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United States7483 Posts
On July 11 2014 06:55 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 06:49 linuxguru1 wrote:The difference being that a buffed widow mine drop would deal terrible terrible damage to Protoss worker lines and just terrible damage to Terran and Zerg worker lines due to bonus damage vs shields. ... whereas stormdrops just outright kill any worker line if left unnoticed for 4 seconds  ... and, maybe even more importantly, the timing at which it's going to hit.
Storm drops are an example of harass done well in the game. They aren't usable until the mid-game at the earliest, and usually not until later on in the mid-game as you need storms at home to not die. That means they usually aren't being used before 3 bases for the opponent. That means one successful storm drop doesn't end the game, it just hurts and helps the player who used it get ahead. Replacing most of a mineral line when you're on 3 bases hurts but isn't, in itself, usually enough to end the game. Storm drops risk important and expensive assets: you need at least 2 high templar in a warp prism to do anything effective with storm drops, and that's 300 gas. Add in the fact that the timing means the opponent is capable of dealing with it with proper scouting and response rather than it happening early when it might be a blind counter, and you get a really well done harass tool that fits good game design.
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United States7483 Posts
On July 11 2014 07:18 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +WMine - same - were designed to "control" bane/ling numbers, but ppl used it for drops in mineral lines and end the game immediately or sth so it got nerfs.. That's absolutely not why they nerfed it. From my perspective, they realize they fucked up with the nerf and now they are looking to correct their mistake.
Mines got nerfed because they wanted to see variety in TvZ: they wanted bio/tank to be viable (and gave tanks a small attack speed buff), and wanted to see mines used with tanks as well. The problem is that they underestimated the power of the mutalisk buff they doled out at the start of HOTS, so tanks are just non-viable, and the mine nerf wound up making nothing viable rather than promoting different styles.
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On July 11 2014 00:52 linuxguru1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 04:49 Ctone23 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:47 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:42 Ctone23 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:36 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:02 SNSeigifried wrote:
can someone add these values to the post Splash radius changed from 1.25/1.5/1.75 to 1.5/2/2.5
To put that into perspective: this would make widow mines have a larger radius than storm/EMP/fungal. Storm and EMP have 1.5 radius and fungal has 2 (according to liquipedia). Actually it would provide the same damage 40+40 (shields) as psionic storm does(80 over 4 seconds), with the same radius of 1.5, if the new patch goes through. Sounds fair to me. Oh, and storm is instantly cast  The furthest range of 2.5 would do a whopping...wait for it... 10+10(shield) i.e. not that material.. The "casting time" of a widow mine shot is not even near 4 seconds though. I'm sorry if I come across as a nitpicker. I just fear for the lives of my dear probes Oh no worries. I was just trying to draw damage comparison. You're right.... RIP probes lol.. 2 radius doing 40 damage is going to obliterate probes. I like it EDIT: Hell, if you have 2 nicely placed widow mines where the 2.5 radius intersected... say bye bye to all the probes. Exactly my point...
Sounds about right. A Terran who is unprepared for an oracle and goes afk for 4.5 seconds (the amount of time it takes a mine to burrow and detonate) will lose all their harvesters, too. It's really annoying. 
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On July 11 2014 07:26 eightym wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 00:52 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:49 Ctone23 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:47 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:42 Ctone23 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:36 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:02 SNSeigifried wrote:
can someone add these values to the post Splash radius changed from 1.25/1.5/1.75 to 1.5/2/2.5
To put that into perspective: this would make widow mines have a larger radius than storm/EMP/fungal. Storm and EMP have 1.5 radius and fungal has 2 (according to liquipedia). Actually it would provide the same damage 40+40 (shields) as psionic storm does(80 over 4 seconds), with the same radius of 1.5, if the new patch goes through. Sounds fair to me. Oh, and storm is instantly cast The furthest range of 2.5 would do a whopping...wait for it... 10+10(shield) i.e. not that material.. The "casting time" of a widow mine shot is not even near 4 seconds though. I'm sorry if I come across as a nitpicker. I just fear for the lives of my dear probes Oh no worries. I was just trying to draw damage comparison. You're right.... RIP probes lol.. 2 radius doing 40 damage is going to obliterate probes. I like it EDIT: Hell, if you have 2 nicely placed widow mines where the 2.5 radius intersected... say bye bye to all the probes. Exactly my point... Sounds about right. A Terran who is unprepared for an oracle and goes afk for 4.5 seconds (the amount of time it takes a mine to burrow and detonate) will lose all their harvesters, too. It's really annoying.
That's so not true - the first difference is that Oracles kill worker one by one as opposed to 10 in one blob.. The second difference is that the "game-adjutant" will warn you after you lose few workers.. What's the point in the game-adjutant warning you to see all your base mining gone (except maybe few) ??, so not the same thing, NOT BY A DIAMETER, lol..
I know that the better/higher-skilled players are better at watching the map, but even those can insta-lose games to a hit or two from the "buffed" WM..
AND - the third real difference is - Oracle is energy based unit so you know when/what to expect if you carefully observe it's energy though
AND EVEN 4th - you won't even KNOW if there was a mine burrowed unless you actually SEE that rocket coming out of the ground and doing damage.. Instead you might think you got "harassed" while trying to fight, or do other things lol
Like - that last one is maybe the most important - I personally think mines would be much more fair if they got invulnerable for 5-10 seconds (or probably only vulnerable to spells like fungal or storm) after a launch but actually being visible even if burrowed so not having to have the "hawk-eye" for something that might "lurk" around, AND Terran could safely "retract" that thing back into his army provided that it's not too far away though
OK, not to "argue" about it, nor whine/redesign, but I "posted" that "invulnerable but visible" "fix" - so you'd know what's the mine's biggest problem IMO.. It doesn't "raise" 2 fingers and say "it was me" after doing a huge damage, so you'll not know if it was there if you were like 2 seconds late to "check on everything" or so.. So - THAT might be the greatest problem with the mine TBH - they're basically a "self-revivable DT" in a manner of speaking - that you have to "see it on work" in order to clean it up before it fires again though
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On July 11 2014 07:21 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 07:18 Hider wrote:WMine - same - were designed to "control" bane/ling numbers, but ppl used it for drops in mineral lines and end the game immediately or sth so it got nerfs.. That's absolutely not why they nerfed it. From my perspective, they realize they fucked up with the nerf and now they are looking to correct their mistake. Mines got nerfed because they wanted to see variety in TvZ: they wanted bio/tank to be viable (and gave tanks a small attack speed buff), and wanted to see mines used with tanks as well. The problem is that they underestimated the power of the mutalisk buff they doled out at the start of HOTS, so tanks are just non-viable, and the mine nerf wound up making nothing viable rather than promoting different styles.
I actually think their mistakes were even larger than that. If you read David Kim's explanation, he didn't just want bio/tank to be viable. No, it should be bio + mines + tanks vs zerg. Like it was clear that he didn't wanna make Mines useless since they only worked vs Zerg along with bio in the first place.
But, in that proces the blizzard balance team completely missed the fact that Mines and tanks have pretty poor synergy. It would simply be impossible to create realistic scenarios where terrans would mix in mines and Tanks. Instead, it was always gonna be one or the other one along with bio play.
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On July 11 2014 07:20 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 06:55 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 11 2014 06:49 linuxguru1 wrote:The difference being that a buffed widow mine drop would deal terrible terrible damage to Protoss worker lines and just terrible damage to Terran and Zerg worker lines due to bonus damage vs shields. ... whereas stormdrops just outright kill any worker line if left unnoticed for 4 seconds ... and, maybe even more importantly, the timing at which it's going to hit. Storm drops are an example of harass done well in the game. They aren't usable until the mid-game at the earliest, and usually not until later on in the mid-game as you need storms at home to not die. That means they usually aren't being used before 3 bases for the opponent. That means one successful storm drop doesn't end the game, it just hurts and helps the player who used it get ahead. Replacing most of a mineral line when you're on 3 bases hurts but isn't, in itself, usually enough to end the game. Storm drops risk important and expensive assets: you need at least 2 high templar in a warp prism to do anything effective with storm drops, and that's 300 gas. Add in the fact that the timing means the opponent is capable of dealing with it with proper scouting and response rather than it happening early when it might be a blind counter, and you get a really well done harass tool that fits good game design.
Except this isn't what we see. The problem is that there's no counter to them which would kill them. If the templars unload then you're taking damage as running away generally makes it worse. And if you scout it, the WP is too fast to kill unless the P isn't paying attention. So P can risk very little for large amounts of gain. There's also very little micro involved, you fly in or turn back. If it's the former, you drop, press t, and fly away. The only time P is risking their WP is when they are not paying attention to them and they fly into static D or into a clump of units.
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They keep making Protoss more boring every time they buff the widow mine and force Protoss to go colossus. They should nerf the colossus instead since it's a boring unit anyway, or buff counters to colossus like the viking.
And most players get their units out of the time warp by 15 seconds anyway, so that's a really small nerf.
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On July 11 2014 07:32 VArsovskiSC wrote:
That's so not true - the first difference is that Oracles kill worker one by one as opposed to 10 in one blob.. The second difference is that the "game-adjutant" will warn you after you lose few workers.. What's the point in the game-adjutant warning you to see all your base mining gone (except maybe few) ??, so not the same thing, NOT BY A DIAMETER, lol..
Asymmetrical Balance
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Idk why people think the thor change is bad. its actually really helpful to Terran, because in battle you want to prioritize splitting and stutter stepping your bio its a real pain to have to manually target all your Thors as well. Thors attacking zerglings are useless but thors splashing mutas are alot more helpful. this is somewhat a quality of life change but it will help terran in tvz engagements. as a terran player i would appreciate such a change. Pros though it probably does not matter all that much. This is just a small change that would help Terran who are not on that top level were players have godlike apm. its nice to see them doing something to make Terran a tad more forgiving for us scrubs in diamond. Also they are listening to player feedback I cant recall were but some one suggested this in the Tl thread were these changes were being discussed.
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On July 11 2014 07:43 Cheren wrote:
They keep making Protoss more boring every time they buff the widow mine and force Protoss to go colossus. They should nerf the colossus instead since it's a boring unit anyway, or buff counters to colossus like the viking.
And most players get their units out of the time warp by 15 seconds anyway, so that's a really small nerf.
I would like to see the Collosus damage get change from 15 to 10 + 5 light
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On July 11 2014 12:21 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 07:43 Cheren wrote:
They keep making Protoss more boring every time they buff the widow mine and force Protoss to go colossus. They should nerf the colossus instead since it's a boring unit anyway, or buff counters to colossus like the viking.
And most players get their units out of the time warp by 15 seconds anyway, so that's a really small nerf. I would like to see the Collosus damage get change from 15 to 10 + 5 light
That fucks up PvZ in such a large way though. Without Colossi, roaches are probably out of control. Yes: Immortals are still great against them. But Immortals are weak against zerglings and only break even with hydralisks.
Not to mention that a nerf against static defense, queens, infestors, ultras is pretty much uncalled for and could cause severe problems with the ling/ultra/queen/infestor style, that is very powerful on bigger maps.
And I think Colossi are in a great spot in PvP currently. They are not the only strong option for a ground army - Archon/Immortal based play seems to hold its own very well against lower Colossi numbers - and mass Colossus can be countered so hard by Tempests, that it is a very questionable compositional choice.
Neither do I think this is justified in PvT. Colossi don't shred Marauders that hard anyways, I think that's rather on zealots eating so many shots, that it sometimes seems like Colossi are a powerhouse vs marauders.
And more generally speaking, I don't think Protoss needs a nerf in the midgame. They often have a hard time as is to grab a third base and defend it or surviving an SCV pull.
It's really on Terran's own lategame transitions in my opinion. Like, (the few times) when I play bio in TvP and get into the midgame everything feels fine. You harass, maybe even snipe a nexus. You build up your viking count vs Colossi and take your bases... and then you just start hand wringing because your options seem to come down to suiciding your army on buildings (massive dropping/nexus sniping) and suiciding your economy on army (SCV pulling). There is no third option that says, he has Colossi and Templar on the battlefield, so build something that doesn't get torn apart by them.
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On July 11 2014 12:21 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 07:43 Cheren wrote:
They keep making Protoss more boring every time they buff the widow mine and force Protoss to go colossus. They should nerf the colossus instead since it's a boring unit anyway, or buff counters to colossus like the viking.
And most players get their units out of the time warp by 15 seconds anyway, so that's a really small nerf. I would like to see the Collosus damage get change from 15 to 10 + 5 light
That doesn't help anything. Protoss have 50 other units that shut down mech, Colo is too strong against bio. (Or bio is too weak, take your pick) Just 10 would be much better.
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WM buff kinda sucks but it is the only way T can survive like 70 banelings, I mean literally the only way.
Buffing tanks wont help at all,
in the mid game tanks are hard countered by Mutas,
in the late game hard countered by Vipers and Mutas
and if you happen to find yourself unsieged ...
At the current design Tanks are just useless vs Z and thats it.
I think it was Cure vs Terror or Departure at IEM qualifiers just a few days ago, when Cure had like 8 tanks spread in front of Z's 3rd base, and then 3 blinding clouds and suddenly T does not have any splash damage -> GG.
So once again no matter how stupid WM buff is, it is the only way to fix TvZ at least until LOTV.
Alternatively add sth to Thors so that they can tank more banelings damage I dont know.
This change sucks even more in PvT, as every T will now open with mines, and still dies in late game if P survives.
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On July 11 2014 12:21 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 07:43 Cheren wrote:
They keep making Protoss more boring every time they buff the widow mine and force Protoss to go colossus. They should nerf the colossus instead since it's a boring unit anyway, or buff counters to colossus like the viking.
And most players get their units out of the time warp by 15 seconds anyway, so that's a really small nerf. I would like to see the Collosus damage get change from 15 to 10 + 5 light
Probably the other way round - more like 10 + 10 vs armored, but the real problem would be LINGS though
But NO - Blizz would never touch the Marine, Hydralisk, nor Collo.. They're the "glass cannon" units and those affect game performance by huge margains and the gameplay the most.. They once tried to propose a "change" to Hydralisks that everyone was like w.t.f. lol
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Russian Federation473 Posts
i would like to see how a different change to the widow mine splash damage could work - probably return to the initial flat damage of 40 plus maybe 35 vs shields in a 1.5 or 1.75 radius?
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On July 11 2014 07:32 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 07:26 eightym wrote:On July 11 2014 00:52 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:49 Ctone23 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:47 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:42 Ctone23 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:36 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:02 SNSeigifried wrote:
can someone add these values to the post Splash radius changed from 1.25/1.5/1.75 to 1.5/2/2.5
To put that into perspective: this would make widow mines have a larger radius than storm/EMP/fungal. Storm and EMP have 1.5 radius and fungal has 2 (according to liquipedia). Actually it would provide the same damage 40+40 (shields) as psionic storm does(80 over 4 seconds), with the same radius of 1.5, if the new patch goes through. Sounds fair to me. Oh, and storm is instantly cast The furthest range of 2.5 would do a whopping...wait for it... 10+10(shield) i.e. not that material.. The "casting time" of a widow mine shot is not even near 4 seconds though. I'm sorry if I come across as a nitpicker. I just fear for the lives of my dear probes Oh no worries. I was just trying to draw damage comparison. You're right.... RIP probes lol.. 2 radius doing 40 damage is going to obliterate probes. I like it EDIT: Hell, if you have 2 nicely placed widow mines where the 2.5 radius intersected... say bye bye to all the probes. Exactly my point... Sounds about right. A Terran who is unprepared for an oracle and goes afk for 4.5 seconds (the amount of time it takes a mine to burrow and detonate) will lose all their harvesters, too. It's really annoying. That's so not true - the first difference is that Oracles kill worker one by one as opposed to 10 in one blob.. The second difference is that the "game-adjutant" will warn you after you lose few workers.. What's the point in the game-adjutant warning you to see all your base mining gone (except maybe few) ??, so not the same thing, NOT BY A DIAMETER, lol.. I know that the better/higher-skilled players are better at watching the map, but even those can insta-lose games to a hit or two from the "buffed" WM.. AND - the third real difference is - Oracle is energy based unit so you know when/what to expect if you carefully observe it's energy though AND EVEN 4th - you won't even KNOW if there was a mine burrowed unless you actually SEE that rocket coming out of the ground and doing damage.. Instead you might think you got "harassed" while trying to fight, or do other things lol Like - that last one is maybe the most important - I personally think mines would be much more fair if they got invulnerable for 5-10 seconds (or probably only vulnerable to spells like fungal or storm) after a launch but actually being visible even if burrowed so not having to have the "hawk-eye" for something that might "lurk" around, AND Terran could safely "retract" that thing back into his army provided that it's not too far away though OK, not to "argue" about it, nor whine/redesign, but I "posted" that "invulnerable but visible" "fix" - so you'd know what's the mine's biggest problem IMO.. It doesn't "raise" 2 fingers and say "it was me" after doing a huge damage, so you'll not know if it was there if you were like 2 seconds late to "check on everything" or so.. So - THAT might be the greatest problem with the mine TBH - they're basically a "self-revivable DT" in a manner of speaking - that you have to "see it on work" in order to clean it up before it fires again though
No the real difference is that you need a critcal mass (6 marines) to deal with Oracles. If you don't, you get fucked. You don't need critical mass at all to deal with Widow Mines. You only need micro. That's why the former has terrible designed and the latter ins't.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 11 2014 16:57 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 07:32 VArsovskiSC wrote:On July 11 2014 07:26 eightym wrote:On July 11 2014 00:52 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:49 Ctone23 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:47 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:42 Ctone23 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:36 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:02 SNSeigifried wrote:
can someone add these values to the post Splash radius changed from 1.25/1.5/1.75 to 1.5/2/2.5
To put that into perspective: this would make widow mines have a larger radius than storm/EMP/fungal. Storm and EMP have 1.5 radius and fungal has 2 (according to liquipedia). Actually it would provide the same damage 40+40 (shields) as psionic storm does(80 over 4 seconds), with the same radius of 1.5, if the new patch goes through. Sounds fair to me. Oh, and storm is instantly cast The furthest range of 2.5 would do a whopping...wait for it... 10+10(shield) i.e. not that material.. The "casting time" of a widow mine shot is not even near 4 seconds though. I'm sorry if I come across as a nitpicker. I just fear for the lives of my dear probes Oh no worries. I was just trying to draw damage comparison. You're right.... RIP probes lol.. 2 radius doing 40 damage is going to obliterate probes. I like it EDIT: Hell, if you have 2 nicely placed widow mines where the 2.5 radius intersected... say bye bye to all the probes. Exactly my point... Sounds about right. A Terran who is unprepared for an oracle and goes afk for 4.5 seconds (the amount of time it takes a mine to burrow and detonate) will lose all their harvesters, too. It's really annoying. That's so not true - the first difference is that Oracles kill worker one by one as opposed to 10 in one blob.. The second difference is that the "game-adjutant" will warn you after you lose few workers.. What's the point in the game-adjutant warning you to see all your base mining gone (except maybe few) ??, so not the same thing, NOT BY A DIAMETER, lol.. I know that the better/higher-skilled players are better at watching the map, but even those can insta-lose games to a hit or two from the "buffed" WM.. AND - the third real difference is - Oracle is energy based unit so you know when/what to expect if you carefully observe it's energy though AND EVEN 4th - you won't even KNOW if there was a mine burrowed unless you actually SEE that rocket coming out of the ground and doing damage.. Instead you might think you got "harassed" while trying to fight, or do other things lol Like - that last one is maybe the most important - I personally think mines would be much more fair if they got invulnerable for 5-10 seconds (or probably only vulnerable to spells like fungal or storm) after a launch but actually being visible even if burrowed so not having to have the "hawk-eye" for something that might "lurk" around, AND Terran could safely "retract" that thing back into his army provided that it's not too far away though OK, not to "argue" about it, nor whine/redesign, but I "posted" that "invulnerable but visible" "fix" - so you'd know what's the mine's biggest problem IMO.. It doesn't "raise" 2 fingers and say "it was me" after doing a huge damage, so you'll not know if it was there if you were like 2 seconds late to "check on everything" or so.. So - THAT might be the greatest problem with the mine TBH - they're basically a "self-revivable DT" in a manner of speaking - that you have to "see it on work" in order to clean it up before it fires again though No the real difference is that you need a critcal mass (6 marines) to deal with Oracles. If you don't, you get fucked. You don't need critical mass at all to deal with Widow Mines. You only need micro. That's why the former has terrible designed and the latter ins't.
Nope, both designs are fucked. Even before the WM nerf it was stated several times, that if you do not react quickly enough, it is better to not care because you do not clump your probes(therefore you lose more probes, but you still can play). If this patch goes through, now you will lose so many probes either way, YOU HAVE TO REACT ON TIME, otherwise the game ended right there. Same exact scenario like oracle. You didn't reacted properly? You are fucked, game ended. Bye. It's not about micro with this change - as stated above - 2 WM can clear WHOLE mining base!!! This isn't even near an ORacle level, this is far beyond...
It reminds me beginning of HotS, where the only surviving worker to WM drop was SCV. Zerg and Protoss players called WM drops too much, but terrans called them OKish, because, well, it wasn't their problem at all. Give WM buff that ALL workers dies in radius 2, then we can talk about this again with no P hate ,-) Right now I feel just P hate and mean enjoyment from "P is fucked, but we can pretend this buff will affect only TvZ and 70+ banes plays", which is not true.
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On July 11 2014 16:57 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 07:32 VArsovskiSC wrote:On July 11 2014 07:26 eightym wrote:On July 11 2014 00:52 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:49 Ctone23 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:47 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:42 Ctone23 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:36 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:02 SNSeigifried wrote:
can someone add these values to the post Splash radius changed from 1.25/1.5/1.75 to 1.5/2/2.5
To put that into perspective: this would make widow mines have a larger radius than storm/EMP/fungal. Storm and EMP have 1.5 radius and fungal has 2 (according to liquipedia). Actually it would provide the same damage 40+40 (shields) as psionic storm does(80 over 4 seconds), with the same radius of 1.5, if the new patch goes through. Sounds fair to me. Oh, and storm is instantly cast The furthest range of 2.5 would do a whopping...wait for it... 10+10(shield) i.e. not that material.. The "casting time" of a widow mine shot is not even near 4 seconds though. I'm sorry if I come across as a nitpicker. I just fear for the lives of my dear probes Oh no worries. I was just trying to draw damage comparison. You're right.... RIP probes lol.. 2 radius doing 40 damage is going to obliterate probes. I like it EDIT: Hell, if you have 2 nicely placed widow mines where the 2.5 radius intersected... say bye bye to all the probes. Exactly my point... Sounds about right. A Terran who is unprepared for an oracle and goes afk for 4.5 seconds (the amount of time it takes a mine to burrow and detonate) will lose all their harvesters, too. It's really annoying. That's so not true - the first difference is that Oracles kill worker one by one as opposed to 10 in one blob.. The second difference is that the "game-adjutant" will warn you after you lose few workers.. What's the point in the game-adjutant warning you to see all your base mining gone (except maybe few) ??, so not the same thing, NOT BY A DIAMETER, lol.. I know that the better/higher-skilled players are better at watching the map, but even those can insta-lose games to a hit or two from the "buffed" WM.. AND - the third real difference is - Oracle is energy based unit so you know when/what to expect if you carefully observe it's energy though AND EVEN 4th - you won't even KNOW if there was a mine burrowed unless you actually SEE that rocket coming out of the ground and doing damage.. Instead you might think you got "harassed" while trying to fight, or do other things lol Like - that last one is maybe the most important - I personally think mines would be much more fair if they got invulnerable for 5-10 seconds (or probably only vulnerable to spells like fungal or storm) after a launch but actually being visible even if burrowed so not having to have the "hawk-eye" for something that might "lurk" around, AND Terran could safely "retract" that thing back into his army provided that it's not too far away though OK, not to "argue" about it, nor whine/redesign, but I "posted" that "invulnerable but visible" "fix" - so you'd know what's the mine's biggest problem IMO.. It doesn't "raise" 2 fingers and say "it was me" after doing a huge damage, so you'll not know if it was there if you were like 2 seconds late to "check on everything" or so.. So - THAT might be the greatest problem with the mine TBH - they're basically a "self-revivable DT" in a manner of speaking - that you have to "see it on work" in order to clean it up before it fires again though No the real difference is that you need a critcal mass (6 marines) to deal with Oracles. If you don't, you get fucked. You don't need critical mass at all to deal with Widow Mines. You only need micro. That's why the former has terrible designed and the latter ins't.
you need a critical mass for everything though. The difference between an oracle and a banshee (for which you also need a critical mass of units) is that the one happens way earlier. Even for a single mutalisk you'd need "a critical mass" (like 2-3) of marines in position. But all that stuff does not happen that early.
Actually, the oracle is very underpowered for its damagepotential. You cannot just go midgame into oracles to deal with anything. It's just not good enough against anything. It's only good for 5min rushes, because then the opponent may not even have that anything.
It's a retarted place it is in and would need 1-2 patches to be fun, imo.
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You should start reading the post you reply to.
An Oracle flying in is nothing like a mine flying in.
Oracle: got no marines? Gg
Mine: you're too slow + unprepped? Gg
Now guess what is well designed and what is a stupid bo limitation?
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EPT
