|
On April 08 2014 05:27 Zealously wrote:
How come so few people watched Shoutcraft? I mean, surely American-only competition should at least break 40k viewers given that so many people are adamant that it's what the scene needs, right?
this is the thing that drives me nuts about this debate. shoutcraft is all well and good, despite having a couple of issues it was probably the best attempt anyone has put forth to make the NA-only thing work. and it's fine that there are people in the scene who want shoutcraft and similar tournaments to work and be successful. that's fine.
what's not fine is the attitude i constantly see from people who are heavily pro-foreigner/anti-korean (in terms of what they want to watch). i've literally seen people blame other fans in the scene for not trying hard enough to support foreigners. what? if i like watching koreans and i'm fine with watching koreans, why is it my responsibility to support foreigners just because a vocal minority REALLY REALLY wants to see north american players develop? honestly, as someone who is completely fine with watching both korean and foreign competition, people give off the impression that i'm doing something wrong or bad by having my own personal viewing preferences and not demanding changes from blizzard when i think the system is fine already.
i just think that a lot of people on the pro-foreigner side of the debates could do with a reality check about the fact that what they want doesn't have to be what everyone wants and isn't somehow morally superior
|
Bomber and Polt tvt finals, Taeja tvt is weakest and bomber is known for his strong tvt. overall i say bomber wins wcs america
|
Please keep the Koreans in Korea.
|
TaeJa about to be 12-0 in last 12 games versus HyuN
|
On April 08 2014 05:18 Waise wrote:
this conversation is exactly the same every time. it never changes.
the bottom line is that people want a magical world where if you force enough americans into a tournament they'll start beating koreans. or they want an all-american tournament, but then somehow when all-american tournaments happen outside of WCS no one watches and the production is shitty because everyone knows no one is going to watch so why would they put money into that?
i can't believe this same exact conversation is still happening every single time
Well, that I think, is mixing all sorts of feelings into one general complainer.
1. Growing a solid AM scene will require some serious investments in the AM scene to begin with. Part of this is obviously well produced events on a continuous basis, and not just one off happenings ever 2nd year or so. How about a continental league or national leagues for example? Hey, it could be like WCS AM you know, but with like Canadians, Brazilians, Mexicans and Americans instead of Koreans...! What a novel idea!
2. Not growing an AM scene is probably best done by having shitty production of the only regular events there are, and on top of that, allowing a bunch of players, who never ever practice on the AM ladder, to drop in the AM main, grab all the price money that is offered in the entire double continent, and fly out again asap to continue to practice in Korea.
Ok, so now ESL is taking over the production for this year, which seems like a really good thing. They have done a marvelous job with WCS EU so far imo. I hope it is in their business strategy to build a big interest in the WCS AM all the way from the Canadian polar regions down to the Strait of Magellan. Of course, this will take some time obviously, but I can wait. It is not like the work has to start from scratch in any case, there are good players in NA already. I really enjoyed watching puCK for example in the Bo16, and he was one map away from winning his group. 
|
On April 08 2014 05:42 BaneRiders wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 05:18 Waise wrote:
this conversation is exactly the same every time. it never changes.
the bottom line is that people want a magical world where if you force enough americans into a tournament they'll start beating koreans. or they want an all-american tournament, but then somehow when all-american tournaments happen outside of WCS no one watches and the production is shitty because everyone knows no one is going to watch so why would they put money into that?
i can't believe this same exact conversation is still happening every single time
Well, that I think, is mixing all sorts of feelings into one general complainer. 1. Growing a solid AM scene will require some serious investments in the AM scene to begin with. Part of this is obviously well produced events on a continuous basis, and not just one off happenings ever 2nd year or so. How about a continental league or national leagues for example? Hey, it could be like WCS AM you know, but with like Canadians, Brazilians, Mexicans and Americans instead of Koreans...! What a novel idea! 2. Not growing an AM scene is probably best done by having shitty production of the only regular events there are, and on top of that, allowing a bunch of players, who never ever practice on the AM ladder, to drop in the AM main, grab all the price money that is offered in the entire double continent, and fly out again asap to continue to practice in Korea. Ok, so now ESL is taking over the production for this year, which seems like a really good thing. They have done a marvelous job with WCS EU so far imo. I hope it is in their business strategy to build a big interest in the WCS AM all the way from the Canadian polar regions down to the Strait of Magellan. Of course, this will take some time obviously, but I can wait. It is not like the work has to start from scratch in any case, there are good players in NA already. I really enjoyed watching puCK for example in the Bo16, and he was one map away from winning his group.
but what's the motivation to keep "growing the scene" if the viewership isn't there? TB pretty much threw his entire weight into shoutcraft and he openly admitted it wasn't really as successful as it needed to be, isn't that why it ended up being scaled down?
your points about investing in the scene have been made a thousand times over, and they are valid, but esports is an entertainment industry. people are only going to go so far to develop local talent if the money and the viewers aren't cutting it. passion projects are nice and all but they have a tendency to fold easily. to me it's simple cause and effect that WCS, GSL etc continue to succeed because they're what people are willing to watch. what other explanation is there, unless you want to go the conspiracy route and say that blizzard is trying to brainwash us into liking koreans or something?
your theories are fine, it's just who is going to do it? you? me? totalbiscuit? my complaint is about the attitude of entitlement. so many people seem to be saying "wah wah, i want to see americans, someone make an american tournament for me!" without any realistic perspective on what it takes to successfully produce such a tournament
|
my only real gripe with the ppl who qualified is with arthur. he just force fielded the ramp. i normally don't mind cheese but for some reason his smug and mousy expression after robbing chinese hero toodming from a victory with utter bs made me a huge anti-fan. arthur's wins were gross AND apparently he whines a lot on twitter too. while duckdeoks manly tears were enough to win me over, i think arthur's tears would just be annoying
as for NA being all korean, Polt is LIVING in america. I think most people don't have a problem with koreans actually MOVING to the USA - this gives NA players fantastic practice partners and training opportunities. So Polt is an example of WCS being a success.
and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't WCS america limit the region to people living in the region, and only allowing 2 open spots for people to qualify? the existing koreans already in WCS america got to retain their spots, so that just means NA is complete and utter garbage for not having eliminated them yet. no need to even play macro/standard, they couldn't even pull off successful all-ins to eliminate the koreans? NA players need to step their game up. be glad that they're weeded out in WCS america. If they played in the global final, the slaughter of NA only "champions" versus GSL code S caliber players would be rated M for mature, not suitable for audiences under 18, viewer discretion advised.
|
On April 08 2014 05:14 sigm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 03:12 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Hurrdurr, anything other than glorious proleague masterrace is not worth watching, hurrdurr.
Such an obnoxious attitude. You can't deny that the level of play is highest in the GSL out of all the WCS tournaments, and while that does not guarantee exciting games by itself, it is a large part of it. And not everyone has the time or the will to watch every single match out there, so a lot of people focus on the big-name games solely because playstyles and personalities aside, at least they can expect a certain level of play. I'm not saying that lesser known and lesser skilled players cannot play exciting and technically proficient matches, it's just that going with top-of-the-line pros gives a better chance for those few matches that you may only have time for to be worth it. So I'd say it's a perfectly reasonable attitude to have, and that you're simply overreacting and making it sound worse than it is.
Thing is, the guy came across as fairly ignorant/disrespectful by disregarding this ro8 competition as pointless. Not so much as a person pressed for time and choosing the overall superior league. I'd go with gsl and spl 9/10 as well if it came down to it, but I can still distinguish top-tier skill seen in lesser leagues.
|
Since its WCS AM and its all koreans, just call the koreans foreigners so a foreigner will win WCS AM. problem solved
|
On April 08 2014 05:49 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 05:42 BaneRiders wrote:On April 08 2014 05:18 Waise wrote:
this conversation is exactly the same every time. it never changes.
the bottom line is that people want a magical world where if you force enough americans into a tournament they'll start beating koreans. or they want an all-american tournament, but then somehow when all-american tournaments happen outside of WCS no one watches and the production is shitty because everyone knows no one is going to watch so why would they put money into that?
i can't believe this same exact conversation is still happening every single time
Well, that I think, is mixing all sorts of feelings into one general complainer. 1. Growing a solid AM scene will require some serious investments in the AM scene to begin with. Part of this is obviously well produced events on a continuous basis, and not just one off happenings ever 2nd year or so. How about a continental league or national leagues for example? Hey, it could be like WCS AM you know, but with like Canadians, Brazilians, Mexicans and Americans instead of Koreans...! What a novel idea! 2. Not growing an AM scene is probably best done by having shitty production of the only regular events there are, and on top of that, allowing a bunch of players, who never ever practice on the AM ladder, to drop in the AM main, grab all the price money that is offered in the entire double continent, and fly out again asap to continue to practice in Korea. Ok, so now ESL is taking over the production for this year, which seems like a really good thing. They have done a marvelous job with WCS EU so far imo. I hope it is in their business strategy to build a big interest in the WCS AM all the way from the Canadian polar regions down to the Strait of Magellan. Of course, this will take some time obviously, but I can wait. It is not like the work has to start from scratch in any case, there are good players in NA already. I really enjoyed watching puCK for example in the Bo16, and he was one map away from winning his group. but what's the motivation to keep "growing the scene" if the viewership isn't there? TB pretty much threw his entire weight into shoutcraft and he openly admitted it wasn't really as successful as it needed to be, isn't that why it ended up being scaled down? your points about investing in the scene have been made a thousand times over, and they are valid, but esports is an entertainment industry. people are only going to go so far to develop local talent if the money and the viewers aren't cutting it. passion projects are nice and all but they have a tendency to fold easily. to me it's simple cause and effect that WCS, GSL etc continue to succeed because they're what people are willing to watch. what other explanation is there, unless you want to go the conspiracy route and say that blizzard is trying to brainwash us into liking koreans or something? your theories are fine, it's just who is going to do it? you? me? totalbiscuit? my complaint is about the attitude of entitlement. so many people seem to be saying "wah wah, i want to see americans, someone make an american tournament for me!" without any realistic perspective on what it takes to successfully produce such a tournament
Yeah, welcome to the SC2 community, a place where most of our discussions are really only a select few that we keep bringing up and rehashing and reiterating on a monthly basis even though the arguments remain the same and the conclusion (or lack thereof) remains the same. Also a place where the general consensus is extremely bipolar and where there will be at least one person who has something to complain about in any given circumstance ever.
I'll give it to you though, you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned entitlement. Indeed, if this is what people want, surely they could do something to make such an event happen, rather than whine on TL about it for the 9001st time? But then even if they do, we'll probably get 50 more pages of "wah wah this event didn't get 50k concurrent viewers, sc2 ded gaem" so I'm not sure if it's entirely worth it. Players would benefit from it though, so there's that at least. ^^
|
I personally don't see the culture in the US being a good place to develop StarCraft players. Artosis mentioned this about Hearthstone, but it is true here too. The money is enough that some people could try to play, but not nearly enough to get enough people focusing on it to have a big enough pool of talent to find and develop stars.
From the numbers I just wiki'd (which may not be precise) the Korean median household income is $26k US while the US median income is $51k US.
StarCraft has been around 3 and a half years so pretty much anybody who hasn't made $175k off of it has just been falling behind other North Americans. (that isn't to say there aren't reasons to play) Now I'm guessing Huk and Idra with the EG money probably have done that and I wouldn't be surprised if the other people to have made that much over the period are actually casters of the Huskey or Day 9 variety. You also look at how your career is going to be relatively short and at the end of it you are going to be behind the rest of your peers in earning potential in general. Its just not something that is going to work out in the US under the US's culture.
Travel to Korea and realize that you need to make about half of that to stay on par and there is much more incentive.
To break it down another way, 172 people were able to participate per season in the WCS leagues. There was $1.6 million in total prizes given out of the entire year. This comes out to $9302 per person for the year.
Then you take into account these things:
1) Prize pools are top heavy so the top 20 players for the year probably made over 90% of the money, the other 180 or so players lived off way less than $9302.
2) Players do have salaries and/or benefits from being part of a team in addition to prize money, but how many teams pay well enough to make up the difference?
Compare this to working part time (20 hours a week) for minimum wage and making $7540 in a year while having time to go to school and put yourself into a position where you will be making over median household income by yourself in 4 years? Or practice 60+ hours a week at StarCraft so you can make less than minimum wage and not advance yourself in any other way.
Thresh became worth 9 figures (well probably 8 after taxes?) by riding his Doom winnings into a game review company into selling it for over $100 million. Most of the rest of the first progaming generation moved onto things like Poker (Grrr, Elky, Pillars), Law School (Maynard), or work for game development companies in some fashion (Zileas, Pillars). As soon as American 10 year olds can see some 16 year old from their local high school win $250k in an online tournament you will see many more motivated and wanting to go into it. For now...you are going to see people who come from places where making $10k can be okay.
Why does Europe seem to do a bit better with developing people? Good question...It isn't opportunity or talent (read the book Outliers) but maybe less total distractions or options. Perhaps more school functions, extracurricular activity options in with popularity in the US of swimming, baseball, hockey, football, basketball, and soccer and the importance that so many put on school sports teams, but its hard to say.
I found WCS America to be interesting and watched both days this past weekend. There were some Americans that did fine, but nothing like the Europeans. I do still like watching players like Bomber and Polt a lot and way more than watching 99% of the Kespa crew. However, nothing is quite as interesting as watching Nada vs Bomber in the round of 8 or Idra vs Jinro in the round of 8...or when Huk and Idra were making deep runs in MLG with Koreans over. We just aren't likely to get much of that anymore as its about dedication and practice environment at this point and that is not practical for people from the US really.
|
On April 08 2014 03:50 Fischbacher wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 03:41 Qwerty85 wrote:On April 08 2014 03:31 Mentalo wrote:
why are these wcs tours called america / europe... its just hilarious... i wouldnt watch uefa champions league either with only korean teams.
these players are no americans / europeans and they dont deserve to play and dominate an other region than korea. just for the reason they have no chance at their home region Yeah because only Europeans play in EU football clubs... There are minimum quotas for the number of "home" players in EU football clubs. You can't have, say, a team of all Brazilians competing in the Champion's league.
Yes, and at the start of the season they implemented the soft-region lock to guarantee a certain number of AM/CHN/SEA players being seeded into the league.
If all the NA players lose and don't advance, I don't see what else could be done.
|
On April 08 2014 06:55 Holdenintherye wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 03:50 Fischbacher wrote:On April 08 2014 03:41 Qwerty85 wrote:On April 08 2014 03:31 Mentalo wrote:
why are these wcs tours called america / europe... its just hilarious... i wouldnt watch uefa champions league either with only korean teams.
these players are no americans / europeans and they dont deserve to play and dominate an other region than korea. just for the reason they have no chance at their home region Yeah because only Europeans play in EU football clubs... There are minimum quotas for the number of "home" players in EU football clubs. You can't have, say, a team of all Brazilians competing in the Champion's league. Yes, and at the start of the season they implemented the soft-region lock to guarantee a certain number of AM/CHN/SEA players being seeded into the league. If all the NA players lose and don't advance, I don't see what else could be done.
have faith in neeb, pretty sure he will make to at least ro8 next season
|
Hmm, I predicted Taeja to not make it out due to his recent form. Happy to be wrong =)
|
United States23455 Posts
On April 08 2014 07:03 Xinzoe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 06:55 Holdenintherye wrote:On April 08 2014 03:50 Fischbacher wrote:On April 08 2014 03:41 Qwerty85 wrote:On April 08 2014 03:31 Mentalo wrote:
why are these wcs tours called america / europe... its just hilarious... i wouldnt watch uefa champions league either with only korean teams.
these players are no americans / europeans and they dont deserve to play and dominate an other region than korea. just for the reason they have no chance at their home region Yeah because only Europeans play in EU football clubs... There are minimum quotas for the number of "home" players in EU football clubs. You can't have, say, a team of all Brazilians competing in the Champion's league. Yes, and at the start of the season they implemented the soft-region lock to guarantee a certain number of AM/CHN/SEA players being seeded into the league. If all the NA players lose and don't advance, I don't see what else could be done. have faith in neeb, pretty sure he will make to at least ro8 next season
I've been burned by foreign terran hype trains before.
|
I don't agree with a blanket "kick Koreans out of AM" because that closes the doors on Korean Americans/Canadians that deserve the spot just as much as their white classmates.
What if Polt and Taeja applied for naturalization and became Americans? Would they still continue to be shunned as "Koreans playing in AM" even when they fly around the globe with American passports, or would they win the praise of all these naysayers as the ones who truly became American heroes?
What if the next American 16-yr-old prodigy after Neeb was someone born and raised in the USA, but just happened to have parents of Korean origin? Would the kid be considered Korean though every legal document screams American?
You can even look at figure skating - I think most people accept Patrick Chan as Canadian, despite his parents being of Chinese origin. Or go back 2 decades - Christie Yamaguchi won gold for the USA and Americans were happy for her, but her last name and appearance clearly are of Japanese origin.
That said, I think it would be a good idea to implement a residency/citizenship requirement in order for KR to compete in EU/AM (and vice versa). Like, you must have lived in your competing region for over a year and you must be a current legal resident (student/work visa/permanent resident/citizen) to qualify, kinda thing. Wasn't there a system of that sort for soccer/football to qualify as a World Cup country rep?
That, or at least put up a language requirement like you need to speak English well enough to conduct in-depth interviews and communicate well with the fans without a translator to compete in NA. I'm figuring people being more accepting of Polt has something to do with the fact that the man can talk to us in English, though occasionally stumbling for words.
|
Okay so I haven't really followed sc2 all that much recently but I can't understand why koreans are in 'WCS America', it may as well be called 'WCS Korea' lol..if someone could explain or send a link explaining how this works I'd appreciate it!
|
On April 08 2014 08:09 inSighTsc2 wrote:Okay so I haven't really followed sc2 all that much recently but I can't understand why koreans are in 'WCS America', it may as well be called 'WCS Korea' lol..if someone could explain or send a link explaining how this works I'd appreciate it!
you have to travel to america. the tournament is held in america. that's what makes it WCS america, it's not "a tournament for americans" as some would have you believe. (the obvious exception is how it's in europe this year because the NA organization collapsed)
koreans figured out the investment in traveling to america could be worth the payoff because they gain foreign exposure and compete against a weaker level of competition overall
simple as that
|
On April 08 2014 08:12 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 08:09 inSighTsc2 wrote:Okay so I haven't really followed sc2 all that much recently but I can't understand why koreans are in 'WCS America', it may as well be called 'WCS Korea' lol..if someone could explain or send a link explaining how this works I'd appreciate it! you have to travel to america. the tournament is held in america. that's what makes it WCS america, it's not "a tournament for americans" as some would have you believe. (the obvious exception is how it's in europe this year because the NA organization collapsed) koreans figured out the investment in traveling to america could be worth the payoff because they gain foreign exposure and compete against a weaker level of competition overall simple as that
not really weaker since all the mostly koreans will get to ro8 anyway. If anything WCS AM is just as competitive as KR once foreigners are knocked out. no offense to americans
Taeja Polt Bomber Hyun is slightly weaker than Zest soO LIFUUU and Rain, also jjakji Stardust MMA San
|
On April 08 2014 09:01 Xinzoe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 08:12 Waise wrote:On April 08 2014 08:09 inSighTsc2 wrote:Okay so I haven't really followed sc2 all that much recently but I can't understand why koreans are in 'WCS America', it may as well be called 'WCS Korea' lol..if someone could explain or send a link explaining how this works I'd appreciate it! you have to travel to america. the tournament is held in america. that's what makes it WCS america, it's not "a tournament for americans" as some would have you believe. (the obvious exception is how it's in europe this year because the NA organization collapsed) koreans figured out the investment in traveling to america could be worth the payoff because they gain foreign exposure and compete against a weaker level of competition overall simple as that not really weaker since all the mostly koreans will get to ro8 anyway. If anything WCS AM is just as competitive as KR once foreigners are knocked out. no offense to americans
yeah but in KR you have to go through a lot more very high level players, so the qualifiers and early rounds are more competitive. this means a lower chance of advancing to the later rounds as opposed to WCS AM where if you're a taeja, polt, bomber, hyun you're almost guaranteed ro8. that's all i meant
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
