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Is the map on? Where can I play it?
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On July 11 2014 17:19 SC2Toastie wrote:
You should start reading the post you reply to.
An Oracle flying in is nothing like a mine flying in.
Oracle: got no marines? Gg
Mine: you're too slow + unprepped? Gg
Now guess what is well designed and what is a stupid bo limitation?
You are right, having to build robo for a possible 6:00 mine drop that could destroy a whole mineral line is a stupid bo limitation
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Just read these forGG mines and started to think.
is there FF on thors AA AoE? Why not if not?
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
The easiest thing to stop toss needing a robo to save their probes is to make widow mines not target workers.
It should've been like that in the first place.
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On July 11 2014 16:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 12:21 Loccstana wrote:On July 11 2014 07:43 Cheren wrote:
They keep making Protoss more boring every time they buff the widow mine and force Protoss to go colossus. They should nerf the colossus instead since it's a boring unit anyway, or buff counters to colossus like the viking.
And most players get their units out of the time warp by 15 seconds anyway, so that's a really small nerf. I would like to see the Collosus damage get change from 15 to 10 + 5 light That fucks up PvZ in such a large way though. Without Colossi, roaches are probably out of control. Yes: Immortals are still great against them. But Immortals are weak against zerglings and only break even with hydralisks. Not to mention that a nerf against static defense, queens, infestors, ultras is pretty much uncalled for and could cause severe problems with the ling/ultra/queen/infestor style, that is very powerful on bigger maps. And I think Colossi are in a great spot in PvP currently. They are not the only strong option for a ground army - Archon/Immortal based play seems to hold its own very well against lower Colossi numbers - and mass Colossus can be countered so hard by Tempests, that it is a very questionable compositional choice. Neither do I think this is justified in PvT. Colossi don't shred Marauders that hard anyways, I think that's rather on zealots eating so many shots, that it sometimes seems like Colossi are a powerhouse vs marauders. And more generally speaking, I don't think Protoss needs a nerf in the midgame. They often have a hard time as is to grab a third base and defend it or surviving an SCV pull. It's really on Terran's own lategame transitions in my opinion. Like, (the few times) when I play bio in TvP and get into the midgame everything feels fine. You harass, maybe even snipe a nexus. You build up your viking count vs Colossi and take your bases... and then you just start hand wringing because your options seem to come down to suiciding your army on buildings (massive dropping/nexus sniping) and suiciding your economy on army (SCV pulling). There is no third option that says, he has Colossi and Templar on the battlefield, so build something that doesn't get torn apart by them.
Theoretically MMMGV is as strong as colossi+templar. The problem is that even the best terrans will fuck up if toss does all the right things (force multitasking while the fight happens). The margin for terran is just very slim.
On July 11 2014 17:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 16:57 Hider wrote:On July 11 2014 07:32 VArsovskiSC wrote:On July 11 2014 07:26 eightym wrote:On July 11 2014 00:52 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:49 Ctone23 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:47 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:42 Ctone23 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:36 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:02 SNSeigifried wrote:
can someone add these values to the post Splash radius changed from 1.25/1.5/1.75 to 1.5/2/2.5
To put that into perspective: this would make widow mines have a larger radius than storm/EMP/fungal. Storm and EMP have 1.5 radius and fungal has 2 (according to liquipedia). Actually it would provide the same damage 40+40 (shields) as psionic storm does(80 over 4 seconds), with the same radius of 1.5, if the new patch goes through. Sounds fair to me. Oh, and storm is instantly cast  The furthest range of 2.5 would do a whopping...wait for it... 10+10(shield) i.e. not that material.. The "casting time" of a widow mine shot is not even near 4 seconds though. I'm sorry if I come across as a nitpicker. I just fear for the lives of my dear probes Oh no worries. I was just trying to draw damage comparison. You're right.... RIP probes lol.. 2 radius doing 40 damage is going to obliterate probes. I like it  EDIT: Hell, if you have 2 nicely placed widow mines where the 2.5 radius intersected... say bye bye to all the probes. Exactly my point... Sounds about right. A Terran who is unprepared for an oracle and goes afk for 4.5 seconds (the amount of time it takes a mine to burrow and detonate) will lose all their harvesters, too. It's really annoying.  That's so not true - the first difference is that Oracles kill worker one by one as opposed to 10 in one blob.. The second difference is that the "game-adjutant" will warn you after you lose few workers.. What's the point in the game-adjutant warning you to see all your base mining gone (except maybe few) ??, so not the same thing, NOT BY A DIAMETER, lol.. I know that the better/higher-skilled players are better at watching the map, but even those can insta-lose games to a hit or two from the "buffed" WM.. AND - the third real difference is - Oracle is energy based unit so you know when/what to expect if you carefully observe it's energy though AND EVEN 4th - you won't even KNOW if there was a mine burrowed unless you actually SEE that rocket coming out of the ground and doing damage.. Instead you might think you got "harassed" while trying to fight, or do other things lol Like - that last one is maybe the most important - I personally think mines would be much more fair if they got invulnerable for 5-10 seconds (or probably only vulnerable to spells like fungal or storm) after a launch but actually being visible even if burrowed so not having to have the "hawk-eye" for something that might "lurk" around, AND Terran could safely "retract" that thing back into his army provided that it's not too far away though OK, not to "argue" about it, nor whine/redesign, but I "posted" that "invulnerable but visible" "fix" - so you'd know what's the mine's biggest problem IMO.. It doesn't "raise" 2 fingers and say "it was me" after doing a huge damage, so you'll not know if it was there if you were like 2 seconds late to "check on everything" or so.. So - THAT might be the greatest problem with the mine TBH - they're basically a "self-revivable DT" in a manner of speaking - that you have to "see it on work" in order to clean it up before it fires again though No the real difference is that you need a critcal mass (6 marines) to deal with Oracles. If you don't, you get fucked. You don't need critical mass at all to deal with Widow Mines. You only need micro. That's why the former has terrible designed and the latter ins't. you need a critical mass for everything though. The difference between an oracle and a banshee (for which you also need a critical mass of units) is that the one happens way earlier. Even for a single mutalisk you'd need "a critical mass" (like 2-3) of marines in position. But all that stuff does not happen that early. Actually, the oracle is very underpowered for its damagepotential. You cannot just go midgame into oracles to deal with anything. It's just not good enough against anything. It's only good for 5min rushes, because then the opponent may not even have that anything. It's a retarted place it is in and would need 1-2 patches to be fun, imo.
IMHO banshees in TvT especially without cloak are the perfect harassment unit designwise. The defending player will nearly always have the tools to hold off the harass but the outcome is decided by unit control. The interaction between banshees and marines is perfect. Both players can sink apm into the micro and gain an advantage. The better player can gain a significant, but not game ending lead. The banshee player can still do some damage even when turrets and/or vikings are up, because of the range and the same airspeed. The interaction between banshees and the possible defense is very deep and always offers options.
Oracels in TvP on the other hand are a lot more "digital". You can do damage to workers wherever there are less then 6 marines or no turrets. There is no longer interaction where both sides have to put in apm to decide the outcome. On top of that the unit forces terran to choose between a very limited amount of possible builds.
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On July 11 2014 17:45 eusoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 17:19 SC2Toastie wrote:
You should start reading the post you reply to.
An Oracle flying in is nothing like a mine flying in.
Oracle: got no marines? Gg
Mine: you're too slow + unprepped? Gg
Now guess what is well designed and what is a stupid bo limitation? You are right, having to build robo for a possible 6:00 mine drop that could destroy a whole mineral line is a stupid bo limitation
you don't have to.
You can build an oracle, sac 1 worker per mine and then clean them up.
Or you can build a forge and a canon per mineral line.
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On July 11 2014 18:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 17:45 eusoc wrote:On July 11 2014 17:19 SC2Toastie wrote:
You should start reading the post you reply to.
An Oracle flying in is nothing like a mine flying in.
Oracle: got no marines? Gg
Mine: you're too slow + unprepped? Gg
Now guess what is well designed and what is a stupid bo limitation? You are right, having to build robo for a possible 6:00 mine drop that could destroy a whole mineral line is a stupid bo limitation you don't have to. You can build an oracle, sac 1 worker per mine and then clean them up. Or you can build a forge and a canon per mineral line.
Killing them off with prepositioned units before they borrow is yet another counterplay possible with pretty much every opening.
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On July 11 2014 18:06 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 16:05 Big J wrote:On July 11 2014 12:21 Loccstana wrote:On July 11 2014 07:43 Cheren wrote:
They keep making Protoss more boring every time they buff the widow mine and force Protoss to go colossus. They should nerf the colossus instead since it's a boring unit anyway, or buff counters to colossus like the viking.
And most players get their units out of the time warp by 15 seconds anyway, so that's a really small nerf. I would like to see the Collosus damage get change from 15 to 10 + 5 light That fucks up PvZ in such a large way though. Without Colossi, roaches are probably out of control. Yes: Immortals are still great against them. But Immortals are weak against zerglings and only break even with hydralisks. Not to mention that a nerf against static defense, queens, infestors, ultras is pretty much uncalled for and could cause severe problems with the ling/ultra/queen/infestor style, that is very powerful on bigger maps. And I think Colossi are in a great spot in PvP currently. They are not the only strong option for a ground army - Archon/Immortal based play seems to hold its own very well against lower Colossi numbers - and mass Colossus can be countered so hard by Tempests, that it is a very questionable compositional choice. Neither do I think this is justified in PvT. Colossi don't shred Marauders that hard anyways, I think that's rather on zealots eating so many shots, that it sometimes seems like Colossi are a powerhouse vs marauders. And more generally speaking, I don't think Protoss needs a nerf in the midgame. They often have a hard time as is to grab a third base and defend it or surviving an SCV pull. It's really on Terran's own lategame transitions in my opinion. Like, (the few times) when I play bio in TvP and get into the midgame everything feels fine. You harass, maybe even snipe a nexus. You build up your viking count vs Colossi and take your bases... and then you just start hand wringing because your options seem to come down to suiciding your army on buildings (massive dropping/nexus sniping) and suiciding your economy on army (SCV pulling). There is no third option that says, he has Colossi and Templar on the battlefield, so build something that doesn't get torn apart by them. Theoretically MMMGV is as strong as colossi+templar. The problem is that even the best terrans will fuck up if toss does all the right things (force multitasking while the fight happens). The margin for terran is just very slim.
Not sure what you understand as theoretically.
Practically, your composition will just be worse, since with the modern early game Protoss allins, you are not going to be able to tech somewhat straight to ghosts. You have to make units/techs very early which leads to having to attack in the midgame. Imo, in WoL you could actually play passively (mix in a drop or two, posture, but never really attack in) with Terran against Protoss and it was actually on the Protoss to prevent massive ghost armies from happening OR to adpat and play greedier himself.
So, yeah, theoretically there are biobased armies that can combat Protoss lategame. Just practically, you can hardly ever get there since you are stuck massing the wrong units all game long, hence, where - at least - I am getting stuck looking for counters by compositional choices, instead of counters by being ahead from macro/gameplay choices.
In general, I don't like it when you only have one minimax composition that then works against everything. I like the dynamics of PvZ, TvT (TvZ to a lesser extend as well) much more, where both players have a few transition/composition choices that can exploit an opponent not keeping up. It makes for a good circular unit balancing, that makes matchups more robust and less reliant on "hitting certain timings, else your composition doesn't work".
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On July 11 2014 18:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 17:45 eusoc wrote:On July 11 2014 17:19 SC2Toastie wrote:
You should start reading the post you reply to.
An Oracle flying in is nothing like a mine flying in.
Oracle: got no marines? Gg
Mine: you're too slow + unprepped? Gg
Now guess what is well designed and what is a stupid bo limitation? You are right, having to build robo for a possible 6:00 mine drop that could destroy a whole mineral line is a stupid bo limitation you don't have to. You can build an oracle, sac 1 worker per mine and then clean them up. Or you can build a forge and a canon per mineral line.
Yep, get a forge and a cannon per mineral line at 6:00 without the option to scout if I play a standard macro game. That means putting cannons blind.
The only way you can scout a terran base before 6:00 is going 1 base oracle which is easily scouted. No more MSC scout thx to vision nerf. The fastest allucination will arrive at terran base after 6:00
And oracle isn't a reliable form of detection as observer is, and then having to still build a robo because ht openings are dead makes the oracle a 300/300 observer as you can't use it to harrass anymore.
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David Kim doesn't understand that the problem Terran has, and to a small extent Zerg, which is why those races got creative about all ins or spamming festor brood lord, is stalker colossus, or more specifically, colossus. Not to say that T or Z wouldn't be OP vs P without colossus, but we have to gauge the game by brood war, since a ton of the core units of SC2 come from brood war.
First, there's a problem with the massable late game armies of high tech BL/festor, Coloss/VR/Archon, etc. Why? Because cost structures are more similar than differentiating from Brood War. For instance, why do we have double gas yet the cost of the High Templar is the same as Brood War (single gas)?
Second, due to the original setup of SC1 in the three races, the balance of P more or less was due to units of high power being slow, expensive, and difficult to move around. Goons and speedlots were core to the army as long as there was consistent army trading. Building up a deathball was more difficult because of first the gas restriction, and second the constant attrition.
Colossus is a real game changer to P from Brood War because it's extremely mobile. requires no mineral upkeep to continue attacking like reaver, and not only that but reaver itself had a longer production cycle for scarabs compared to the firing rate, which meant it could "run dry" and it's attack speed would slow slightly. Colossus has more range, more durability, and a constant stream of unmitigated damage that is AoE.
It seems like P got more powerful in a lot of ways while T got nerfed in a lot of ways. Siege tank, emp, etc. I really miss emp being on a flying unit like a sci vessel rather than on the easily killable and more terrain confined ghost.
On July 11 2014 18:06 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 16:05 Big J wrote:On July 11 2014 12:21 Loccstana wrote:On July 11 2014 07:43 Cheren wrote:
They keep making Protoss more boring every time they buff the widow mine and force Protoss to go colossus. They should nerf the colossus instead since it's a boring unit anyway, or buff counters to colossus like the viking.
And most players get their units out of the time warp by 15 seconds anyway, so that's a really small nerf. I would like to see the Collosus damage get change from 15 to 10 + 5 light That fucks up PvZ in such a large way though. Without Colossi, roaches are probably out of control. Yes: Immortals are still great against them. But Immortals are weak against zerglings and only break even with hydralisks. Not to mention that a nerf against static defense, queens, infestors, ultras is pretty much uncalled for and could cause severe problems with the ling/ultra/queen/infestor style, that is very powerful on bigger maps. And I think Colossi are in a great spot in PvP currently. They are not the only strong option for a ground army - Archon/Immortal based play seems to hold its own very well against lower Colossi numbers - and mass Colossus can be countered so hard by Tempests, that it is a very questionable compositional choice. Neither do I think this is justified in PvT. Colossi don't shred Marauders that hard anyways, I think that's rather on zealots eating so many shots, that it sometimes seems like Colossi are a powerhouse vs marauders. And more generally speaking, I don't think Protoss needs a nerf in the midgame. They often have a hard time as is to grab a third base and defend it or surviving an SCV pull. It's really on Terran's own lategame transitions in my opinion. Like, (the few times) when I play bio in TvP and get into the midgame everything feels fine. You harass, maybe even snipe a nexus. You build up your viking count vs Colossi and take your bases... and then you just start hand wringing because your options seem to come down to suiciding your army on buildings (massive dropping/nexus sniping) and suiciding your economy on army (SCV pulling). There is no third option that says, he has Colossi and Templar on the battlefield, so build something that doesn't get torn apart by them. Theoretically MMMGV is as strong as colossi+templar. The problem is that even the best terrans will fuck up if toss does all the right things (force multitasking while the fight happens). The margin for terran is just very slim. Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 17:16 Big J wrote:On July 11 2014 16:57 Hider wrote:On July 11 2014 07:32 VArsovskiSC wrote:On July 11 2014 07:26 eightym wrote:On July 11 2014 00:52 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:49 Ctone23 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:47 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:42 Ctone23 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:36 linuxguru1 wrote:
[quote]
To put that into perspective: this would make widow mines have a larger radius than storm/EMP/fungal. Storm and EMP have 1.5 radius and fungal has 2 (according to liquipedia). Actually it would provide the same damage 40+40 (shields) as psionic storm does(80 over 4 seconds), with the same radius of 1.5, if the new patch goes through. Sounds fair to me. Oh, and storm is instantly cast The furthest range of 2.5 would do a whopping...wait for it... 10+10(shield) i.e. not that material.. The "casting time" of a widow mine shot is not even near 4 seconds though. I'm sorry if I come across as a nitpicker. I just fear for the lives of my dear probes Oh no worries. I was just trying to draw damage comparison. You're right.... RIP probes lol.. 2 radius doing 40 damage is going to obliterate probes. I like it EDIT: Hell, if you have 2 nicely placed widow mines where the 2.5 radius intersected... say bye bye to all the probes. Exactly my point... Sounds about right. A Terran who is unprepared for an oracle and goes afk for 4.5 seconds (the amount of time it takes a mine to burrow and detonate) will lose all their harvesters, too. It's really annoying. That's so not true - the first difference is that Oracles kill worker one by one as opposed to 10 in one blob.. The second difference is that the "game-adjutant" will warn you after you lose few workers.. What's the point in the game-adjutant warning you to see all your base mining gone (except maybe few) ??, so not the same thing, NOT BY A DIAMETER, lol.. I know that the better/higher-skilled players are better at watching the map, but even those can insta-lose games to a hit or two from the "buffed" WM.. AND - the third real difference is - Oracle is energy based unit so you know when/what to expect if you carefully observe it's energy though AND EVEN 4th - you won't even KNOW if there was a mine burrowed unless you actually SEE that rocket coming out of the ground and doing damage.. Instead you might think you got "harassed" while trying to fight, or do other things lol Like - that last one is maybe the most important - I personally think mines would be much more fair if they got invulnerable for 5-10 seconds (or probably only vulnerable to spells like fungal or storm) after a launch but actually being visible even if burrowed so not having to have the "hawk-eye" for something that might "lurk" around, AND Terran could safely "retract" that thing back into his army provided that it's not too far away though OK, not to "argue" about it, nor whine/redesign, but I "posted" that "invulnerable but visible" "fix" - so you'd know what's the mine's biggest problem IMO.. It doesn't "raise" 2 fingers and say "it was me" after doing a huge damage, so you'll not know if it was there if you were like 2 seconds late to "check on everything" or so.. So - THAT might be the greatest problem with the mine TBH - they're basically a "self-revivable DT" in a manner of speaking - that you have to "see it on work" in order to clean it up before it fires again though No the real difference is that you need a critcal mass (6 marines) to deal with Oracles. If you don't, you get fucked. You don't need critical mass at all to deal with Widow Mines. You only need micro. That's why the former has terrible designed and the latter ins't. you need a critical mass for everything though. The difference between an oracle and a banshee (for which you also need a critical mass of units) is that the one happens way earlier. Even for a single mutalisk you'd need "a critical mass" (like 2-3) of marines in position. But all that stuff does not happen that early. Actually, the oracle is very underpowered for its damagepotential. You cannot just go midgame into oracles to deal with anything. It's just not good enough against anything. It's only good for 5min rushes, because then the opponent may not even have that anything. It's a retarted place it is in and would need 1-2 patches to be fun, imo. IMHO banshees in TvT especially without cloak are the perfect harassment unit designwise. The defending player will nearly always have the tools to hold off the harass but the outcome is decided by unit control. The interaction between banshees and marines is perfect. Both players can sink apm into the micro and gain an advantage. The better player can gain a significant, but not game ending lead. The banshee player can still do some damage even when turrets and/or vikings are up, because of the range and the same airspeed. The interaction between banshees and the possible defense is very deep and always offers options. Oracels in TvP on the other hand are a lot more "digital". You can do damage to workers wherever there are less then 6 marines or no turrets. There is no longer interaction where both sides have to put in apm to decide the outcome. On top of that the unit forces terran to choose between a very limited amount of possible builds.
Excellent post. Oracle play is indeed binary. It either wins you the game or it was useless. The only caveat to this might be in some sort of three gate expansion that converts into either frontal pressure with oracle harass or expansion defense with oracle harass.
I think there's some real potential there. Most terrans don't expect "late" oracle play.
As to bio being out of control without colossus, psi storm still rapes them madly. This would be even more true if Protoss forced engagements in chokes. Archon/storm is quite strong vs bio.
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On July 11 2014 18:24 eusoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 18:07 Big J wrote:On July 11 2014 17:45 eusoc wrote:On July 11 2014 17:19 SC2Toastie wrote:
You should start reading the post you reply to.
An Oracle flying in is nothing like a mine flying in.
Oracle: got no marines? Gg
Mine: you're too slow + unprepped? Gg
Now guess what is well designed and what is a stupid bo limitation? You are right, having to build robo for a possible 6:00 mine drop that could destroy a whole mineral line is a stupid bo limitation you don't have to. You can build an oracle, sac 1 worker per mine and then clean them up. Or you can build a forge and a canon per mineral line. Yep, get a forge and a cannon per mineral line at 6:00 without the option to scout if I play a standard macro game. That means putting cannons blind. The only way you can scout a terran base before 6:00 is going 1 base oracle which is easily scouted. No more MSC scout thx to vision nerf. The fastest allucination will arrive at terran base after 6:00 And oracle isn't a reliable form of detection as observer is, and then having to still build a robo because ht openings are dead makes the oracle a 300/300 observer as you can't use it to harrass anymore.
6:00 is a gas first opening, which you will always see with your worker scout, because he cannot afford a rax+depot+depot wall with it, and his marine will be late to try and deny scouting.
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On July 11 2014 18:24 eusoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 18:07 Big J wrote:On July 11 2014 17:45 eusoc wrote:On July 11 2014 17:19 SC2Toastie wrote:
You should start reading the post you reply to.
An Oracle flying in is nothing like a mine flying in.
Oracle: got no marines? Gg
Mine: you're too slow + unprepped? Gg
Now guess what is well designed and what is a stupid bo limitation? You are right, having to build robo for a possible 6:00 mine drop that could destroy a whole mineral line is a stupid bo limitation you don't have to. You can build an oracle, sac 1 worker per mine and then clean them up. Or you can build a forge and a canon per mineral line. Yep, get a forge and a cannon per mineral line at 6:00 without the option to scout if I play a standard macro game. That means putting cannons blind. The only way you can scout a terran base before 6:00 is going 1 base oracle which is easily scouted. No more MSC scout thx to vision nerf. The fastest allucination will arrive at terran base after 6:00 And oracle isn't a reliable form of detection as observer is, and then having to still build a robo because ht openings are dead makes the oracle a 300/300 observer as you can't use it to harrass anymore.
So it's fine that Terran can't scout with Reapers because of stupid Blink All-in, and Terran has to open 6 Marines or risk death against Oracle, but a Protoss having to build two Cannons behind his impenetrable wall of MSC to be 100% safe is inhuman cruelty. I gotcha.
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On July 11 2014 18:32 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 18:24 eusoc wrote:On July 11 2014 18:07 Big J wrote:On July 11 2014 17:45 eusoc wrote:On July 11 2014 17:19 SC2Toastie wrote:
You should start reading the post you reply to.
An Oracle flying in is nothing like a mine flying in.
Oracle: got no marines? Gg
Mine: you're too slow + unprepped? Gg
Now guess what is well designed and what is a stupid bo limitation? You are right, having to build robo for a possible 6:00 mine drop that could destroy a whole mineral line is a stupid bo limitation you don't have to. You can build an oracle, sac 1 worker per mine and then clean them up. Or you can build a forge and a canon per mineral line. Yep, get a forge and a cannon per mineral line at 6:00 without the option to scout if I play a standard macro game. That means putting cannons blind. The only way you can scout a terran base before 6:00 is going 1 base oracle which is easily scouted. No more MSC scout thx to vision nerf. The fastest allucination will arrive at terran base after 6:00 And oracle isn't a reliable form of detection as observer is, and then having to still build a robo because ht openings are dead makes the oracle a 300/300 observer as you can't use it to harrass anymore. So it's fine that Terran can't scout with Reapers because of stupid Blink All-in, and Terran has to open 6 Marines or risk death against Oracle, but a Protoss having to build two Cannons behind his impenetrable wall of MSC to be 100% safe is inhuman cruelty. I gotcha.
You scout 1 base opening before MSC is even out and later on you can sacrifice a reaper and get the scout no matter what.
You can't deny a whole scout of your base with just a MSC and a stalker.
And just to let you know, a MSC and a stalker are way more expansive than 6 marines. Oh, but you were comparing 6 marine that you still would make while able to scout any early aggression to 2 completely blind cannons made on the assumption that the terran MAY be going for a mine drop. Or u may as well build a robo and go into the same build order from 2011.
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On July 11 2014 17:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 16:57 Hider wrote:On July 11 2014 07:32 VArsovskiSC wrote:On July 11 2014 07:26 eightym wrote:On July 11 2014 00:52 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:49 Ctone23 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:47 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:42 Ctone23 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:36 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:02 SNSeigifried wrote:
can someone add these values to the post Splash radius changed from 1.25/1.5/1.75 to 1.5/2/2.5
To put that into perspective: this would make widow mines have a larger radius than storm/EMP/fungal. Storm and EMP have 1.5 radius and fungal has 2 (according to liquipedia). Actually it would provide the same damage 40+40 (shields) as psionic storm does(80 over 4 seconds), with the same radius of 1.5, if the new patch goes through. Sounds fair to me. Oh, and storm is instantly cast The furthest range of 2.5 would do a whopping...wait for it... 10+10(shield) i.e. not that material.. The "casting time" of a widow mine shot is not even near 4 seconds though. I'm sorry if I come across as a nitpicker. I just fear for the lives of my dear probes Oh no worries. I was just trying to draw damage comparison. You're right.... RIP probes lol.. 2 radius doing 40 damage is going to obliterate probes. I like it EDIT: Hell, if you have 2 nicely placed widow mines where the 2.5 radius intersected... say bye bye to all the probes. Exactly my point... Sounds about right. A Terran who is unprepared for an oracle and goes afk for 4.5 seconds (the amount of time it takes a mine to burrow and detonate) will lose all their harvesters, too. It's really annoying. That's so not true - the first difference is that Oracles kill worker one by one as opposed to 10 in one blob.. The second difference is that the "game-adjutant" will warn you after you lose few workers.. What's the point in the game-adjutant warning you to see all your base mining gone (except maybe few) ??, so not the same thing, NOT BY A DIAMETER, lol.. I know that the better/higher-skilled players are better at watching the map, but even those can insta-lose games to a hit or two from the "buffed" WM.. AND - the third real difference is - Oracle is energy based unit so you know when/what to expect if you carefully observe it's energy though AND EVEN 4th - you won't even KNOW if there was a mine burrowed unless you actually SEE that rocket coming out of the ground and doing damage.. Instead you might think you got "harassed" while trying to fight, or do other things lol Like - that last one is maybe the most important - I personally think mines would be much more fair if they got invulnerable for 5-10 seconds (or probably only vulnerable to spells like fungal or storm) after a launch but actually being visible even if burrowed so not having to have the "hawk-eye" for something that might "lurk" around, AND Terran could safely "retract" that thing back into his army provided that it's not too far away though OK, not to "argue" about it, nor whine/redesign, but I "posted" that "invulnerable but visible" "fix" - so you'd know what's the mine's biggest problem IMO.. It doesn't "raise" 2 fingers and say "it was me" after doing a huge damage, so you'll not know if it was there if you were like 2 seconds late to "check on everything" or so.. So - THAT might be the greatest problem with the mine TBH - they're basically a "self-revivable DT" in a manner of speaking - that you have to "see it on work" in order to clean it up before it fires again though No the real difference is that you need a critcal mass (6 marines) to deal with Oracles. If you don't, you get fucked. You don't need critical mass at all to deal with Widow Mines. You only need micro. That's why the former has terrible designed and the latter ins't. you need a critical mass for everything though. The difference between an oracle and a banshee (for which you also need a critical mass of units) is that the one happens way earlier. Even for a single mutalisk you'd need "a critical mass" (like 2-3) of marines in position. But all that stuff does not happen that early. Actually, the oracle is very underpowered for its damagepotential. You cannot just go midgame into oracles to deal with anything. It's just not good enough against anything. It's only good for 5min rushes, because then the opponent may not even have that anything. It's a retarted place it is in and would need 1-2 patches to be fun, imo.
1 Marine can kill a Widow mine though. The importance of critical mass declines when it's no longer only about numbers, but more about micro.
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On July 11 2014 18:42 eusoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 18:32 pure.Wasted wrote:On July 11 2014 18:24 eusoc wrote:On July 11 2014 18:07 Big J wrote:On July 11 2014 17:45 eusoc wrote:On July 11 2014 17:19 SC2Toastie wrote:
You should start reading the post you reply to.
An Oracle flying in is nothing like a mine flying in.
Oracle: got no marines? Gg
Mine: you're too slow + unprepped? Gg
Now guess what is well designed and what is a stupid bo limitation? You are right, having to build robo for a possible 6:00 mine drop that could destroy a whole mineral line is a stupid bo limitation you don't have to. You can build an oracle, sac 1 worker per mine and then clean them up. Or you can build a forge and a canon per mineral line. Yep, get a forge and a cannon per mineral line at 6:00 without the option to scout if I play a standard macro game. That means putting cannons blind. The only way you can scout a terran base before 6:00 is going 1 base oracle which is easily scouted. No more MSC scout thx to vision nerf. The fastest allucination will arrive at terran base after 6:00 And oracle isn't a reliable form of detection as observer is, and then having to still build a robo because ht openings are dead makes the oracle a 300/300 observer as you can't use it to harrass anymore. So it's fine that Terran can't scout with Reapers because of stupid Blink All-in, and Terran has to open 6 Marines or risk death against Oracle, but a Protoss having to build two Cannons behind his impenetrable wall of MSC to be 100% safe is inhuman cruelty. I gotcha. You scout 1 base opening before MSC is even out and later on you can sacrifice a reaper and get the scout no matter what.You can't deny a whole scout of your base with just a MSC and a stalker. And just to let you know, a MSC and a stalker are way more expansive than 6 marines. Oh, but you were comparing 6 marine that you still would make while able to scout any early aggression to 2 completely blind cannons made on the assumption that the terran MAY be going for a mine drop. Or u may as well build a robo and go into the same build order from 2011.
Unless the protoss base is well sim-citied and... that stargate could be proxied somewhere in the map along with the possiblity of twilight councils to DT shrines. A reaper scout DOES NOT guarantee that you'll see everything. Sometimes two reapers ain't enough.
And just to let you know, that 1 MSC and stalker is all you need for the first 6 to 8 mins (or more) depending on how you contain the Terran say a single oracle or two. Theres no downside of putting down cannons for protoss. Nothing is slowed down because unlike WoL, your not having to sink minerals/gas in early gateways, sentries or w/e to hold off any early pushes coming your way thanks to... nexus cannon! .. As long as you can minimize or even shut down the 2 medivac timing, its all too easy for most protoss unless your a korean Terran pro.
And no Protoss from my memory is using any builds from 2011.
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On July 11 2014 18:47 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 17:16 Big J wrote:On July 11 2014 16:57 Hider wrote:On July 11 2014 07:32 VArsovskiSC wrote:On July 11 2014 07:26 eightym wrote:On July 11 2014 00:52 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:49 Ctone23 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:47 linuxguru1 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:42 Ctone23 wrote:On July 09 2014 04:36 linuxguru1 wrote:
[quote]
To put that into perspective: this would make widow mines have a larger radius than storm/EMP/fungal. Storm and EMP have 1.5 radius and fungal has 2 (according to liquipedia). Actually it would provide the same damage 40+40 (shields) as psionic storm does(80 over 4 seconds), with the same radius of 1.5, if the new patch goes through. Sounds fair to me. Oh, and storm is instantly cast The furthest range of 2.5 would do a whopping...wait for it... 10+10(shield) i.e. not that material.. The "casting time" of a widow mine shot is not even near 4 seconds though. I'm sorry if I come across as a nitpicker. I just fear for the lives of my dear probes Oh no worries. I was just trying to draw damage comparison. You're right.... RIP probes lol.. 2 radius doing 40 damage is going to obliterate probes. I like it EDIT: Hell, if you have 2 nicely placed widow mines where the 2.5 radius intersected... say bye bye to all the probes. Exactly my point... Sounds about right. A Terran who is unprepared for an oracle and goes afk for 4.5 seconds (the amount of time it takes a mine to burrow and detonate) will lose all their harvesters, too. It's really annoying. That's so not true - the first difference is that Oracles kill worker one by one as opposed to 10 in one blob.. The second difference is that the "game-adjutant" will warn you after you lose few workers.. What's the point in the game-adjutant warning you to see all your base mining gone (except maybe few) ??, so not the same thing, NOT BY A DIAMETER, lol.. I know that the better/higher-skilled players are better at watching the map, but even those can insta-lose games to a hit or two from the "buffed" WM.. AND - the third real difference is - Oracle is energy based unit so you know when/what to expect if you carefully observe it's energy though AND EVEN 4th - you won't even KNOW if there was a mine burrowed unless you actually SEE that rocket coming out of the ground and doing damage.. Instead you might think you got "harassed" while trying to fight, or do other things lol Like - that last one is maybe the most important - I personally think mines would be much more fair if they got invulnerable for 5-10 seconds (or probably only vulnerable to spells like fungal or storm) after a launch but actually being visible even if burrowed so not having to have the "hawk-eye" for something that might "lurk" around, AND Terran could safely "retract" that thing back into his army provided that it's not too far away though OK, not to "argue" about it, nor whine/redesign, but I "posted" that "invulnerable but visible" "fix" - so you'd know what's the mine's biggest problem IMO.. It doesn't "raise" 2 fingers and say "it was me" after doing a huge damage, so you'll not know if it was there if you were like 2 seconds late to "check on everything" or so.. So - THAT might be the greatest problem with the mine TBH - they're basically a "self-revivable DT" in a manner of speaking - that you have to "see it on work" in order to clean it up before it fires again though No the real difference is that you need a critcal mass (6 marines) to deal with Oracles. If you don't, you get fucked. You don't need critical mass at all to deal with Widow Mines. You only need micro. That's why the former has terrible designed and the latter ins't. you need a critical mass for everything though. The difference between an oracle and a banshee (for which you also need a critical mass of units) is that the one happens way earlier. Even for a single mutalisk you'd need "a critical mass" (like 2-3) of marines in position. But all that stuff does not happen that early. Actually, the oracle is very underpowered for its damagepotential. You cannot just go midgame into oracles to deal with anything. It's just not good enough against anything. It's only good for 5min rushes, because then the opponent may not even have that anything. It's a retarted place it is in and would need 1-2 patches to be fun, imo. 1 Marine can kill a Widow mine though. The importance of critical mass declines when it's no longer only about numbers, but more about micro.
yeah that's of course true and something really cool about the mine. It can be dealt with by having anything+detection, sometimes even without detection due to how it attacks. Makes it a really cool unit imo.
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On July 11 2014 18:52 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 18:42 eusoc wrote:On July 11 2014 18:32 pure.Wasted wrote:On July 11 2014 18:24 eusoc wrote:On July 11 2014 18:07 Big J wrote:On July 11 2014 17:45 eusoc wrote:On July 11 2014 17:19 SC2Toastie wrote:
You should start reading the post you reply to.
An Oracle flying in is nothing like a mine flying in.
Oracle: got no marines? Gg
Mine: you're too slow + unprepped? Gg
Now guess what is well designed and what is a stupid bo limitation? You are right, having to build robo for a possible 6:00 mine drop that could destroy a whole mineral line is a stupid bo limitation you don't have to. You can build an oracle, sac 1 worker per mine and then clean them up. Or you can build a forge and a canon per mineral line. Yep, get a forge and a cannon per mineral line at 6:00 without the option to scout if I play a standard macro game. That means putting cannons blind. The only way you can scout a terran base before 6:00 is going 1 base oracle which is easily scouted. No more MSC scout thx to vision nerf. The fastest allucination will arrive at terran base after 6:00 And oracle isn't a reliable form of detection as observer is, and then having to still build a robo because ht openings are dead makes the oracle a 300/300 observer as you can't use it to harrass anymore. So it's fine that Terran can't scout with Reapers because of stupid Blink All-in, and Terran has to open 6 Marines or risk death against Oracle, but a Protoss having to build two Cannons behind his impenetrable wall of MSC to be 100% safe is inhuman cruelty. I gotcha. You scout 1 base opening before MSC is even out and later on you can sacrifice a reaper and get the scout no matter what.You can't deny a whole scout of your base with just a MSC and a stalker. And just to let you know, a MSC and a stalker are way more expansive than 6 marines. Oh, but you were comparing 6 marine that you still would make while able to scout any early aggression to 2 completely blind cannons made on the assumption that the terran MAY be going for a mine drop. Or u may as well build a robo and go into the same build order from 2011. Unless the protoss base is well sim-citied and... that stargate could be proxied somewhere in the map along with the possiblity of twilight councils to DT shrines. A reaper scout DOES NOT guarantee that you'll see everything. Sometimes two reapers ain't enough. And just to let you know, that 1 MSC and stalker is all you need for the first 6 to 8 mins (or more) depending on how you contain the Terran say a single oracle or two. Theres no downside of putting down cannons for protoss. Nothing is slowed down because unlike WoL, your not having to sink minerals/gas in early gateways, sentries or w/e to hold off any early pushes coming your way thanks to... nexus cannon! .. As long as you can minimize or even shut down the 2 medivac timing, its all too easy for most protoss unless your a korean Terran pro. And no Protoss from my memory is using any builds from 2011.
With the forst reaper scout you know if there are proxy on the map and easily find it.. and there is no way to deny that as you have no unit when the reaper gets into the base. Once scouted the 1 base play all you have to do is to stay on 1 base(lifting your cc from the natural eventually), build a turret in the mineral line and you are safe from DT or oracle or blink. And you can still scout the expansion. with the reaper.
To contain the terran you need to spend the 300/300 for the oracle, not much different from getting extra gates and sentries. The benefit is that you get some harrass, but sill you'll have to build gates before even thinking of taking a 3rd
And Colossi/blink double forge is so 2011, really it is. I am not talking about the specific build order the the main idea behind it that hasn't changed. Sure there may be a mine drop or an oracle harrass in the early-mid game but everyting else is just the same.
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On July 11 2014 19:34 eusoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 18:52 YyapSsap wrote:On July 11 2014 18:42 eusoc wrote:On July 11 2014 18:32 pure.Wasted wrote:On July 11 2014 18:24 eusoc wrote:On July 11 2014 18:07 Big J wrote:On July 11 2014 17:45 eusoc wrote:On July 11 2014 17:19 SC2Toastie wrote:
You should start reading the post you reply to.
An Oracle flying in is nothing like a mine flying in.
Oracle: got no marines? Gg
Mine: you're too slow + unprepped? Gg
Now guess what is well designed and what is a stupid bo limitation? You are right, having to build robo for a possible 6:00 mine drop that could destroy a whole mineral line is a stupid bo limitation you don't have to. You can build an oracle, sac 1 worker per mine and then clean them up. Or you can build a forge and a canon per mineral line. Yep, get a forge and a cannon per mineral line at 6:00 without the option to scout if I play a standard macro game. That means putting cannons blind. The only way you can scout a terran base before 6:00 is going 1 base oracle which is easily scouted. No more MSC scout thx to vision nerf. The fastest allucination will arrive at terran base after 6:00 And oracle isn't a reliable form of detection as observer is, and then having to still build a robo because ht openings are dead makes the oracle a 300/300 observer as you can't use it to harrass anymore. So it's fine that Terran can't scout with Reapers because of stupid Blink All-in, and Terran has to open 6 Marines or risk death against Oracle, but a Protoss having to build two Cannons behind his impenetrable wall of MSC to be 100% safe is inhuman cruelty. I gotcha. You scout 1 base opening before MSC is even out and later on you can sacrifice a reaper and get the scout no matter what.You can't deny a whole scout of your base with just a MSC and a stalker. And just to let you know, a MSC and a stalker are way more expansive than 6 marines. Oh, but you were comparing 6 marine that you still would make while able to scout any early aggression to 2 completely blind cannons made on the assumption that the terran MAY be going for a mine drop. Or u may as well build a robo and go into the same build order from 2011. Unless the protoss base is well sim-citied and... that stargate could be proxied somewhere in the map along with the possiblity of twilight councils to DT shrines. A reaper scout DOES NOT guarantee that you'll see everything. Sometimes two reapers ain't enough. And just to let you know, that 1 MSC and stalker is all you need for the first 6 to 8 mins (or more) depending on how you contain the Terran say a single oracle or two. Theres no downside of putting down cannons for protoss. Nothing is slowed down because unlike WoL, your not having to sink minerals/gas in early gateways, sentries or w/e to hold off any early pushes coming your way thanks to... nexus cannon! .. As long as you can minimize or even shut down the 2 medivac timing, its all too easy for most protoss unless your a korean Terran pro. And no Protoss from my memory is using any builds from 2011. With the forst reaper scout you know if there are proxy on the map and easily find it.. and there is no way to deny that as you have no unit when the reaper gets into the base. Once scouted the 1 base play all you have to do is to stay on 1 base(lifting your cc from the natural eventually), build a turret in the mineral line and you are safe from DT or oracle or blink. And you can still scout the expansion. with the reaper. To contain the terran you need to spend the 300/300 for the oracle, not much different from getting extra gates and sentries. The benefit is that you get some harrass, but sill you'll have to build gates before even thinking of taking a 3rd And Colossi/blink double forge is so 2011, really it is. I am not talking about the specific build order the the main idea behind it that hasn't changed. Sure there may be a mine drop or an oracle harrass in the early-mid game but everyting else is just the same.
This is just not true. Yes, you are going to scout that there is a pylon missing (though I'm not 100% certain that a Protoss couldn't fake a normal third pylon and still proxy with a 15second delay) if it is the fastest possible proxy.
You are not however going to "easily find it". A proxy dark shrine and twilight can be anywhere. a proxy oracle can be deadly, even if it is only half map proxied. A proxy 3rd pylon to fake a proxy tech can be anywhere again.
It's very uncertain to find a hidden stargate before the first oracle finishes, by running your reaper all the way back and zickzacking half the map. To find a dark shrine, a twilight or just the fake out pylon on a 4player map you have to hugely luck out.
The only thing you can really find in time if you are looking for it is a proxy robo immortal bust, but for which you still have to play reaper to begin with.
Sorry, but what you are talking about is pure whining. You don't want to be forced into observer openings (which you probably aren't), but on the same page you pretend a reaper opening doesn't limit the Terran hugely and on top of that falsely overestimate its scouting power. Yes, if you do inbase stuff a good reaper player is going to find it. That's good. That's what the reaper was built for. All the outdoor proxy capabilites however still exist and cannot be ruled out that easily.
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Meanwhile, Terran can go for Widow Mine drops, Hellion drops, or Cloaked Banshees,
And protoss can also go for Tempests and Carrier openings.... What's your point by listing openings for terrans that sucks (besides mines).
If you don't know what your opponent is doing (but you do know they didn't FE) and you don't get detection/put units in position for harassment, you fucked up. This type of whining doesn't help the balance designers at all, because it is unjustified...
Protoss doens't lose to a terran player that goes Widow Mine drops unless his unit control sucks balls. This isn't about build-orders.
The difference between T and P is that protoss actually has openings that can kill the terran player (through all ins) as well as harass openings (DT, Oracle) while terran only has mine-drops basically. Each protoss opening requires a different response from the terran player while the protoss can do his stuff against w/e the terran is doing.
And Mine-openings are pretty easy to scout.
Both races have options to defend both harassment possibilities. Neither race is forced to go down a particular tech path because a Terran can open with either Mines or Marines or Turrets for defence,
Nonsense. A terran always has to get a critical amount of Marines out. Mines/turret can only help, but they cannot be the only AA in itself.
They can open Factory and have a Widow Mine positioned to deal with an Oracle. Once the timing has passed for an Oracle to move in,
This is big problem though. Terrans do this all the time, and it's basically conflipping becasue the protoss player can take advantage of this expected behavour and simply go in with Oracles later than the normal timing.
They can open Stargate and use an Oracle for detection. Once the timing has passed for a Widow Mine drop or a proxy Widow Mine to move in, those units can be re-positioned to deal with other threats. Cannons can be used as static defence/detection as well.
The difference here is that if you have no protection in your mineral line vs an Oracle then your going lose the whole fucking mineral line. A widow mine it self has limited damage potential. You can be caught offguard against Widow Mines and still be in a fine position.
Protoss can deflect scouting information using the MSC+Stalker combination (or proxy their tech) whereas Terran can deflect scouting with a Marine or a Reaper (or proxy their tech).
Your missing the point here. Protoss doesn't need to scout besides knowing whether terran goes gas first or not, and even that isn't really 100% neccesity anyway. Protoss can still do safe builds wihtout knowing what terran opens with.
Terran on the other hand, dies to a shitton of things if they guess wrong.
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EPT
