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Nope, you're the one spouting nonsense. You don't always need to get a "critical amount of Marines out" blindly, you only need them if you scout the Protoss going for two gas geysers. If they go for one gas geyser then they're doing a 1GFE and you don't need to worry about Oracles or Dark Templar. Your hyperbole is ridiculous.
Lol. You really need to start playing terran vs protoss once in a while in order to get a better understanding of the matchup. Protoss gets two early geysers as standard-build vs terran. I think this discussion ends here.
There is no pressure opening that rewards anything in zvt.
there is only the "do the 10 or earlier pool into playing from behind" build.
And people wouldn't mind Oracles, DT's or Stalkers if they encouraged micro. But they don't, they encourage to put good at gussing. I don't mind protoss having offensive options vs terran, but they are simply extremely lame and create really boring gameplay.
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The idea that Dark Templar and Oracles are effective if you don't micro them is laughable. Oracles need babysitting quite heavily to get the best out of them, especially if there are Marines or Turrets around, and Dark Templar are much more effective if you put in the time to focus dodging in and out of Scans until the Terran gets more permanent detection. The idea that Stalkers don't need microing is especially laughable since Blink Stalkers are one of the most microable units in the game.
Lol. They don't encourage terran micro. That's why we say there is nothing you can do vs Oracles if you have less than 6 mariens. That's why you need to start playing terran ASAP if you are to continue this discussion without everything laughintg at you because everything you say here clearly demonstrates you have no perspective on the matchup at all.
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On July 11 2014 22:58 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 22:48 TurboMaN wrote:On July 11 2014 22:34 ETisME wrote:
I don't know why you are all comparing the race.
Reaper can always do early pressure to zerg, I don't see zerg has any pressure build that can transition as comfortable and actually can do some sort of damage/poking A good zerg doesn't lose a single unit vs a standard reaper opening. Zerg has some very strong allins with roaches and ling/baneling which give a free win vs fast 3 CC builds. yes, only loses minerals from makings spores and forces early lings. I am not talking about all ins, if you like to compare reaper and oracle early pressure whatever. where is zerg's early pressure build in zvt that is not all in? Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 22:49 Hider wrote:On July 11 2014 22:34 ETisME wrote:
I don't know why you are all comparing the race.
Reaper can always do early pressure to zerg, I don't see zerg has any pressure build that can transition as comfortable and actually can do some sort of damage/poking DIfference betwen pressure openings that rewards micro and openings that kill you if you chose the wrong build. There is no pressure opening that rewards anything in zvt. there is only the "do the 10 or earlier pool into playing from behind" build.
It is not about Terran needing an aggressive option early on that is rewarding to transition out of. In fact, if we have none, we could still compete.
It is instead about forcing Protoss to spend a certain amount of resources before having access to powerful aggressive builds that do not set them back if very well defended.
Let's just imagine a world where Zerg could be in a position where a certain Terran 1-base play could kill the Zerg 3rd base 100% of the time. And every time you are going to scout our natural, Terran has a guaranteed kill on two overlords. Pretty harsh? Often, for Terran to take a peak at Protoss natural while the blink/oracle play is going on, that is the cost (a mule in lieu of supply).
When/how do you decide to take your third? Do you play on 2-hatch blindly? Do you lose two overlords and weaken your two hatch defense if the strong Terran 1-base all-in is coming? What if you choose not to scout to stay alive, and then when you finally feel safe to move out or lose overlords, you see both gases mining on the Terran natural behind a unbreakable defense to your 2nd hatch that is just now completing? Kind of late to get your 3rd isn't it?
Even if you don't get a new efficient Zerg all-in to fix this hypothetical problem, wouldn't you just be happy that Terran will have the added requirement of an Armory (hypothetical buff) to access this magic 1-base pressure that can most of the time deny the zerg 2nd hatch? Going forward when you scout that natural at your cost of 200+ minerals (two overlords, or say our scan) at least you could then know that because of this increased cost opening by Terran (making the armory to have the good aggressive build):
- either all you have to do as Zerg is defend the expensive Terran one-base play and you should win on two hatches; or
- If you see that Terran natural down, you would generally be safe to get your third base.
You see, as Terran, even if we spot one-base play and stay on one base, there is a good chance that our economy will be behind. Protoss natural will probably be mining gas before our own. And instead, if do confirm that a 2nd Nexus is down at the natural, we might still die to 2-base blink/oracle if we choose to land at the natural and defend two locations.
Was there not a time before queen buffs when Terran 1-base play would prevent Zerg from holding a 2nd hatch? It probably didn't feel good when Terran could be mining the natural before as the Zerg completed its 2nd hatch... Maybe made Zerg want to leave the game...
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On July 11 2014 23:42 Elendur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 22:58 ETisME wrote:On July 11 2014 22:48 TurboMaN wrote:On July 11 2014 22:34 ETisME wrote:
I don't know why you are all comparing the race.
Reaper can always do early pressure to zerg, I don't see zerg has any pressure build that can transition as comfortable and actually can do some sort of damage/poking A good zerg doesn't lose a single unit vs a standard reaper opening. Zerg has some very strong allins with roaches and ling/baneling which give a free win vs fast 3 CC builds. yes, only loses minerals from makings spores and forces early lings. I am not talking about all ins, if you like to compare reaper and oracle early pressure whatever. where is zerg's early pressure build in zvt that is not all in? On July 11 2014 22:49 Hider wrote:On July 11 2014 22:34 ETisME wrote:
I don't know why you are all comparing the race.
Reaper can always do early pressure to zerg, I don't see zerg has any pressure build that can transition as comfortable and actually can do some sort of damage/poking DIfference betwen pressure openings that rewards micro and openings that kill you if you chose the wrong build. There is no pressure opening that rewards anything in zvt. there is only the "do the 10 or earlier pool into playing from behind" build. It is not about Terran needing an aggressive option early on that is rewarding to transition out of. In fact, if we have none, we could still compete. It is instead about forcing Protoss to spend a certain amount of resources before having access to powerful aggressive builds that do not set them back if very well defended. Let's just say Zerg was in a position where a certain Terran 1-base play could kill Zerg 3rd base 100% of the time. And every time you are going to scout our natural, Terran has a guaranteed kill on two overlords. Pretty harsh? Often, for Terran to take a peak at Protoss natural while the blink/oracle play is going on, that is the cost (a mule in lieu of supply). When/how do you decide to take your third? Do you play on 2-hatch blindly? Do you lose two overlords and weaken your two hatch defense if the strong Terran 1-base all-in that killed you in the two prior games is coming? What if you choose not to scout to stay alive, and then when you finally feel safe to move out or lose overlords, you see both gases mining on the Terran natural behind a unbreakable defense to your 2nd hatch that just completed? Kind of late to get your 3rd? Even if you don't get a new efficient all-in as Zerg to fix this, wouldn't you just be happy that Terran will have the added requirement of an Armory to access this stronger 1-base pressure that can actually deny a zerg 2nd hatch? Going forward when you scout that natural at your cost of 200+ minerals (two overlords, or say our scan) you could know that: - either all I have to do is defend his expensive one-base play and I should win on my two hatches; or - If I do see that Terran natural down, I am usually safe to get my third base. You see, as Terran, even if we spot one-base play and stay on one base, there is a good chance that our economy will be behind. Protoss natural will probably be mining gas before our own. Also, if we can in fact confirm that a 2nd Nexus is down at the natural, we might still die to 2-base blink/oracle if we choose to land at the natural and defend two locations. Was there not a time before queen buffs when Terran 1-base play would prevent Zerg from holding a 2nd hatch? Probably didn't feel good when Terran could be mining the natural before as the Zerg completed its 2nd hatch... Maybe made Zerg want to leave the game...
A well defended oracle puts you behind. It's 300/300 resources early on that could have been observer+colossus tech much earlier.. Not even counting the delayed expansion. An oracle build must do damage or the terran is ahead and, as it is still true that you will get a natural, you won't see a third up to too late.
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I dream of seeing 20 replays of TvP where SatedSC2 (as Terran) opens up proxied Cloaked Banshees and proceeds to win a majority of his games as the Terran. Good luck saturating your natural before the Protoss has saturated their 3rd (assuming that you get to saturate anything).
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On July 11 2014 22:58 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 20:48 TheDwf wrote:On July 11 2014 20:17 SatedSC2 wrote:
Meanwhile, Terran can go for Widow Mine drops, Hellion drops, or Cloaked Banshees, which are again all strong options that are essentially countered by having units in position along with some sort of detection. Avoid talking about Cloak Banshees being "a strong option" in TvP if you want to conserve the slightest ounce of credibility. They're basically the same as Dark Templar except they fly. By that I mean that they're both just detection checks. Neither Dark Templar nor Banshees should do damage if you scout the opponent getting early gas, or you scout the opponent with a late expansion. The number of Terrans that I play who scout me with two gases and don't get any detection whatsoever, before proceeding to whine about Dark Templar being overpowered is disgusting...
I can't believe how deeply one has to bury his head in the sand not to acknowledge DTs and Cloak Banshees are drastically different in TvP. Do you even realize Cloak Banshees have been used in TvP a grand total of 3 times at the highest level in the span of one year, and you still call them "strong option"? Your way of arguing is absurd. You can prove literally anything with your method. "They're basically the same as Dark Templar except they fly." No kidding. I truely admire your self-control to state something like that while keeping a straight face. Look how much you can do with your "science":
Marines, Zealots and Zerglings are basically the same as they're cheap, easily reproducible mineral-only units often forming the bulk of the army of their respective races.
Marauders, Stalkers and Roaches are basically the same as they're the tier 1.5, secondary ground ranged unit from their respective races.
Marines and ultras are basically the same since they're living organisms benefiting from a certain amount of technology.
Bla, bla, bla.
All you do is abstract a few common points while completely dismissing the practical environement, the infrastructures, the dynamics of the match-up; in short everything that matters. So have fun proving that a circle and a square are "basically the same" because they're both geometric figures ruled by a few common laws.
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On July 11 2014 23:40 SatedSC2 wrote:I don't need to play Terran to know how Protoss build orders work, and to know that if Protoss gets two geysers you should be thinking about getting ready for harassment. If you choose not to, then you fucked up and you have nothing to whine about. Acting as if you blindly need six Marines all the time is a farce. You don't need them unless you see two gases and that isn't 99% of the time despite what you may think. I've not even spoken about counting Pylons to know whether or not something is proxied (which you should also do) because counting the geysers and the Probes within them is more than enough to gauge a decent response.
Have you considered that the upcoming four consecutive balance patches centered around the PvT matchup might weaken your assertion that Terrans are simply "fucking up" on a global scale for upwards of 9 months?
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On July 11 2014 23:58 eusoc wrote:A well defended oracle puts you behind. It's 300/300 resources early on that could have been observer+colossus tech much earlier.. Not even counting the delayed expansion. An oracle build must do damage or the terran is ahead and, as it is still true that you will get a natural, you won't see a third up to too late.
Debatable. A well defended oracle puts you behind in the sense that if you had a collosi instead of that oracle, you would be in a better position all else being equal.
On the other hand, the decision to build that oracle has also put the terran far behind. The terran is incapable of leaving his base for several minutes, has been forced to commit to a very uneconomical opening, and will be completely blind for a significant portion of the matchup. Its not like an oracle needs to kill 10+ workers to put you on even ground, I wouldn't be surprised if a "well defended" oracle opening still led into a 50% win rate just because defending the oracle requires an enormous opportunity cost from the terran.
Sure, a standard opening will leave the protoss in a better economic position than a proxy, but it will also leave the terran in a better economic position as well.
The mere existance of options changes a matchup, even if the options aren't particularly effective.
If you go back to the 1/1/1 days, winrates out of protoss were horrible despite the fact that the 1/1/1 build was almost never played (and had a fairly low win rate when actually used). The truth was that the option to open 1/1/1 forced horribly inefficient builds out of Protoss that put them massively behind.
The protoss had to play cautiously in all situations because the terran was completely unscoutable. There could be 0 units and 3cc up that ramp; or two banshees and three tanks. You just had no way of knowing, so you always had to prepare for the worst case.
You don't have to build a unit for its impact to be felt. The oracle dramatically changes every PvT regardless of whether it gets built.
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Why is the Widow Mine buff so big? I mean, it was
1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75
And now instead trying
1.5 / 1.75 / 2
They go directly to
1.5 / 2 / 2.5
WTF?!
About Protoss Nerf, meh, the problem is not Time Warp, it is Photon Over, and they keep it as always.
Now, the Thor change I don't get it, I mean, it is perfect, but I have a video where it shows that Thor was working like that time ago, I never realized when they changed it, so basically they are reverting an old change they already made.
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On July 12 2014 00:41 Sogetsu wrote:
Why is the Widow Mine buff so big? I mean, it was
1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75
And now instead trying
1.5 / 1.75 / 2
They go directly to
1.5 / 2 / 2.5
WTF?!
About Protoss Nerf, meh, the problem is not Time Warp, it is Photon Over, and they keep it as always.
Now, the Thor change I don't get it, I mean, it is perfect, but I have a video where it shows that Thor was working like that time ago, I never realized when they changed it, so basically they are reverting an old change they already made.
So other players will accept it more easily once he a week from now opts for a more moderate value.
If you go back to the 1/1/1 days, winrates out of protoss were horrible despite the fact that the 1/1/1 build was almost never played (and had a fairly low win rate when actually used). The truth was that the option to open 1/1/1 forced horribly inefficient builds out of Protoss that put them massively behind.
Let's be fair here. This is a debateable statement. Further, it wasn't very long after the 1/1/1 era that EMP was nerfed, which win/rates as well.
A "standard" 1GFE -> 3 Gate Robo does not get two gas geysers because you get the second geyser after expanding in order to get an early Nexus.
Not really a standard PvT build. Almost all protosses to go early robo with the occational Stargate or Twilight. Again, you should consider playing terran: It would give you a better understanding of builds protoss players actual use and the requirement to deal with them.
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Meh... a big widow mine buff and an almost irrelevent change to the thor in terms of unit efficiency (since the change have some downsides). They should have changed more the thor instead, specially with a protoss nerf. But i always felt that time warp lasted for an eternity, so that is a good change. Right now its more than a useful spell for an engagement, it can zone out the enemy army for quite long.
I think widow mines are already good, specially vs protoss. So yeah, lets make this already useful unit much stronger. The result is biomine vs protoss and zerg, reducing the diversity between matchups. All that practice time to try hellbats and suddenly widow mine is the way and hellbats are useless after the first push again.
At least this might improve balance, specially if they keep all changes with a smaller buff for mines.
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I agree with r691175002. To add to what was said, when the 1/1/1 used to force inefficient Protoss builds, there was no Photon Overcharge opening to fall back on.
This new 1/1/1 mine drop threat might be the opening that lets us have the same types of options as the Protoss player:
- ward off aggressive 1-base early gas builds that are scouted; and
- safely expand to the natural when the opponent has already revealed his own expanding.
The mine change could be a good way of accomplishing this because:
- it should help to defend oracle;
- it should help to ward off heavy blink aggression, and DTs;
- it could force protoss into detection allowing Terran to expand when it should be able to;
- it should not be game-ending for Protoss if Terran early gas is scouted; and
- it does not impact the Terran/Protoss end-game battles/compositions, and only really has a very significant impact on openings/natural expansion.
Obviously, if the Terran player is going CC-first or 1-rax gasless expand, the Protoss player isn't going to need to be rushing detection quite as fast at the expense of Protoss economy or more aggressive builds. It can match Terran greedy play because no early mine drop is coming.
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On July 12 2014 00:17 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 00:07 r691175002 wrote:On July 11 2014 23:40 SatedSC2 wrote:I don't need to play Terran to know how Protoss build orders work, and to know that if Protoss gets two geysers you should be thinking about getting ready for harassment. If you choose not to, then you fucked up and you have nothing to whine about. Acting as if you blindly need six Marines all the time is a farce. You don't need them unless you see two gases and that isn't 99% of the time despite what you may think. I've not even spoken about counting Pylons to know whether or not something is proxied (which you should also do) because counting the geysers and the Probes within them is more than enough to gauge a decent response. Have you considered that the upcoming four consecutive balance patches centered around the PvT matchup might weaken your assertion that Terrans are simply "fucking up" on a global scale for upwards of 9 months? Nope. I'm only talking about the early-game/inadequate responses to basic harassment in the post you quoted, and I don't believe that Terran is weak in the early-game. It's the late-game that Terran players need help with, and that's where I feel balance patches should be aimed. I in no way think that Terran are just "fucking up on a global scale". I just think that whining about having to build six Marines/Turrets when you scout harassment potential is a bit of a stretch, just like whining about needing an Observer would be.
I'm not whining about having to build six Marines and turrets if you go double gas early. Just that if you get an oracle in the sky or own the map with blink stalkers, and you will be in very healthy standing from my response to not die from that (rines/turrets), how about if you let me see what you are doing at home?
This way, we can stop after the six marines and two/three turret (which I will happily make), and when you begin to chrono-boost storm or double upgrades and get your two additional gas geisers - I'll also be getting my own extra refineries, selling bunkers, getting all SCV's back to mining, and dropping down my choice of armory/ghosts/cloak while I start to mule for my 3rd CC. Unfortunately, Terran cannot peak in and out with an overlord to see if Protoss geisers are going up. If we could, I think we would be in much better shape.
Absent the Terran race getting overlords to peek in and out at the natural/geisers every now and then, and absent the fog of war being lifted before the 10 min mark, perhaps it would make for more interesting games if the meta game supported T and P having some potential map presence, similar economies (naturals), and a slight advantage to the defender after the mine drop has been fended off (or after it just didn't come). I wonder how the game would look in the later stages if both sides could open up with a bit later 2nd CC's, but take them rather safely.
One of the reasons I enjoy TvZ so much (from either side), is that both sides get to scout, see, and react. There is this expected "back and forth" knock at the front door and decide game where good players will not die before the 10 min. mark and they will hope to often be in position to take a 3rd/4th base (depending on race). These 1-base proxy TvP map control builds are feeling less like chess or feeling out your opponent, and instead feeling much more like slot machines after you have made those turrets and 6 marines. Even TvT, ZvP can be played like this mostly to the players' choices. Nobody truly has to be blind until the natural is mining gas.
Note: we debate the Protoss also needing to expend 300/300 in resources to proxy the oracle. What about the cost for Terran to react if you fail to have your reaper locate the proxied buildings:
- Engineering bay
- 3/4 bunkers
- 2/3 turrets
- more than 6 marines produced (sorry, you ain't holding off aggressive blink with only 6 rines)
- scans instead of mules
- SCVs not mining and standing idle beside bunkers (else timewarp or blink on top of bunkers before repair)
- often, if you survive, the protoss taking four geisers earlier than you
Assuming no free SCV kills (oracle picking off builders or blink picking off repairers) in addition to all of this. The cost of all of this is researching blink or producing one oracle? It "seems" like a good deal even if you don't do what the SCV line might call "considerable damage".
This is getting to be a bit more expensive than 6 marines and two turrets. This is what happens once a few stalkers push out your reaper and all you know is "double gas proxy somewhere".
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^^ exactly.
Also, if you pull the workers too early, it will hurt your economy even more. Repairing cost money as well. Pull the workers too late and its gg. Soft contain = keep scv's at the bunker. Using CC energy for scan to see if the agresion will holds or use it for a mule because you are already behind in eco.... And even scouted properly some builds are still insane hard to hold, that would be fine, if that build requires insane good micro/macro. But that is often not the case. That makes the feeling of losing a game like that so frustrating.
Regarding the Thor adjustment, currently they are already shooting at overseers/overlords and not at muta's or lings. Will they adjust it so it will fire (finally) at muta's first or do i miss something?
Some viable early agression vs toss, some late game improvement and add a scouting tool and will have an awesome game again.
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Alright, let's "generalize" the problem.. This poll might not be as good, but will still show some "info" to us all..
TvP Poll
Poll: TvP Terran greatest problemMS Core (13) 54% I have to play all the time Bio (8) 33% Colossus Deathball (2) 8% Blink Stalker (1) 4% DT opener (0) 0% Immortal bust (0) 0% Warp Prism backdoor (0) 0% 24 total votes Your vote: TvP Terran greatest problem (Vote): Blink Stalker
(Vote): DT opener
(Vote): Immortal bust
(Vote): Warp Prism backdoor
(Vote): Colossus Deathball
(Vote): MS Core
(Vote): I have to play all the time Bio
TvZ Poll
Poll: Which do you consider to be Terran's greatest TvZ problem ?Mutalisk Backdoor (14) 70% Mass Baneling (4) 20% Mass Queen opener (1) 5% No problem (1) 5% Roach/Bane/Ling (0) 0% SwarmHost (0) 0% Ultralisk later on (0) 0% 20 total votes Your vote: Which do you consider to be Terran's greatest TvZ problem ? (Vote): Mass Queen opener
(Vote): Roach/Bane/Ling
(Vote): Mass Baneling
(Vote): Mutalisk Backdoor
(Vote): SwarmHost
(Vote): Ultralisk later on
(Vote): No problem
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I think currently it works like this for the Thor:
If a flying target and a ground target are in range, it chooses ground. If it is already attacking a target, it will keep attacking that target until it is dead before making a new target choice.
Since the GtA has 10range and the GtG only 7, the Thor will indeed often kill an air unit anyways before switching to a ground target.
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On July 11 2014 23:28 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 23:25 Hider wrote:Nope, you're the one spouting nonsense. You don't always need to get a "critical amount of Marines out" blindly, you only need them if you scout the Protoss going for two gas geysers. If they go for one gas geyser then they're doing a 1GFE and you don't need to worry about Oracles or Dark Templar. Your hyperbole is ridiculous. Lol. You really need to start playing terran vs protoss once in a while in order to learn how it is to play vs your race. Protoss gets two early geysers almost 99% of the time vs terran. I think this discussion ends here. Yep, it ends with you being wrong, which is much like how it started. "Protoss gets two early geysers almost 99% of the time vs terran" is a ridiculous statement and, in keeping with all your other reasoning, it really is laughable logic. Please remove your Terran blinkers.  EDIT: Even your edited quote, that Protoss gets them as "standard", is ridiculous. A "standard" 1GFE -> 3 Gate Robo does not get two gas geysers because you get the second geyser after expanding in order to get an early Nexus. The only reason to get two gas geysers before expanding if you're doing an optimised expansion build is if you're going for Dark Templar or Oracles before expanding or if you're going for really fast tech (usually Blink, rarely Oracles) after expanding. As for two geysers -> one-base all-in, that can be scouted by the lack of a Nexus and defended as stated in my previous post. You don't even need to know what all-in it is, just that it's an all-in. All of these arguments apply to Protoss in a similar manner, but with different units involved. Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 23:25 Hider wrote:
And people wouldn't mind Oracles, DT's or Stalkers if they encouraged micro. But they don't, they encourage to put good at gussing. I don't mind protoss having offensive options vs terran, but they are simply extremely lame and create really boring gameplay. The idea that Dark Templar and Oracles are effective if you don't micro them is laughable. Oracles need babysitting quite heavily to get the best out of them, especially if there are Marines or Turrets around, and Dark Templar are much more effective if you put in the time to focus dodging in and out of Scans until the Terran gets more permanent detection. The idea that Stalkers don't need microing is especially laughable since Blink Stalkers are one of the most microable units in the game. #TerranLogic
I agree with you that scouting 2 vs 1 gas is significant.
What you seem to forget is that Protoss can catch up from two gas opening by not making units and relying on photon overcharge while they dump all their chrono on nexus.
/edit
Leave your Terran hate before you enter balance threads please. You probably intended only to insult Hider but #Terranlogic is aggravating and not conducive to calm dialogue.
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EPT
