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On June 29 2014 21:56 Nezgar wrote:
It shocks me to see that this post was featured on the front page.
While the core of the message (Terran is struggling) is right, the tone of the article is nothing but poison to the community.
I already stopped posting in most threads because it was Terrans all over the place who flamed and hated and whined to no extend. This does not belong here and you should be ashamed of falling in line and keeping the tone of those 15-year kids spamming the twitch chat.
The editorial is not just biased, but also incorrect in many places.
There was a video that proved how the hellbat drop was NOT overpowered, yet it was a VOD from after they nerfed the hellbats. I don't see any videos where second rate terrans where winning with just dropping 4 hellbats per medivac into mineral lines or widowmines one-shotting every worker.
In fact, I don't see any attempts at looking at the issues at hand with a critical eye. I don't even feel like discussing the individual points that were made because it makes me sick to the stomach...
It is a hate-inducing piece of shoddy propaganda and should not have a place here at teamliquid.net!
The ladder already is a place of immature people flaming on every occasion, regardless of them winning or losing the game. And this just fuels the fire even more. Seriously: Your work is not appreciated and all your time wasted on this could have been spend in so many more meaningful ways.
So you are saying that the game is balanced and nothing is needed to investigate and this thread might make DK to nerf Protoss/Zerg and Buff Terran?
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i mean what do i say to this?
yes, you have some decent facts, for let's say 60% of the time i had a great time reading it.
the other 40% all i understood was "AVILO WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG GUYS".
funny is also that you state "terran has no agressive early game options", yet people like polt or bunny who try to pressure with like 8 marines, force a nexus cannon and then follow it up with something bigger have a good amount of success with it.
you use facts and videos mostly to emphasize your points, to me this does look like a very one sided article to write.
posts like these are what makes starcraft 2 and its community look like, i really don't want to say this word here, cause it's TL after all.
this is the biggest accumulation of QQ since huk's VLOG about "leave protoss alone". posts like these are what makes sc2 unenjoyable for me, personally. it allows people to unleash all their hate, and it doesn't do the community any good. i feel bad for sc2, even during the BL/Infestor era there was not that much support for QQ, i mean hell this is the front page of TL.
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toss here and i agree, i hope that terrans will be fixed soon.
but i fear that blizzard does not care, probably too busy with heartstone and heroes of the storm...
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Having said all that the bit about the hellbat nerfs made me laugh, I remember some pretty silly games with some pretty shocking builds used to attempt to counter them. I also remember some pretty lolzy justifications for them doing almost no damage, like that life vs fantasy game where he killed 3 drones, lost two medivacs with hellbats in them and the damage done early game (from making 2 spines and 2 extra queens) was apparently enough for 2 base hellbat to transition without being even slightly behind.
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posts like these are what makes sc2 unenjoyable for me
imo, what makes sc2 unenjoyable for me, is the reason why those post exist. Fix the game, fix terran, they'll be no more thread like that ( well ok, they will still exist some people to QQ, but a lot less. )
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Very accurate and lot of stuff i've said for the past year seems the author logic'd out himself as well.
Especially the points about blink all-ins, tvp early game, and the fact that HOTS Protoss has about 500-800 more vespene gas that they did not have in Wings of Liberty due to not having to build sentries and getting their "invincible MSC expansion" earlier which is a huge deal.
There is a pretty huge balance problem with the current game, pretty damn good editorial/article whatever people wanna call this piece of writing.
On June 29 2014 22:04 Undead1993 wrote:
i mean what do i say to this?
yes, you have some decent facts, for let's say 60% of the time i had a great time reading it.
the other 40% all i understood was "AVILO WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG GUYS".
funny is also that you state "terran has no agressive early game options", yet people like polt or bunny who try to pressure with like 8 marines, force a nexus cannon and then follow it up with something bigger have a good amount of success with it.
you use facts and videos mostly to emphasize your points, to me this does look like a very one sided article to write.
posts like these are what makes starcraft 2 and its community look like, i really don't want to say this word here, cause it's TL after all.
this is the biggest accumulation of QQ since huk's VLOG about "leave protoss alone". posts like these are what makes sc2 unenjoyable for me, personally. it allows people to unleash all their hate, and it doesn't do the community any good. i feel bad for sc2, even during the BL/Infestor era there was not that much support for QQ, i mean hell this is the front page of TL.
I have been right all along...it doesn't take a sage or wizardry to see what's been happening to SC2 for over the last year. It does take some huge balls to write/talk about it though otherwise the community gets their panties in a bunch and the e-sports illuminati will start bashing you for being toxic/whiner or whatever else they do @_@
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On June 29 2014 22:04 Undead1993 wrote:
i mean what do i say to this?
yes, you have some decent facts, for let's say 60% of the time i had a great time reading it.
the other 40% all i understood was "AVILO WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG GUYS".
funny is also that you state "terran has no agressive early game options", yet people like polt or bunny who try to pressure with like 8 marines, force a nexus cannon and then follow it up with something bigger have a good amount of success with it.
you use facts and videos mostly to emphasize your points, to me this does look like a very one sided article to write.
posts like these are what makes starcraft 2 and its community look like, i really don't want to say this word here, cause it's TL after all.
this is the biggest accumulation of QQ since huk's VLOG about "leave protoss alone". posts like these are what makes sc2 unenjoyable for me, personally. it allows people to unleash all their hate, and it doesn't do the community any good. i feel bad for sc2, even during the BL/Infestor era there was not that much support for QQ, i mean hell this is the front page of TL.
Did you miss that final edit regarding lings of liberty?
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Still reading, but what I've read so far is very well thought out and well reasoned.
For example,
This is why options, even if they are actually rarely used, are of utmost importance, because they can passively act as a weapon of deterrence for the other side.
is such a good articulation for a core strategic concept and explains the blink's impact on Terran in such clear terms.
Already looking forward to reading the rest!
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Here's the problem with this article:
In the beginning, the premise is that the game was balanced early-mid 2013. Hellbat and Widow Mine nerfs were unnecessary or at least too much; with no nerfs or only a small Hellbat nerf, the game would have naturally balanced. Statistics support this. Statistics also support that the nerfs directly caused the drop in Terran success.
But then, the article goes on to rant about Roaches, 3 hatch, Larva, MSC, Tempests, harass & static defense, Storms, Colossi, Warp Prism, Protoss all-ins and PvT control requirements.
So, if you were to restore Hellbats and Widow Mines into their previous strength, and the proceed to nerf everything mentioned in the latter half of the article, wouldn't Terran utterly dominate? And if the article isn't suggesting that those need to be nerfed, then what is the point in mentioning them? If the premise of the article was that the game was balanced in early-mid 2013 and that Protosses and Zergs were wrong to whine about Hellbats and 4M, why does the writer get to whine about everything Protoss and Zerg?
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On June 29 2014 21:57 Kosak wrote:
I hate these sort of articles so much, they just embrace the general hateful feeling towards the game and its balance when terrans have all the tools to win every freaking game just by outplaying the opponent
The problem with this game right now from the Terran perspective is that you have to be better by far than the Protoss player and by a decent amount (not by that much than the Protoss) than the Zerg player in order to win.
People like this don't realise how the game works, I don't even know how some people can't understand the game enough to know that Terran is underpowered and only wins when the player is much better than the let's say the Protoss player... When you see somebody like Taeja going undefeated is because he is by far better than the others he played... The issue comes when 2 players with equal skill battle each other: the Protoss wins for sure (I say Protoss because the race is much overpowered than Zerg). So this means that the results and the skill of the players aren't telling the truth ====> the game needs to be fixed.
A very good example of this is that a Protoss player doesn't have to worry nearly as much as the Terran from the all in-s: therefore the Terran player has to be more skilled to identify the All In and to answer PERFECTLY because the matchup is designed in a way that if you don't answer perfectly you lose as a Terran.
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Epic! Great post :D I enjoyed it quite a lot.
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On June 29 2014 22:07 avilo wrote:Very accurate and lot of stuff i've said for the past year seems the author logic'd out himself as well. Especially the points about blink all-ins, tvp early game, and the fact that HOTS Protoss has about 500-800 more vespene gas that they did not have in Wings of Liberty due to not having to build sentries and getting their "invincible MSC expansion" earlier which is a huge deal. There is a pretty huge balance problem with the current game, pretty damn good editorial/article whatever people wanna call this piece of writing. Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 22:04 Undead1993 wrote:
i mean what do i say to this?
yes, you have some decent facts, for let's say 60% of the time i had a great time reading it.
the other 40% all i understood was "AVILO WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG GUYS".
funny is also that you state "terran has no agressive early game options", yet people like polt or bunny who try to pressure with like 8 marines, force a nexus cannon and then follow it up with something bigger have a good amount of success with it.
you use facts and videos mostly to emphasize your points, to me this does look like a very one sided article to write.
posts like these are what makes starcraft 2 and its community look like, i really don't want to say this word here, cause it's TL after all.
this is the biggest accumulation of QQ since huk's VLOG about "leave protoss alone". posts like these are what makes sc2 unenjoyable for me, personally. it allows people to unleash all their hate, and it doesn't do the community any good. i feel bad for sc2, even during the BL/Infestor era there was not that much support for QQ, i mean hell this is the front page of TL. I have been right all along...it doesn't take a sage or wizardry to see what's been happening to SC2 for over the last year. It does take some huge balls to write/talk about it though otherwise the community gets their panties in a bunch and the e-sports illuminati will start bashing you for being toxic/whiner or whatever else they do @_@
The problem isn't that you speak about it, but HOW YOU DO IT.
Srsly i think you have some points, but how you articulate them most of the time is just bad and that is the biggest reason people bash and flame you for your opinions.
The sooner you understand that the better 
@topic: Honestly i didn't read it yet, i am a zerg player myself and have to agree with the general opinion though.
Sure, writing balance whines doesn't help, but i am still buffled by people saying everything is ok too.
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I don't really get the point of putting this much work into something obvious.
By now there is no fixing anything about terran even if everyone would agree with you.
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On June 29 2014 22:07 LDLCmiyako wrote:imo, what makes sc2 unenjoyable for me, is the reason why those post exist. Fix the game, fix terran, they'll be no more thread like that ( well ok, they will still exist some people to QQ, but a lot less. )
^this and when half TL is like "LOL there aint no problems inda game:DD learn to play scrubs:D" This happens every time when some race is doing worse than other like when terran was dominating in wol, infestor+broodlord was good, hellbats were good and now.
I'm sick of it. Used to watch every starcraft game no matter what race. Nowadays I only watch Marus games.
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On June 29 2014 22:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 22:07 avilo wrote:Very accurate and lot of stuff i've said for the past year seems the author logic'd out himself as well. Especially the points about blink all-ins, tvp early game, and the fact that HOTS Protoss has about 500-800 more vespene gas that they did not have in Wings of Liberty due to not having to build sentries and getting their "invincible MSC expansion" earlier which is a huge deal. There is a pretty huge balance problem with the current game, pretty damn good editorial/article whatever people wanna call this piece of writing. On June 29 2014 22:04 Undead1993 wrote:
i mean what do i say to this?
yes, you have some decent facts, for let's say 60% of the time i had a great time reading it.
the other 40% all i understood was "AVILO WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG GUYS".
funny is also that you state "terran has no agressive early game options", yet people like polt or bunny who try to pressure with like 8 marines, force a nexus cannon and then follow it up with something bigger have a good amount of success with it.
you use facts and videos mostly to emphasize your points, to me this does look like a very one sided article to write.
posts like these are what makes starcraft 2 and its community look like, i really don't want to say this word here, cause it's TL after all.
this is the biggest accumulation of QQ since huk's VLOG about "leave protoss alone". posts like these are what makes sc2 unenjoyable for me, personally. it allows people to unleash all their hate, and it doesn't do the community any good. i feel bad for sc2, even during the BL/Infestor era there was not that much support for QQ, i mean hell this is the front page of TL. I have been right all along...it doesn't take a sage or wizardry to see what's been happening to SC2 for over the last year. It does take some huge balls to write/talk about it though otherwise the community gets their panties in a bunch and the e-sports illuminati will start bashing you for being toxic/whiner or whatever else they do @_@ The problem isn't that you speak about it, but HOW YOU DO IT. Srsly i think you have some points, but how you articualte them most of the time is just bad and that is the biggest reason people bash and flame you for your opinions. The sooner you understand that the better @topic: Honestly i didn't read it yet, i am a zerg player myself and have to agree with the general opinion though. Sure, writing balance whines doesn't help, but i am still buffled by people saying everything is ok too.
I'll bring in my heart forever when he, on three bases, said that a Z was 6 base broodlord all-inning me.
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On June 29 2014 22:19 Darrkhan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 22:07 LDLCmiyako wrote:posts like these are what makes sc2 unenjoyable for me imo, what makes sc2 unenjoyable for me, is the reason why those post exist. Fix the game, fix terran, they'll be no more thread like that ( well ok, they will still exist some people to QQ, but a lot less. ) ^this and when half TL is like "LOL there aint no problems inda game:DD learn to play scrubs:D"
TL didn't ban balance whine because balance whine is wrong. TL banned it because it's unproductive and it creates a bad atmosphere. When you get banned, there's no special test to verify whether what you say is right or not.
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On June 29 2014 22:15 kiralykobra wrote:
The problem with this game right now from the Terran perspective is that you have to be better by far than the Protoss player
How many toss players will have to beat you in TvT for you to realize your claim is just whiny, avilo-esque bs? If you really think toss is that easy plz go play toss on ladder and see how high you get in 1v1 ladder. Even with a bit of practice, it definitely won't be higher than what you achieved as Terran. Remember SjoW thinking toss was so OP and thereby switching to Protoss? I hope you remember how successful that was. Oh wait, but with OP GOSU TERRAN MECHANICS he should've been automatically top 16 GM on the server, no? What went wrong, I thought toss was just 1A and freewin?
I watched avilo try a blink all-in as Protoss immediately after he lost to one in TvP, trying to prove a point. He lost the game and lost 20 points to the Terran who defended his attack. Gave me a good laugh
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Also no one every brings this up, but Terran hasn't won a single GSL since the queen buff. I guess technically Maru won the OSL, but a GOM run event... nope. Zero since the queen buff. INnoVation and Mvp both came close too T_T
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Good article, but the tone is...whiny. Quite whiny.
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To the dude who says "the problem with this article is that it says one thing is broken and then talks about a bunch of other things ...etc"
Are you honestly confused by why he's listing the cumulative attributes of a race that create imbalance?
No one or two mechanics make a matchup broken.. it is the culmination of all the options.
You could have left BL/infestor totally alone in WOL - remove the queen buff / reduce an early game option for zerg to bring it closer to balance without touching either "broken mechanic"
This article is a long time coming and very well done.. I love the reaction of some of you idiots though.. it's incredible.. even if this doesn't help blizzard realize how badly they screwed up it's totally worth it to get to see peoples delusions about how good they are at the game and how "terrans just need to man up" disappear at the foot of a long list of facts and games that actually happened. You can say what you want about his opinion of the games and the stats, but both the stats and the games are real.
The majority of you whining about this aren't even debating anything in the article with your own stats, your own games to illustrate your point.
All you are saying to anyone with a moderate IQ reading your words about "this is just toxic and untrue and bad for the community!!" is - "please no why did you do this.. I really had convinced myself I was that much better than my Terran opponents - this makes it seem like I possibly have an unfair advantage..I might actually have to come to grips with that now and get better at the game ;("
Thanks for putting this together.
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EPT
