change the game so often, leave it be. Now it looks like Terrans are rising again and BOOM, they need a buff. I wonder what that could do. I expect nerfing mine again. Well, why does this reminds me warp gate tech from Wings? ><
Edit - even Flash managed to get to Code S! ;]
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On July 23 2014 16:04 pmp10 wrote:
That's surprising.
Between Taeja winning IEM and terran rebound in code A I was sure that Blizzard would drop everything but the thor change.
Why would they drop needed mine changes for PVZ, just because 1 or 2 Terrans overseas is doing good? Teaja is just a godly player, does not mean Terran still has issues in TVZ and TVP. It's been 1 year since HOTS came out, Korean Zergs are perfectly fine with splitting vs old widow mines and playing more micro oriented instead of carelessly a moving banelings with out much splitting.
Muta cloud+speed overseer is what a lot of Koreans used to snipe off un protected widow mines back than, and it worked well before they nerfed the mine. Also Life back then was able to micro very well vs the old widow mine, it still does huge splash dmg to the Terran army.
Most Koreans agree that they should of left the Widow mine alone in the first place and let players adapt since it was a new expac, but low league community cried so much Blizzard just nerfed it. David Kim even said he regrets nerfing the widow mine.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On July 23 2014 16:13 LingBlingBling wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 16:04 pmp10 wrote:
That's surprising.
Between Taeja winning IEM and terran rebound in code A I was sure that Blizzard would drop everything but the thor change. Why would they drop needed mine changes for PVZ, just because 1 or 2 Terrans overseas is doing good? Teaja is just a godly player, does not mean Terran still has issues in TVZ and TVP. It's been 1 year since HOTS came out, Korean Zergs are perfectly fine with splitting vs old widow mines and playing more micro oriented instead of carelessly a moving banelings with out much splitting. Muta cloud+speed overseer is what a lot of Koreans used to snipe off un protected widow mines back than, and it worked well before they nerfed the mine. Also Life back then was able to micro very well vs the old widow mine, it still does huge splash dmg to the Terran army. Most Koreans agree that they should of left the Widow mine alone in the first place and let players adapt since it was a new expac, but low league community cried so much Blizzard just nerfed it. David Kim even said he regrets nerfing the widow mine.
Well the problem is, that they are NOT returning to the old widow mine, you know? Remove the shield bonus damage and I bet that most of the P players will be angry, but they will accept that change.
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Well if this is supposed to help TvP, its pretty disappointing, in fact its more of a TvZ patch tbh. Complete lack of vision and inspiration by Mr Kim on show here.
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Soon™ or soon? Tbh I hope the first, otherwise my liquibets may be in jeopardy. 
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On July 23 2014 16:13 LingBlingBling wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 16:04 pmp10 wrote:
That's surprising.
Between Taeja winning IEM and terran rebound in code A I was sure that Blizzard would drop everything but the thor change. Why would they drop needed mine changes for PVZ, just because 1 or 2 Terrans overseas is doing good? Teaja is just a godly player, does not mean Terran still has issues in TVZ and TVP. It's been 1 year since HOTS came out,
No - they would drop them because terran is doing better in GSL.
That was the whole reason that 'poor terrans' movement got so much support.
On July 23 2014 16:13 LingBlingBling wrote:
Korean Zergs are perfectly fine with splitting vs old widow mines and playing more micro oriented instead of carelessly a moving banelings with out much splitting.
Muta cloud+speed overseer is what a lot of Koreans used to snipe off un protected widow mines back than, and it worked well before they nerfed the mine. Also Life back then was able to micro very well vs the old widow mine, it still does huge splash dmg to the Terran army.
Most Koreans agree that they should of left the Widow mine alone in the first place and let players adapt since it was a new expac, but low league community cried so much Blizzard just nerfed it. David Kim even said he regrets nerfing the widow mine.
First of all one correction: mine was nerfed for the sake of variety.
And it was a good idea since every TvZ devolved into the same parade-push eventually making viewers bored.
The reason things ended badly balance-wise was due to Blizzards refusal to seriously buff other terran options (sounds familiar?).
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On July 23 2014 15:42 StaraCroft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 14:39 Karpfen wrote:On July 23 2014 13:23 StaraCroft wrote:
Is this really what terrans want? This basically means if you don't pull your probes in time against an early mine drop you will loose to one mine. And you might still loose if they send in a second medivac into the retreat path of your probes (haven't seen anyone do this since the beta).
This doesn't seem like it addresses any balance concerns and will just give random wins to terran if they happen to land a lucky widow mine shot.
Yeah, lucky to find a protoss that has huge reaction times and does not move probes. You obviously haven't played against this in the beta. If you don't pull the probes before the mine gets dropped it is better to not move them at all because you will just guide the widow mine shot into all of your probes loosing you the game instantly. Of course it's possible to play against this, but a fraction of a second can make the difference between no units lost and 16 probes lost. It is extremely coinflippy.
Widow mines take 3 seconds to burrow and another 1.5 seconds to fire. If you cant react to widow mines in 4.5 seconds, then I really dont know what to say. Most widow mines get only 3-4 kills before they die anyways. On the other hand, the oracle...
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And what do you mean with "Terran could do literally anything behind it"? I hope bio, because it's the only thing they were doing. Mech was hardly explored back then.
The problem wasn't that terran could go into a 2 base bio after a reactor hellion expand.
Rather, the issue was that they could do that or for really greedy builds or some kind of 2 base allin (without Marines) such as double factory Reactor or Maurauder Hellion. And I guess Banshee's were quite strong at one point in time before Queen range buff as well.
Then ofc comes the fact that terran wasn't considered imba in the late-game. Broodlord/infestor was imbalanced lategame after the Ghost nerf, and I think most people probably was aware of that before the Queen nerf, but it was hard for zergs at pro level to consistently get there, so it wasn't this big topic.
But nerfing Marines really wouldn't adress the early game issue very efficiently. A 5-10% DPS nerf would still make terran imbalanced in this phase of the game, but later game the matchup would be quite zerg favored.
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On July 23 2014 16:13 LingBlingBling wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 16:04 pmp10 wrote:
That's surprising.
Between Taeja winning IEM and terran rebound in code A I was sure that Blizzard would drop everything but the thor change. Why would they drop needed mine changes for PVZ, just because 1 or 2 Terrans overseas is doing good? Teaja is just a godly player, does not mean Terran still has issues in TVZ and TVP. It's been 1 year since HOTS came out, Korean Zergs are perfectly fine with splitting vs old widow mines and playing more micro oriented instead of carelessly a moving banelings with out much splitting. Muta cloud+speed overseer is what a lot of Koreans used to snipe off un protected widow mines back than, and it worked well before they nerfed the mine. Also Life back then was able to micro very well vs the old widow mine, it still does huge splash dmg to the Terran army. Most Koreans agree that they should of left the Widow mine alone in the first place and let players adapt since it was a new expac, but low league community cried so much Blizzard just nerfed it. David Kim even said he regrets nerfing the widow mine.
The problem for zerg is not that they are returning to the old mine but that they are returning to the old mine WITH hellbat and siege tank buffs.
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On July 23 2014 16:58 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 15:42 StaraCroft wrote:On July 23 2014 14:39 Karpfen wrote:On July 23 2014 13:23 StaraCroft wrote:
Is this really what terrans want? This basically means if you don't pull your probes in time against an early mine drop you will loose to one mine. And you might still loose if they send in a second medivac into the retreat path of your probes (haven't seen anyone do this since the beta).
This doesn't seem like it addresses any balance concerns and will just give random wins to terran if they happen to land a lucky widow mine shot.
Yeah, lucky to find a protoss that has huge reaction times and does not move probes. You obviously haven't played against this in the beta. If you don't pull the probes before the mine gets dropped it is better to not move them at all because you will just guide the widow mine shot into all of your probes loosing you the game instantly. Of course it's possible to play against this, but a fraction of a second can make the difference between no units lost and 16 probes lost. It is extremely coinflippy. Widow mines take 3 seconds to burrow and another 1.5 seconds to fire. If you cant react to widow mines in 4.5 seconds, then I really dont know what to say. Most widow mines get only 3-4 kills before they die anyways. On the other hand, the oracle...
A widow mine that got 3-4 kills before the patch will end the game after the patch. Just to make sure you realize this: One WM will kill every probe in the entire spash radius of 1.75 instantly, which is half a mineral line. I'm not saying it will be impossible to defend. I've played against this for months. I'm just saying it increases the punishment for making a mistake as protoss. It's making a binary unit even more binary. It will lead to some easy wins if P makes a mistake, and will change almost nothing if they don't.
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On July 23 2014 17:31 StaraCroft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 16:58 Loccstana wrote:On July 23 2014 15:42 StaraCroft wrote:On July 23 2014 14:39 Karpfen wrote:On July 23 2014 13:23 StaraCroft wrote:
Is this really what terrans want? This basically means if you don't pull your probes in time against an early mine drop you will loose to one mine. And you might still loose if they send in a second medivac into the retreat path of your probes (haven't seen anyone do this since the beta).
This doesn't seem like it addresses any balance concerns and will just give random wins to terran if they happen to land a lucky widow mine shot.
Yeah, lucky to find a protoss that has huge reaction times and does not move probes. You obviously haven't played against this in the beta. If you don't pull the probes before the mine gets dropped it is better to not move them at all because you will just guide the widow mine shot into all of your probes loosing you the game instantly. Of course it's possible to play against this, but a fraction of a second can make the difference between no units lost and 16 probes lost. It is extremely coinflippy. Widow mines take 3 seconds to burrow and another 1.5 seconds to fire. If you cant react to widow mines in 4.5 seconds, then I really dont know what to say. Most widow mines get only 3-4 kills before they die anyways. On the other hand, the oracle... A widow mine that got 3-4 kills before the patch will end the game after the patch. Just to make sure you realize this: One WM will kill every probe in the entire spash radius of 1.75 instantly, which is half a mineral line. I'm not saying it will be impossible to defend. I've played against this for months. I'm just saying it increases the punishment for making a mistake as protoss. It's making a binary unit even more binary. It will lead to some easy wins if P makes a mistake, and will change almost nothing if they don't.
Basically like the oracle so where is the problem?
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On July 23 2014 17:33 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 17:31 StaraCroft wrote:On July 23 2014 16:58 Loccstana wrote:On July 23 2014 15:42 StaraCroft wrote:On July 23 2014 14:39 Karpfen wrote:On July 23 2014 13:23 StaraCroft wrote:
Is this really what terrans want? This basically means if you don't pull your probes in time against an early mine drop you will loose to one mine. And you might still loose if they send in a second medivac into the retreat path of your probes (haven't seen anyone do this since the beta).
This doesn't seem like it addresses any balance concerns and will just give random wins to terran if they happen to land a lucky widow mine shot.
Yeah, lucky to find a protoss that has huge reaction times and does not move probes. You obviously haven't played against this in the beta. If you don't pull the probes before the mine gets dropped it is better to not move them at all because you will just guide the widow mine shot into all of your probes loosing you the game instantly. Of course it's possible to play against this, but a fraction of a second can make the difference between no units lost and 16 probes lost. It is extremely coinflippy. Widow mines take 3 seconds to burrow and another 1.5 seconds to fire. If you cant react to widow mines in 4.5 seconds, then I really dont know what to say. Most widow mines get only 3-4 kills before they die anyways. On the other hand, the oracle... A widow mine that got 3-4 kills before the patch will end the game after the patch. Just to make sure you realize this: One WM will kill every probe in the entire spash radius of 1.75 instantly, which is half a mineral line. I'm not saying it will be impossible to defend. I've played against this for months. I'm just saying it increases the punishment for making a mistake as protoss. It's making a binary unit even more binary. It will lead to some easy wins if P makes a mistake, and will change almost nothing if they don't. Basically like the oracle so where is the problem?
Even Oracle is not so punishing as new mine(for maximizing the effect you have to target SCVs in fact(or larvae in zerg case  ) and buffing Oracle is a stupid decision agreed across all races, so you are saying that you agree that buffing mine is a little bigger idiocy?
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I agree that the oracle is a pretty stupid unit, but how does one unit being stupid make it ok for another unit to be equally or more stupid?
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Cool stuff (better than nothing lol), at last I, too, might start laddering again Get this masters star already!!!
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On July 23 2014 16:58 Loccstana wrote:
Widow mines take 3 seconds to burrow and another 1.5 seconds to fire. If you cant react to widow mines in 4.5 seconds, then I really dont know what to say. Most widow mines get only 3-4 kills before they die anyways. On the other hand, the oracle...
It's not about reacting in 5 seconds. If you simply select all your probes and tell them to move to X destination the probes on the side of the minerals further away from the destination will have to enter the mine's activation area, move across the entire diameter of said aream and exit it at the far side in order to path to that destination. They can't do that in 4 seconds so the WM will fire at them. To avoid a probe massacre against a speed medivac boosting in from the fog of war you quite literally need to split your probes into 3 different control groups and tell them to move in three different directions in one second. A single straggler probe that does not escape fast enough will cause the mine to fire and splash them all to death, since they're bunched up. Even if you do this correctly you will still often lose half your probes when the WM targets the probe that just came out of your assimilator, since you couldn't give it orders while it was in there.
More importantly, the widow mine can do this even if your photon overcharge is active and you have an observer in place. PI can't kill a mine before it burrows and fires. You then have to repeat the ridiculous micro 3 seconds later when the medivac flies to your expansion and drops a mine there.
It's very similar to defending against a 4x blue flame hellion drop from WoL with only like 3 or 4 stalkers in place, 300 APM probe splitting or lose two thirds of them. The difference was in WoL you could block them with forcefields, against these mines there's nothing to do besides 300 APM split micro or lose unless you scouted the medivac incoming in advance. None of your units at that stage of the game can kill a mine before it burrows.
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On July 23 2014 17:31 StaraCroft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 16:58 Loccstana wrote:On July 23 2014 15:42 StaraCroft wrote:On July 23 2014 14:39 Karpfen wrote:On July 23 2014 13:23 StaraCroft wrote:
Is this really what terrans want? This basically means if you don't pull your probes in time against an early mine drop you will loose to one mine. And you might still loose if they send in a second medivac into the retreat path of your probes (haven't seen anyone do this since the beta).
This doesn't seem like it addresses any balance concerns and will just give random wins to terran if they happen to land a lucky widow mine shot.
Yeah, lucky to find a protoss that has huge reaction times and does not move probes. You obviously haven't played against this in the beta. If you don't pull the probes before the mine gets dropped it is better to not move them at all because you will just guide the widow mine shot into all of your probes loosing you the game instantly. Of course it's possible to play against this, but a fraction of a second can make the difference between no units lost and 16 probes lost. It is extremely coinflippy. Widow mines take 3 seconds to burrow and another 1.5 seconds to fire. If you cant react to widow mines in 4.5 seconds, then I really dont know what to say. Most widow mines get only 3-4 kills before they die anyways. On the other hand, the oracle... A widow mine that got 3-4 kills before the patch will end the game after the patch. Just to make sure you realize this: One WM will kill every probe in the entire spash radius of 1.75 instantly, which is half a mineral line. I'm not saying it will be impossible to defend. I've played against this for months. I'm just saying it increases the punishment for making a mistake as protoss. It's making a binary unit even more binary. It will lead to some easy wins if P makes a mistake, and will change almost nothing if they don't. Again, how is this a bad thing ?
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EPT
