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On July 23 2014 07:05 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 06:44 gneGne wrote:On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me. As much as I love Avilo for trying mech, he is definitely not a top tier Korean like you say, and I think all balance patches are directed towards problems at the top tier (mostly Koreans). Funnily, Bbyong has now done mech/raven three times in the ProLeague semifinals, but arguably on a specific map where he only won the first time surprising the opponent AND had a hidden expansion. My argument was that Avilo is able to consistently pull off Raven transitions against all kinds of players, which was meant to include top tier Koreans. To me personally, this is proof that Raven is severely underused.
I watch Avilo's stream. He doesn't generally play against the Koreans (he's honestly not at that level of skill). On the once-in-a-blue-moon occasion he does face one, he loses.
On July 23 2014 07:05 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 06:47 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On July 23 2014 06:37 beg wrote:On July 23 2014 06:31 iamcaustic wrote:On July 23 2014 06:26 beg wrote:
Secondly, why are so many people saying that Terran doesnt have T3 units? Jeee, can people finally start to build Ravens in TvZ?
This by the way gives an easy counter argument to everyone saying "when korean top tier pros never do a certain strategy, it means it's not viable, cause they must have tested it for sure". This obviously doesn't seem to be the case, cause Ravens are actually so strong that David Kim already openly spoke out about nerfing them.
The "doesn't have T3 units" argument takes into account the overall flow of a game, rather than the pure existence of late game units. Ravens are powerful (probably even OP) when massed, but getting to that critical mass of Ravens is generally not viable in professional play; your opponent will likely end up killing you before you can reach it. It's kind of like mass Void Rays in that regard. Judging from the few relatively high level Raven games we do actually see, I'd actually disagree and say you're wrong. Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky. Also, I've seen several of the highest level Korean pros in situations where they not only could have pulled off the transition, but needed Ravens badly (say to defend against Broodlords), but it's still a rare sight to see anyone use Ravens. This is an obvious flaw in Terran's current meta, if you ask me. Avilo doesn't play like normal people though, he turtles on way less bases than he should actually have at any given time and never actually attacks. And he doesn't play bio, either. With bio if you let up the pressure you will get crushed, even with the new mines, and ravens won't make up for it as they don't do shit vs mutas. And that isn't even mentioning their complete lack of viability in a bio army. Avilo does play "like normal people" who play mech and he can play Bio Raven in TvZ pretty well. What I'm trying to say here, is.... you seem to be making your arguments up out of thin air. You assume that Raven probably sucks with Bio, because no one does it (and theorycrafting maybe). Am I right? ps: i'm playing bio raven in every TvZ and it makes the zergs whine in a large number of cases
I can't wait to see your debut in WCS Challenger.
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On July 23 2014 07:00 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 06:49 Big J wrote:On July 23 2014 06:09 Faust852 wrote:On July 23 2014 06:05 Squat wrote:On July 23 2014 05:59 submarine wrote:On July 23 2014 05:54 andrewlt wrote:On July 23 2014 05:36 geokilla wrote:On July 23 2014 05:12 KatatoniK wrote:On July 23 2014 05:01 Squat wrote:On July 23 2014 04:22 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
PvP is a mirror... Both sides have the MSC. Protoss players have been using PvP as an excuse not to nerf stupid stuff for some time now. PO comes to mind. One might argue that if PvP is only fine because of borderline broken abilities on a hero unit that also fuck up the other MUs, there are some deeper issues, but w/e. So you want Protoss to die to stim pushes every game? After watching Ryung vs Squirtle I definitely don't think PO "fucks up" other match-ups. Protoss isn't the flawed race here, Terran is. I can't be the only one who finds it ridiculous that Terran get away with making the bulk of their army in cheap tier 1 units that then get a DPS + Speed boost at the press of one button + healing from other units. Don't get me wrong, there are aspects of Protoss that are incredibly stupid (I'm looking at you Time Warp) but a race that is balanced entirely around a 50 mineral early game unit that does pretty much everything + cheap mine units that can decimate most things very cost effectively. Surely I can't be the only person in the world who thinks that's incredibly silly. Terran is flawed? Now I've seen it all. They're all flawed. But yes, designing an entire race's roster to be nothing but support units for their first, cheap, low tech military unit is pretty silly. Why? Because it means the later tier units have to be weaker, which creates a situation where there is no incentive to tech up. What you don't understand is that terrans t2 and t3 units are marines. They scales with upgrades and support. making them stronger. SC2 is an asymetrical game and a don't see why terrans can't have an army based on t1 units. The game isn't imbalanced because of marines. It never was. Woa.... Marines never led to imbalances? 2010 + GomTvT? Blizzard just decided to not nerf marines back then, but to buff infestors, nerf tanks, buff queens, buff immortals (to hold marinebased 1-1-1s), nerf bunkers and raxes, stim... It's funny that you think the marine was never a problem when Terran had a ridiculously strong periode of domination with marine-based builds. Back then, they could have balanced differently. There was one solution to nerf all of the builds that caused imbalances, yet, they rather gimped everything else. Uh... Infestor buff was for bio in general, tank nerfs were because of the map sizes back in 2010 (note how tanks have been buffed in HotS with the advent of larger maps), queen buffs were to deal with early hellions, immortal buffs were to deal with the tanks in 1-1-1, not marines... stim was because of map sizes (again; does no one remember close position Metalopolis?). Bunkers and rax nerfs were specifically to target bunker rushes. Basically, you got bunker rushes right. That's about it regarding marines. Well done.
The point is, that it doesnt matter if you nerf the marine or buff the immortal for tanks to deal with 1-1-1. In either case, you nerf 1-1-1. In either case, you nerf a marinebased build (that usually included 2-3raxes).
Those mapsize argumentations are extreme hindsight... we played the game on those maps and not on others.
Quenn buff was to somewhat cite DK to make it easier for zerg to break the hellion contains to get into a better posiion against follow up aggression. Guess what that follow up aggression usually was? Marine+something. You know how else they could have made those pushes weaker? By making them weaker...
And so on and so on. Many of the things Terrans did in 2010-11 only were broken because they made it too hard to hold follow up bio play, against which you need(ed) very severe precautions.
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The point is, that it doesnt matter if you nerf the marine or buff the immortal for tanks to deal with 1-1-1. In either case, you nerf 1-1-1. In either case, you nerf a marinebased build (that usually included 2-3raxes).
I wrote about this in a post in the last page, but it does matter. A general Marine nerf would hurt both terran 1/1/1 as well as late game terran.
The latter wasn't deemed desireable back then.
Quenn buff was to somewhat cite DK to make it easier for zerg to break the hellion contains to get into a better posiion against follow up aggression
So I don't think this is a fair statement. TvZ early game was back then roughly as unfair as TvP early game is now. One race has all the options and the other race is forced to defend. As I remember it, you could do one of 3 builds as terran and it was quite difficult for zerg (with slower ovies) to guess which option the terran did:
- 4 hellions into doubleexpand while keeping the zerg on 2 bases. As zerg you could pressure this, but you had to prepare for it blindly since you couldn't scout and react.
- 2base Marine/medivac follow up
- A Maurauder/hellion allin/timing
A nerf to the Marine here wouldn't really change anything about the early game assymetry. It would still be terran with all the options. But in mid and later game, zerg would be in a better position (which wasn't really deemed desireable back then).
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On July 23 2014 07:05 beg wrote:
Avilo might not be Korean top tier, but if he can consistently pull off the Raven transition against pretty much every kind of opponent your argument seems shaky.
I like Avilo, and I think his style is pretty neat, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he can pull off the transition against anyone. If he could, we would be seeing him in WCS by now  Of the games I've seen him lose, it's people who harass him and keep him from getting to his ultimate Raven army. He seems to fall apart to harass from top players.
I don't know if that's more because his style is flawed or because his mechanics aren't solid enough to beat top players, but I would bet it's more of the former. If it actually worked, I can bet we would see Maru, or Taeja, or at least MKP whip it out from time to time.
The Raven is underused because they are only useful when in high numbers and there is no viable transition into mass Raven. It only works when you have an advantage, or when your opponent screws up.
I'd be curious to know what level you're playing at where bio+raven works, and if you are mid/high masters or better, I would like to see replays. Would be interesting.
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I hate mines as they are. They kill units twice their cost in 1 shot and now are being buffed again without any thoughts on nerfing another aspect of their damage.
They will still 1 shot a clump of probes but will take 2 shots to kill a clump of scvs.
They will still 1 shot stalkers, oracles etc but not banshees.
They will still do bonus aoe damage to shields and now have even more aoe.
I don't mind blizz making life easier on terran with the thor change or nerfing toss with timewarp nerf (so long as it stays 15+ seconds) but change mines so they do not decide games with 1 shot plz, it is not a good way to determine a better player.
I just got back into SC2 and playeyed 300+ games as Terran in the past 2 months to finish off my 1k wins with all races portrait but this just took the wind out of my sails.
I have always had huge respect for blizzard but if they are going to give in to all the terran QQ and ruin this amazing game, im gone. I will watch and hope SC2 recovers but for the 2nd time in 3 years I am fearful of giving up on SC2.
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This widow mine buff in TvP will be soooo annoying, and we can officially declare colossi-less openings dead. The rest is fine I guess, though with 10 seconds time warp + mandatory colossi openings, I can see scv pulls coming back with a vengeance -I'm pretty sure TvP is going to be T favored, even by little, in the next few months before P adapt.
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On July 23 2014 03:16 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 02:57 DinoMight wrote:
Awesome, a buff to the most annoying unit in the game.
Honestly I don't think it will change too much. Templar openings are dead anyway. Hopefully they leave the game alone long enough for people to adapt this time... I disagree, Dts are definitely the most annoying unit in the game
Voidrays, Oracles, MSC, Tempest are the most annoying in my opinion.
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On July 23 2014 07:27 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +The point is, that it doesnt matter if you nerf the marine or buff the immortal for tanks to deal with 1-1-1. In either case, you nerf 1-1-1. In either case, you nerf a marinebased build (that usually included 2-3raxes). I wrote about this in a post in the last page, but it does matter. A general Marine nerf would hurt both terran 1/1/1 as well as late game terran. The latter wasn't deemed desireable back then. Show nested quote +Quenn buff was to somewhat cite DK to make it easier for zerg to break the hellion contains to get into a better posiion against follow up aggression So I don't think this is a fair statement. TvZ early game was back then roughly as unfair as TvP early game is now. One race has all the options and the other race is forced to defend. As I remember it, you could do one of 3 builds as terran and it was quite difficult for zerg (with slower ovies) to guess which option the terran did: - 4 hellions into doubleexpand while keeping the zerg on 2 bases. As zerg you could pressure this, but you had to prepare for it blindly since you couldn't scout and react. - 2base Marine/medivac follow up - A Maurauder/hellion allin/timing A nerf to the Marine here wouldn't really change anything about the early game assymetry. It would still be terran with all the options. But in mid and later game, zerg would be in a better position (which wasn't really deemed desireable back then).
Would it? Wouldnt some of those options just not be strong options anymore? If the marine/tank, marine/medivac, marine/hellion all were weaker there, Terran would lose quite an amount of options.
In general, I think it is quite desireable to spread your combat power over various units in terms of gamedesign. Since marines were the core of many armies, it would have made sense to nerf them and in case of that being an overnerf to terran in certain situations (like lategame), buff the other units that are part of those Terran compositions. I never understood the Zergs that whined about mines back in the days. You're up against an opponent with 7-10barracks and 1-2factories. And you feel the 5-10 factory units are what is killing your 150supply army, seriously?
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On July 23 2014 06:24 KatatoniK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 05:57 Genome852 wrote:On July 23 2014 05:12 KatatoniK wrote:On July 23 2014 05:01 Squat wrote:On July 23 2014 04:22 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2014 04:20 StasisField wrote:
I still don't see the point in the Timewarp change. It is so vital in PvP engagements that this feels too drastic. PvP is a mirror... Both sides have the MSC. Protoss players have been using PvP as an excuse not to nerf stupid stuff for some time now. PO comes to mind. One might argue that if PvP is only fine because of borderline broken abilities on a hero unit that also fuck up the other MUs, there are some deeper issues, but w/e. So you want Protoss to die to stim pushes every game? After watching Ryung vs Squirtle I definitely don't think PO "fucks up" other match-ups. Protoss isn't the flawed race here, Terran is. I can't be the only one who finds it ridiculous that Terran get away with making the bulk of their army in cheap tier 1 units that then get a DPS + Speed boost at the press of one button + healing from other units. Don't get me wrong, there are aspects of Protoss that are incredibly stupid (I'm looking at you Time Warp) but a race that is balanced entirely around a 50 mineral early game unit that does pretty much everything + cheap mine units that can decimate most things very cost effectively. Surely I can't be the only person in the world who thinks that's incredibly silly. If you think "tier 1" units should not be usable or useful in late game situations, you should play another RTS game. Terran has a flawed late game due to units, but from a fundamental standpoint it is not flawed. It is the most "vanilla RTS style" race in SC2. People complaining about stim... I feel like it's 2010 again. I never said they shouldn't be usable, I said they shouldn't be the CORE unit of an entire army for the entire duration of a game for 50 mineral outlay. Protoss can't function on mostly Zealots once it gets to late game and Zerg can't focus on mostly Zerglings except for harassment. That's their function at late game, they harass economy as well as help support the beefier tech army. An early game unit should not be able to effectively maul through pretty much everything else thrown at it with the support of other units, they should go from useful early game defence/offence to a support role for the beefier tech units. What's the point in having more expensive higher tech units if they're just going to be overshadowed by the very first unit you can produce in the game that's super cheap?
Please play a TvP going mainly Marines and then report back on how you will dealt with blink Stalkers all in or a 2 base Colossi timing. What's that? You lost? Not surprised.
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Time to switch to Terran oh yeah.
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Would it? Wouldnt some of those options just not be strong options anymore? If the marine/tank, marine/medivac, marine/hellion all were weaker there, Terran would lose quite an amount of options.
Well, if you nerf the DPS of Marines by around 20%, bio play would probably be useless in mid/late game and Zerg could focus all their ressources on just defending a Marauder/hellion all in, so in that regard zerg would be better early game.
A smaller nerf of like 5% less DPS probably wouldn't be that signifciant for the Marine/Medivac follow up. As I remember it, something like a reactor Hellion into Tank/marine push wasn't very common. I think if you wanted to go for aggression you didn't go for Tanks.
When the Boxer-build became popular, you could argue that Blizzard had two choices;
1) Nerf blueflame
2) Nerf marines (or medivac healing)
They chose the fomer for two reasons.
1) Blue flame harass was already very dominant in all matchups and created unforgiveable situations.
2) A nerf to the Hellion didn't have a big impact on Mech's core cost efficiency. But a nerf to the Marine would be a much bigger hit to the efficiency of bio play in the later game which wasn't needed.
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On July 23 2014 08:00 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Would it? Wouldnt some of those options just not be strong options anymore? If the marine/tank, marine/medivac, marine/hellion all were weaker there, Terran would lose quite an amount of options. Hmm I mean if we you make like a big Marine nerf of 20% less DPS, bio play would probably be useless in mid/late game and Zerg could focus all their ressources on just defending a Marauder/hellion all in. A smaller nerf of like 5% less DPS probably wouldn't be that signifciant for the Marine/Medivac follow up. As I remember it, something like a reactor Hellion into Tank/marine push wasn't very common. I think if you wanted to go for aggression you didn't go for Tanks.
2base tank/marine wasnt that common anymore, but still being used i think.
20% is way too big i think
But I believe those 5-10% attackspeed changes are heavily underrated. They helped tanks a lot vs SHs and the hydralisk buff does work every ZvP. And they are not drastically changing builds, just their winpercentages. Even the mine nerf and upcoming buff kind of have "only" this statistical effect that doesnt really change how the unit and its timings work, but rather just make Terrans win/lose more combats that they'd try to take regardless of the actual strenght of the mine.
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By the way, I seem to remember TvZ being quite balanced when the mine patch came, with T slightly edging but nothing shocking since Z were adapting and had got the overlord speed buff. I really wonder what TvZ will look like with this + all the buffs, albeit little (tanks, hellbats) that T got during this time. Time will tell but I REALLY fear they're overdoing it.
And Time Warp nerf is actually huge. I expect P to still be very good at the highest levels, but P will definitely get considerably slowed down (I still think Z will get hurt the more by this patch since they already did ok in PvZ and will have to adapt in ZvT).
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Just when terran is starting to win more, DK messes up stuff again.
Templar openings are hardly used atm, with WM buff will be nearly non-existent. Really bad decision , making the game more 1 dimensional. Thor buff is ok, even still, why cant terran player micro it ? Can I have my Collossi auto attack armies instead of buildings ? lol
Kespa pros have been saying for a long time - LEAVE THE GAME ALONE FOR 6 MONTHS TO DEVELOP NEW STRATS.
unbelievable.
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Am I the crazy guy that thinks the only big difference this buff does is against zerglings and probes? Am I missing something? :\
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Honestly I can't complain about the widow mine revert vs zerg. I mean, zerg's were just a-moving mass banes and flying mutalisks around with basically 0 fear of mines, allowing them to take fights very very easily and mass that huge flock of muta. PvT is still an issue though, terrans basically have stronger all in now.
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On July 23 2014 07:58 covetousrat wrote:
Time to switch to Terran oh yeah.
Welcome to silver.
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From a zerg point of view, im dissapointed. I don't like widow mines and playing against them, so much worse than spider mines. Bad move blizzard.
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On July 23 2014 09:00 fmod wrote:
From a zerg point of view, im dissapointed. I don't like widow mines and playing against them, so much worse than spider mines. Bad move blizzard.
Scared of a some micro more?
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On July 23 2014 08:55 Twine wrote:Welcome to silver.
Sometimes I'd like to see what league are people that complains about these changes. Might be hilarious sometimes I think.
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EPT
