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On June 29 2014 22:44 Picasso wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 22:30 kiralykobra wrote:On June 29 2014 22:24 Picasso wrote:On June 29 2014 22:15 kiralykobra wrote:
The problem with this game right now from the Terran perspective is that you have to be better by far than the Protoss player How many toss players will have to beat you in TvT in realize your claim is just bs? If you really think toss is that easy plz go play toss on ladder and see how high you get in 1v1 ladder. Even with a bit of practice, it definitely won't be higher than what you achieved as Terran. Remember SjoW thinking toss was so OP and thereby switching to Protoss? I hope you remember how successful that was. Oh wait, but with OP GOSU TERRAN MECHANICS he should've been automatically top 16 GM on the server, no? What went wrong, I thought toss was just 1A and freewin? hahaha SjoW is a bad player compared to other pros so it doesn't matter what he plays BUT I say that is he would have played Protoss from the beggining he would have reached better results, and no i know that Protoss isn't freewin and requires lot's of skill. Scarlett did beat DRG with Protoss at MLG now so i don't know why are you giving me exaples of switching races. BTW if a Terran and a Protoss switch race with identical skill and play a PvT with races switched the Protoss still wins.. I have tested this with my friend,master leauge both of us so yeah... Protoss is stronger than Terran no doubt One sample size: you and your friend. I'm sure that's statistically significant and I'm sure Protoss OP is the reasonable conclusion from your great experiment. Maybe you guys are naturally better at Protoss than at Terran? Do you really expect all three races to have the same potential for each player? And Scarlett just practiced one build - if she tried to play a macro game she would've been destroyed. Practicing one all-in is quite simple depending on the build, something like a 7gate requires much less practice than immortal/sentry, and 7gate happens to be a pretty easy build so she used it. She could've practiced just 11/11 and used it on a 2-player map, same stuff
Here is a good point about sample size which I will agree with.
Having said that, you also highlight a good point you probably didn't mean to.
Ask yourself, if she could have just practiced 11/11 and used it vs DRG why is it that you think she might not have?
Could it be that... DRG would have totally stomped her face off if she did that? That even Terrans with the best micro in the world will lose to a zerg trying 11/11 if its scouted out and a normal timed pool comes down??
The ease of which certain Protoss 2 based all ins can be executed is border-line stupid (Scarlett knows this as she has been knocked out of many tournaments via this". So while you are correct about her definitely losing to DRG in a macrogame with protoss, the end result is the same.. a victory. For more examples of this - see NA ladder up through GM mmr rofl.
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Now when TL's official headline article is this detailed analysis about Terran being underpowered, you know something very wrong has been going on for quite some time.
Terran needs much more than some small tweaks like the recent buffs to ghost energy, widow mine's anti-shield damage, and hellbat transformation. It needs something bigger that can make it (1) less dependent on the best of best micro to win games; and (2) can make its full spectrum of units useful in all matchups.
To the first point, I think it's obvious that Terran needs better micro to win games than Protoss and maybe Zerg. This has created some huge gap between the top Terrans and the other Terrans, more so than the other two races. I think such dependence on micro should be lessened to the degree of the other two races where pros who don't have world-top micro can still win games here and there, just like the other two races. One of the solution is obviously, to make mech better.
To the second point, I think right now Terran has the least number of units that are used in its matchups. In PvZ and PvT, Protoss uses most of its units. In ZvP and ZvT, Zerg also uses most of its units. But in TvP and TvZ, especially TvP, half of the Terran units are not used in most of the pro games. It gives Terran much less choices and give its opponents much more predictability, which can lead to its weakness in various ways. This is more of a problem in TvP's late game, where Protoss can utilize its tier-3 units like colossus, tempest, DT, etc effectively but Terran can only use its tier-1/2 units from early game to the late-late-game. And let's face it, except TvT, Terran's tier-3 units are pretty shit compare to Protoss and Zerg's. At last, if Terran can utilize its full arsenal, it will be more enjoyable to watch for the viewers as well.
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Canada8157 Posts
On June 29 2014 22:49 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 22:44 Picasso wrote:On June 29 2014 22:30 kiralykobra wrote:On June 29 2014 22:24 Picasso wrote:On June 29 2014 22:15 kiralykobra wrote:
The problem with this game right now from the Terran perspective is that you have to be better by far than the Protoss player How many toss players will have to beat you in TvT in realize your claim is just bs? If you really think toss is that easy plz go play toss on ladder and see how high you get in 1v1 ladder. Even with a bit of practice, it definitely won't be higher than what you achieved as Terran. Remember SjoW thinking toss was so OP and thereby switching to Protoss? I hope you remember how successful that was. Oh wait, but with OP GOSU TERRAN MECHANICS he should've been automatically top 16 GM on the server, no? What went wrong, I thought toss was just 1A and freewin? hahaha SjoW is a bad player compared to other pros so it doesn't matter what he plays BUT I say that is he would have played Protoss from the beggining he would have reached better results, and no i know that Protoss isn't freewin and requires lot's of skill. Scarlett did beat DRG with Protoss at MLG now so i don't know why are you giving me exaples of switching races. BTW if a Terran and a Protoss switch race with identical skill and play a PvT with races switched the Protoss still wins.. I have tested this with my friend,master leauge both of us so yeah... Protoss is stronger than Terran no doubt One sample size: you and your friend. I'm sure that's statistically significant and I'm sure Protoss OP is the reasonable conclusion from your great experiment. Maybe you guys are naturally better at Protoss than at Terran? Do you really expect all three races to have the same potential for each player? And Scarlett just practiced one build - if she tried to play a macro game she would've been destroyed. Practicing one all-in is quite simple depending on the build, something like a 7gate requires much less practice than immortal/sentry, and 7gate happens to be a pretty easy build so she used it. She could've practiced just 11/11 and used it on a 2-player map, same stuff Here is a good point about sample size which I will agree with. Having said that, you also highlight a good point you probably didn't mean to. Ask yourself, if she could have just practiced 11/11 and used it vs DRG why is it that you think she might not have? Could it be that... DRG would have totally stomped her face off if she did that? That even Terrans with the best micro in the world will lose to a zerg trying 11/11 if its scouted out and a normal timed pool comes down?? The ease of which certain Protoss 2 based all ins can be executed is border-line stupid (Scarlett knows this as she has been knocked out of many tournaments via this". So while you are correct about her definitely losing to DRG in a macrogame with protoss, the end result is the same.. a victory. For more examples of this - see NA ladder up through GM mmr rofl.
11/11 is very map dependant, and you just can't do it on Frost. In terms of executability, the 11/11 and 7 gate are probably the same in difficulty; they both require unit micro, some positioning and the only difference really is when they hit.
Who knows why she chose the 7 gate over something else? Maybe because you can do it on any map, maybe because she hangs out with more Protoss players than terran players
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as others have already stated, you have some points but the way you try to back them up by basically shitting all over great players like SoO and your insane onesided balanceclaims makes the article toxic and disgusting.
I know TL is a private forum and if I dont like it I should get out blablabla nevertheless this article and the fact that its featured makes me question my beliefs of TL as a friendly site with integrity and professionalism where players can talk about the game they love so much.
TL;DR Screw you OP for encouraging balance whining/raging/crying on this awesome website and if it was possible I would report your post.
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On June 29 2014 22:41 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 22:37 Karpfen wrote:On June 29 2014 22:26 DomeGetta wrote:
To the dude who says "the problem with this article is that it says one thing is broken and then talks about a bunch of other things ...etc"
Are you honestly confused by why he's listing the cumulative attributes of a race that create imbalance?
No one or two mechanics make a matchup broken.. it is the culmination of all the options.
You could have left BL/infestor totally alone in WOL - remove the queen buff / reduce an early game option for zerg to bring it closer to balance without touching either "broken mechanic"
This article is a long time coming and very well done.. I love the reaction of some of you idiots though.. it's incredible.. even if this doesn't help blizzard realize how badly they screwed up it's totally worth it to get to see peoples delusions about how good they are at the game and how "terrans just need to man up" disappear at the foot of a long list of facts and games that actually happened. You can say what you want about his opinion of the games and the stats, but both the stats and the games are real.
The majority of you whining about this aren't even debating anything in the article with your own stats, your own games to illustrate your point.
All you are saying to anyone with a moderate IQ reading your words about "this is just toxic and untrue and bad for the community!!" is - "please no why did you do this.. I really had convinced myself I was that much better than my Terran opponents - this makes it seem like I possibly have an unfair advantage..I might actually have to come to grips with that now and get better at the game ;("
Thanks for putting this together. Strawman harder. People are mostly agreeing with the general idea disliking the childish way that is used to explain it. You can't go around shitting on players like soo and others simply because they aren't T. You can't say hellbat drops were ok vs Z and P. I do agree the mine nerf should have been either way smaller or not done at all but what is there to go around calling every non T player a scrub? The same type of stats he uses to prove his point show that T was OP when he had both broken hellbats and mines (again, I'd revert the change to how they were during that time, they were ok but not coupled with hellbats..). But that is dismissed as Z and P only having to adapt...... now adapt to mass muta vs T, adapt to tanks being bad, adapt to immortals beating tanks, adapt to protoss having many different openings, adapt to P defending with MSC alone.... you see my point. Like I said before, you can say what you want about his opinion of the games and the stats.. but you know damn well that is not the reason people are raging out about this.. if this was a thread full of jabs and digs at pro players who are obviously sick at the game and had no overwhelming facts pointing to imbalance the rage would have never showed up here.. it's the fact that some people can't handle the truth and that ignorance is bliss.. so the pretense of "BM post! Whiny post! Disrespect post!" all come out when the real shouting in the hater brain is saying "Fuck all! This shit makes my race seem imba.."
That's your interpretation of it. From what I read it's motly not that. Keep in mind that with this post I am not showing any hate towards people with black hair and green eyes.
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On June 29 2014 22:35 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 22:33 Nezgar wrote:On June 29 2014 21:59 TheScriptan wrote:On June 29 2014 21:56 Nezgar wrote:
*snip* So you are saying that the game is balanced and nothing is needed to investigate and this thread might make DK to nerf Protoss/Zerg and Buff Terran? You did read my post, didn't you? I specifically stated that there are issues with Terran that need to be addressed. In fact, that was the only thing I said about the balance of the game and about nerfing, buffing or waving your dick in other peoples faces. The tone and the purpose of that article is what I question, because it leads to even more witch-hunting and balance whine. We already have more than enough of that at teamliquid.net, thank you. If I want more of it, I'd visit the twitch chat... If you don't like what the facts highlight then don't read them.. "let's please censor this because it makes me sad". "Based on this we'll get "WITCHHUNTING" and possibly "BALANCE PATCHES THAT MIGHT FIX THE GAME!?" Mind blown.
You have terrible logic as well. If a post like this is glaringly in the front of TL, obviously a lot of people are going to read it. We have no problem not reading an article like this more than once; in fact, I probably will never read through this gibberish again. But the fact that a post like this that inevitably gets everyone in TL's attention is held up as completely legitimate (some points are valid, but the overall tone and distortion of facts in the writer's favor is disgusting) is extremely inappropriate. TheDwf or whoever the author is does not have an objective assessment of other perspectives but this post glares to everyone as if it is an objective piece of documentation
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On June 29 2014 22:49 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 22:44 Picasso wrote:On June 29 2014 22:30 kiralykobra wrote:On June 29 2014 22:24 Picasso wrote:On June 29 2014 22:15 kiralykobra wrote:
The problem with this game right now from the Terran perspective is that you have to be better by far than the Protoss player How many toss players will have to beat you in TvT in realize your claim is just bs? If you really think toss is that easy plz go play toss on ladder and see how high you get in 1v1 ladder. Even with a bit of practice, it definitely won't be higher than what you achieved as Terran. Remember SjoW thinking toss was so OP and thereby switching to Protoss? I hope you remember how successful that was. Oh wait, but with OP GOSU TERRAN MECHANICS he should've been automatically top 16 GM on the server, no? What went wrong, I thought toss was just 1A and freewin? hahaha SjoW is a bad player compared to other pros so it doesn't matter what he plays BUT I say that is he would have played Protoss from the beggining he would have reached better results, and no i know that Protoss isn't freewin and requires lot's of skill. Scarlett did beat DRG with Protoss at MLG now so i don't know why are you giving me exaples of switching races. BTW if a Terran and a Protoss switch race with identical skill and play a PvT with races switched the Protoss still wins.. I have tested this with my friend,master leauge both of us so yeah... Protoss is stronger than Terran no doubt One sample size: you and your friend. I'm sure that's statistically significant and I'm sure Protoss OP is the reasonable conclusion from your great experiment. Maybe you guys are naturally better at Protoss than at Terran? Do you really expect all three races to have the same potential for each player? And Scarlett just practiced one build - if she tried to play a macro game she would've been destroyed. Practicing one all-in is quite simple depending on the build, something like a 7gate requires much less practice than immortal/sentry, and 7gate happens to be a pretty easy build so she used it. She could've practiced just 11/11 and used it on a 2-player map, same stuff Here is a good point about sample size which I will agree with. Having said that, you also highlight a good point you probably didn't mean to. Ask yourself, if she could have just practiced 11/11 and used it vs DRG why is it that you think she might not have? Could it be that... DRG would have totally stomped her face off if she did that? That even Terrans with the best micro in the world will lose to a zerg trying 11/11 if its scouted out and a normal timed pool comes down?? The ease of which certain Protoss 2 based all ins can be executed is border-line stupid (Scarlett knows this as she has been knocked out of many tournaments via this". So while you are correct about her definitely losing to DRG in a macrogame with protoss, the end result is the same.. a victory. For more examples of this - see NA ladder up through GM mmr rofl.
11/11 me on frost, see what happens.
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On June 29 2014 22:55 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 22:49 DomeGetta wrote:On June 29 2014 22:44 Picasso wrote:On June 29 2014 22:30 kiralykobra wrote:On June 29 2014 22:24 Picasso wrote:On June 29 2014 22:15 kiralykobra wrote:
The problem with this game right now from the Terran perspective is that you have to be better by far than the Protoss player How many toss players will have to beat you in TvT in realize your claim is just bs? If you really think toss is that easy plz go play toss on ladder and see how high you get in 1v1 ladder. Even with a bit of practice, it definitely won't be higher than what you achieved as Terran. Remember SjoW thinking toss was so OP and thereby switching to Protoss? I hope you remember how successful that was. Oh wait, but with OP GOSU TERRAN MECHANICS he should've been automatically top 16 GM on the server, no? What went wrong, I thought toss was just 1A and freewin? hahaha SjoW is a bad player compared to other pros so it doesn't matter what he plays BUT I say that is he would have played Protoss from the beggining he would have reached better results, and no i know that Protoss isn't freewin and requires lot's of skill. Scarlett did beat DRG with Protoss at MLG now so i don't know why are you giving me exaples of switching races. BTW if a Terran and a Protoss switch race with identical skill and play a PvT with races switched the Protoss still wins.. I have tested this with my friend,master leauge both of us so yeah... Protoss is stronger than Terran no doubt One sample size: you and your friend. I'm sure that's statistically significant and I'm sure Protoss OP is the reasonable conclusion from your great experiment. Maybe you guys are naturally better at Protoss than at Terran? Do you really expect all three races to have the same potential for each player? And Scarlett just practiced one build - if she tried to play a macro game she would've been destroyed. Practicing one all-in is quite simple depending on the build, something like a 7gate requires much less practice than immortal/sentry, and 7gate happens to be a pretty easy build so she used it. She could've practiced just 11/11 and used it on a 2-player map, same stuff Here is a good point about sample size which I will agree with. Having said that, you also highlight a good point you probably didn't mean to. Ask yourself, if she could have just practiced 11/11 and used it vs DRG why is it that you think she might not have? Could it be that... DRG would have totally stomped her face off if she did that? That even Terrans with the best micro in the world will lose to a zerg trying 11/11 if its scouted out and a normal timed pool comes down?? The ease of which certain Protoss 2 based all ins can be executed is border-line stupid (Scarlett knows this as she has been knocked out of many tournaments via this". So while you are correct about her definitely losing to DRG in a macrogame with protoss, the end result is the same.. a victory. For more examples of this - see NA ladder up through GM mmr rofl. 11/11 me on frost, see what happens.
11/11 kinda doesnt work when you know 100% its coming 
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Very impressive article with tons of sources and examples. Your time and effort in creating this is appreciated DYF!
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Canada8157 Posts
On June 29 2014 22:53 NEEDZMOAR wrote:+ Show Spoiler +as others have already stated, you have some points but the way you try to back them up by basically shitting all over great players like SoO and your insane onesided balanceclaims makes the article toxic and disgusting.
I know TL is a private forum and if I dont like it I should get out blablabla nevertheless this article and the fact that its featured makes me question my beliefs of TL as a friendly site with integrity and professionalism where players can talk about the game they love so much.
TL;DR Screw you OP for encouraging balance whining/raging/crying on this awesome website and it it was possible I would report your post.
Shitting on soO how? He actually praised him
+ Show Spoiler +After all, at the Homestory Cup or Dreamhack, the likes of soO, Soulkey, herO or Zest are not there.
Sure he poked him for a-moving ultras off creep, but that isn't directed towards soO, rather at the unit composition. Replace his name with any other zerg, or just the race, and it still would be the same outcome
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the last patch come in the middle of the session so it could not had the impact that deserved. in wcs 3 there gonna be more terrans
disappointing to see TL doing balance whine at this level.
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On June 29 2014 22:49 larse wrote:
Now when TL's official headline article is this detailed analysis about Terran being underpowered, you know something very wrong has been going on for quite some time.
Something is wrong, the first page article is a detailed analysis about an small imbalance that was adressed in the last patches, with unclear results...
Terran needs much more than some small tweaks like the recent buffs to ghost energy, widow mine's anti-shield damage, and hellbat transformation. It needs something bigger that can make it (1) less dependent on the best of best micro to win games; and (2) can make its full spectrum of units useful in all matchups.
To the first point, I think it's obvious that Terran needs better micro to win games than Protoss and maybe Zerg. This has created some huge gap between the top Terrans and the other Terrans, more so than the other two races. I think such dependence on micro should be lessened to the degree of the other two races where pros who don't have world-top micro can still win games here and there, just like the other two races. One of the solution is obviously, to make mech better.
Basically dumbing down the race that people pick because its micro intensive...
To the second point, I think right now Terran has the least number of units that are used in its matchups. In PvZ and PvT, Protoss uses most of its units. In ZvP and ZvT, Zerg also uses most of its units. But in TvP and TvZ, especially TvP, half of the Terran units are not used in most of the pro games. It gives Terran much less choices and give its opponents much more predictability, which can lead to its weakness in various ways. This is more of a problem in TvP's late game, where Protoss can utilize its tier-3 units like colossus, tempest, DT, etc effectively but Terran can only use its tier-1/2 units from early game to the late-late-game. And let's face it, except TvT, Terran's tier-3 units are pretty shit compare to Protoss and Zerg's. At last, if Terran can utilize its full arsenal, it will be more enjoyable to watch for the viewers as well.
Its not a balance issue, its the game design (mech vs toss and SH vs bio sucks, buff those and they get broken in other matchups), so i say deal with it. If you want a diverse army composition with multiple possibilities, just play protoss, no balance patch will change this. If you like marine micro, play terran.
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On June 29 2014 22:54 Picasso wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 22:35 DomeGetta wrote:On June 29 2014 22:33 Nezgar wrote:On June 29 2014 21:59 TheScriptan wrote:On June 29 2014 21:56 Nezgar wrote:
*snip* So you are saying that the game is balanced and nothing is needed to investigate and this thread might make DK to nerf Protoss/Zerg and Buff Terran? You did read my post, didn't you? I specifically stated that there are issues with Terran that need to be addressed. In fact, that was the only thing I said about the balance of the game and about nerfing, buffing or waving your dick in other peoples faces. The tone and the purpose of that article is what I question, because it leads to even more witch-hunting and balance whine. We already have more than enough of that at teamliquid.net, thank you. If I want more of it, I'd visit the twitch chat... If you don't like what the facts highlight then don't read them.. "let's please censor this because it makes me sad". "Based on this we'll get "WITCHHUNTING" and possibly "BALANCE PATCHES THAT MIGHT FIX THE GAME!?" Mind blown. You have terrible logic as well. If a post like this is glaringly in the front of TL, obviously a lot of people are going to read it. We have no problem not reading an article like this more than once; in fact, I probably will never read through this gibberish again. But the fact that a post like this that inevitably gets everyone in TL's attention is held up as completely legitimate (some points are valid, but the overall tone and distortion of facts in the writer's favor is disgusting) is extremely inappropriate. TheDwf or whoever the author is does not have an objective assessment of other perspectives but this post glares to everyone as if it is an objective piece of documentation
I would be totally OK with your objection about it if you sited something even remotely specific that you are pissed off about - I equally dislike the propagation of misinformation as fact .. What you have said here, however, "overall tone and distortion of facts is disgusting" is way too vague and shouts hand-waving.. Again please stay off the "tone" the "tone" is very subjective - don't forget you are reading not listening you have no idea what "tone" he is using...to one person his highlight of soO a-moving off creep is bashing him.. while to me it says he did exactly the correct thing in that situation as most pro's do which is to abuse the mechanic and adv you have..whether its imbalanced or not.
What facts are distorted?
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1032 Posts
I agree with quite a lot of things, but not everything. You can't just prove a point by selecting few games. Maybe all the Maru, Bomber, Polt, inno's of this world aren't the best players around.
Oh, and i'm a bit tired by the "Terran requires the most". Zerg with injects, creep, bane split etc. takes a lot to be played effectively, at least in ZvT
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After all these Zerg and Protoss articles, it's nice to see a Terran article for a change. Hopefully this will open some eyes. All the Zerg and Protoss players are going to flock here and deny all of this lol. Honestly I don't know what you guys need. Do you need Terran players to just stop playing the game, have 16 Protoss and 16 Zergs in Ro32, have 80% win rates in XvT?? Is that what you need before saying, "Oh wait a minute, Terran might be weak and harder to play than the other races".
The reason people go "rofl protoss amove race derp derp" is because even when articles like these are written, with data, people still don't face the facts. So what's the point of writing several paragraphs if people can't accept overwhelming data? No serious person is saying that Protoss and Zerg are easy mode races, they still require a lot of skill, but Terran is simply more demanding and harder to play.
In the end, I think this won't change, it all comes down to game design, not balance. Blizzard isn't going to drastically change certain game mechanics such as warpgate, forcefield, the way the economy works, etc... All they will do is add a few units in LotV, possibly making the game more silly, and tweak damage/hp/armor of units.
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On June 29 2014 22:52 Jer99 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 22:49 DomeGetta wrote:On June 29 2014 22:44 Picasso wrote:On June 29 2014 22:30 kiralykobra wrote:On June 29 2014 22:24 Picasso wrote:On June 29 2014 22:15 kiralykobra wrote:
The problem with this game right now from the Terran perspective is that you have to be better by far than the Protoss player How many toss players will have to beat you in TvT in realize your claim is just bs? If you really think toss is that easy plz go play toss on ladder and see how high you get in 1v1 ladder. Even with a bit of practice, it definitely won't be higher than what you achieved as Terran. Remember SjoW thinking toss was so OP and thereby switching to Protoss? I hope you remember how successful that was. Oh wait, but with OP GOSU TERRAN MECHANICS he should've been automatically top 16 GM on the server, no? What went wrong, I thought toss was just 1A and freewin? hahaha SjoW is a bad player compared to other pros so it doesn't matter what he plays BUT I say that is he would have played Protoss from the beggining he would have reached better results, and no i know that Protoss isn't freewin and requires lot's of skill. Scarlett did beat DRG with Protoss at MLG now so i don't know why are you giving me exaples of switching races. BTW if a Terran and a Protoss switch race with identical skill and play a PvT with races switched the Protoss still wins.. I have tested this with my friend,master leauge both of us so yeah... Protoss is stronger than Terran no doubt One sample size: you and your friend. I'm sure that's statistically significant and I'm sure Protoss OP is the reasonable conclusion from your great experiment. Maybe you guys are naturally better at Protoss than at Terran? Do you really expect all three races to have the same potential for each player? And Scarlett just practiced one build - if she tried to play a macro game she would've been destroyed. Practicing one all-in is quite simple depending on the build, something like a 7gate requires much less practice than immortal/sentry, and 7gate happens to be a pretty easy build so she used it. She could've practiced just 11/11 and used it on a 2-player map, same stuff Here is a good point about sample size which I will agree with. Having said that, you also highlight a good point you probably didn't mean to. Ask yourself, if she could have just practiced 11/11 and used it vs DRG why is it that you think she might not have? Could it be that... DRG would have totally stomped her face off if she did that? That even Terrans with the best micro in the world will lose to a zerg trying 11/11 if its scouted out and a normal timed pool comes down?? The ease of which certain Protoss 2 based all ins can be executed is border-line stupid (Scarlett knows this as she has been knocked out of many tournaments via this". So while you are correct about her definitely losing to DRG in a macrogame with protoss, the end result is the same.. a victory. For more examples of this - see NA ladder up through GM mmr rofl. 11/11 is very map dependant, and you just can't do it on Frost. In terms of executability, the 11/11 and 7 gate are probably the same in difficulty; they both require unit micro, some positioning and the only difference really is when they hit. Who knows why she chose the 7 gate over something else? Maybe because you can do it on any map, maybe because she hangs out with more Protoss players than terran players
I don't agree here.. she played plenty of zvz's and plenty of them were not on frost.. she had ample opportunity to "go T and yolo 11/11". This is kind of a moot argument however unless Scarlett was to show up on this post and explain lol.
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Surely balancing the game so that Terran has a possibility to win will improve the game and its appeal to players/viewers. No one wants the days of GomTvT or Lings of Liberty, or Blink and You Win back. Looking at the race spread of premier/major tournament winners is utterly disgusting and should shame David Kim and the balance team.
Unfortunately Blizz's attempts at balancing often makes things worse. For example reaper scouting is pretty dead since the attempt to fix blink, the transformation servos change has had no effect and now we will have to wait months while Blizz says 'lets give it time ....'. I do not hold out much hope for any real, meaningful change and Protoss may get stronger with LotV.
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On June 29 2014 22:52 Jer99 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 22:49 DomeGetta wrote:On June 29 2014 22:44 Picasso wrote:On June 29 2014 22:30 kiralykobra wrote:On June 29 2014 22:24 Picasso wrote:On June 29 2014 22:15 kiralykobra wrote:
The problem with this game right now from the Terran perspective is that you have to be better by far than the Protoss player How many toss players will have to beat you in TvT in realize your claim is just bs? If you really think toss is that easy plz go play toss on ladder and see how high you get in 1v1 ladder. Even with a bit of practice, it definitely won't be higher than what you achieved as Terran. Remember SjoW thinking toss was so OP and thereby switching to Protoss? I hope you remember how successful that was. Oh wait, but with OP GOSU TERRAN MECHANICS he should've been automatically top 16 GM on the server, no? What went wrong, I thought toss was just 1A and freewin? hahaha SjoW is a bad player compared to other pros so it doesn't matter what he plays BUT I say that is he would have played Protoss from the beggining he would have reached better results, and no i know that Protoss isn't freewin and requires lot's of skill. Scarlett did beat DRG with Protoss at MLG now so i don't know why are you giving me exaples of switching races. BTW if a Terran and a Protoss switch race with identical skill and play a PvT with races switched the Protoss still wins.. I have tested this with my friend,master leauge both of us so yeah... Protoss is stronger than Terran no doubt One sample size: you and your friend. I'm sure that's statistically significant and I'm sure Protoss OP is the reasonable conclusion from your great experiment. Maybe you guys are naturally better at Protoss than at Terran? Do you really expect all three races to have the same potential for each player? And Scarlett just practiced one build - if she tried to play a macro game she would've been destroyed. Practicing one all-in is quite simple depending on the build, something like a 7gate requires much less practice than immortal/sentry, and 7gate happens to be a pretty easy build so she used it. She could've practiced just 11/11 and used it on a 2-player map, same stuff Here is a good point about sample size which I will agree with. Having said that, you also highlight a good point you probably didn't mean to. Ask yourself, if she could have just practiced 11/11 and used it vs DRG why is it that you think she might not have? Could it be that... DRG would have totally stomped her face off if she did that? That even Terrans with the best micro in the world will lose to a zerg trying 11/11 if its scouted out and a normal timed pool comes down?? The ease of which certain Protoss 2 based all ins can be executed is border-line stupid (Scarlett knows this as she has been knocked out of many tournaments via this". So while you are correct about her definitely losing to DRG in a macrogame with protoss, the end result is the same.. a victory. For more examples of this - see NA ladder up through GM mmr rofl. 11/11 is very map dependant, and you just can't do it on Frost. In terms of executability, the 11/11 and 7 gate are probably the same in difficulty; they both require unit micro, some positioning and the only difference really is when they hit. Who knows why she chose the 7 gate over something else? Maybe because you can do it on any map, maybe because she hangs out with more Protoss players than terran players
TBH 11/11 is not that bad in Frost. OFC not optimal build but zergs tend to play more greedy in bigger maps so if you 11/11 to the correct side vertically and horizontally (dont even need to be to make it work) zerg won't scout the build in a while because how slow overlords are and they can't see proxy that map (and zergs rarely scout with drone, especially that map) so terran has quite good shot at winning.
Also I'm pretty sure Scarlett knows terran better, it shows in her playstyle and also she has MMA and Innovation as team mates and probably she has seen and played against multiple terran builds and innovating builds.
Not saying by any means that 7 gate > 11/11. Haven't seen the build in very long time and haven't seen that Scarlett vs DRG game but the problem is that protoss and zerg players have more builds to use. Terran is more one trick pony, there is no such thing as thor rush and early gimmicky attacks like siege tank pushes are very questionnable because mothership cannon tends to shut them down.
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On June 29 2014 22:57 Enigmasc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 22:55 Karpfen wrote:On June 29 2014 22:49 DomeGetta wrote:On June 29 2014 22:44 Picasso wrote:On June 29 2014 22:30 kiralykobra wrote:On June 29 2014 22:24 Picasso wrote:On June 29 2014 22:15 kiralykobra wrote:
The problem with this game right now from the Terran perspective is that you have to be better by far than the Protoss player How many toss players will have to beat you in TvT in realize your claim is just bs? If you really think toss is that easy plz go play toss on ladder and see how high you get in 1v1 ladder. Even with a bit of practice, it definitely won't be higher than what you achieved as Terran. Remember SjoW thinking toss was so OP and thereby switching to Protoss? I hope you remember how successful that was. Oh wait, but with OP GOSU TERRAN MECHANICS he should've been automatically top 16 GM on the server, no? What went wrong, I thought toss was just 1A and freewin? hahaha SjoW is a bad player compared to other pros so it doesn't matter what he plays BUT I say that is he would have played Protoss from the beggining he would have reached better results, and no i know that Protoss isn't freewin and requires lot's of skill. Scarlett did beat DRG with Protoss at MLG now so i don't know why are you giving me exaples of switching races. BTW if a Terran and a Protoss switch race with identical skill and play a PvT with races switched the Protoss still wins.. I have tested this with my friend,master leauge both of us so yeah... Protoss is stronger than Terran no doubt One sample size: you and your friend. I'm sure that's statistically significant and I'm sure Protoss OP is the reasonable conclusion from your great experiment. Maybe you guys are naturally better at Protoss than at Terran? Do you really expect all three races to have the same potential for each player? And Scarlett just practiced one build - if she tried to play a macro game she would've been destroyed. Practicing one all-in is quite simple depending on the build, something like a 7gate requires much less practice than immortal/sentry, and 7gate happens to be a pretty easy build so she used it. She could've practiced just 11/11 and used it on a 2-player map, same stuff Here is a good point about sample size which I will agree with. Having said that, you also highlight a good point you probably didn't mean to. Ask yourself, if she could have just practiced 11/11 and used it vs DRG why is it that you think she might not have? Could it be that... DRG would have totally stomped her face off if she did that? That even Terrans with the best micro in the world will lose to a zerg trying 11/11 if its scouted out and a normal timed pool comes down?? The ease of which certain Protoss 2 based all ins can be executed is border-line stupid (Scarlett knows this as she has been knocked out of many tournaments via this". So while you are correct about her definitely losing to DRG in a macrogame with protoss, the end result is the same.. a victory. For more examples of this - see NA ladder up through GM mmr rofl. 11/11 me on frost, see what happens. 11/11 kinda doesnt work when you know 100% its coming
It also kinda doesnt work on 4 player maps. HUH
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Biased terran player here. Loved the article, it put my frustrations into words. It's true that the article exaggerates things and is generally quite negative in its stance, but I think it is intentionally over the top to generate a lot of discussion.
Say what you will about the piece but there are legit points and you can see that the only terrans who win these days are the same ones that won stuff years ago.
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EPT
