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On July 12 2014 04:50 SC2Toastie wrote:
TL should start handing out warnings to people who bait, troll, just don't read, ignore arguments and clearly change facts for own benefit.
Sated and Eusoc et al. are dragging the quality of the thread down majorly and consistently derail any conversation with their 'posts'.
Sated has had to say like 5 different times that he wasn't saying there's nothing wrong with terran, so... be careful what you wish for.
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On July 12 2014 11:13 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 04:50 SC2Toastie wrote:
TL should start handing out warnings to people who bait, troll, just don't read, ignore arguments and clearly change facts for own benefit.
Sated and Eusoc et al. are dragging the quality of the thread down majorly and consistently derail any conversation with their 'posts'.
Sated has had to say like 5 different times that he wasn't saying there's nothing wrong with terran, so... be careful what you wish for.
Toastie wasn't saying Sated was denying the problem entirely, he was remarking on the quality of the posts.
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United States7483 Posts
On July 12 2014 07:11 Socup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 06:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On July 12 2014 05:54 Whitewing wrote:On July 12 2014 05:20 Socup wrote:On July 12 2014 04:37 Elendur wrote:Johnbongham is right. And the reverse argument could also be made by the Terran, that if the Protoss is required to have made such a colossal effort to defend his mineral line(s) from two mines spotted on the minimap 6 seconds prior to detonating, it is only because the Terran has already invested a massive amount of resources to put the Medivac/mines into the sky with such early refinery timing... 350 gas for two dropped mines? (like the oracle 300/300 cost argument)  But it's not really the same because an unscouted and undefended oracle wins the game immediately. An unscouted WM drop can still be run away from, and since it doesn't shoot buildings or cloaked units, a cannon or observer will clean it up. You can run from an oracle, run towards your marines and have the marines come back. Unscouted oracles usually get maybe 4-5 kills. That's damage certainly, not game ending damage. If by unscouted you actually meant unscouted and terran has no anti-air at all and got blind countered in his build, then that's also the fault of the terran for doing a bad build. What if I didn't make Marines, I made Marauders? edit: so you're fine with Protoss getting two Cannons to shut down WM drops completely? That'll be a good build now. Nearly all protoss on Korean ladder seem to be making Pylon behind their minerals to build their WG or Cores anyway. Makes getting a cannon on reaction to WM drop even more intuitive.
Our builds have to incorporate an early forge to deal with them and we have to be ready to get cannons finished before widow mines show up, that's not really any different than you having to be ready to make turrets or have marines ready to go if an oracle comes. Sometimes you do a gamble build and it doesn't pay off, but any build which does not incorporate complete scouting and knows an oracle isn't coming (which is very hard to do for sure) or does not feature enough marines in position to deal with an oracle is a gamble.
You know, sort of the same way sometimes protoss players gamble and take a 3rd base with twilight council mass gateway units vs. terran without a robo and then die to cloak banshee (yeah that's rare but it happens).
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On July 11 2014 20:17 SatedSC2 wrote:
This Oracle/Mine discussion is ridiculous.
The Terran can open with Marines and have them positioned defensively to deal with an Oracle. They can open Factory and have a Widow Mine positioned to deal with an Oracle. Once the timing has passed for an Oracle to move in, those units can be re-positioned to deal with other threats. Turrets can be used as static defence/detection as well.
The Protoss can open with Stalkers and have them positioned defensively to deal with a Widow Mine. They can open Robo and have an Observer for detection to deal with a Widow Mine. They can open Stargate and use an Oracle for detection. Once the timing has passed for a Widow Mine drop or a proxy Widow Mine to move in, those units can be re-positioned to deal with other threats. Cannons can be used as static defence/detection as well.
Both races have options to defend both harassment possibilities. Neither race is forced to go down a particular tech path because a Terran can open with either Mines or Marines or Turrets for defence, whereas a Protoss can open Robo or Stargate or Twilight/Forge to defend. Neither race is guaranteed scouting information either: Protoss can deflect scouting information using the MSC+Stalker combination (or proxy their tech) whereas Terran can deflect scouting with a Marine or a Reaper (or proxy their tech).
This is basically a really silly slap-fight. Both races have early harassment options that can do a lot of damage if the opponent makes even the slightest mistake. Protoss can obviously go Dark Templar or Oracles, both of which are very strong, but both of these things are essentially countered by having Marines in position or having Turrets. Meanwhile, Terran can go for Widow Mine drops, Hellion drops, or Cloaked Banshees, which are again all strong options that are essentially countered by having units in position along with some sort of detection. If you don't know what your opponent is doing (but you do know they didn't FE) and you don't get detection/put units in position for harassment, you fucked up. This type of whining doesn't help the balance designers at all, because it is unjustified...
And what can ZERG do vs buffed WM drops ?
The poll I made earlier is a clear indicative of what Terrans want:
1 - vs Protoss they want to nerf the MSC (that poor thing can't stand up for a single patch alone, lol), which is kinda "considerate", but the problem is that it's a very needed unit in PvZ/PvP, and I doubt that there's still a "maneuverable space" for it to be nerfed furthermore
2 - vs Zerg however the problem are Mutalisks, which CAN be addressed upon
Now the problem is that buffing the WMines DO address that problem, but - the real question is - in what way, AND - at what cost ? - we'll end up seeing (or playing) shitty games again where 2WMs dropped in a mineral line solve the whole game right then & there vs BOTH Protoss and Zerg.. Don't get me wrong - I want to watch & see (or play) Terran win, BUT - certainly NOT in that way lol
What I'm surprised about however is that nearly no-one voted for the "Colossus deathball" being a big Terran problem option, and yet - in the pole I made a week ago - nearly 70% of people voted for late-game TvP was the real problem overall (well probably because of the discrepancy of the fact that in that previous poll I guess all could've voted, whilest this one is probably "asking only Terrans" more)..
Now if that same option (under the name of "Colossus deathball") was voted the most again - THAT might've been a very easy solvable solution overall - cause both "petitions" would be indicative on nearly the same thing - buffing the Viking anti-air missile vs both Shields and Light Armor.. Like - both would "Scream" buff the Vikings in any way possible
This way - buffing the WM - it's just no bueno IMO.. Let's not mistake - It DOES address the both most-voted problems vs Zerg, BUT - at what gameplay cost ?
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You will need to play it safer for that not to happen, so you don't get to play silly builds against terran.
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On July 12 2014 18:39 Godwrath wrote:
You will need to play it safer for that not to happen, so you don't get to play silly builds against terran.
Gee what can I say ? - thank you your Honour, no further questions (try better than that pls, cause that's NOT a solution)
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On July 12 2014 19:09 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 18:39 Godwrath wrote:
You will need to play it safer for that not to happen, so you don't get to play silly builds against terran. Gee what can I say ? - thank you your Honour, no further questions (try better than that pls, cause that's NOT a solution)
How is it not a solution ? Unpredictable play with a predictable race with barely decent scouting options is obviously a problem in TvP. Keeping protoss honest is not a your "but at what cost?" issue. There has to be ways for terran to put real pressure and fear for protoss on early game, where, paired with lategame, the true problems lies in the match up.
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On July 12 2014 19:16 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 19:09 VArsovskiSC wrote:On July 12 2014 18:39 Godwrath wrote:
You will need to play it safer for that not to happen, so you don't get to play silly builds against terran. Gee what can I say ? - thank you your Honour, no further questions (try better than that pls, cause that's NOT a solution) How is it not a solution ? Unpredictable play with a predictable race with barely decent scouting options is obviously a problem in TvP. Keeping protoss honest is not a your "but at what cost?" issue. There has to be ways for terran to put real pressure and fear for protoss on early game, where, paired with lategame, the true problems lies in the match up.
yes, god forbid Terran has a threat that Protoss actually has to consider when choosing their style of play and <shudder> Adapt !
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On July 12 2014 12:10 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 11:13 Nebuchad wrote:On July 12 2014 04:50 SC2Toastie wrote:
TL should start handing out warnings to people who bait, troll, just don't read, ignore arguments and clearly change facts for own benefit.
Sated and Eusoc et al. are dragging the quality of the thread down majorly and consistently derail any conversation with their 'posts'.
Sated has had to say like 5 different times that he wasn't saying there's nothing wrong with terran, so... be careful what you wish for. Toastie wasn't saying Sated was denying the problem entirely, he was remarking on the quality of the posts.
Thanks. Nice to see some people still have some reading comprehension and a little less of the 5- year old style of arguing!
User was warned for this post
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On July 12 2014 20:22 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 12:10 iamcaustic wrote:On July 12 2014 11:13 Nebuchad wrote:On July 12 2014 04:50 SC2Toastie wrote:
TL should start handing out warnings to people who bait, troll, just don't read, ignore arguments and clearly change facts for own benefit.
Sated and Eusoc et al. are dragging the quality of the thread down majorly and consistently derail any conversation with their 'posts'.
Sated has had to say like 5 different times that he wasn't saying there's nothing wrong with terran, so... be careful what you wish for. Toastie wasn't saying Sated was denying the problem entirely, he was remarking on the quality of the posts. Thanks. Nice to see some people still have some reading comprehension and a little less of the 5- year old style of arguing!
Hey, you're baiting. That gets you a warning in your own rules.
When someone like you talks about warning people for baiting, not reading things, ignoring arguments and clearly changing facts for their own benefit, it is offensive. I remember you attacking me like not a week ago for saying something you thought I said, except we were both saying the exact same thing and you didn't read well. That lowered the debate then.
And yet I never thought you should get warnings for what you said. Cause, you know, it's a forum, you get to say stuff. But what do I know, I'm probably a 5-year-old who can't read.
Sigh...
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This way - buffing the WM - it's just no bueno IMO.. Let's not mistake - It DOES address the both most-voted problems vs Zerg, BUT - at what gameplay cost ?
Cost? It's gonna create much better gameplay as zerg now needs to micro in order to engage terran which is gonna reward zers who are actually good relative to zergs who aren't.
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Italy12247 Posts
On July 12 2014 06:28 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 05:54 Whitewing wrote:On July 12 2014 05:20 Socup wrote:On July 12 2014 04:37 Elendur wrote:Johnbongham is right. And the reverse argument could also be made by the Terran, that if the Protoss is required to have made such a colossal effort to defend his mineral line(s) from two mines spotted on the minimap 6 seconds prior to detonating, it is only because the Terran has already invested a massive amount of resources to put the Medivac/mines into the sky with such early refinery timing... 350 gas for two dropped mines? (like the oracle 300/300 cost argument) But it's not really the same because an unscouted and undefended oracle wins the game immediately. An unscouted WM drop can still be run away from, and since it doesn't shoot buildings or cloaked units, a cannon or observer will clean it up. You can run from an oracle, run towards your marines and have the marines come back. Unscouted oracles usually get maybe 4-5 kills. That's damage certainly, not game ending damage. If by unscouted you actually meant unscouted and terran has no anti-air at all and got blind countered in his build, then that's also the fault of the terran for doing a bad build. What if I didn't make Marines, I made Marauders? edit: so you're fine with Protoss getting two Cannons to shut down WM drops completely? That'll be a good build now.
Seeing as no sensible Terran build has delayed stim, +1, combat shield, factory and starport tech for early mass marauders since before Oracles were even designed, if you make them instead of marines then you are doing a bad build anyway
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On July 12 2014 22:39 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 06:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On July 12 2014 05:54 Whitewing wrote:On July 12 2014 05:20 Socup wrote:On July 12 2014 04:37 Elendur wrote:Johnbongham is right. And the reverse argument could also be made by the Terran, that if the Protoss is required to have made such a colossal effort to defend his mineral line(s) from two mines spotted on the minimap 6 seconds prior to detonating, it is only because the Terran has already invested a massive amount of resources to put the Medivac/mines into the sky with such early refinery timing... 350 gas for two dropped mines? (like the oracle 300/300 cost argument) But it's not really the same because an unscouted and undefended oracle wins the game immediately. An unscouted WM drop can still be run away from, and since it doesn't shoot buildings or cloaked units, a cannon or observer will clean it up. You can run from an oracle, run towards your marines and have the marines come back. Unscouted oracles usually get maybe 4-5 kills. That's damage certainly, not game ending damage. If by unscouted you actually meant unscouted and terran has no anti-air at all and got blind countered in his build, then that's also the fault of the terran for doing a bad build. What if I didn't make Marines, I made Marauders? edit: so you're fine with Protoss getting two Cannons to shut down WM drops completely? That'll be a good build now. Seeing as no sensible Terran build has delayed stim, +1, combat shield, factory and starport tech for early mass marauders since before Oracles were even designed, if you make them instead of marines then you are doing a bad build anyway
But it was so fun going early marauders in WoL and poking/harassing the protoss. Some early micro war is so much fun. More of this, no?
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On July 13 2014 00:28 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 22:39 Teoita wrote:On July 12 2014 06:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On July 12 2014 05:54 Whitewing wrote:On July 12 2014 05:20 Socup wrote:On July 12 2014 04:37 Elendur wrote:Johnbongham is right. And the reverse argument could also be made by the Terran, that if the Protoss is required to have made such a colossal effort to defend his mineral line(s) from two mines spotted on the minimap 6 seconds prior to detonating, it is only because the Terran has already invested a massive amount of resources to put the Medivac/mines into the sky with such early refinery timing... 350 gas for two dropped mines? (like the oracle 300/300 cost argument) But it's not really the same because an unscouted and undefended oracle wins the game immediately. An unscouted WM drop can still be run away from, and since it doesn't shoot buildings or cloaked units, a cannon or observer will clean it up. You can run from an oracle, run towards your marines and have the marines come back. Unscouted oracles usually get maybe 4-5 kills. That's damage certainly, not game ending damage. If by unscouted you actually meant unscouted and terran has no anti-air at all and got blind countered in his build, then that's also the fault of the terran for doing a bad build. What if I didn't make Marines, I made Marauders? edit: so you're fine with Protoss getting two Cannons to shut down WM drops completely? That'll be a good build now. Seeing as no sensible Terran build has delayed stim, +1, combat shield, factory and starport tech for early mass marauders since before Oracles were even designed, if you make them instead of marines then you are doing a bad build anyway But it was so fun going early marauders in WoL and poking/harassing the protoss. Some early micro war is so much fun. More of this, no?
It'd be nice to see micro encouraged at all stages of the game. It makes the game exponentially more exciting. We should really band together and ask for a mechanics overhaul or even a slower game play speed to allow for more precision micro based play.
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On July 13 2014 00:31 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2014 00:28 Foxxan wrote:On July 12 2014 22:39 Teoita wrote:On July 12 2014 06:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On July 12 2014 05:54 Whitewing wrote:On July 12 2014 05:20 Socup wrote:On July 12 2014 04:37 Elendur wrote:Johnbongham is right. And the reverse argument could also be made by the Terran, that if the Protoss is required to have made such a colossal effort to defend his mineral line(s) from two mines spotted on the minimap 6 seconds prior to detonating, it is only because the Terran has already invested a massive amount of resources to put the Medivac/mines into the sky with such early refinery timing... 350 gas for two dropped mines? (like the oracle 300/300 cost argument) But it's not really the same because an unscouted and undefended oracle wins the game immediately. An unscouted WM drop can still be run away from, and since it doesn't shoot buildings or cloaked units, a cannon or observer will clean it up. You can run from an oracle, run towards your marines and have the marines come back. Unscouted oracles usually get maybe 4-5 kills. That's damage certainly, not game ending damage. If by unscouted you actually meant unscouted and terran has no anti-air at all and got blind countered in his build, then that's also the fault of the terran for doing a bad build. What if I didn't make Marines, I made Marauders? edit: so you're fine with Protoss getting two Cannons to shut down WM drops completely? That'll be a good build now. Seeing as no sensible Terran build has delayed stim, +1, combat shield, factory and starport tech for early mass marauders since before Oracles were even designed, if you make them instead of marines then you are doing a bad build anyway But it was so fun going early marauders in WoL and poking/harassing the protoss. Some early micro war is so much fun. More of this, no? It'd be nice to see micro encouraged at all stages of the game. It makes the game exponentially more exciting. We should really band together and ask for a mechanics overhaul or even a slower game play speed to allow for more precision micro based play.
Game speed doesn't change how you micro. It just makes the execution of the already too low amount of micro easier.
One area where they could slow down the pace is the projectile speed. It would actually be a ton more fun if abilities like EMP, Fungal and Abduct could be avoided through good micro (and then compensated in different ways).
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On July 13 2014 00:34 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2014 00:31 Novacute wrote:On July 13 2014 00:28 Foxxan wrote:On July 12 2014 22:39 Teoita wrote:On July 12 2014 06:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On July 12 2014 05:54 Whitewing wrote:On July 12 2014 05:20 Socup wrote:On July 12 2014 04:37 Elendur wrote:Johnbongham is right. And the reverse argument could also be made by the Terran, that if the Protoss is required to have made such a colossal effort to defend his mineral line(s) from two mines spotted on the minimap 6 seconds prior to detonating, it is only because the Terran has already invested a massive amount of resources to put the Medivac/mines into the sky with such early refinery timing... 350 gas for two dropped mines? (like the oracle 300/300 cost argument) But it's not really the same because an unscouted and undefended oracle wins the game immediately. An unscouted WM drop can still be run away from, and since it doesn't shoot buildings or cloaked units, a cannon or observer will clean it up. You can run from an oracle, run towards your marines and have the marines come back. Unscouted oracles usually get maybe 4-5 kills. That's damage certainly, not game ending damage. If by unscouted you actually meant unscouted and terran has no anti-air at all and got blind countered in his build, then that's also the fault of the terran for doing a bad build. What if I didn't make Marines, I made Marauders? edit: so you're fine with Protoss getting two Cannons to shut down WM drops completely? That'll be a good build now. Seeing as no sensible Terran build has delayed stim, +1, combat shield, factory and starport tech for early mass marauders since before Oracles were even designed, if you make them instead of marines then you are doing a bad build anyway But it was so fun going early marauders in WoL and poking/harassing the protoss. Some early micro war is so much fun. More of this, no? It'd be nice to see micro encouraged at all stages of the game. It makes the game exponentially more exciting. We should really band together and ask for a mechanics overhaul or even a slower game play speed to allow for more precision micro based play. Game speed doesn't change how you micro. It just makes the execution of the already too low amount of micro easier. One area where they could slow down the pace is the projectile speed. It would actually be a ton more fun if abilities like EMP, Fungal and Abduct could be avoided through good micro (and then compensated in different ways).
To be honest, it's difficult to get used to the slow pace of projectiles in Starbow. I think it would be different if I didn't have Starcraft II to compare it with, but sometimes it's sluggish enough to draw attention to itself.
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On July 12 2014 18:13 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 20:17 SatedSC2 wrote:
This Oracle/Mine discussion is ridiculous.
The Terran can open with Marines and have them positioned defensively to deal with an Oracle. They can open Factory and have a Widow Mine positioned to deal with an Oracle. Once the timing has passed for an Oracle to move in, those units can be re-positioned to deal with other threats. Turrets can be used as static defence/detection as well.
The Protoss can open with Stalkers and have them positioned defensively to deal with a Widow Mine. They can open Robo and have an Observer for detection to deal with a Widow Mine. They can open Stargate and use an Oracle for detection. Once the timing has passed for a Widow Mine drop or a proxy Widow Mine to move in, those units can be re-positioned to deal with other threats. Cannons can be used as static defence/detection as well.
Both races have options to defend both harassment possibilities. Neither race is forced to go down a particular tech path because a Terran can open with either Mines or Marines or Turrets for defence, whereas a Protoss can open Robo or Stargate or Twilight/Forge to defend. Neither race is guaranteed scouting information either: Protoss can deflect scouting information using the MSC+Stalker combination (or proxy their tech) whereas Terran can deflect scouting with a Marine or a Reaper (or proxy their tech).
This is basically a really silly slap-fight. Both races have early harassment options that can do a lot of damage if the opponent makes even the slightest mistake. Protoss can obviously go Dark Templar or Oracles, both of which are very strong, but both of these things are essentially countered by having Marines in position or having Turrets. Meanwhile, Terran can go for Widow Mine drops, Hellion drops, or Cloaked Banshees, which are again all strong options that are essentially countered by having units in position along with some sort of detection. If you don't know what your opponent is doing (but you do know they didn't FE) and you don't get detection/put units in position for harassment, you fucked up. This type of whining doesn't help the balance designers at all, because it is unjustified... And what can ZERG do vs buffed WM drops ? The poll I made earlier is a clear indicative of what Terrans want: 1 - vs Protoss they want to nerf the MSC (that poor thing can't stand up for a single patch alone, lol), which is kinda "considerate", but the problem is that it's a very needed unit in PvZ/PvP, and I doubt that there's still a "maneuverable space" for it to be nerfed furthermore 2 - vs Zerg however the problem are Mutalisks, which CAN be addressed upon Now the problem is that buffing the WMines DO address that problem, but - the real question is - in what way, AND - at what cost ? - we'll end up seeing (or playing) shitty games again where 2WMs dropped in a mineral line solve the whole game right then & there vs BOTH Protoss and Zerg.. Don't get me wrong - I want to watch & see (or play) Terran win, BUT - certainly NOT in that way lol What I'm surprised about however is that nearly no-one voted for the "Colossus deathball" being a big Terran problem option, and yet - in the pole I made a week ago - nearly 70% of people voted for late-game TvP was the real problem overall (well probably because of the discrepancy of the fact that in that previous poll I guess all could've voted, whilest this one is probably "asking only Terrans" more).. Now if that same option (under the name of "Colossus deathball") was voted the most again - THAT might've been a very easy solvable solution overall - cause both "petitions" would be indicative on nearly the same thing - buffing the Viking anti-air missile vs both Shields and Light Armor.. Like - both would "Scream" buff the Vikings in any way possible This way - buffing the WM - it's just no bueno IMO.. Let's not mistake - It DOES address the both most-voted problems vs Zerg, BUT - at what gameplay cost ?
No, i think the difference in the pool is different because the question is different. Colossus deathball is not the same as colossus, high templar and archon deathball. As for the MSC core votes, people think that terran is not as weak in the early game as they are in late game TvP, but the MSC is effective in all stages of the game.
I think this widow mine buff will just reduce the diversity in TvZ and TvP, so its a bad change. People might be in a hurry to take any buff, but terran was buffed recently and other changes (in my opinion) should take the proper time, since its no emergency.
For TvP protoss is just going to get robo or forge earlier, or both, so stargate and twilight concil openers are going to be worse. For TvZ zerg will have to engage carefully and micro is going to be harder, but terran is relying on luck since you cannot manually target 10 mines while splitting. Its a big buff vs mass banes but a small buff vs mutas on your backdoor, since the radius was already good vs clumped mutas (and they always are when harassing mineral lines), while the damage is unchanged.
Lastly, i think the other changes are good, since they help with balance with no relevant harmful effects.
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On July 13 2014 01:24 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2014 00:34 Hider wrote:On July 13 2014 00:31 Novacute wrote:On July 13 2014 00:28 Foxxan wrote:On July 12 2014 22:39 Teoita wrote:On July 12 2014 06:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On July 12 2014 05:54 Whitewing wrote:On July 12 2014 05:20 Socup wrote:On July 12 2014 04:37 Elendur wrote:Johnbongham is right. And the reverse argument could also be made by the Terran, that if the Protoss is required to have made such a colossal effort to defend his mineral line(s) from two mines spotted on the minimap 6 seconds prior to detonating, it is only because the Terran has already invested a massive amount of resources to put the Medivac/mines into the sky with such early refinery timing... 350 gas for two dropped mines? (like the oracle 300/300 cost argument) But it's not really the same because an unscouted and undefended oracle wins the game immediately. An unscouted WM drop can still be run away from, and since it doesn't shoot buildings or cloaked units, a cannon or observer will clean it up. You can run from an oracle, run towards your marines and have the marines come back. Unscouted oracles usually get maybe 4-5 kills. That's damage certainly, not game ending damage. If by unscouted you actually meant unscouted and terran has no anti-air at all and got blind countered in his build, then that's also the fault of the terran for doing a bad build. What if I didn't make Marines, I made Marauders? edit: so you're fine with Protoss getting two Cannons to shut down WM drops completely? That'll be a good build now. Seeing as no sensible Terran build has delayed stim, +1, combat shield, factory and starport tech for early mass marauders since before Oracles were even designed, if you make them instead of marines then you are doing a bad build anyway But it was so fun going early marauders in WoL and poking/harassing the protoss. Some early micro war is so much fun. More of this, no? It'd be nice to see micro encouraged at all stages of the game. It makes the game exponentially more exciting. We should really band together and ask for a mechanics overhaul or even a slower game play speed to allow for more precision micro based play. Game speed doesn't change how you micro. It just makes the execution of the already too low amount of micro easier. One area where they could slow down the pace is the projectile speed. It would actually be a ton more fun if abilities like EMP, Fungal and Abduct could be avoided through good micro (and then compensated in different ways). To be honest, it's difficult to get used to the slow pace of projectiles in Starbow. I think it would be different if I didn't have Starcraft II to compare it with, but sometimes it's sluggish enough to draw attention to itself.
Hmm it's only really EMP which is slow. All other projectiles are fast. Ensnare at one point was slow as well, but IMO the issue here was that it just sucked in every other way as well.
Abilities that just hits instantly and doesn't create any dynamic after they have been casted are IMO absolutely pointless for the game besides functioning as APM-spam for the spellcaster race.
Wouldn't it be cool if there was a skill-element to dodging? What if you could watch a game and people would go crazy over a specific players ability to split his units against Fungal Growth, EMP or Abduct? (rather than just presplitting before the battle).
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On July 13 2014 04:13 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2014 01:24 Grumbels wrote:On July 13 2014 00:34 Hider wrote:On July 13 2014 00:31 Novacute wrote:On July 13 2014 00:28 Foxxan wrote:On July 12 2014 22:39 Teoita wrote:On July 12 2014 06:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On July 12 2014 05:54 Whitewing wrote:On July 12 2014 05:20 Socup wrote:On July 12 2014 04:37 Elendur wrote:Johnbongham is right. And the reverse argument could also be made by the Terran, that if the Protoss is required to have made such a colossal effort to defend his mineral line(s) from two mines spotted on the minimap 6 seconds prior to detonating, it is only because the Terran has already invested a massive amount of resources to put the Medivac/mines into the sky with such early refinery timing... 350 gas for two dropped mines? (like the oracle 300/300 cost argument) But it's not really the same because an unscouted and undefended oracle wins the game immediately. An unscouted WM drop can still be run away from, and since it doesn't shoot buildings or cloaked units, a cannon or observer will clean it up. You can run from an oracle, run towards your marines and have the marines come back. Unscouted oracles usually get maybe 4-5 kills. That's damage certainly, not game ending damage. If by unscouted you actually meant unscouted and terran has no anti-air at all and got blind countered in his build, then that's also the fault of the terran for doing a bad build. What if I didn't make Marines, I made Marauders? edit: so you're fine with Protoss getting two Cannons to shut down WM drops completely? That'll be a good build now. Seeing as no sensible Terran build has delayed stim, +1, combat shield, factory and starport tech for early mass marauders since before Oracles were even designed, if you make them instead of marines then you are doing a bad build anyway But it was so fun going early marauders in WoL and poking/harassing the protoss. Some early micro war is so much fun. More of this, no? It'd be nice to see micro encouraged at all stages of the game. It makes the game exponentially more exciting. We should really band together and ask for a mechanics overhaul or even a slower game play speed to allow for more precision micro based play. Game speed doesn't change how you micro. It just makes the execution of the already too low amount of micro easier. One area where they could slow down the pace is the projectile speed. It would actually be a ton more fun if abilities like EMP, Fungal and Abduct could be avoided through good micro (and then compensated in different ways). To be honest, it's difficult to get used to the slow pace of projectiles in Starbow. I think it would be different if I didn't have Starcraft II to compare it with, but sometimes it's sluggish enough to draw attention to itself. Hmm it's only really EMP which is slow. All other projectiles are fast. Ensnare at one point was slow as well, but IMO the issue here was that it just sucked in every other way as well.
I might be wrong, I took a break from Starbow&SC2 for several months and Starbow probably changed a lot in between. I was specifically thinking of viking missiles being slow, but I noticed those had been changed recently, and maybe other projectiles have been adjusted too.
I watched the recent Xiphias casts and constantly had to remind myself that it was played on the highest game speed, it's just that the units and animations all feel a bit slower. I don't see it as a dark side to Starbow, but I'm simply more used to SC2. And I also suspect that there are some projectiles you can't slow down without breaking suspension of disbelief. It's one thing for self-propelled guided bombs to be slow, and quite another for cannon shots to move at snail-pace after all.
It reminds me of WC3 actually, a game that always felt a little bit slow to me when watching (I would watch replays for enjoyment on 2x, and actually YouTube casters sometimes do the same). However, you never notice this slowness while playing because there is enough to do in the game. Similarly, I never played Brood War on the fastest game speeds because I played the game mostly offline and the high speed felt oppressive and too mechanically taxing to me. There was enough to do in the game after all, yet I suspect that if you would watch my replays on the same speed I played them that they would be quite uneventful (and I don't have horrible mechanics or anything). Starcraft II is different though.
On July 13 2014 04:13 Hider wrote:
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Abilities that just hits instantly and doesn't create any dynamic after they have been casted are IMO absolutely pointless for the game besides functioning as APM-spam for the spellcaster race.
Wouldn't it be cool if there was a skill-element to dodging? What if you could watch a game and people would go crazy over a specific players ability to split his units against Fungal Growth, EMP or Abduct? (rather than just presplitting before the battle).
I don't think you can make fungal growth too slow because it's a standard projectile and therefore it needs a certain speed to be believable. EMP is similar. I know the Starbow team has done well with what little resources they have, but I don't think they can be expected to create new spell effects that live up to Blizzard's standards. So I don't mind it too much, but I never thought all the spell effects looked absolutely amazing.
Also, I never liked Flamestrike in Warcraft 3, it punishes newer players and is useless at a high level. Psionic storm is superior as it does guaranteed damage but some of it can still be mitigated by skilled maneuvering.
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I don't think you can make fungal growth too slow because it's a standard projectile and therefore it needs a certain speed to be believable
Not necessarily do projectiles need to be slow, lets say after u cast it on the ground the effect comes into play after 1 or 2 sec.
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EPT
