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I hope this patch is delayed at least until the Proleague final is finished.
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SKT doesn't have terrans, it won't matter  .
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On July 23 2014 16:13 LingBlingBling wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 16:04 pmp10 wrote:
That's surprising.
Between Taeja winning IEM and terran rebound in code A I was sure that Blizzard would drop everything but the thor change. Why would they drop needed mine changes for PVZ, just because 1 or 2 Terrans overseas is doing good? Teaja is just a godly player, does not mean Terran still has issues in TVZ and TVP. It's been 1 year since HOTS came out, Korean Zergs are perfectly fine with splitting vs old widow mines and playing more micro oriented instead of carelessly a moving banelings with out much splitting. Muta cloud+speed overseer is what a lot of Koreans used to snipe off un protected widow mines back than, and it worked well before they nerfed the mine. Also Life back then was able to micro very well vs the old widow mine, it still does huge splash dmg to the Terran army. Most Koreans agree that they should of left the Widow mine alone in the first place and let players adapt since it was a new expac, but low league community cried so much Blizzard just nerfed it. David Kim even said he regrets nerfing the widow mine.
Terrans do decently well in Code A as well in TvZ. It's just TvP that is a problem right now - but the patch doesn't really help there, does it?
And overseas TvZ doesn't seem to be a problem neither, generally speaking.
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On July 23 2014 18:21 gneGne wrote:SKT doesn't have terrans, it won't matter .
I wasn't aware that SKT is set to play against SKT. 
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Guess i'll start laddering now before i cant win anymore vs Terran
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I feel like this patch is outright overdoing it. I don't see how TvZ won't turn hugely in T favor, and I'm even afraid for TvP. Let me explain. With this totally impossible to understand +shields buff, colossi is now officially the only way to play a macro game in PvT (whether it's colossi blink double forge or colossi phoenix). And with Time Warp severely nerfed (which is a good thing), scvs pulls will come back with a vengeance.
I guess it's good since so many people seem to think whenever a T wins, it's out of skill, whereas whenever a Z/P wins it's because their race carries them (like Zest, Rain, soO or Life are just pushovers who wouldn't be diamond with T, what a joke). Since T will probably enter an era of dominance, those people will probably be happy.
It's sad because I think the ideas behind this patch showed we were heading towards the right direction (Thor buff isn't significant, but the Time Warp nerf was needed). But this widow mine buff is too much -I was pretty convinced there would be another iteration of the patch with a solid buff, but not restoring the pre patch widow mine.
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On July 23 2014 10:59 Popkiller wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 09:37 r691175002 wrote:On July 23 2014 09:19 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 23 2014 09:08 Popkiller wrote:
best part about playing in the gold league is I feel like balance patches don't really affect me. whether my race is under/overpowered, i'm too bad to really notice and there's always room for improvement on my part. Well what you say is actually true for everyone except maybe top KR players, but most people are mistaken and think they're good enough to be affected by balance patches (me the first !). This drivel needs to die. It has no backing in reality and is just a senseless way for people to kill balance discussion without actually having to refute any arguments. Its almost as bad as "Sample size too small!" (Unfailingly used by people who don't even know what the statistical definition of a sample is...) Lower skill players are more affected by balance than professional players by any quantitative measure. This is true for two major reasons: First, the lower skill player-base is many, many, orders of magnitude larger, therefore even the smallest alterations in balance have statistically significant outcomes. Secondly, as there are many more lower skill players, the average skill difference is much smaller. This is further compounded by the matchmaking system which attempts to generate even matchups. Even matchups are far more likely to have their outcome altered by balance than a RO8 taeja vs foreigner stomp. If you accept the above two points, is impossible to make a coherent argument that balance patches do not affect lower level players. If you want empirical proof, ladder distribution statistics are far more volatile than high-level win rates. In fact, the idea that a patch exclusively affects high level play was contradicted in the very post that this thread is discussing! The Thor patch is expected to have a marginal affect on pros, but alter low level play. It is fair to say a few things regarding low skill players and skill, namely that balance at low skill levels should not be a priority, and that spending a few hours practicing will improve your game-play far more than whining on tl. It is not fair, or even logically coherent, to say that low skill players are somehow immune to balance patches. If marine damage was doubled overnight, would low level players be unaffected because they should just play better? P.S. Nothing makes me laugh harder than when someone claims "sample size too small" when discussing the entire population of games in a tournament or time period. I'm not saying it doesn't affect my games, I'm just saying it doesn't affect my mindset. If I lose to an equally-skilled Protoss or Zerg because Terran is underpowered, so what? At my level, better macro and mechanics alone would have been enough to beat them, regardless of balance. So when I lose, the answer to "what could I have done differently?" isn't "Nothing, the game is imbalanced." The answer is simple: play more and improve my macro. It's the same answer it would have been if the game was 100% balanced. I'm not gonna get worked up over the game's balance, I'll leave that for the pros who are actually trying to make a living from this and are competing at a level where "just get better" isn't always a good enough answer.
Which means that, despite the fact that the system wants to 'equally match' players, you will have to do more effort to beat an equally matched player than he will need to beat you. This is imbalance. If a gold level terran needs platinum level mechanics to stay on top of a gold level protoss, there is something wrong.
@PkfWire: I wouldn't be sad if Terran entered an era of dominance because TvX games tend to be the most interesting by far.
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While in some aspects I could agree that TvX games are indeed interesting from a spectator point of view, I don't see this lasting long when within a week every TvZ is a 4M push vs ling muta bane again and every TvP is bio vs colossi (well, nothing changed here...). Ha ha, if T is dominant again, at least TvT is quite a diverse match-up !
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just reduce the scan energy cost to 35 and i think its close enough to balanced
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With "balanced", do you mean "Terran can't now lose" ?
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On July 23 2014 18:40 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I feel like this patch is outright overdoing it. I don't see how TvZ won't turn hugely in T favor, and I'm even afraid for TvP. Let me explain. With this totally impossible to understand +shields buff, colossi is now officially the only way to play a macro game in PvT (whether it's colossi blink double forge or colossi phoenix). And with Time Warp severely nerfed (which is a good thing), scvs pulls will come back with a vengeance.
I guess it's good since so many people seem to think whenever a T wins, it's out of skill, whereas whenever a Z/P wins it's because their race carries them (like Zest, Rain, soO or Life are just pushovers who wouldn't be diamond with T, what a joke). Since T will probably enter an era of dominance, those people will probably be happy.
It's sad because I think the ideas behind this patch showed we were heading towards the right direction (Thor buff isn't significant, but the Time Warp nerf was needed). But this widow mine buff is too much -I was pretty convinced there would be another iteration of the patch with a solid buff, but not restoring the pre patch widow mine.
Everything that I crossed out is completely balance irrelevant. So your only reason why TvP will become imbalanced is that SCV pulls are stronger because of weaker TW?
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Flash didnt want any patch. Is he happy or sad now?
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I just said I'm afraid for TvP, not that I foresee any imbalance. SCV pulls are basically figured out, but Time Warp played a huge role in that, so that has to be kept an eye upon. That means wait and see. For TvZ, I can't imagine how Z will avoid having to go through a rough time of adaptation.
Anyway, discussing this patch further that "I think the mine buff is too much and should have been a bit toned down" is useless. The patch is going through, ill-advised though it may be. Everyone will adapt.
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Well, this patch is basically a recall of earlier changes except for time warp. So Flash is probably happy.
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On July 23 2014 20:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I just said I'm afraid for TvP, not that I foresee any imbalance. SCV pulls are basically figured out, but Time Warp played a huge role in that, so that has to be kept an eye upon. That means wait and see. For TvZ, I can't imagine how Z will avoid having to go through a rough time of adaptation.
Anyway, discussing this patch further that "I think the mine buff is too much and should have been a bit toned down" is useless. The patch is going through, ill-advised though it may be. Everyone will adapt.
ok, sorry. read this wrong.
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Considering the Hydra buff, and how Roach based builds and Roach Hydra based builds vs Terran are being played at the highest Korean level with success, the mine reverted to the original state from start of HOTS is going to even out the playing field for Terran, It's not OP, Bio Vs ling bling will now be micro oriented, instead of crying, time for Zergs to start learning to micro better like Terran has had to do.
But if you don't want to learn mechanics and micro, Zerg can still go roach/hydra and force the Terran into Tank production, Even the old Widow mines were pretty crap vs Roach/hydra/Viper.
I still wish David Kim would focus on other aspects to help the PVT match up, but I guess it's to late into HOTS to make major changes and we will probably have to wait until next expac.
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I still feel that this patch does not address the late game weakness of terran compared to other races, protoss and zerg.
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Germany1923 Posts
On July 23 2014 18:16 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 17:31 StaraCroft wrote:On July 23 2014 16:58 Loccstana wrote:On July 23 2014 15:42 StaraCroft wrote:On July 23 2014 14:39 Karpfen wrote:On July 23 2014 13:23 StaraCroft wrote:
Is this really what terrans want? This basically means if you don't pull your probes in time against an early mine drop you will loose to one mine. And you might still loose if they send in a second medivac into the retreat path of your probes (haven't seen anyone do this since the beta).
This doesn't seem like it addresses any balance concerns and will just give random wins to terran if they happen to land a lucky widow mine shot.
Yeah, lucky to find a protoss that has huge reaction times and does not move probes. You obviously haven't played against this in the beta. If you don't pull the probes before the mine gets dropped it is better to not move them at all because you will just guide the widow mine shot into all of your probes loosing you the game instantly. Of course it's possible to play against this, but a fraction of a second can make the difference between no units lost and 16 probes lost. It is extremely coinflippy. Widow mines take 3 seconds to burrow and another 1.5 seconds to fire. If you cant react to widow mines in 4.5 seconds, then I really dont know what to say. Most widow mines get only 3-4 kills before they die anyways. On the other hand, the oracle... A widow mine that got 3-4 kills before the patch will end the game after the patch. Just to make sure you realize this: One WM will kill every probe in the entire spash radius of 1.75 instantly, which is half a mineral line. I'm not saying it will be impossible to defend. I've played against this for months. I'm just saying it increases the punishment for making a mistake as protoss. It's making a binary unit even more binary. It will lead to some easy wins if P makes a mistake, and will change almost nothing if they don't. Again, how is this a bad thing ?
Don't see a problem in this department, either. Just build an Oracle and return the favor
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When is it getting implemented?
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On July 23 2014 22:30 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 18:16 Godwrath wrote:On July 23 2014 17:31 StaraCroft wrote:On July 23 2014 16:58 Loccstana wrote:On July 23 2014 15:42 StaraCroft wrote:On July 23 2014 14:39 Karpfen wrote:On July 23 2014 13:23 StaraCroft wrote:
Is this really what terrans want? This basically means if you don't pull your probes in time against an early mine drop you will loose to one mine. And you might still loose if they send in a second medivac into the retreat path of your probes (haven't seen anyone do this since the beta).
This doesn't seem like it addresses any balance concerns and will just give random wins to terran if they happen to land a lucky widow mine shot.
Yeah, lucky to find a protoss that has huge reaction times and does not move probes. You obviously haven't played against this in the beta. If you don't pull the probes before the mine gets dropped it is better to not move them at all because you will just guide the widow mine shot into all of your probes loosing you the game instantly. Of course it's possible to play against this, but a fraction of a second can make the difference between no units lost and 16 probes lost. It is extremely coinflippy. Widow mines take 3 seconds to burrow and another 1.5 seconds to fire. If you cant react to widow mines in 4.5 seconds, then I really dont know what to say. Most widow mines get only 3-4 kills before they die anyways. On the other hand, the oracle... A widow mine that got 3-4 kills before the patch will end the game after the patch. Just to make sure you realize this: One WM will kill every probe in the entire spash radius of 1.75 instantly, which is half a mineral line. I'm not saying it will be impossible to defend. I've played against this for months. I'm just saying it increases the punishment for making a mistake as protoss. It's making a binary unit even more binary. It will lead to some easy wins if P makes a mistake, and will change almost nothing if they don't. Again, how is this a bad thing ? Don't see a problem in this department, either. Just build an Oracle and return the favor
The widow mine vs oracle comparison is somewhat lacking. One is an almost natural transition in a normal bio setup. The other requires a a separate structure most likely used only for this oracle.
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EPT
