EPTBalance Patch Coming Soon - July 22 - Page 14
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Loccstana
United States833 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
1) Tanks do more damage. 2) Factories become less expensive. 3) Immortals get less shields. 4) Tempest supply increased to 6. This change, while helping bio, does not do much for mech. I have basically stopped watching pro games because mech is not viable at pro level outside of TvT. As a mech player I learn nothing from watching 300+ APM Koreans running around with bio. I have seen it for years and it is simply boring. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 23 2014 23:55 Loccstana wrote: I would like to see the AI of the widow mine improved. For example, it would try not to hit single isolated units and instead aim for the center of enemy' mass. That's called miro gestion and focus firing. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 24 2014 00:12 MockHamill wrote: I would have preferred: 1) Tanks do more damage. 2) Factories become less expensive. 3) Immortals get less shields. 4) Tempest supply increased to 6. This change, while helping bio, does not do much for mech. I have basically stopped watching pro games because mech is not viable at pro level outside of TvT. As a mech player I learn nothing from watching 300+ APM Koreans running around with bio. I have seen it for years and it is simply boring. Well, then you also miss out on the Mech players like SuNo or Flash. But yes, I think makig tanks behave more like mines - strong single target damage, reasonable splash would help Mech a lot while not breaking anything. | ||
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Genome852
United States979 Posts
On July 23 2014 13:23 StaraCroft wrote: Is this really what terrans want? This basically means if you don't pull your probes in time against an early mine drop you will loose to one mine. And you might still loose if they send in a second medivac into the retreat path of your probes (haven't seen anyone do this since the beta). This doesn't seem like it addresses any balance concerns and will just give random wins to terran if they happen to land a lucky widow mine shot. An early mine drop is not going to kill all your probes, even if you don't scout it and have horrible reaction times. Not only should you see the medivac come out of the fog of war, you have the unloading time and then slow burrow.... this is a large window of time unless you just are not paying attention. An oracle on the other hand is instant death if unprepared for, you can't just run two feet away and avoid worker losses entirely. Also, with the way AI targeting works on the mine, you can very accurately estimate which unit is targeted, for those talking about a situation where the mine targets the last probe escaping the mine radius and leading the missile to the whole group. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 24 2014 00:58 Genome852 wrote: The fact that you have the same number as me in your nickname is really disturbing :o | ||
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On July 24 2014 00:34 Faust852 wrote: That's called miro gestion and focus firing. Which the firing delay makes impractical. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On July 23 2014 03:35 blacksheepwall wrote: I also hate Widow Mines. They're not fun to use as a Terran player, they're infuriating to play against and I find them pretty boring to watch in pro matches since there's little micro involved once they're burrowed. Well put. Widows Mines were a bad addition in my opinion also, especially since they killed a really fun to watch, use, and play against unit: Siege Tanks. I am going to start laddering again and just do mass Widow Mines and Vikings versus Protoss. As a former masters Protoss player, it is more difficult than you think to combat, because you have but one option: Storm. | ||
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Dimagus
United States1004 Posts
2) Give the Raven a Point Defense Mine that fires Seeker Missiles with a cooldown similar to the existing Widow Mine. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 24 2014 01:31 BronzeKnee wrote: Well put. Widows Mines were a bad addition in my opinion also, especially since they killed a really fun to watch, use, and play against unit: Siege Tanks. I am going to start laddering again and just do mass Widow Mines and Vikings versus Protoss. As a former masters Protoss player, it is more difficult than you think to combat, because you have but one option: Storm. I have been doing this. But it is very hard to get off the ground because you just die to any allin if you are not also building tanks (which still doesn't make you blink or immortal allin proof). Which then cuts a lot into your economy. And for a macro game, good blink control just kills all the mines before they kill any stalkers. Just good stalker and immortal control kills it. Given, with the drilling claws you can combat immortals quite well, but at the end of the day you are completely relying on the Protoss not kiting properly against the mines when they come. So yes, it is hard to play against it when you don't have good control, but you have much more options than just storm, since well controlled stalkers should never die to mines. Also canons just shut down the mine aggression. It's one of those styles that often catches an opponent offguard because he doesn't know what to do, but once you hit players that know it, you just give them freewins. Imo, opening with mass hellion/tank is just better and only mixing in mines into the hellion harass. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
A lot of people mentioned the possibility of the TvZ metagame shifting towards roach + hydra. It would be really interesting to see. On the whole, though I really think the widow mine patch should have been a bit toned down, in the end I guess the patch is quite good (I realized that the WM buff in TvP boils down to +20(20) in 1.25-1.5 and +30(30) in 1.5-1.75. This is big but not something we won't be able to overcome : careful mine baiting with blink stalkers, hallucinations, charge against no drilling claws, and the simple fact that colossi do very well against mines and that those cut into your gas ; I don't see mine incorportation to the MMMVG being really beneficial). | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Oh yeah! | ||
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Genome852
United States979 Posts
On July 24 2014 01:53 [PkF] Wire wrote: A lot of people mentioned the possibility of the TvZ metagame shifting towards roach + hydra. It would be really interesting to see. On the whole, though I really think the widow mine patch should have been a bit toned down, in the end I guess the patch is quite good. Well, even with old mines, roach hydra was rarely seen. Though as a T, I love playing against that style since battles don't end in 2 seconds and tanks can be used. On July 24 2014 01:16 Faust852 wrote: The fact that you have the same number as me in your nickname is really disturbing :o lolol | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 24 2014 01:57 Genome852 wrote: Well, even with old mines, roach hydra was rarely seen. Though as a T, I love playing against that style since battles don't end in 2 seconds and tanks can be used. lolol WMs style against roach hydra is really terrible, you need to have tanks to hold the hugely powerful timing of the zergs. | ||
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r691175002
249 Posts
I know a lot of us will quickly dismiss this opinion on the basis that a win is a win, regardless of how it is achieved, but in reality there is a difference. A cheap win is much easier for a less skilled player to replicate, and this has led to the well accepted homogeneity of high level protoss players. A proxy oracle from any high skill Protoss player will execute roughly the same, whereas a parade push coming from Taeja will be incomparable to that from a foreign pro. Protoss winners are a haphazard list of numerous players, many of whom have been forgotten. Terran, on the other hand, has a much more concentrated set of champions. When a race has extremely powerful "low skill" options available (for another good example, see BL/Festor) we end up in a situation where not only are win rates and distributions getting skewed, but viewers can easily identify the disparity. A perfect example is the present time, where ZvT is arguably more skewed than PvT in terms of recent winrates and tournament representation. But since Zerg wins are generally mid/late game plays with substantial micro they are accepted. The reason why everyone hates Protoss is because of the prevalence of effective but low skill options. The vast majority of these builds are only viable because of the protection the MSC provides. Any proxy or hidden tech build can be rushed essentially unit-less which is just stupid. | ||
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FakeFX
2 Posts
WM would be very cool IMO with something like 50/200 cost, and a cooldown in planting mines (spider ones, or real mines that explodes on the spot after being activated: in that case allow it to shoot air as well, or at least with the splash part.) although it does not give 'super micro' ability, it gives terran a mechanic the like of creep spread. Part 1: it's fun (IMO creep spread is the best addition to macromechanics in SC2). Part 2: defender's advantage: Terran mechanics is the only one which is RTS standard like, in front of instant warp and instant remax, terran is facing some troubles, especially in late stage of the game. With a few Widow Mines creating constant map control and defensives options via minefields, it kind of balance things out easily. However, you need mechanics to do that, it does not add easy-turtle to the game as it needs babysitting. At least Terran may get a come back in winrates in ZvT, and Maru agressive style TvP may get some fresh air via mines addition, but in terms of 'fun' there is better things to do. | ||
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viperattack999
Canada32 Posts
On July 24 2014 00:12 MockHamill wrote: I would have preferred: 1) Tanks do more damage. 2) Factories become less expensive. 3) Immortals get less shields. 4) Tempest supply increased to 6. This change, while helping bio, does not do much for mech. I have basically stopped watching pro games because mech is not viable at pro level outside of TvT. As a mech player I learn nothing from watching 300+ APM Koreans running around with bio. I have seen it for years and it is simply boring. Blizzard prolly gonna wait till LOV to make major changes. I'm not convinced they have the balls to make the changes necessary to dramaticly improve the game, but we can always hope they'll grow a pair. The widow mine change may balance Terran, which is good, but it doesn't address the underlying issues Terran has had for a long time. Blizzard always talks a good game regarding game improvements but their actions don't measure up. Too timid when big changes are needed. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On July 23 2014 10:10 Karpfen wrote: I-I c-can show you b-but huh c-can't search replay f-for you. I s-swear. Pretty much sums it up. Low-Masters-at-best thinks he knows better than the pros. Ravens are a perfectly viable unit (including a couple in your army composition is quite powerful, especially when going mech), but the idea of massing Ravens isn't competitively reasonable. It's not some new concept; if it was actually consistently viable to mass them we'd see players taking their money to the bank already. I think the weirdest part was beg's p.s.; Terran has a bunch of AoE so wtf? | ||
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pmp10
3323 Posts
On July 24 2014 02:55 viperattack999 wrote: Blizzard prolly gonna wait till LOV to make major changes. I'm not convinced they have the balls to make the changes necessary to dramaticly improve the game, but we can always hope they'll grow a pair. The widow mine change may balance Terran, which is good, but it doesn't address the underlying issues Terran has had for a long time. Blizzard always talks a good game regarding game improvements but their actions don't measure up. Too timid when big changes are needed. We can't even be sure if LotV will have any multiplayer changes. For all we know it might end up as singleplayer-only campaign. And even if it dose change things - competitive scene may be dead by the time it's out. Sadly the time for fixing SC2 was about a year ago. | ||
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