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On July 11 2014 18:32 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 18:24 eusoc wrote:On July 11 2014 18:07 Big J wrote:On July 11 2014 17:45 eusoc wrote:On July 11 2014 17:19 SC2Toastie wrote:
You should start reading the post you reply to.
An Oracle flying in is nothing like a mine flying in.
Oracle: got no marines? Gg
Mine: you're too slow + unprepped? Gg
Now guess what is well designed and what is a stupid bo limitation? You are right, having to build robo for a possible 6:00 mine drop that could destroy a whole mineral line is a stupid bo limitation you don't have to. You can build an oracle, sac 1 worker per mine and then clean them up. Or you can build a forge and a canon per mineral line. Yep, get a forge and a cannon per mineral line at 6:00 without the option to scout if I play a standard macro game. That means putting cannons blind. The only way you can scout a terran base before 6:00 is going 1 base oracle which is easily scouted. No more MSC scout thx to vision nerf. The fastest allucination will arrive at terran base after 6:00 And oracle isn't a reliable form of detection as observer is, and then having to still build a robo because ht openings are dead makes the oracle a 300/300 observer as you can't use it to harrass anymore. So it's fine that Terran can't scout with Reapers because of stupid Blink All-in, and Terran has to open 6 Marines or risk death against Oracle, but a Protoss having to build two Cannons behind his impenetrable wall of MSC to be 100% safe is inhuman cruelty. I gotcha.
And on top of this, pure.Wasted, am I correct to think that you only need to blindly put the Canon down by 6:00 min. if you scouted a gas first opening with your probe?
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On July 11 2014 20:17 SatedSC2 wrote:
Meanwhile, Terran can go for Widow Mine drops, Hellion drops, or Cloaked Banshees, which are again all strong options that are essentially countered by having units in position along with some sort of detection.
Avoid talking about Cloak Banshees being "a strong option" in TvP if you want to conserve the slightest ounce of credibility.
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On July 11 2014 20:17 SatedSC2 wrote:
This Oracle/Mine discussion is ridiculous.
The Terran can open with Marines and have them positioned defensively to deal with an Oracle. They can open Factory and have a Widow Mine positioned to deal with an Oracle. Once the timing has passed for an Oracle to move in, those units can be re-positioned to deal with other threats. Turrets can be used as static defence/detection as well.
The Protoss can open with Stalkers and have them positioned defensively to deal with a Widow Mine. They can open Robo and have an Observer for detection to deal with a Widow Mine. They can open Stargate and use an Oracle for detection. Once the timing has passed for a Widow Mine drop or a proxy Widow Mine to move in, those units can be re-positioned to deal with other threats. Cannons can be used as static defence/detection as well.
Both races have options to defend both harassment possibilities. Neither race is forced to go down a particular tech path because a Terran can open with either Mines or Marines or Turrets for defence, whereas a Protoss can open Robo or Stargate or Twilight to defend. Neither race is guaranteed scouting information either: Protoss can deflect scouting information using the MSC+Stalker combination (or proxy their tech) whereas Terran can deflect scouting with a Marine or a Reaper (or proxy their tech).
This is basically a really silly slap-fight. Both races have early harassment options that can do a lot of damage if the opponent makes even the slightest mistake. Protoss can obviously go Dark Templar or Oracles, both of which are very strong, but both of these things are essentially countered by having Marines in position or having Turrets. Meanwhile, Terran can go for Widow Mine drops, Hellion drops, or Cloaked Banshees, which are again all strong options that are essentially countered by having units in position along with some sort of detection. If you don't know what your opponent is doing (but you do know they didn't FE) and you don't get detection/put units in position for harassment, you fucked up. This type of whining doesn't help the balance designers at all, because it is unjustified...
That's silly.
Mines are Factory which means that to have defense against the fastest oracle cheese, you have to have blindly built factory+mine anyway. If you build factory on the off chance of an oracle build, and it's fake-out all in instead, you're dead.
If you build factory for a WM and it turns out to be DT proxy instead, you're probably dead. They can break your wall (if you made one in TvP), and walk inside while you're trying to micro your 3 second burrow mine to deal with it, and that mine dies before finishing burrowing.
Below is it 6? marines, oracle can wipe them out.
Anyone who's complaining about how much it costs for fast oracle seems to be forgetting that producing anti-oracle stuff weakens transition to mid-game for T, and you don't have to go oracle anyway. It's a choice.
As for defending a Widow Mine cheese, dropship widow mine is easily killed by just go attack the terran's damn base. If you're scared of the drop, MSC charge your nexus and focus down the dropship or the mine. If you've expanded, just micro your workers to the other base while you get detection up. The T is on one base, and has no significant army. Wait for observer and then sac a probe on the WM and clean it up with a stalker and split probes back to proper mining.
Oracle doesn't give you 3 seconds to make a good decision. It comes fast and ends the game if you didn't see it coming and have enough stuff. WM is completely opposite, since not only will you see it run or dropship in, but you get another 3 seconds before it does anything. Even if it gets one shot off, it might killl 5 workers or one.
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yep tell me how building 6 marines is such a huge investment.
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With the forst reaper scout you know if there are proxy on the map and easily find it.. and there is no way to deny that as you have no unit when the reaper gets into the base. Once scouted the 1 base play all you have to do is to stay on 1 base(lifting your cc from the natural eventually), build a turret in the mineral line and you are safe from DT or oracle or blink. And you can still scout the expansion. with the reaper.
To contain the terran you need to spend the 300/300 for the oracle, not much different from getting extra gates and sentries. The benefit is that you get some harrass, but sill you'll have to build gates before even thinking of taking a 3rd
And Colossi/blink double forge is so 2011, really it is. I am not talking about the specific build order the the main idea behind it that hasn't changed. Sure there may be a mine drop or an oracle harrass in the early-mid game but everyting else is just the same.
With the first reaper scout we know that there is unknown gas play coming. We don't necessarily "find the proxy". Same as if you scout gas first from Terran and don't see the follow-up buildings/production. If Terran has to abandon the natural, give up map control and begin preparations for whatever all-in the Protoss might have thrown down already - why should it be so big of a deal if Protoss must blindly build forge/canons, or produce robo/observer upon scouting a more aggressive Terran opening without a quick CC being thrown down?
If terran is going CC-first or 1-rax gasless fast expand - are you still going to throw down the early forge or robo just to stay safe? Because I wouldn't be as worried about your proxies or any Oracle/Blink if I see you drop an early Nexus with my SCV/reaper scout. I'd just think - I should be safe with a greedier build as well, just like Protoss could.
Is it just me or have Protoss been spoon fed free greedier builds for too long, while Terran are almost 100% completely shut out of theirs? 
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On July 11 2014 20:53 eusoc wrote:
yep tell me how building 6 marines is such a huge investment.
Because you'd have to get them blind.
Imagine if you had to get 3 zealots EVERY PvT you played in order to not die at the five minute mark.
No fast Stalker, no you have to get 3 zealots every single PvT.
It restricts what you can do in the early game unless you want to risk a coinflip.
Mines require a Factory and Turrets require an Engineering Bay, both of which further restrict what you can do in the early game.
Any TvP build has to take a response to Proxy Oracle into account or risk dying to it.
It's not that 6 marines is a huge investment, it's that you HAVE to get them unless you get a Factory + Mine or Engineering Bay + Turret.
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or produce robo/observer upon scouting a more aggressive Terran opening without a quick CC being thrown down?
Which is basically what they would be doing anyway...
Is it just me or have Protoss been spoon fed free greedier builds for too long, while Terran are almost 100% completely shut out of theirs?
I think there is an "accustomed to" argument. Some protoss players can be somewhat objective, especially if they have experiences from a different time, while others too easily get accustomed to the easiness of playing protoss early game and being able to do w/e you want to and then expecting that to be the "norm".
Someone like Sated clearly has very little experince being on the other sides of the spectrum having played 0 terran games on his account.
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votes are pretty useless
hard to say but ever vote is like this
if it nerfs p its always GOOD and if it buffs terran its always GOOD ... its just seems like 80% are terrans here ...
aweful changes btw
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On July 11 2014 20:53 eusoc wrote:
yep tell me how building 6 marines is such a huge investment.
It's not, and neither is placing down a forge/canon or robo/observer, if your opponent is not going to be mining the natural any time soon.
The problem at the moment for Terran is that we can't use those six marines and a few extra units to saturate our natural or have any map control. In many cases, we are forced to assume that impending doom is coming, while the Protoss is enjoying a natural or planning a 2-base tech push. Usually, we have no map control (short of maybe coin flipping a reaper to see the aggression), and no hope of doing serious damage even if we were to guess that the Protoss has expanded at the natural in lieu or any heavy pressure. However, if we chose to follow the same builds that the Protoss can rely upon and go into heavy gas openings while taking our natural behind them, the Protoss would normally just fall back on their economy/tech or just outright kill us in certain cases.
If we could, as Terran, upon scouting Protoss double gas go the 1/1/1 route with our own double gas and secure our natural - we would be in much better shape. However, we can't do that. In fact, we sometimes cannot even survive if the 2nd CC is place inside of our main base. Furthermore, if Protoss currently scouts a Terran going for double gas early on with no 2nd CC, are Protoss usually afraid of dying? Is Protoss left turtling in fear in the main base at the 8-9 min. mark with cloaked banshees/tanks hovering around the perimeter, while the Terran is unknowingly beginning to saturate the natural geisers? No. If Terran is doing that, he's probably dead in 2 min.
That seems out of place to me given that Protoss can throw down two early gas, choose from a variety of openings based off of those two gases, and almost always keep map control and expand safely behind it (switching to greed/teching up if the game is not auto-win because Terran didn't follow "the right build" in response). Terran just can't play like this, at all. In fact, I think that any Terran build that allows for knowledge of whether you can take your natural at reasonable times are considered very bad play (banshee, hellions, 3+ reapers, etc.). Protoss would normally know if (and perhaps as importantly, when) its natural can be safely taken with fairly simple and standard play (and often even with very aggressive/strong play).
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On July 11 2014 20:59 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 20:53 eusoc wrote:
yep tell me how building 6 marines is such a huge investment. Because you'd have to get them blind. Imagine if you had to get 3 zealots EVERY PvT you played in order to not die at the five minute mark. No fast Stalker, no you have to get 3 zealots every single PvT. It restricts what you can do in the early game unless you want to risk a coinflip. Mines require a Factory and Turrets require an Engineering Bay, both of which further restrict what you can do in the early game. Any TvP build has to take a response to Proxy Oracle into account or risk dying to it. It's not that 6 marines is a huge investment, it's that you HAVE to get them unless you get a Factory + Mine or Engineering Bay + Turret.
Oh, well, 1stalker + 1 MSC it's 225/150 adn you have to get it every single PvT no matter what. If you delay that you cannot deny any scouting nor get out of your base.
If I could make 3 zealot instead I would be really happy to do so.
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Thank u for correcting
+ Show Spoiler +/*The Thor changes are terrible. The attack priority for should only be higher for Mutas or BL, but not for air in gerneral. Like *imagine 4 Roaches and a Overlord vs 1 Thor. normally the Thor wins easy. Now the Terran has to micro to avoid hitting the *overlord, wich is stupid and in the end maybe a buff in 1 example but a disadvantage in many other.
*Or for example when u attack a Base (where overlords are way more common)... Your Thor will never attack any buildings by its *own or any Ground units, which is a unnecessary increase in micro needed ...
*/ I forgot :D
better give the reaper a token he can throw wich is invisible for 10 sec and can be destroyed or fades after 30sec so they can be used to scout later in the game or cover more area .. some extra utility than jumping in and out (they are killing nearly nothing, because most pro players can handle them)
Give Sigetanks the ability to shoot on targets wich are only seen by a SensorTower, but also in thier range (which will never get used anyway :D)
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Northern Ireland24921 Posts
I just don't particularly like Oracles annihilating mineral lines or doing very little. Such an all or nothing unit sometimes.
It baffles me that they stuck that death cannon on it. Its got other abilities that were great for fleshing out Stargate tech and should have been kept in a support caster role IMO.
They are among the worst examples of 'harass' units, no real finesse to differentiate a skilled player from one who isn't. Of all the units in the Protoss arsenal, the one most people don't complain about and is a good finesse unit is the Phoenix, an APM sink that requires careful control and outside of rare instances doesn't end games in the early game.
This doesn't really pertain to balance, just frustrates me. Take a functional unit that actually makes you feel skilful when you use it and add a unit that has game-ending potential and can be proxied to overlap with that role.
On the actual balance front, Protoss need to get more expensive tech back. The DT shrine is cheaper than in WoL, despite the MSC enabling you to cut 600 or so gas (sorry DwF if this is an incorrect stat) from units and enabled harder teching. Similarly Protoss has cheaper ups than they used to, despite all their ground units sharing them and the ability to chrono them hardcore.
If you're not going to tweak PO, then you have to add the risk to things like fast DTs or proxy oracles via resource costs IMO. It's the combo of these tricky builds with relative safety in choosing them which is problematic to me. In WoL if a DT rush gets shut down hard, you died to counter pressure.
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On July 11 2014 21:29 Levi wrote:
The Thor changes are terrible. The attack priority for should only be higher for Mutas or BL, but not for air in gerneral. Like imagine 4 Roaches and a Overlord vs 1 Thor. normally the Thor wins easy. Now the Terran has to micro to avoid hitting the overlord, wich is stupid and in the end maybe a buff in 1 example but a disadvantage in many other.
Or for example when u attack a Base (where overlords are way more common)... Your Thor will never attack any buildings by its own or any Ground units, which is a unnecessary increase in micro needed ...
On July 09 2014 17:35 19Meavis93 wrote:
how many times do I need to explain that units don't attack other units that are not considered harmfull to them when units that are harmfull are nearby, if a wave of roaches/overlords moves to a thor the thor will prioritize firing at roaches as they can attack him while overlords can not, just like voidrays will always prioritize shooting at marines over banshees or vikings over marauders.
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On July 11 2014 21:28 eusoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 20:59 Thezzy wrote:On July 11 2014 20:53 eusoc wrote:
yep tell me how building 6 marines is such a huge investment. Because you'd have to get them blind. Imagine if you had to get 3 zealots EVERY PvT you played in order to not die at the five minute mark. No fast Stalker, no you have to get 3 zealots every single PvT. It restricts what you can do in the early game unless you want to risk a coinflip. Mines require a Factory and Turrets require an Engineering Bay, both of which further restrict what you can do in the early game. Any TvP build has to take a response to Proxy Oracle into account or risk dying to it. It's not that 6 marines is a huge investment, it's that you HAVE to get them unless you get a Factory + Mine or Engineering Bay + Turret. Oh, well, 1stalker + 1 MSC it's 225/150 adn you have to get it every single PvT no matter what. If you delay that you cannot deny any scouting nor get out of your base. If I could make 3 zealot instead I would be really happy to do so.
With 3 zealots on a single mining base with no map control, and only a coin flip of a chance if you begin to mine your natural, you would be happy? I doubt that.
Six marines are not going to secure a main and a natural from Oracle destruction or the Blink play. Perhaps a MSC+Stalker will allow you to expand to the natural safely as Protoss? But, tell me... what combination of two gas opening units from Terran will guarantee us a safe natural and some form of map presence?
Also, those Six Marines and Turrets are not going to become one of the most powerful caster units in the game in 5 minutes, defensively and offensively. Maybe if six marines, a tank, and a medivac could seriously threathen a Protoss natural/main by casting spells, or maybe if they could somehow merge into a Planetary Fortress for a while at the natural chokepoint...
Maybe I exaggerate in my example. I would never expect such buffs or gameplay design. However, I do not see any scenario where the Terran can spend similar resources to the Protoss (after taking two gas even to open up aggressive and defensive options) and then secure its natural expansion safely. The blind six marines/turrets are not going to assist in pressuring, taking a natural, and in many cases even in allowing the Terran to feel like he should be able to survive up to the point of having to take a third. We're talking equal skill levels/league here.
Behind that Stalker + MSC, you have quite a few options and the ability to move in an collect the information necessary to decide on your best course of action, without risking a significant part of your forces. Terran doesn't have this luxury, even after throwing down two early gas before the 2nd CC.
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I don't know why you are all comparing the race.
Reaper can always do early pressure to zerg, I don't see zerg has any pressure build that can transition as comfortable and actually can do some sort of damage/poking
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On July 11 2014 22:34 ETisME wrote:
I don't know why you are all comparing the race.
Reaper can always do early pressure to zerg, I don't see zerg has any pressure build that can transition as comfortable and actually can do some sort of damage/poking
Zerg can almost always take a Natural. Zerg always knows if Terran has a Natural. Zerg can always take a third if Terran has a Natural.
It is not merely a question of one race having all of the offensive options, but it is also a question of being in a position to know the time when you should begin to play more economically rather than simply trying to avoid death. Does Terran always know if/when Protoss has a natural down? If Protoss does have the natural down, is Terran always safe in immediately take its own natural and beginning to mine? What if Zerg had to sacrifice (as in lose) two overlords into the Protoss Natural every game to confirm if they have expanded, and if they haven't and are still doing a one-base blink all-in Zerg would also feel like they have to sac two overlords again in 2 min just to avoid failing at that stage of the game/transition?
You see, even if Terran had no aggressive options whatsoever, but both races could see/feel the entire map and know exactly when to transition our tech/economy to "follow" the opponent - we would be in a much better position already even if Protoss was the only player with the early aggressive options in TvP. It wouldn't matter so much if our only available build was a defensive reaper expand that allows for adaptation. We could win/lose based on our own mistakes or slight differences in skill level/execution.
I'd argue that if there was no fog of war at all for both races in TvP, things would be so much better right now in the early game. Can you really say that the same logic applies to TvZ? It doesn't, because the races know how/when transition is needed to keep up in economy even when under pressure, all skill being equal and with good execution.
I am not sure that the point you make applies in TvP.
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On July 11 2014 22:34 ETisME wrote:
I don't know why you are all comparing the race.
Reaper can always do early pressure to zerg, I don't see zerg has any pressure build that can transition as comfortable and actually can do some sort of damage/poking
A good zerg doesn't lose a single unit vs a standard reaper opening.
Zerg has some very strong allins with roaches and ling/baneling which give a free win vs fast 3 CC builds.
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On July 11 2014 22:34 ETisME wrote:
I don't know why you are all comparing the race.
Reaper can always do early pressure to zerg, I don't see zerg has any pressure build that can transition as comfortable and actually can do some sort of damage/poking
DIfference betwen pressure openings that rewards micro and openings that kill you if you chose the wrong build.
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On July 11 2014 22:48 TurboMaN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 22:34 ETisME wrote:
I don't know why you are all comparing the race.
Reaper can always do early pressure to zerg, I don't see zerg has any pressure build that can transition as comfortable and actually can do some sort of damage/poking A good zerg doesn't lose a single unit vs a standard reaper opening. Zerg has some very strong allins with roaches and ling/baneling which give a free win vs fast 3 CC builds.
yes, only loses minerals from makings spores and forces early lings.
I am not talking about all ins, if you like to compare reaper and oracle early pressure whatever.
where is zerg's early pressure build in zvt that is not all in?
On July 11 2014 22:49 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 22:34 ETisME wrote:
I don't know why you are all comparing the race.
Reaper can always do early pressure to zerg, I don't see zerg has any pressure build that can transition as comfortable and actually can do some sort of damage/poking DIfference betwen pressure openings that rewards micro and openings that kill you if you chose the wrong build.
There is no pressure opening that rewards anything in zvt.
there is only the "do the 10 or earlier pool into playing from behind" build.
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EPT
