For the first time in four seasons, WCS America will feature an all-Korean quarterfinals. Liquid`TaeJa, ESC.Arthur, CMStorm_Polt, and RedBull_Bomber advanced from their groups on day two of the Ro16, joining their four countrymen in quarterfinals. ESL drew the brackets immediately following the final group:
After the three remaining North American players were eliminated from the competition on day one of the Ro16, it was the Chinese players' turn to bow out on day two. Surprisingly, two time WCS America quarterfinalist iG.MacSed had the worst performance, getting eliminated with a 0-4 score. Zenith of Origin's TooDming nearly made it through, but was defeated 2-1 by Arthur in the deciding match of Group C.
The remainder of the tournament will be played out on April 10-13.
The whole WCS system is a joke. Just cancel the regional seperation and make it a normal tournament, maybe directly in korea. I dont blame the players using the easy route through the weaker US qualifier, i blame the stupid rules that enable such "cheating".
Omg this bracket, I've seen it earlier but I just can't bend my mind around it. I'm going seriously for the bracket contest and thinks its toons of fun.
But I just can't decide who I think will win the Taeja vs Hyun and Polt vs Revival matches. Seriously Revival seemmed so strong against jjakji, but Polt has been nigh unstoppable. Taeja is god but has been performing poorly at times lately and we never know when his wrist issues might flare up, especially in TvZ. And Hyun.... Seriously he has been on fire lately, his run through IEM katowice open bracket undefeated.... Sure then he got knocked out early but by no one else but herO in a very close 2-3 series. Hyun is in my opinion one of the stronger zergs but I haven't seen barely any ZvT from him lately so I can't be sure that MU is as good for him as his ZvZ and ZvP.
I'm leaning towards Polt and Hyun but will probably change my mind a few more times =P
On April 07 2014 17:22 azzih wrote: The whole WCS system is a joke. Just cancel the regional seperation and make it a normal tournament, maybe directly in korea. I dont blame the players using the easy route through the weaker US qualifier, i blame the stupid rules that enable such "cheating".
On April 07 2014 17:22 azzih wrote: The whole WCS system is a joke. Just cancel the regional seperation and make it a normal tournament, maybe directly in korea. I dont blame the players using the easy route through the weaker US qualifier, i blame the stupid rules that enable such "cheating".
On April 07 2014 17:58 esdf wrote: NA qualis now officially a career restart point for shitty hasbeen koreans.
Bomber, Polt, Tajea, HyuN.
Shitty hasbeen Koreans. The level of What-the-fuck here is beyond imagination, please manner-up.
Talking about the other half of the bracket. Would prefer shitty neverbeen americans to hasbeens. Blizzard really needs to do something with who's allowed and who's not allowed to participate in each region.
On April 07 2014 17:58 esdf wrote: NA qualis now officially a career restart point for shitty hasbeen koreans.
Bomber, Polt, Tajea, HyuN.
Shitty hasbeen Koreans. The level of What-the-fuck here is beyond imagination, please manner-up.
Talking about the other half of the bracket. Would prefer shitty neverbeen americans to hasbeens. Blizzard really needs to do something with who's allowed and who's not allowed to participate in each region.
They did something, but it didn't change anything. They made it so if you don't live in the region there are only a few(2 I think) spots for you to qualify per season. Problem is they didn't kick the Koreans already in WCS out(well of course they weren't going to do that).
On April 07 2014 18:10 GizmoPT wrote: great to see americans stepping up their game
They weren't that great at WC3 either (except AetherX and RushWizard for a while), though I expected them to be a bit more competitive at SC2. Early on (especially IdrA was good for a while, and HuK) they were, and they still have Scarlett I guess.
I think most people like these players, and they pretty much were the best of the region. We'll get to see Taeja and Polt, and that's never bad. Blizzard can't ban races from participating (human races, lol), so of course there will be many Koreans. It just makes it that more exciting when a foreign player does well. Puck came really close to being in this bracket.
Defeats the purpose of region representation and a global finals. Global finals is just a one-day Code S in this system. At least sending "weak" American players to a global finals would be exciting, even if we just watched them get crushed. Our homegrown American/Canadian players have insufficient tournament support or foundation for their careers and personal improvement. Imagine a global finals with 1/3 actual American region, 1/3 actual Europeans, and 1/3 Koreans... that would be awesome! First find our best in each homegrown region, then pit the best of each region against the best of the other regions, kind of like they do in other sports! That's what it's really supposed to be, right? They screwed up last year, and crossed their fingers in the hopes that a few rule tweaks and some in-game upsets would fix the ratio of Korean-to-foreigner for this year. They crossed their fingers and now all they have is egg on their faces. This notion of region pride is a complete joke. Top 8 NA are Koreans. Get your American flags ready for waving, ladies and gents! Our Americans are going to need our support at the end of the year when they must battle players from all different parts of the globe! If our Americans are anything to go by, I'm quite certain we'll be seeing only Americans at the global finals. Go America!
On April 07 2014 19:01 ANLProbe wrote: Taeja only left WCS KR due to wrist problems and Polt left for school. Polt, Taeja and Bomber are definitely NOT hasbeen Koreans.
Don't mind the haters. As long as these "has been Koreans" can stomp the American competition I'll prefer watching them over some foreigner love.
On April 07 2014 19:14 Vidar wrote: Defeats the purpose of region representation and a global finals. Global finals is just a one-day Code S in this system. At least sending "weak" American players to a global finals would be exciting, even if we just watched them get crushed. Our homegrown American/Canadian players have insufficient tournament support or foundation for their careers and personal improvement. Imagine a global finals with 1/3 actual American region, 1/3 actual Europeans, and 1/3 Koreans... that would be awesome! First find our best in each homegrown region, then pit the best of each region against the best of the other regions, kind of like they do in other sports! That's what it's really supposed to be, right? They screwed up last year, and crossed their fingers in the hopes that a few rule tweaks and some in-game upsets would fix the ratio of Korean-to-foreigner for this year. They crossed their fingers and now all they have is egg on their faces. This notion of region pride is a complete joke. Top 8 NA are Koreans. Get your American flags ready for waving, ladies and gents! Our Americans are going to need our support at the end of the year when they must battle players from all different parts of the globe! If our Americans are anything to go by, I'm quite certain we'll be seeing only Americans at the global finals. Go America!
On the contrary, I don't think watching Neeb and desRow get crushed by any combination of players would be exciting in the slightest. There is only one way match-ups like Neeb vs Zest or Masa vs soO could end, and if we both know both how it'll end and that the games won't be very exciting beforehand, what's the point in watching? You may feel that watching "home-grown" American players get stomped through the ground is exciting and if that's the case then that's fine, but I don't think many people share that opinion.
Further,
! First find our best in each homegrown region, then pit the best of each region against the best of the other regions, kind of like they do in other sports! That's what it's really supposed to be, right
No it's not. That's what some people want WCS to be, but Blizzard has never at any point specifically said that they want two thirds of the Global Finals to be made up of non-Korean players. People blame Blizzard for failing with WCS, but Blizzard's goals for the tournament series seems fairly in line with how it's ended up.
On April 07 2014 17:22 azzih wrote: The whole WCS system is a joke. Just cancel the regional seperation and make it a normal tournament, maybe directly in korea. I dont blame the players using the easy route through the weaker US qualifier, i blame the stupid rules that enable such "cheating".
On April 07 2014 17:22 azzih wrote: The whole WCS system is a joke. Just cancel the regional seperation and make it a normal tournament, maybe directly in korea. I dont blame the players using the easy route through the weaker US qualifier, i blame the stupid rules that enable such "cheating".
WCS AM is the toughest region though
For Americans, sure, but not for Koreans.
Really? Not the toughest to get to the Ro16 maybe.
But I think the Koreans involved don't think it'll be easy to win the whole thing.
E.g. I don't think Alicia and Arthur are thinking it'll easy, right now...
Whats up wit all the butthurt in this thread? oO I would like a scenario where you have a few non korean players mixed in aswell (like in EU) but is it really Blizzards fault that the NA players cannot compete on the highest level? Would you rather like an all american Ro8 where the America representatives get absolutely crushed at the global finals? Maybe take some pride in Polt and cheer for him if you need someone to identify with
On April 07 2014 20:46 LinaiL wrote: Whats up wit all the butthurt in this thread? oO I would like a scenario where you have a few non korean players mixed in aswell (like in EU) but is it really Blizzards fault that the NA players cannot compete on the highest level? Would you rather like an all american Ro8 where the America representatives get absolutely crushed at the global finals? Maybe take some pride in Polt and cheer for him if you need someone to identify with
Yeah, I don't get it either. WCS 2012 severely limited the number of Koreans at the global finals and represented the entire world rather fairly. While there were small upsets like IdrA getting out of his group 4-0 against HerO and Stephano (I think?) and Sen performing really well, in the end most of the matches were Korean stomps. That was in a time when foreigners could still win or get far in premier tournaments (mostly Stephano, but still).
WCS 2013 was AMAZING gamewise and storywise. The story of Innovation & Soulkey in Season 1, Bomber winning Season 2 with an amazing run, Dear winning WCS KR & Global in Season 3, sOs coming out of nowhere to win Global finals dominantly. I think I'll never forget season 2 - Grubby beat Mvp and felt amazing, Jaedong finally beats Protoss, Scarlett beat Maru & MMA and almost Bomber, duckdeok had probably one of the best moments of his life when he won WCS EU, Polt started his domination of WCS NA, Taeja vs. Innovation happened.
The most exciting thing about seeing non-Koreans get far was that they always got there on their own merit. Scarlett and Naniwa didn't get charity seeds, they just played better and won their matches fair and square, which is far more exciting. I sincerely hope we get more foreigners like them in WCS NA & WCS EU, but the best Starcraft players deserve to be at Global Finals. And they are all Korean at the moment.
Blizzard does everything they can to limit and get rid of Koreans in foreign WCS. But they cant just straight-up kick existing Koreans out of the leagues, thats your responsibility NA/EU gamers. Shame on you if you are so incompetent to do that one simple thing.
Even though people are complaining about the Koreans in America, on the bright side the race distribution for this entire tournament has been pretty awesome. Glad to see everything is balancing out. Gogo OZ!
that's like saying yo the NBA should dedicate 30% of their rosters to people not from america, regardless of the fact that there are better players in america.
On April 07 2014 17:22 azzih wrote: The whole WCS system is a joke. Just cancel the regional seperation and make it a normal tournament, maybe directly in korea. I dont blame the players using the easy route through the weaker US qualifier, i blame the stupid rules that enable such "cheating".
WCS AM is the toughest region though
For Americans, sure, but not for Koreans.
Really? Not the toughest to get to the Ro16 maybe.
But I think the Koreans involved don't think it'll be easy to win the whole thing.
E.g. I don't think Alicia and Arthur are thinking it'll easy, right now...
The majority of players in the Ro16 of GSL would be a favourite if they were in WCS AM instead. SoS, Life, Soulkey, Dear, Mary, Zest, Rain, Parting, Soo, herO. These guys would murder anyone in either EU or AM.
So Arthur or Alicia might have a tough time in Ro8 AM, but they would never even qualify for GSL in the first place.
I am still suprised some people want to see NA players go up against the monsters from Code S in Korea. desRow vs Maru - yea right, what an amazing match up... not. This is obviously not against desRow, but the NA level is simply not high enough. An in shape Scarlett is fucking scary and she can beat the very best if she brings her a-game. Thats what we want to see. We saw Naniwa beat INnoVation. Thats upsets that are deserved. Thats foreigners that EARNED their spot.
I want the best of the best (as does Blizzard) in the global finals - leave fucking politics out of this.
If i were blizzard or consumer this would not make me happy. AM needs AM contribution, atleast very far in the tournament. Maybe they can patch the game in such a way that it buffs the top AM players for next season.
On April 07 2014 22:26 govie wrote: If i were blizzard or consumer this would not make me happy. AM needs AM contribution, atleast very far in the tournament. Maybe they can patch the game in such a way that it buffs the top AM players for next season.
I agree, I wish the rules were a little different.
I also see the Korean aspect here. These guys work really hard and I don't want to bash them for training hard and competing. It's nearly impossible to win in mainland Korea, so can you really blame them for competing?
On April 07 2014 17:22 azzih wrote: The whole WCS system is a joke. Just cancel the regional seperation and make it a normal tournament, maybe directly in korea. I dont blame the players using the easy route through the weaker US qualifier, i blame the stupid rules that enable such "cheating".
WCS AM is the toughest region though
For Americans, sure, but not for Koreans.
Really? Not the toughest to get to the Ro16 maybe.
But I think the Koreans involved don't think it'll be easy to win the whole thing.
E.g. I don't think Alicia and Arthur are thinking it'll easy, right now...
The majority of players in the Ro16 of GSL would be a favourite if they were in WCS AM instead. SoS, Life, Soulkey, Dear, Mary, Zest, Rain, Parting, Soo, herO. These guys would murder anyone in either EU or AM.
So Arthur or Alicia might have a tough time in Ro8 AM, but they would never even qualify for GSL in the first place.
Sure. And Taeja, Bomber, Polt could totally have (well, for Taeja, its wrists make it questionable but still). So? Not saying they'd have been championship contender, but I definitely see them qualify over Pet, Myungsik, Ruin, or Paralyze. I'd not put HyuN in this, though he may have. Still hard to predict how these would perform in Korea since it's not the same practice environment I'd say.
This WCS AM brackets goes against pretty much the whole concept and idea of regional WCS tournaments. It is painstakingly obvious that NA players just aren't on par with the rest, so having a regional WCS with the same prize pool like Korea and Europe is pointless. Just give 80% of prize money for WCS AM to GSL, expand GSL player slots so it can sustain more players and have a smaller NA WCS with 20% of prize pool with full region lock so all (three) American pro gamers huk, scarlett and desrow can compete against each other and are guaranteed some easy bucks. (P.S. and the official game should be changed from SC2 to payday 2 since judging from streams they prefer that)
Maybe its just me but I thought the idea of a tournament was the best player won? Not the player who was born in the country the tournament is in.... no tournament is run like that, grow up lol.
This fellow has the right idea!..
On April 07 2014 23:08 Yorkie wrote: Forget the whiners, this top 8 bracket it sickkkkkkk
a US tournament confirmed as one of the best EU tournaments in which koreans are dominating...(I really can't get enogh of this :D ) the intercontinental is strong in ESL :D
We already had some good games from American players in Challenger/RO32/RO16. It was great to see desRow win against Apocalypse in Challenger or Major take the first series against Taeja. Puck/Neeb gave us exciting games and were very close to make it to RO8. If you want to see American player, you should watch the early rounds, there are plenty of them.
Same things goes for WCS EU, I always have great time watching the qualifiers to challenger to see new players like MarineLord, Lilbow, or ABomb.
The last stages are for the really best. WCS should favored regional players for the qualifiers, nothing more.
On April 07 2014 22:01 zev318 wrote: so many AM tears, nom nom nom
that's like saying yo the NBA should dedicate 30% of their rosters to people not from america, regardless of the fact that there are better players in america.
You do realise the NBA is already at 20% with 92 rostered foreigners. The best record in the league is held by a team stacked with foreigners (Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Splitter, Diaw, Mills, Bellinelli). It's just not a good analogy.
On April 07 2014 23:28 sigm wrote: WCS America, run by europeans and filled to the brim with asian players. Makes sense, if you think about it.
Still makes more sense to the scene that run by americans (who? MLG is busy, NASL doesn't exist anymore) filled with americans only? To get the number of players there currently is, you'd have to go as far as asking complete no-name. Could be cool for them, but you'd get <2000 viewers and a really low level of play, and that counts a bit apparently. EU is in the same situation to some extent, as there are really few european players that are relevant in a korean heavy competition.
I think it's up to the americans to develop their local scene, and thus help talents rise to the top locally, and then challenge the mighty Koreans. TB does that a bit with Shoutcraft I'd say, but it's far from enough.
On April 07 2014 23:46 Gouka wrote: I get kinda frustrated when I don't see any foreigner player going far in WCS tournaments. But, I think it's not fault of Blizzard or Koreans.
(Guys, I'm relatively new to SC2 programing scene. Can someone explain me why some people says that Polt is American or something like this?)
It's a joke, people did the same with Stephano a while ago, chanting "USA USA USA" when he was winning. It's partly based on Polt moving to the USA to study there. Also, he was known to have the best english amongst Korean (before moving there, as it improved subsequently).
On April 07 2014 23:46 Gouka wrote: I get kinda frustrated when I don't see any foreigner player going far in WCS tournaments. But, I think it's not fault of Blizzard or Koreans.
(Guys, I'm relatively new to SC2 programing scene. Can someone explain me why some people says that Polt is American or something like this?)
He goes to University in the USA, in Texas, actually. (Not sure if he graduated or if he still lives here)
On April 07 2014 23:46 Gouka wrote: I get kinda frustrated when I don't see any foreigner player going far in WCS tournaments. But, I think it's not fault of Blizzard or Koreans.
(Guys, I'm relatively new to SC2 programing scene. Can someone explain me why some people says that Polt is American or something like this?)
It's a long running joke on TL based on the fact that Polt is living and studying in the US.
Also, there seems to be a thing where anyone doing good will be adopted by Americans, see Stephano. Even before that "Team USA!" at the global championship had a Canadian and a bunch of Europeans on it.
On April 07 2014 23:27 Totorosc2 wrote: We already had some good games from American players in Challenger/RO32/RO16. It was great to see desRow win against Apocalypse in Challenger or Major take the first series against Taeja. Puck/Neeb gave us exciting games and were very close to make it to RO8. If you want to see American player, you should watch the early rounds, there are plenty of them.
Same things goes for WCS EU, I always have great time watching the qualifiers to challenger to see new players like MarineLord, Lilbow, or ABomb.
The last stages are for the really best. WCS should favored regional players for the qualifiers, nothing more.
This dude knows what's up. WCS allows foreigners to showcase who they are and their skills in the early rounds, and if one of them advances to the part where it's the best of the best playing, then we know they're damned good!
On April 08 2014 01:35 TitusVI wrote: I thought that there is a region lock this season?
There is a soft region lock, meaning only a limited number of new Koreans can join forces with the 175 or so that were already there...
...and this is where the problem lies imo. Just limit the number of Koreans in the WCS AM and WCS EU to let's say 5 each. (To be fair, we can limit the number of Europeans and Americans to 5 for participating in WCS KR too.) Are there more interested in participating? Let there be a pre-qualification tournament, problem solved. All people from outside their own region will have to get 200 wins on the ladder and go through qualifiers and challenger league every single season. Let invaders earn their bread properly. This would ensure plenty of opportunity for WCS EU and AM to study, practice and play against the most fearsome invaders regularly, no matter where they are from. And for the fans of the invaders it will ensure additional matches to watch these players too, so everyone should be happy, no? One way or the other, there is a need to build the AM scene, and quite frankly, what we see now is not really doing that.
On April 08 2014 01:58 BaneRiders wrote: To be fair, we can limit the number of Europeans and Americans to 5 for participating in WCS KR too.
That would still be about twice as much as there are actual non-Korean participants in the Code A qualifiers each season. It's not exactly a prime destination for western players.
I wish that the WCS was regional locked, only americans in WCS America....only Europians in WCS EU, Only Koreans in WCS KR.....But I guess this will never happen. T_T
I dont really understand the mindset that is behind all this. There are thousands of NA players and a big community so are u guys not interested to see whos the best of NA? Sure koreans are the best but when u want to see the best u can watch gsl. How can a community grow or enjoy themself when they have no stage to participate.
The only ones ruining e-sports are american players themselves. I'd love for more players to be up there, but their skill is simply not close to Koreans/Chinese with maybe 1-2 "exceptions". You can blame it on the format, but it'd be a dumb move by blizzard to region lock WCS AM when players are so far behind in skill level.
I realize that the fact that WCS AM is filled with koreans only makes it harder for American heroes to step up in the only league for the whole continent, leading to financial instability and a loss in motivation for the players, but notable examples like Scarlett show that you can thrive under this circumstances and be a top notch player anyway.
On April 08 2014 02:25 TitusVI wrote: I dont really understand the mindset that is behind all this. There are thousands of NA players and a big community so are u guys not interested to see whos the best of NA? Sure koreans are the best but when u want to see the best u can watch gsl. How can a community grow or enjoy themself when they have no stage to participate.
exactly this. sadly there's a large proportion of users that think that any game that doesn't feature two top-10 players in the world going off against each other is automatically not worth watching, regardless of parity between players, exciting playstyles etc. i guess by their rationale we should never watch college basketball, any soccer that isn't featuring bayern/real/barca, the cleveland browns
On April 08 2014 02:25 TitusVI wrote: I dont really understand the mindset that is behind all this. There are thousands of NA players and a big community so are u guys not interested to see whos the best of NA? Sure koreans are the best but when u want to see the best u can watch gsl. How can a community grow or enjoy themself when they have no stage to participate.
exactly this. sadly there's a large proportion of users that think that any game that doesn't feature two top-10 players in the world going off against each other is automatically not worth watching, regardless of parity between players, exciting playstyles etc. i guess by their rationale we should never watch college basketball, any soccer that isn't featuring bayern/real/barca, the cleveland browns
But this bracket doesn't have any top 10 players in it. It just looks like a pointless low tier GSL.
On April 08 2014 02:25 TitusVI wrote: I dont really understand the mindset that is behind all this. There are thousands of NA players and a big community so are u guys not interested to see whos the best of NA? Sure koreans are the best but when u want to see the best u can watch gsl. How can a community grow or enjoy themself when they have no stage to participate.
That's the hellhole known as the Starcraft community, it rages upon no "high-quality content" yet unleashes rage on not having enough support for their own fundamental player base, because supporting them means "low quality content", despite enough has been proved by TB and others that with enough attention and professionalism even NA Starcraft can provide enough entertainment and stand on its own.
On April 08 2014 02:51 vult wrote: Blizzard wants to at least get some money in from viewers and as revenue, which is something they most likely wouldn't get with a solely NA roster.
It's not as if we will ever find out if WCS AM continues with the current format, that is for sure...
why are these wcs tours called america / europe... its just hilarious... i wouldnt watch uefa champions league either with only korean teams. these players are no americans / europeans and they dont deserve to play and dominate an other region than korea. just for the reason they have no chance at their home region
While I would enjoy seeing more NA players in WCS AM (more emotion, generally smaller language barrier, etc).
At the end of the day, most NA (and EU) players simply aren't good enough compared to Koreans, and I'd rather see them stomped in WCS EU/AM then at the global finals.
For the first time in four seasons, WCS has gone from being almost all Korean quarter finals to an all Korean finals. A Chinese player almost made it through while no North Americans made it through, though completely expected.
Unfortunately HuK came up short despite Protoss currently being the strongest it has ever been.
On April 07 2014 22:26 govie wrote: If i were blizzard or consumer this would not make me happy. AM needs AM contribution, atleast very far in the tournament. Maybe they can patch the game in such a way that it buffs the top AM players for next season.
Tbh, people would be less pissy if NA players actually had a separate means of competing regionally... repeatedly losing in qualifiers and groups to korean's far superior limits all tournament opportunities NA players have :/ You guys can bitch and moan all you want about players "needing to improve", but with such a lack of genuine competition opportunity and a depleted local standard of quality, how can you expect NA players to ever improve? Being punted out of the only regional tournament in round 1 of a qualifier by a random Korean isn't exactly beneficial ><
On April 08 2014 03:31 Mentalo wrote: why are these wcs tours called america / europe... its just hilarious... i wouldnt watch uefa champions league either with only korean teams. these players are no americans / europeans and they dont deserve to play and dominate an other region than korea. just for the reason they have no chance at their home region
Yeah because only Europeans play in EU football clubs...
On April 08 2014 02:25 TitusVI wrote: I dont really understand the mindset that is behind all this. There are thousands of NA players and a big community so are u guys not interested to see whos the best of NA? Sure koreans are the best but when u want to see the best u can watch gsl. How can a community grow or enjoy themself when they have no stage to participate.
exactly this. sadly there's a large proportion of users that think that any game that doesn't feature two top-10 players in the world going off against each other is automatically not worth watching, regardless of parity between players, exciting playstyles etc. i guess by their rationale we should never watch college basketball, any soccer that isn't featuring bayern/real/barca, the cleveland browns
But this bracket doesn't have any top 10 players in it. It just looks like a pointless low tier GSL.
How many times do players like Polt and Taeja need to stomp GSL heros before people drop this stupid mentality?
On April 08 2014 03:31 Mentalo wrote: why are these wcs tours called america / europe... its just hilarious... i wouldnt watch uefa champions league either with only korean teams. these players are no americans / europeans and they dont deserve to play and dominate an other region than korea. just for the reason they have no chance at their home region
Yeah because only Europeans play in EU football clubs...
There are minimum quotas for the number of "home" players in EU football clubs. You can't have, say, a team of all Brazilians competing in the Champion's league.
On April 08 2014 03:31 Mentalo wrote: why are these wcs tours called america / europe... its just hilarious... i wouldnt watch uefa champions league either with only korean teams. these players are no americans / europeans and they dont deserve to play and dominate an other region than korea. just for the reason they have no chance at their home region
Yeah because only Europeans play in EU football clubs...
There are minimum quotas for the number of "home" players in EU football clubs. You can't have, say, a team of all Brazilians competing in the Champion's league.
And when compairing Football with Starcraft EU would be Korea while Na would be USA. And USA does not have all EU player teams.
On April 08 2014 03:31 Mentalo wrote: why are these wcs tours called america / europe... its just hilarious... i wouldnt watch uefa champions league either with only korean teams. these players are no americans / europeans and they dont deserve to play and dominate an other region than korea. just for the reason they have no chance at their home region
Yeah because only Europeans play in EU football clubs...
There are minimum quotas for the number of "home" players in EU football clubs. You can't have, say, a team of all Brazilians competing in the Champion's league.
Still, the 11 that come out are based on skill and current form, not by local patriotism. Europe is strong in football since it is an extremely popular sport here so you will always have good spanish, german or english players playing in spanish, german or english clubs.It is because they are among the best and can compete with the best. Even small country like mine produced a lot of great players who played or still play in biggest clubs.
On the other hand, if you would all of a sudden have US version of Champions League and super rich clubs that could afford the best players and if entire football scene shifted to US right now, there would probably be like 1% of Americans and 99% of South Americans and Europeans actually playing...
However, as football would become more and more popular (because of the high level play you watch) there would be probably more Americans playing the game as well and eventually you would have Americans that can actually get into top teams and play along with the best players.
It is not maybe the best example because football gives you a safer future I would say because even average players can make a great living out of playing the game which is not really the case in SC2 since there is far less money available.
Personally I would rather have bracket with Bomber, Taeja, Polt, Hyun etc. than local NA players because those games should be better with best guys playing. That however doesn't mean that WCS should "eat" all other tournaments and stop the development of the local scene.
The biggest issue I actually see is that those Koreans who are now in the brackets actually practice on the KR ladder.At least I assume most of them do. If they played NA and made NA GM stronger and more competitive, NA players would probably improve in skill as well.
WCS EU is slightly different because most of the Koreans actually now live in EU and can't play KR server because of the lag so overall quality of EU GM has improved by having guys like Jjakji, MC, MMA, ForGG as practice partners. Still not even close to KR GM but much better than before.
So the ideal scenario would be if people in EU or NA would watch those amazing Koreans and get motivation to get to that level, of course paired by an infrastructure that would support them in their attempts to reach those levels...
Why is this "boo hoo koreans" still a thing? Noone would have enjoyed an AM only "tourney".
And "AM hardest region" is such a confusing statement. Just because you haven't followed long time solid players like soo and Zest since they beat people in BW they're faceless and bad?
Grow up and be thankful for the great bracket. This is almost as good as a Code A group.
for those who dont wanna watch top level competition, go watch WCS EU
...
just kidding... WCS EU is "almost" as good as WCS AM....
for those of us that do wanna watch the best competition? the best players happen to be all korean top 8
the new WCS 2014 format in which only 2 koreans can come through the qualifiers is kinda late, maybe if this was implements in 2013 Season 2 this might have worked
theres just too many good koreans already in the system, and they wont ever lose in the Up and Downs
a way to really make the WCS 2014 only 2 korean qualifiers work is if they reset the entire system, everyone must requalify again, which they surely arent going to do
On April 08 2014 02:25 TitusVI wrote: I dont really understand the mindset that is behind all this. There are thousands of NA players and a big community so are u guys not interested to see whos the best of NA? Sure koreans are the best but when u want to see the best u can watch gsl. How can a community grow or enjoy themself when they have no stage to participate.
exactly this. sadly there's a large proportion of users that think that any game that doesn't feature two top-10 players in the world going off against each other is automatically not worth watching, regardless of parity between players, exciting playstyles etc. i guess by their rationale we should never watch college basketball, any soccer that isn't featuring bayern/real/barca, the cleveland browns
But this bracket doesn't have any top 10 players in it. It just looks like a pointless low tier GSL.
Really? You don't think Polt, Bomber and Taeja couldn't easily be code S if they were back in Korea? That they're not among the upper-tier of Terrans?
On April 08 2014 02:25 TitusVI wrote: I dont really understand the mindset that is behind all this. There are thousands of NA players and a big community so are u guys not interested to see whos the best of NA? Sure koreans are the best but when u want to see the best u can watch gsl. How can a community grow or enjoy themself when they have no stage to participate.
exactly this. sadly there's a large proportion of users that think that any game that doesn't feature two top-10 players in the world going off against each other is automatically not worth watching, regardless of parity between players, exciting playstyles etc. i guess by their rationale we should never watch college basketball, any soccer that isn't featuring bayern/real/barca, the cleveland browns
But this bracket doesn't have any top 10 players in it. It just looks like a pointless low tier GSL.
Really? You don't think Polt, Bomber and Taeja couldn't easily be code S if they were back in Korea? That they're not among the upper-tier of Terrans?
On April 08 2014 04:23 neptunusfisk wrote: Why is this "boo hoo koreans" still a thing? Noone would have enjoyed an AM only "tourney".
And "AM hardest region" is such a confusing statement. Just because you haven't followed long time solid players like soo and Zest since they beat people in BW they're faceless and bad?
Grow up and be thankful for the great bracket. This is almost as good as a Code A group.
I would have enjoyed an AM only tourney. If I want to see an KR only tourney, np, there is at least one I can watch already, and it is called WCS KR.
On April 08 2014 02:25 TitusVI wrote: I dont really understand the mindset that is behind all this. There are thousands of NA players and a big community so are u guys not interested to see whos the best of NA? Sure koreans are the best but when u want to see the best u can watch gsl. How can a community grow or enjoy themself when they have no stage to participate.
exactly this. sadly there's a large proportion of users that think that any game that doesn't feature two top-10 players in the world going off against each other is automatically not worth watching, regardless of parity between players, exciting playstyles etc. i guess by their rationale we should never watch college basketball, any soccer that isn't featuring bayern/real/barca, the cleveland browns
But this bracket doesn't have any top 10 players in it. It just looks like a pointless low tier GSL.
Really? You don't think Polt, Bomber and Taeja couldn't easily be code S if they were back in Korea? That they're not among the upper-tier of Terrans?
They are easily the best terrans. WCS Korea has only Maru who is comparable in skills.
On April 08 2014 04:23 neptunusfisk wrote: Why is this "boo hoo koreans" still a thing? Noone would have enjoyed an AM only "tourney".
And "AM hardest region" is such a confusing statement. Just because you haven't followed long time solid players like soo and Zest since they beat people in BW they're faceless and bad?
Grow up and be thankful for the great bracket. This is almost as good as a Code A group.
I would have enjoyed an AM only tourney. If I want to see an KR only tourney, np, there is at least one I can watch already, and it is called WCS KR.
Well it is not like foreigners can't play WCS KR (GSL). They just can't get through the Code B hell.....
On April 08 2014 03:12 TotalBiscuit wrote: Hurrdurr, anything other than glorious proleague masterrace is not worth watching, hurrdurr.
Such an obnoxious attitude.
You can't deny that the level of play is highest in the GSL out of all the WCS tournaments, and while that does not guarantee exciting games by itself, it is a large part of it. And not everyone has the time or the will to watch every single match out there, so a lot of people focus on the big-name games solely because playstyles and personalities aside, at least they can expect a certain level of play. I'm not saying that lesser known and lesser skilled players cannot play exciting and technically proficient matches, it's just that going with top-of-the-line pros gives a better chance for those few matches that you may only have time for to be worth it. So I'd say it's a perfectly reasonable attitude to have, and that you're simply overreacting and making it sound worse than it is.
this conversation is exactly the same every time. it never changes.
the bottom line is that people want a magical world where if you force enough americans into a tournament they'll start beating koreans. or they want an all-american tournament, but then somehow when all-american tournaments happen outside of WCS no one watches and the production is shitty because everyone knows no one is going to watch so why would they put money into that?
i can't believe this same exact conversation is still happening every single time
On April 08 2014 03:12 TotalBiscuit wrote: Hurrdurr, anything other than glorious proleague masterrace is not worth watching, hurrdurr.
Such an obnoxious attitude.
You can't deny that the level of play is highest in the GSL out of all the WCS tournaments, and while that does not guarantee exciting games by itself, it is a large part of it. And not everyone has the time or the will to watch every single match out there, so a lot of people focus on the big-name games solely because playstyles and personalities aside, at least they can expect a certain level of play. I'm not saying that lesser known and lesser skilled players cannot play exciting and technically proficient matches, it's just that going with top-of-the-line pros gives a better chance for those few matches that you may only have time for to be worth it. So I'd say it's a perfectly reasonable attitude to have, and that you're simply overreacting and making it sound worse than it is.
On April 08 2014 04:23 neptunusfisk wrote: Why is this "boo hoo koreans" still a thing? Noone would have enjoyed an AM only "tourney".
And "AM hardest region" is such a confusing statement. Just because you haven't followed long time solid players like soo and Zest since they beat people in BW they're faceless and bad?
Grow up and be thankful for the great bracket. This is almost as good as a Code A group.
I would have enjoyed an AM only tourney. If I want to see an KR only tourney, np, there is at least one I can watch already, and it is called WCS KR.
Well it is not like foreigners can't play WCS KR (GSL). They just can't get through the Code B hell.....
How is that related to enjoying to see an AM only tournament?
How come so few people watched Shoutcraft? I mean, surely American-only competition should at least break 40k viewers given that so many people are adamant that it's what the scene needs, right?
On April 08 2014 05:08 Mensol wrote: what a surprise.
I wish IdrA was here, he was better than Revival, Arthur and Alicia.
At his peak, perhaps, but both Revival and Alicia have had comparable highs.
On April 08 2014 05:27 Zealously wrote: How come so few people watched Shoutcraft? I mean, surely American-only competition should at least break 40k viewers given that so many people are adamant that it's what the scene needs, right?
On April 08 2014 05:27 Zealously wrote: How come so few people watched Shoutcraft? I mean, surely American-only competition should at least break 40k viewers given that so many people are adamant that it's what the scene needs, right?
this is the thing that drives me nuts about this debate. shoutcraft is all well and good, despite having a couple of issues it was probably the best attempt anyone has put forth to make the NA-only thing work. and it's fine that there are people in the scene who want shoutcraft and similar tournaments to work and be successful. that's fine.
what's not fine is the attitude i constantly see from people who are heavily pro-foreigner/anti-korean (in terms of what they want to watch). i've literally seen people blame other fans in the scene for not trying hard enough to support foreigners. what? if i like watching koreans and i'm fine with watching koreans, why is it my responsibility to support foreigners just because a vocal minority REALLY REALLY wants to see north american players develop? honestly, as someone who is completely fine with watching both korean and foreign competition, people give off the impression that i'm doing something wrong or bad by having my own personal viewing preferences and not demanding changes from blizzard when i think the system is fine already.
i just think that a lot of people on the pro-foreigner side of the debates could do with a reality check about the fact that what they want doesn't have to be what everyone wants and isn't somehow morally superior
On April 08 2014 05:18 Waise wrote: this conversation is exactly the same every time. it never changes.
the bottom line is that people want a magical world where if you force enough americans into a tournament they'll start beating koreans. or they want an all-american tournament, but then somehow when all-american tournaments happen outside of WCS no one watches and the production is shitty because everyone knows no one is going to watch so why would they put money into that?
i can't believe this same exact conversation is still happening every single time
Well, that I think, is mixing all sorts of feelings into one general complainer.
1. Growing a solid AM scene will require some serious investments in the AM scene to begin with. Part of this is obviously well produced events on a continuous basis, and not just one off happenings ever 2nd year or so. How about a continental league or national leagues for example? Hey, it could be like WCS AM you know, but with like Canadians, Brazilians, Mexicans and Americans instead of Koreans...! What a novel idea!
2. Not growing an AM scene is probably best done by having shitty production of the only regular events there are, and on top of that, allowing a bunch of players, who never ever practice on the AM ladder, to drop in the AM main, grab all the price money that is offered in the entire double continent, and fly out again asap to continue to practice in Korea.
Ok, so now ESL is taking over the production for this year, which seems like a really good thing. They have done a marvelous job with WCS EU so far imo. I hope it is in their business strategy to build a big interest in the WCS AM all the way from the Canadian polar regions down to the Strait of Magellan. Of course, this will take some time obviously, but I can wait. It is not like the work has to start from scratch in any case, there are good players in NA already. I really enjoyed watching puCK for example in the Bo16, and he was one map away from winning his group.
On April 08 2014 05:18 Waise wrote: this conversation is exactly the same every time. it never changes.
the bottom line is that people want a magical world where if you force enough americans into a tournament they'll start beating koreans. or they want an all-american tournament, but then somehow when all-american tournaments happen outside of WCS no one watches and the production is shitty because everyone knows no one is going to watch so why would they put money into that?
i can't believe this same exact conversation is still happening every single time
Well, that I think, is mixing all sorts of feelings into one general complainer.
1. Growing a solid AM scene will require some serious investments in the AM scene to begin with. Part of this is obviously well produced events on a continuous basis, and not just one off happenings ever 2nd year or so. How about a continental league or national leagues for example? Hey, it could be like WCS AM you know, but with like Canadians, Brazilians, Mexicans and Americans instead of Koreans...! What a novel idea!
2. Not growing an AM scene is probably best done by having shitty production of the only regular events there are, and on top of that, allowing a bunch of players, who never ever practice on the AM ladder, to drop in the AM main, grab all the price money that is offered in the entire double continent, and fly out again asap to continue to practice in Korea.
Ok, so now ESL is taking over the production for this year, which seems like a really good thing. They have done a marvelous job with WCS EU so far imo. I hope it is in their business strategy to build a big interest in the WCS AM all the way from the Canadian polar regions down to the Strait of Magellan. Of course, this will take some time obviously, but I can wait. It is not like the work has to start from scratch in any case, there are good players in NA already. I really enjoyed watching puCK for example in the Bo16, and he was one map away from winning his group.
but what's the motivation to keep "growing the scene" if the viewership isn't there? TB pretty much threw his entire weight into shoutcraft and he openly admitted it wasn't really as successful as it needed to be, isn't that why it ended up being scaled down?
your points about investing in the scene have been made a thousand times over, and they are valid, but esports is an entertainment industry. people are only going to go so far to develop local talent if the money and the viewers aren't cutting it. passion projects are nice and all but they have a tendency to fold easily. to me it's simple cause and effect that WCS, GSL etc continue to succeed because they're what people are willing to watch. what other explanation is there, unless you want to go the conspiracy route and say that blizzard is trying to brainwash us into liking koreans or something?
your theories are fine, it's just who is going to do it? you? me? totalbiscuit? my complaint is about the attitude of entitlement. so many people seem to be saying "wah wah, i want to see americans, someone make an american tournament for me!" without any realistic perspective on what it takes to successfully produce such a tournament
my only real gripe with the ppl who qualified is with arthur. he just force fielded the ramp. i normally don't mind cheese but for some reason his smug and mousy expression after robbing chinese hero toodming from a victory with utter bs made me a huge anti-fan. arthur's wins were gross AND apparently he whines a lot on twitter too. while duckdeoks manly tears were enough to win me over, i think arthur's tears would just be annoying
as for NA being all korean, Polt is LIVING in america. I think most people don't have a problem with koreans actually MOVING to the USA - this gives NA players fantastic practice partners and training opportunities. So Polt is an example of WCS being a success.
and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't WCS america limit the region to people living in the region, and only allowing 2 open spots for people to qualify? the existing koreans already in WCS america got to retain their spots, so that just means NA is complete and utter garbage for not having eliminated them yet. no need to even play macro/standard, they couldn't even pull off successful all-ins to eliminate the koreans? NA players need to step their game up. be glad that they're weeded out in WCS america. If they played in the global final, the slaughter of NA only "champions" versus GSL code S caliber players would be rated M for mature, not suitable for audiences under 18, viewer discretion advised.
On April 08 2014 03:12 TotalBiscuit wrote: Hurrdurr, anything other than glorious proleague masterrace is not worth watching, hurrdurr.
Such an obnoxious attitude.
You can't deny that the level of play is highest in the GSL out of all the WCS tournaments, and while that does not guarantee exciting games by itself, it is a large part of it. And not everyone has the time or the will to watch every single match out there, so a lot of people focus on the big-name games solely because playstyles and personalities aside, at least they can expect a certain level of play. I'm not saying that lesser known and lesser skilled players cannot play exciting and technically proficient matches, it's just that going with top-of-the-line pros gives a better chance for those few matches that you may only have time for to be worth it. So I'd say it's a perfectly reasonable attitude to have, and that you're simply overreacting and making it sound worse than it is.
Thing is, the guy came across as fairly ignorant/disrespectful by disregarding this ro8 competition as pointless. Not so much as a person pressed for time and choosing the overall superior league. I'd go with gsl and spl 9/10 as well if it came down to it, but I can still distinguish top-tier skill seen in lesser leagues.
On April 08 2014 05:18 Waise wrote: this conversation is exactly the same every time. it never changes.
the bottom line is that people want a magical world where if you force enough americans into a tournament they'll start beating koreans. or they want an all-american tournament, but then somehow when all-american tournaments happen outside of WCS no one watches and the production is shitty because everyone knows no one is going to watch so why would they put money into that?
i can't believe this same exact conversation is still happening every single time
Well, that I think, is mixing all sorts of feelings into one general complainer.
1. Growing a solid AM scene will require some serious investments in the AM scene to begin with. Part of this is obviously well produced events on a continuous basis, and not just one off happenings ever 2nd year or so. How about a continental league or national leagues for example? Hey, it could be like WCS AM you know, but with like Canadians, Brazilians, Mexicans and Americans instead of Koreans...! What a novel idea!
2. Not growing an AM scene is probably best done by having shitty production of the only regular events there are, and on top of that, allowing a bunch of players, who never ever practice on the AM ladder, to drop in the AM main, grab all the price money that is offered in the entire double continent, and fly out again asap to continue to practice in Korea.
Ok, so now ESL is taking over the production for this year, which seems like a really good thing. They have done a marvelous job with WCS EU so far imo. I hope it is in their business strategy to build a big interest in the WCS AM all the way from the Canadian polar regions down to the Strait of Magellan. Of course, this will take some time obviously, but I can wait. It is not like the work has to start from scratch in any case, there are good players in NA already. I really enjoyed watching puCK for example in the Bo16, and he was one map away from winning his group.
but what's the motivation to keep "growing the scene" if the viewership isn't there? TB pretty much threw his entire weight into shoutcraft and he openly admitted it wasn't really as successful as it needed to be, isn't that why it ended up being scaled down?
your points about investing in the scene have been made a thousand times over, and they are valid, but esports is an entertainment industry. people are only going to go so far to develop local talent if the money and the viewers aren't cutting it. passion projects are nice and all but they have a tendency to fold easily. to me it's simple cause and effect that WCS, GSL etc continue to succeed because they're what people are willing to watch. what other explanation is there, unless you want to go the conspiracy route and say that blizzard is trying to brainwash us into liking koreans or something?
your theories are fine, it's just who is going to do it? you? me? totalbiscuit? my complaint is about the attitude of entitlement. so many people seem to be saying "wah wah, i want to see americans, someone make an american tournament for me!" without any realistic perspective on what it takes to successfully produce such a tournament
Yeah, welcome to the SC2 community, a place where most of our discussions are really only a select few that we keep bringing up and rehashing and reiterating on a monthly basis even though the arguments remain the same and the conclusion (or lack thereof) remains the same. Also a place where the general consensus is extremely bipolar and where there will be at least one person who has something to complain about in any given circumstance ever.
I'll give it to you though, you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned entitlement. Indeed, if this is what people want, surely they could do something to make such an event happen, rather than whine on TL about it for the 9001st time? But then even if they do, we'll probably get 50 more pages of "wah wah this event didn't get 50k concurrent viewers, sc2 ded gaem" so I'm not sure if it's entirely worth it. Players would benefit from it though, so there's that at least. ^^
I personally don't see the culture in the US being a good place to develop StarCraft players. Artosis mentioned this about Hearthstone, but it is true here too. The money is enough that some people could try to play, but not nearly enough to get enough people focusing on it to have a big enough pool of talent to find and develop stars.
From the numbers I just wiki'd (which may not be precise) the Korean median household income is $26k US while the US median income is $51k US.
StarCraft has been around 3 and a half years so pretty much anybody who hasn't made $175k off of it has just been falling behind other North Americans. (that isn't to say there aren't reasons to play) Now I'm guessing Huk and Idra with the EG money probably have done that and I wouldn't be surprised if the other people to have made that much over the period are actually casters of the Huskey or Day 9 variety. You also look at how your career is going to be relatively short and at the end of it you are going to be behind the rest of your peers in earning potential in general. Its just not something that is going to work out in the US under the US's culture.
Travel to Korea and realize that you need to make about half of that to stay on par and there is much more incentive.
To break it down another way, 172 people were able to participate per season in the WCS leagues. There was $1.6 million in total prizes given out of the entire year. This comes out to $9302 per person for the year.
Then you take into account these things:
1) Prize pools are top heavy so the top 20 players for the year probably made over 90% of the money, the other 180 or so players lived off way less than $9302. 2) Players do have salaries and/or benefits from being part of a team in addition to prize money, but how many teams pay well enough to make up the difference?
Compare this to working part time (20 hours a week) for minimum wage and making $7540 in a year while having time to go to school and put yourself into a position where you will be making over median household income by yourself in 4 years? Or practice 60+ hours a week at StarCraft so you can make less than minimum wage and not advance yourself in any other way.
Thresh became worth 9 figures (well probably 8 after taxes?) by riding his Doom winnings into a game review company into selling it for over $100 million. Most of the rest of the first progaming generation moved onto things like Poker (Grrr, Elky, Pillars), Law School (Maynard), or work for game development companies in some fashion (Zileas, Pillars). As soon as American 10 year olds can see some 16 year old from their local high school win $250k in an online tournament you will see many more motivated and wanting to go into it. For now...you are going to see people who come from places where making $10k can be okay.
Why does Europe seem to do a bit better with developing people? Good question...It isn't opportunity or talent (read the book Outliers) but maybe less total distractions or options. Perhaps more school functions, extracurricular activity options in with popularity in the US of swimming, baseball, hockey, football, basketball, and soccer and the importance that so many put on school sports teams, but its hard to say.
I found WCS America to be interesting and watched both days this past weekend. There were some Americans that did fine, but nothing like the Europeans. I do still like watching players like Bomber and Polt a lot and way more than watching 99% of the Kespa crew. However, nothing is quite as interesting as watching Nada vs Bomber in the round of 8 or Idra vs Jinro in the round of 8...or when Huk and Idra were making deep runs in MLG with Koreans over. We just aren't likely to get much of that anymore as its about dedication and practice environment at this point and that is not practical for people from the US really.
On April 08 2014 03:31 Mentalo wrote: why are these wcs tours called america / europe... its just hilarious... i wouldnt watch uefa champions league either with only korean teams. these players are no americans / europeans and they dont deserve to play and dominate an other region than korea. just for the reason they have no chance at their home region
Yeah because only Europeans play in EU football clubs...
There are minimum quotas for the number of "home" players in EU football clubs. You can't have, say, a team of all Brazilians competing in the Champion's league.
Yes, and at the start of the season they implemented the soft-region lock to guarantee a certain number of AM/CHN/SEA players being seeded into the league. If all the NA players lose and don't advance, I don't see what else could be done.
On April 08 2014 03:31 Mentalo wrote: why are these wcs tours called america / europe... its just hilarious... i wouldnt watch uefa champions league either with only korean teams. these players are no americans / europeans and they dont deserve to play and dominate an other region than korea. just for the reason they have no chance at their home region
Yeah because only Europeans play in EU football clubs...
There are minimum quotas for the number of "home" players in EU football clubs. You can't have, say, a team of all Brazilians competing in the Champion's league.
Yes, and at the start of the season they implemented the soft-region lock to guarantee a certain number of AM/CHN/SEA players being seeded into the league. If all the NA players lose and don't advance, I don't see what else could be done.
have faith in neeb, pretty sure he will make to at least ro8 next season
On April 08 2014 03:31 Mentalo wrote: why are these wcs tours called america / europe... its just hilarious... i wouldnt watch uefa champions league either with only korean teams. these players are no americans / europeans and they dont deserve to play and dominate an other region than korea. just for the reason they have no chance at their home region
Yeah because only Europeans play in EU football clubs...
There are minimum quotas for the number of "home" players in EU football clubs. You can't have, say, a team of all Brazilians competing in the Champion's league.
Yes, and at the start of the season they implemented the soft-region lock to guarantee a certain number of AM/CHN/SEA players being seeded into the league. If all the NA players lose and don't advance, I don't see what else could be done.
have faith in neeb, pretty sure he will make to at least ro8 next season
I've been burned by foreign terran hype trains before.
I don't agree with a blanket "kick Koreans out of AM" because that closes the doors on Korean Americans/Canadians that deserve the spot just as much as their white classmates. What if Polt and Taeja applied for naturalization and became Americans? Would they still continue to be shunned as "Koreans playing in AM" even when they fly around the globe with American passports, or would they win the praise of all these naysayers as the ones who truly became American heroes? What if the next American 16-yr-old prodigy after Neeb was someone born and raised in the USA, but just happened to have parents of Korean origin? Would the kid be considered Korean though every legal document screams American? You can even look at figure skating - I think most people accept Patrick Chan as Canadian, despite his parents being of Chinese origin. Or go back 2 decades - Christie Yamaguchi won gold for the USA and Americans were happy for her, but her last name and appearance clearly are of Japanese origin.
That said, I think it would be a good idea to implement a residency/citizenship requirement in order for KR to compete in EU/AM (and vice versa). Like, you must have lived in your competing region for over a year and you must be a current legal resident (student/work visa/permanent resident/citizen) to qualify, kinda thing. Wasn't there a system of that sort for soccer/football to qualify as a World Cup country rep? That, or at least put up a language requirement like you need to speak English well enough to conduct in-depth interviews and communicate well with the fans without a translator to compete in NA. I'm figuring people being more accepting of Polt has something to do with the fact that the man can talk to us in English, though occasionally stumbling for words.
Okay so I haven't really followed sc2 all that much recently but I can't understand why koreans are in 'WCS America', it may as well be called 'WCS Korea' lol..if someone could explain or send a link explaining how this works I'd appreciate it!
On April 08 2014 08:09 inSighTsc2 wrote: Okay so I haven't really followed sc2 all that much recently but I can't understand why koreans are in 'WCS America', it may as well be called 'WCS Korea' lol..if someone could explain or send a link explaining how this works I'd appreciate it!
you have to travel to america. the tournament is held in america. that's what makes it WCS america, it's not "a tournament for americans" as some would have you believe. (the obvious exception is how it's in europe this year because the NA organization collapsed)
koreans figured out the investment in traveling to america could be worth the payoff because they gain foreign exposure and compete against a weaker level of competition overall
On April 08 2014 08:09 inSighTsc2 wrote: Okay so I haven't really followed sc2 all that much recently but I can't understand why koreans are in 'WCS America', it may as well be called 'WCS Korea' lol..if someone could explain or send a link explaining how this works I'd appreciate it!
you have to travel to america. the tournament is held in america. that's what makes it WCS america, it's not "a tournament for americans" as some would have you believe. (the obvious exception is how it's in europe this year because the NA organization collapsed)
koreans figured out the investment in traveling to america could be worth the payoff because they gain foreign exposure and compete against a weaker level of competition overall
simple as that
not really weaker since all the mostly koreans will get to ro8 anyway. If anything WCS AM is just as competitive as KR once foreigners are knocked out. no offense to americans Taeja Polt Bomber Hyun is slightly weaker than Zest soO LIFUUU and Rain, also jjakji Stardust MMA San
On April 08 2014 08:09 inSighTsc2 wrote: Okay so I haven't really followed sc2 all that much recently but I can't understand why koreans are in 'WCS America', it may as well be called 'WCS Korea' lol..if someone could explain or send a link explaining how this works I'd appreciate it!
you have to travel to america. the tournament is held in america. that's what makes it WCS america, it's not "a tournament for americans" as some would have you believe. (the obvious exception is how it's in europe this year because the NA organization collapsed)
koreans figured out the investment in traveling to america could be worth the payoff because they gain foreign exposure and compete against a weaker level of competition overall
simple as that
not really weaker since all the mostly koreans will get to ro8 anyway. If anything WCS AM is just as competitive as KR once foreigners are knocked out. no offense to americans
yeah but in KR you have to go through a lot more very high level players, so the qualifiers and early rounds are more competitive. this means a lower chance of advancing to the later rounds as opposed to WCS AM where if you're a taeja, polt, bomber, hyun you're almost guaranteed ro8. that's all i meant
On April 08 2014 03:31 Mentalo wrote: why are these wcs tours called america / europe... its just hilarious... i wouldnt watch uefa champions league either with only korean teams. these players are no americans / europeans and they dont deserve to play and dominate an other region than korea. just for the reason they have no chance at their home region
Yeah because only Europeans play in EU football clubs...
There are minimum quotas for the number of "home" players in EU football clubs. You can't have, say, a team of all Brazilians competing in the Champion's league.
Yes, and at the start of the season they implemented the soft-region lock to guarantee a certain number of AM/CHN/SEA players being seeded into the league. If all the NA players lose and don't advance, I don't see what else could be done.
have faith in neeb, pretty sure he will make to at least ro8 next season
I've been burned by foreign terran hype trains before.
theres a bunch more players who are better than Neeb that didnt make it into Ro8 this Season...so not sure if Neeb can...
LiquidHero, AcerScarlett, igJim, EG JAEDONG
just to name a few...so its very hard to make it into Ro8
On April 07 2014 17:58 esdf wrote: NA qualis now officially a career restart point for shitty hasbeen koreans.
Bomber, Polt, Tajea, HyuN.
Shitty hasbeen Koreans. The level of What-the-fuck here is beyond imagination, please manner-up.
Talking about the other half of the bracket. Would prefer shitty neverbeen americans to hasbeens. Blizzard really needs to do something with who's allowed and who's not allowed to participate in each region.
It's not Blizzard's problem to fix.
If the best North America has to offer can't even compete with "has been" Koreans then what the fuck is the point of giving them tickets to Blizzcon?
Honestly answer that for me? Other than wanting to just make sure that the Foreigners get a bigger slice of the Prize pool pie that they haven't earned, what is the point of sending them to the higher tournaments only so they can get crushed by the top tier Koreans.
On April 07 2014 17:58 esdf wrote: NA qualis now officially a career restart point for shitty hasbeen koreans.
Bomber, Polt, Tajea, HyuN.
Shitty hasbeen Koreans. The level of What-the-fuck here is beyond imagination, please manner-up.
Talking about the other half of the bracket. Would prefer shitty neverbeen americans to hasbeens. Blizzard really needs to do something with who's allowed and who's not allowed to participate in each region.
It's not Blizzard's problem to fix.
If the best North America has to offer can't even compete with "has been" Koreans then what the fuck is the point of giving them tickets to Blizzcon?
Honestly answer that for me? Other than wanting to just make sure that the Foreigners get a bigger slice of the Prize pool pie that they haven't earned, what is the point of sending them to the higher tournaments only so they can get crushed by the top tier Koreans.
How many NA players are actually making money worth mentioning, via SC 2? If you're not making money, you have to find other avenues. If you're not going to increase the amount of NA players who can devote the time to the game, as you would another job, then how are you supposed to catch up to the Koreans who are already better, when the game is already a viable job to them?
WCS AM only hurts NA players' chances of being able to compete at the level of Koreans. We're now relying on talented kids who are still going to school, while facing Koreans who are only tasked with playing SC 2... That's our best bet due to the lack of opportunities Blizzard provides NA players who need something they can call a job.
On April 07 2014 17:58 esdf wrote: NA qualis now officially a career restart point for shitty hasbeen koreans.
Bomber, Polt, Tajea, HyuN.
Shitty hasbeen Koreans. The level of What-the-fuck here is beyond imagination, please manner-up.
Talking about the other half of the bracket. Would prefer shitty neverbeen americans to hasbeens. Blizzard really needs to do something with who's allowed and who's not allowed to participate in each region.
It's not Blizzard's problem to fix.
If the best North America has to offer can't even compete with "has been" Koreans then what the fuck is the point of giving them tickets to Blizzcon?
Honestly answer that for me? Other than wanting to just make sure that the Foreigners get a bigger slice of the Prize pool pie that they haven't earned, what is the point of sending them to the higher tournaments only so they can get crushed by the top tier Koreans.
How many NA players are actually making money worth mentioning, via SC 2? If you're not making money, you have to find other avenues. If you're not going to increase the amount of NA players who can devote the time to the game, as you would another job, then how are you supposed to catch up to the Koreans who are already better, when the game is already a viable job to them?
WCS AM only hurts NA players' chances of being able to compete at the level of Koreans. We're now relying on talented kids who are still going to school, while facing Koreans who are only tasked with playing SC 2... That's our best bet due to the lack of opportunities Blizzard provides NA players who need something they can call a job.
that still doesn't refute what he said. it's not blizzard's problem to fix. why do they need to support the NA scene better? if it were profitable, they would already be doing it. can you explain why blizzard owes something specifically to NA players? do you feel that because blizzard employees and executives are from north america, they are somehow morally obliged to help people who are also from north america rather than doing what any business would do?
yes, the cultural infrastructure is different here. i get that and i see your point. but if blizzard is doing just fine supporting the system in place, and a profitable majority of viewers is still interested in koreans (i sure am!), where is the impetus you're suggesting exists? because all i'm hearing is still "i want to see NA players, help NA! put money into NA so i can see people from my landmass win!" you put it more eloquently, but logically i don't see how it's any different.
if it's hard to succeed as a pro SC2 player in NA, well... tough fucking shit, do something else? sorry, not trying to get BM with you, but we're not talking about being a doctor or a fireman here. it's a video game.
On April 07 2014 17:58 esdf wrote: NA qualis now officially a career restart point for shitty hasbeen koreans.
Bomber, Polt, Tajea, HyuN.
Shitty hasbeen Koreans. The level of What-the-fuck here is beyond imagination, please manner-up.
Talking about the other half of the bracket. Would prefer shitty neverbeen americans to hasbeens. Blizzard really needs to do something with who's allowed and who's not allowed to participate in each region.
It's not Blizzard's problem to fix.
If the best North America has to offer can't even compete with "has been" Koreans then what the fuck is the point of giving them tickets to Blizzcon?
Honestly answer that for me? Other than wanting to just make sure that the Foreigners get a bigger slice of the Prize pool pie that they haven't earned, what is the point of sending them to the higher tournaments only so they can get crushed by the top tier Koreans.
How many NA players are actually making money worth mentioning, via SC 2? If you're not making money, you have to find other avenues. If you're not going to increase the amount of NA players who can devote the time to the game, as you would another job, then how are you supposed to catch up to the Koreans who are already better, when the game is already a viable job to them?
WCS AM only hurts NA players' chances of being able to compete at the level of Koreans. We're now relying on talented kids who are still going to school, while facing Koreans who are only tasked with playing SC 2... That's our best bet due to the lack of opportunities Blizzard provides NA players who need something they can call a job.
Your reasoning is a problem because you seem to think WCS is supposed to be a Life Support IV for foreign competition in place of actual legitimate competition.
NA's problem is that it has no sustainable region locked tournament like Europe does. European pros are doing fine because they have their own battlegrounds that are isolated to compete in whereas NA doesn't.
That's not what WCS is for. It never has been. WCS is about crowning a Global Champion. WCS is about creating a Superbowl style title that is supposed to reign above other tournaments. It's supposed to be the end goal, the top of the pyramid.
The real problem here is that North America can't develop and sustain for itself its own competition. When NA tournaments do come around no one watches them or complain incessantly about how bad the games are.
If the fans like you that want a better NA scene really care about it they'll put their money where their big ass mouths are. Disable adblock, support NA only teams and watch the fucking tournaments that DO come around. Stop whining about it on forums like it's someone else's job to support the players that YOU want to succeed.
On April 08 2014 09:32 Vindicare605 wrote: Honestly answer that for me? Other than wanting to just make sure that the Foreigners get a bigger slice of the Prize pool pie that they haven't earned, what is the point of sending them to the higher tournaments only so they can get crushed by the top tier Koreans.
This. I don't get why people are upset about this. The worst thing possible would be a bunch of walkovers in the final. At least Koreans bring high quality games and if foreigners can't compete on the highest level they don't belong there.
I issue this challenge to anyone that claims they actually care about NA competition.
MLG Anaheim is in 2 months. Watch it. Hype it up. Disable fucking ad block and sit through the ads so that MLG can actually make some money and do another tournament. (OMG PAINFUL) Like their sponsors on social media and write to them about how much you appreciate their support of Starcraft 2.
And for the love of god don't talk shit about how bad the players are, stop fucking rioting when players like Bubbles win over your more popular guys with legit fucking strategy. Have some actual fucking support for the guys who play under the Canadian and American flags.
On April 08 2014 03:31 Mentalo wrote: why are these wcs tours called america / europe... its just hilarious... i wouldnt watch uefa champions league either with only korean teams. these players are no americans / europeans and they dont deserve to play and dominate an other region than korea. just for the reason they have no chance at their home region
Yeah because only Europeans play in EU football clubs...
There are minimum quotas for the number of "home" players in EU football clubs. You can't have, say, a team of all Brazilians competing in the Champion's league.
Yes, and at the start of the season they implemented the soft-region lock to guarantee a certain number of AM/CHN/SEA players being seeded into the league. If all the NA players lose and don't advance, I don't see what else could be done.
have faith in neeb, pretty sure he will make to at least ro8 next season
I've been burned by foreign terran hype trains before.
theres a bunch more players who are better than Neeb that didnt make it into Ro8 this Season...so not sure if Neeb can...
LiquidHero, AcerScarlett, igJim, EG JAEDONG
just to name a few...so its very hard to make it into Ro8
upsets are not common...
none of those players u mentioned is even half-consistent (hero wins cologne then loses next 10 pvps in a row). wont be surprised if same thing happened again. also jaedong isnt as good if u watching his stream, its like he turned into a different player omg. no more donguuuu or heruuuu
Protoss needs to win. Their win streak in premiere tournaments can't end! They already have the best streak of any race in the history of sc2 I'd love to see it get even longer.
On April 07 2014 17:58 esdf wrote: NA qualis now officially a career restart point for shitty hasbeen koreans.
Bomber, Polt, Tajea, HyuN.
Shitty hasbeen Koreans. The level of What-the-fuck here is beyond imagination, please manner-up.
Talking about the other half of the bracket. Would prefer shitty neverbeen americans to hasbeens. Blizzard really needs to do something with who's allowed and who's not allowed to participate in each region.
It's not Blizzard's problem to fix.
If the best North America has to offer can't even compete with "has been" Koreans then what the fuck is the point of giving them tickets to Blizzcon?
Honestly answer that for me? Other than wanting to just make sure that the Foreigners get a bigger slice of the Prize pool pie that they haven't earned, what is the point of sending them to the higher tournaments only so they can get crushed by the top tier Koreans.
How many NA players are actually making money worth mentioning, via SC 2? If you're not making money, you have to find other avenues. If you're not going to increase the amount of NA players who can devote the time to the game, as you would another job, then how are you supposed to catch up to the Koreans who are already better, when the game is already a viable job to them?
WCS AM only hurts NA players' chances of being able to compete at the level of Koreans. We're now relying on talented kids who are still going to school, while facing Koreans who are only tasked with playing SC 2... That's our best bet due to the lack of opportunities Blizzard provides NA players who need something they can call a job.
Your reasoning is a problem because you seem to think WCS is supposed to be a Life Support IV for foreign competition in place of actual legitimate competition.
NA's problem is that it has no sustainable region locked tournament like Europe does. European pros are doing fine because they have their own battlegrounds that are isolated to compete in whereas NA doesn't.
That's not what WCS is for. It never has been. WCS is about crowning a Global Champion. WCS is about creating a Superbowl style title that is supposed to reign above other tournaments. It's supposed to be the end goal, the top of the pyramid.
The real problem here is that North America can't develop and sustain for itself its own competition. When NA tournaments do come around no one watches them or complain incessantly about how bad the games are.
If the fans like you that want a better NA scene really care about it they'll put their money where their big ass mouths are. Disable adblock, support NA only teams and watch the fucking tournaments that DO come around. Stop whining about it on forums like it's someone else's job to support the players that YOU want to succeed.
Couldn't have put it better myself. All I care about is good players being rewarded, so the more Koreans, the better as far as I'm concerned.
What a sick RO8 lineup. And a TvT finals is not only possible but probable?! Daaamn. I'm thinking Bomber vs. Polt. Bomber's TvT is great and Taeja's not in the best shape of his career. No idea who wins though.
On April 07 2014 17:58 esdf wrote: NA qualis now officially a career restart point for shitty hasbeen koreans.
Bomber, Polt, Tajea, HyuN.
Shitty hasbeen Koreans. The level of What-the-fuck here is beyond imagination, please manner-up.
Talking about the other half of the bracket. Would prefer shitty neverbeen americans to hasbeens. Blizzard really needs to do something with who's allowed and who's not allowed to participate in each region.
It's not Blizzard's problem to fix.
If the best North America has to offer can't even compete with "has been" Koreans then what the fuck is the point of giving them tickets to Blizzcon?
Honestly answer that for me? Other than wanting to just make sure that the Foreigners get a bigger slice of the Prize pool pie that they haven't earned, what is the point of sending them to the higher tournaments only so they can get crushed by the top tier Koreans.
How many NA players are actually making money worth mentioning, via SC 2? If you're not making money, you have to find other avenues. If you're not going to increase the amount of NA players who can devote the time to the game, as you would another job, then how are you supposed to catch up to the Koreans who are already better, when the game is already a viable job to them?
WCS AM only hurts NA players' chances of being able to compete at the level of Koreans. We're now relying on talented kids who are still going to school, while facing Koreans who are only tasked with playing SC 2... That's our best bet due to the lack of opportunities Blizzard provides NA players who need something they can call a job.
Obviously the exact figures aren't public but I'd be suprised if korean players like Arthur, Oz, Revival, Alicia, Heart or Crank are payed significantly more than a lot of foreigners. But these koreans are still consistently beating foreigner because they are just better players. No amount of money will change that.
On April 07 2014 17:58 esdf wrote: NA qualis now officially a career restart point for shitty hasbeen koreans.
Bomber, Polt, Tajea, HyuN.
Shitty hasbeen Koreans. The level of What-the-fuck here is beyond imagination, please manner-up.
Talking about the other half of the bracket. Would prefer shitty neverbeen americans to hasbeens. Blizzard really needs to do something with who's allowed and who's not allowed to participate in each region.
It's not Blizzard's problem to fix.
If the best North America has to offer can't even compete with "has been" Koreans then what the fuck is the point of giving them tickets to Blizzcon?
Honestly answer that for me? Other than wanting to just make sure that the Foreigners get a bigger slice of the Prize pool pie that they haven't earned, what is the point of sending them to the higher tournaments only so they can get crushed by the top tier Koreans.
How many NA players are actually making money worth mentioning, via SC 2? If you're not making money, you have to find other avenues. If you're not going to increase the amount of NA players who can devote the time to the game, as you would another job, then how are you supposed to catch up to the Koreans who are already better, when the game is already a viable job to them?
WCS AM only hurts NA players' chances of being able to compete at the level of Koreans. We're now relying on talented kids who are still going to school, while facing Koreans who are only tasked with playing SC 2... That's our best bet due to the lack of opportunities Blizzard provides NA players who need something they can call a job.
Your reasoning is a problem because you seem to think WCS is supposed to be a Life Support IV for foreign competition in place of actual legitimate competition.
NA's problem is that it has no sustainable region locked tournament like Europe does. European pros are doing fine because they have their own battlegrounds that are isolated to compete in whereas NA doesn't.
That's not what WCS is for. It never has been. WCS is about crowning a Global Champion. WCS is about creating a Superbowl style title that is supposed to reign above other tournaments. It's supposed to be the end goal, the top of the pyramid.
The real problem here is that North America can't develop and sustain for itself its own competition. When NA tournaments do come around no one watches them or complain incessantly about how bad the games are.
If the fans like you that want a better NA scene really care about it they'll put their money where their big ass mouths are. Disable adblock, support NA only teams and watch the fucking tournaments that DO come around. Stop whining about it on forums like it's someone else's job to support the players that YOU want to succeed.
Lol? Pretty much the only reason I got into SC in 2012 was because WCS was about regional competition. The glory days were when you could watch Huk vs Scarlett and it seemed relevant/important. This whole crowning the world champion thing has NOTHING what-so-ever to do with whether WCS AM, etc are truly region locked or not. It's like saying the best players in the world won't end up getting gold in the Olympics if they allowed some people from the Special Olympics to occupy some spots...
I'm not saying it's anyones responsibility. I'm just saying it's silly to shit on NA players or act like you're doing them a favor when you're the sole reason behind creating where we are at now. If you care about the NA scene growing, then you should do things that make sense, when it comes to actually growing the scene.
SC 2 has gone nothing but downhill since the changes to WCS. It must be a magical coincidence that the novelty wore off at that precise moment.
They have gone from crowning both the best regional player and best player, overall, to having no regional champions and making you wonder whether the WCS KR champion is just as deserving as the winner at the end of the year (if they are different players).
Accomplishing 2 things is better than 1. You guys that buy into rhetoric with no substance behind it are also part of the problem. You think MLG would have agreed to be apart of WCS if Koreans weren't allowed? You guys are gullible and silly for not understanding why these regions have become a farce.
On April 08 2014 10:57 Vindicare605 wrote: And nothing Playa said made any sense.
Best retort of all time? Since you're such a sensible guy, what should Blizzard do? Keep it exactly the same, since things are prospering so much? Enlighten me.
On April 08 2014 10:57 Vindicare605 wrote: And nothing Playa said made any sense.
Best retort of all time? Since you're such a sensible guy, what should Blizzard do? Keep it exactly the same, since things are prospering so much? Enlighten me.
This is your argument in a nutshell.
1. Blizzard created this situation. 2. This situation is bad. 3. Blizzard is responsible for fixing this situation.
1. is wrong because, as most people learn in high school, correlation does not mean causation. Your statement of "coincidence?! I think not!!!" is worthless. There are plenty of other factors that have a hand in SC2's decline in popularity, and you do nothing to prove that the one you list is more significant than the rest.
2. is wrong for very obvious reasons. Not everyone shares your opinion.
3. no they aren't. They have no obligation to anyone to do anything. But as long as they're running a world championship series, I do expect them to feel obligated to make it a world championship series. That means anyone who doesn't deserve to be there should be cut long, long before. If that means 100% Koreans, so be it.
On April 08 2014 10:57 Vindicare605 wrote: And nothing Playa said made any sense.
Best retort of all time? Since you're such a sensible guy, what should Blizzard do? Keep it exactly the same, since things are prospering so much? Enlighten me.
This is your argument in a nutshell.
1. Blizzard created this situation. 2. This situation is bad. 3. Blizzard is responsible for fixing this situation.
1. is wrong because, as most people learn in high school, correlation does not mean causation. Your statement of "coincidence?! I think not!!!" is worthless. There are plenty of other factors that have a hand in SC2's decline in popularity, and you do nothing to prove that the one you list is more significant than the rest.
2. is wrong for very obvious reasons. Not everyone shares your opinion.
3. no they aren't. They have no obligation to anyone to do anything. But as long as they're running a world championship series, I do expect them to feel obligated to make it a world championship series. That means anyone who doesn't deserve to be there should be cut long, long before. If that means 100% Koreans, so be it.
The most watched thing ever was the 2008 Summer Olympics. When you think of the Olympics, do you not think of it as a world championship? No one f'ing cares whether the best swimmers are all American and only 5 end up making the American team to be there. People want to actually see their countrymen versus other countries.
If one country is the best, bar none... Hey, guess what... you don't even need a world championship... The KR regional finals would already show you who the best player is.
People are supposed to be thrilled to tune in to watch a lot of ex bw pros continue their advantage into SC 2, where they barely speak any English, and they can't relate to them in any way? Have fun with that premise. Truth of the matter is, this game is horrible to watch in comparison to BW. Good graphics or not, this game is nothing in comparison. The only mu that could be considered better is P vs P, yet everyone hates that mu in SC 2. People don't normally watch SC 2 in awe like they do BW pros, due to the lower mechanical ability needed. If there were ever a time to not ignore what the majority of people prefer to watch, it would be now...
What we're doing is basically celebrating the fact that there are more Koreans able to practice 14 hours a day than non Koreans, while the viewers are telling you they don't f'ing care and they would prefer to see people from their country have the same opportunities.
On April 07 2014 17:58 esdf wrote: NA qualis now officially a career restart point for shitty hasbeen koreans.
Bomber, Polt, Tajea, HyuN.
Shitty hasbeen Koreans. The level of What-the-fuck here is beyond imagination, please manner-up.
Talking about the other half of the bracket. Would prefer shitty neverbeen americans to hasbeens. Blizzard really needs to do something with who's allowed and who's not allowed to participate in each region.
It's not Blizzard's problem to fix.
If the best North America has to offer can't even compete with "has been" Koreans then what the fuck is the point of giving them tickets to Blizzcon?
Honestly answer that for me? Other than wanting to just make sure that the Foreigners get a bigger slice of the Prize pool pie that they haven't earned, what is the point of sending them to the higher tournaments only so they can get crushed by the top tier Koreans.
How many NA players are actually making money worth mentioning, via SC 2? If you're not making money, you have to find other avenues. If you're not going to increase the amount of NA players who can devote the time to the game, as you would another job, then how are you supposed to catch up to the Koreans who are already better, when the game is already a viable job to them?
WCS AM only hurts NA players' chances of being able to compete at the level of Koreans. We're now relying on talented kids who are still going to school, while facing Koreans who are only tasked with playing SC 2... That's our best bet due to the lack of opportunities Blizzard provides NA players who need something they can call a job.
Obviously the exact figures aren't public but I'd be suprised if korean players like Arthur, Oz, Revival, Alicia, Heart or Crank are payed significantly more than a lot of foreigners. But these koreans are still consistently beating foreigner because they are just better players. No amount of money will change that.
I don't know...I would say that Huk was way better than them before he got his EG money...so perhaps money does change it.
On April 08 2014 10:57 Vindicare605 wrote: And nothing Playa said made any sense.
Best retort of all time? Since you're such a sensible guy, what should Blizzard do? Keep it exactly the same, since things are prospering so much? Enlighten me.
This is your argument in a nutshell.
1. Blizzard created this situation. 2. This situation is bad. 3. Blizzard is responsible for fixing this situation.
1. is wrong because, as most people learn in high school, correlation does not mean causation. Your statement of "coincidence?! I think not!!!" is worthless. There are plenty of other factors that have a hand in SC2's decline in popularity, and you do nothing to prove that the one you list is more significant than the rest.
2. is wrong for very obvious reasons. Not everyone shares your opinion.
3. no they aren't. They have no obligation to anyone to do anything. But as long as they're running a world championship series, I do expect them to feel obligated to make it a world championship series. That means anyone who doesn't deserve to be there should be cut long, long before. If that means 100% Koreans, so be it.
The most watched thing ever was the 2008 Summer Olympics. When you think of the Olympics, do you not think of it as a world championship? No one f'ing cares whether the best swimmers are all American and only 5 end up making the American team to be there. People want to actually see their countrymen versus other countries.
If one country is the best, bar none... Hey, guess what... you don't even need a world championship... The KR regional finals would already show you who the best player is.
People are supposed to be thrilled to tune in to watch a lot of ex bw pros continue their advantage into SC 2, where they barely speak any English, and they can't relate to them in any way? Have fun with that premise. Truth of the matter is, this game is horrible to watch in comparison to BW. Good graphics or not, this game is nothing in comparison. The only mu that could be considered better is P vs P, yet everyone hates that mu in SC 2. People don't normally watch SC 2 in awe like they do BW pros, due to the lower mechanical ability needed. If there were ever a time to not ignore what the majority of people prefer to watch, it would be now...
What we're doing is basically celebrating the fact that there are more Koreans able to practice 14 hours a day than non Koreans, while the viewers are telling you they don't f'ing care and they would prefer to see people from their country have the same opportunities.
And that's why the only good WCS is the first WCS.
On April 08 2014 11:26 playa wrote:The most watched thing ever was the 2008 Summer Olympics. When you think of the Olympics, do you not think of it as a world championship? No one f'ing cares whether the best swimmers are all American and only 5 end up making the American team to be there. People want to actually see their countrymen versus other countries.
You know who watched the Olympics? My mom. Would my mom have watched the Olympics if Canada/Russia weren't competing? Not a chance.
You know who didn't watch WCS? My mom. Would my mom have watched WCS if there were more players from Canada/Russia? Not a chance.
Olympics and WCS have wildly different demographics and goals. You can't just take the PR strategy of one and apply it to the other and expect it to work. If GSL sucks for two seasons in a row, less people will subscribe to the next one. If Olympics hockey sucks for two seasons in a row, you think hockey fans aren't going to tune in to the third one? Lol. The modern Olympics has over a hundred years of rep, and is a multibillion dollar industry. You think SC2 can market itself the same way? I laugh at the notion.
If one country is the best, bar none... Hey, guess what... you don't even need a world championship... The KR regional finals would already show you who the best player is.
As it stands, we don't need your kind of world championship. The reason the KR regional finals aren't enough is there aren't enough events for all the high quality Korean players to get the publicity they deserve. They keep knocking each other out off-camera. By spreading them out over three regions, we get the best of both worlds: we give them the exposure they deserve, and IF a foreigner happens to get good enough to challenge them, there is an obvious way to do so -- the WCS system is perfectly competent for letting foreigners get as far as their skill will allow.
Your beef is that there are very few such foreigners. Sucks, but there you go. It's not Blizzard's, or WCS's, job to change that. That's up to local sponsors and local tournaments.
People are supposed to be thrilled to tune in to watch a lot of ex bw pros continue their advantage into SC 2, where they barely speak any English, and they can't relate to them in any way? Have fun with that premise. Truth of the matter is, this game is horrible to watch in comparison to BW. Good graphics or not, this game is nothing in comparison. The only mu that could be considered better is P vs P, yet everyone hates that mu in SC 2. People don't normally watch SC 2 in awe like they do BW pros, due to the lower mechanical ability needed. If there were ever a time to not ignore what the majority of people prefer to watch, it would be now...
What we're doing is basically celebrating the fact that there are more Koreans able to practice 14 hours a day than non Koreans, while the viewers are telling you they don't f'ing care and they would prefer to see people from their country have the same opportunities.
See, this is what makes Vindicare dismiss you. You start quasi-promisingly by implying that because SC2 is such a poor game, the only way it can sustain itself is by appealing to base nationalistic pride... but then you throw that out the window to suggest that people who practice more shouldn't win more.
Yes. The WCS is there to celebrate people who are better at this game. Whether that's through raw talent or rigorous practice or both. You want to root for people based on their charisma? Go vote in an election.
On April 08 2014 11:26 playa wrote:The most watched thing ever was the 2008 Summer Olympics. When you think of the Olympics, do you not think of it as a world championship? No one f'ing cares whether the best swimmers are all American and only 5 end up making the American team to be there. People want to actually see their countrymen versus other countries.
You know who watched the Olympics? My mom. Would my mom have watched the Olympics if Canada/Russia weren't competing? Not a chance.
You know who didn't watch WCS? My mom. Would my mom have watched WCS if there were more players from Canada/Russia? Not a chance.
Olympics and WCS have wildly different demographics and goals. You can't just take the PR strategy of one and apply it to the other and expect it to work. If GSL sucks for two seasons in a row, less people will subscribe to the next one. If Olympics hockey sucks for two seasons in a row, you think hockey fans aren't going to tune in to the third one? Lol. The modern Olympics has over a hundred years of rep, and is a multibillion dollar industry. You think SC2 can market itself the same way? I laugh at the notion.
If one country is the best, bar none... Hey, guess what... you don't even need a world championship... The KR regional finals would already show you who the best player is.
As it stands, we don't need your kind of world championship. The reason the KR regional finals aren't enough is there aren't enough events for all the high quality Korean players to get the publicity they deserve. They keep knocking each other out off-camera. By spreading them out over three regions, we get the best of both worlds: we give them the exposure they deserve, and IF a foreigner happens to get good enough to challenge them, there is an obvious way to do so -- the WCS system is perfectly competent for letting foreigners get as far as their skill will allow.
Your beef is that there are very few such foreigners. Sucks, but there you go. It's not Blizzard's, or WCS's, job to change that. That's up to local sponsors and local tournaments.
People are supposed to be thrilled to tune in to watch a lot of ex bw pros continue their advantage into SC 2, where they barely speak any English, and they can't relate to them in any way? Have fun with that premise. Truth of the matter is, this game is horrible to watch in comparison to BW. Good graphics or not, this game is nothing in comparison. The only mu that could be considered better is P vs P, yet everyone hates that mu in SC 2. People don't normally watch SC 2 in awe like they do BW pros, due to the lower mechanical ability needed. If there were ever a time to not ignore what the majority of people prefer to watch, it would be now...
What we're doing is basically celebrating the fact that there are more Koreans able to practice 14 hours a day than non Koreans, while the viewers are telling you they don't f'ing care and they would prefer to see people from their country have the same opportunities.
See, this is what makes Vindicare dismiss you. You start quasi-promisingly by implying that because SC2 is such a poor game, the only way it can sustain itself is by appealing to base nationalistic pride... but then you throw that out the window to suggest that people who practice more shouldn't win more.
Yes. The WCS is there to celebrate people who are better at this game. Whether that's through raw talent or rigorous practice or both. You want to root for people based on their charisma? Go vote in an election.
I understand where you're coming from but we already have GSL, IEM's, MLG's, dreamhacks and homestory cups to watch Koreans go at it. Why is it wrong to hope for an event where you get to see some other guys up there for a change? People say nobody wants to watch "shitty foreigners" but part of the reason why there are fewer and fewer foreigners getting up to the top is because there is such a little foundation for anyone to climb up anymore.
On April 08 2014 10:57 Vindicare605 wrote: And nothing Playa said made any sense.
Best retort of all time? Since you're such a sensible guy, what should Blizzard do? Keep it exactly the same, since things are prospering so much? Enlighten me.
This is your argument in a nutshell.
1. Blizzard created this situation. 2. This situation is bad. 3. Blizzard is responsible for fixing this situation.
1. is wrong because, as most people learn in high school, correlation does not mean causation. Your statement of "coincidence?! I think not!!!" is worthless. There are plenty of other factors that have a hand in SC2's decline in popularity, and you do nothing to prove that the one you list is more significant than the rest.
2. is wrong for very obvious reasons. Not everyone shares your opinion.
3. no they aren't. They have no obligation to anyone to do anything. But as long as they're running a world championship series, I do expect them to feel obligated to make it a world championship series. That means anyone who doesn't deserve to be there should be cut long, long before. If that means 100% Koreans, so be it.
The most watched thing ever was the 2008 Summer Olympics. When you think of the Olympics, do you not think of it as a world championship? No one f'ing cares whether the best swimmers are all American and only 5 end up making the American team to be there. People want to actually see their countrymen versus other countries.
If one country is the best, bar none... Hey, guess what... you don't even need a world championship... The KR regional finals would already show you who the best player is.
People are supposed to be thrilled to tune in to watch a lot of ex bw pros continue their advantage into SC 2, where they barely speak any English, and they can't relate to them in any way? Have fun with that premise. Truth of the matter is, this game is horrible to watch in comparison to BW. Good graphics or not, this game is nothing in comparison. The only mu that could be considered better is P vs P, yet everyone hates that mu in SC 2. People don't normally watch SC 2 in awe like they do BW pros, due to the lower mechanical ability needed. If there were ever a time to not ignore what the majority of people prefer to watch, it would be now...
What we're doing is basically celebrating the fact that there are more Koreans able to practice 14 hours a day than non Koreans, while the viewers are telling you they don't f'ing care and they would prefer to see people from their country have the same opportunities.
Holy crap this argument is all over the place. The Olympics argument is nonsensical in itself, but I'm just LoLing when you go off on a BW vs SC2 tangent with faceless koreans. Please don't use "people" in your argument as if you're speaking for everyone because I for one love rooting for Polt. He speaks good English, he never played BW professionally (WC semi-pro), does crazy shit in-game that no one else does with regularity, and has gone out of his way to embrace the U. S. I'm sure Taeja, Hero, Bomber, etc. fans can provide arguments on their own, but the nuances of their stances (like mine) will probably be lost to you.
On April 08 2014 11:26 playa wrote:The most watched thing ever was the 2008 Summer Olympics. When you think of the Olympics, do you not think of it as a world championship? No one f'ing cares whether the best swimmers are all American and only 5 end up making the American team to be there. People want to actually see their countrymen versus other countries.
You know who watched the Olympics? My mom. Would my mom have watched the Olympics if Canada/Russia weren't competing? Not a chance.
You know who didn't watch WCS? My mom. Would my mom have watched WCS if there were more players from Canada/Russia? Not a chance.
Olympics and WCS have wildly different demographics and goals. You can't just take the PR strategy of one and apply it to the other and expect it to work. If GSL sucks for two seasons in a row, less people will subscribe to the next one. If Olympics hockey sucks for two seasons in a row, you think hockey fans aren't going to tune in to the third one? Lol. The modern Olympics has over a hundred years of rep, and is a multibillion dollar industry. You think SC2 can market itself the same way? I laugh at the notion.
If one country is the best, bar none... Hey, guess what... you don't even need a world championship... The KR regional finals would already show you who the best player is.
As it stands, we don't need your kind of world championship. The reason the KR regional finals aren't enough is there aren't enough events for all the high quality Korean players to get the publicity they deserve. They keep knocking each other out off-camera. By spreading them out over three regions, we get the best of both worlds: we give them the exposure they deserve, and IF a foreigner happens to get good enough to challenge them, there is an obvious way to do so -- the WCS system is perfectly competent for letting foreigners get as far as their skill will allow.
Your beef is that there are very few such foreigners. Sucks, but there you go. It's not Blizzard's, or WCS's, job to change that. That's up to local sponsors and local tournaments.
People are supposed to be thrilled to tune in to watch a lot of ex bw pros continue their advantage into SC 2, where they barely speak any English, and they can't relate to them in any way? Have fun with that premise. Truth of the matter is, this game is horrible to watch in comparison to BW. Good graphics or not, this game is nothing in comparison. The only mu that could be considered better is P vs P, yet everyone hates that mu in SC 2. People don't normally watch SC 2 in awe like they do BW pros, due to the lower mechanical ability needed. If there were ever a time to not ignore what the majority of people prefer to watch, it would be now...
What we're doing is basically celebrating the fact that there are more Koreans able to practice 14 hours a day than non Koreans, while the viewers are telling you they don't f'ing care and they would prefer to see people from their country have the same opportunities.
See, this is what makes Vindicare dismiss you. You start quasi-promisingly by implying that because SC2 is such a poor game, the only way it can sustain itself is by appealing to base nationalistic pride... but then you throw that out the window to suggest that people who practice more shouldn't win more.
Yes. The WCS is there to celebrate people who are better at this game. Whether that's through raw talent or rigorous practice or both. You want to root for people based on their charisma? Go vote in an election.
I understand where you're coming from but we already have GSL, IEM's, MLG's, dreamhacks and homestory cups to watch Koreans go at it. Why is it wrong to hope for an event where you get to see some other guys up there for a change? People say nobody wants to watch "shitty foreigners" but part of the reason why there are fewer and fewer foreigners getting up to the top is because there is such a little foundation for anyone to climb up anymore.
Most of these non WCS tournaments did / still do Invite only spots for popular foreigners. Why do people constantly say there is little foundation, when there is so much more capital / equipment readily available to foreigners than say the average Korean aspiring to become a progamer. To aspire to be a progamer in Korea is basically equivalent to throwing your life away if you don't succeed at it or don't find a team and get a license, because the competition in academia is so fierce and people have such conservative views for employment outside the entertainment industry.
There have been far more good Koreans that have fallen off the radar than there have been good foreigners who have fallen off the radar, the competition in Korea for a personal or team sponsorship is alot more fierce than it is in NA, what's the problem exactly?
On April 08 2014 11:26 playa wrote:The most watched thing ever was the 2008 Summer Olympics. When you think of the Olympics, do you not think of it as a world championship? No one f'ing cares whether the best swimmers are all American and only 5 end up making the American team to be there. People want to actually see their countrymen versus other countries.
You know who watched the Olympics? My mom. Would my mom have watched the Olympics if Canada/Russia weren't competing? Not a chance.
You know who didn't watch WCS? My mom. Would my mom have watched WCS if there were more players from Canada/Russia? Not a chance.
Olympics and WCS have wildly different demographics and goals. You can't just take the PR strategy of one and apply it to the other and expect it to work. If GSL sucks for two seasons in a row, less people will subscribe to the next one. If Olympics hockey sucks for two seasons in a row, you think hockey fans aren't going to tune in to the third one? Lol. The modern Olympics has over a hundred years of rep, and is a multibillion dollar industry. You think SC2 can market itself the same way? I laugh at the notion.
If one country is the best, bar none... Hey, guess what... you don't even need a world championship... The KR regional finals would already show you who the best player is.
As it stands, we don't need your kind of world championship. The reason the KR regional finals aren't enough is there aren't enough events for all the high quality Korean players to get the publicity they deserve. They keep knocking each other out off-camera. By spreading them out over three regions, we get the best of both worlds: we give them the exposure they deserve, and IF a foreigner happens to get good enough to challenge them, there is an obvious way to do so -- the WCS system is perfectly competent for letting foreigners get as far as their skill will allow.
Your beef is that there are very few such foreigners. Sucks, but there you go. It's not Blizzard's, or WCS's, job to change that. That's up to local sponsors and local tournaments.
People are supposed to be thrilled to tune in to watch a lot of ex bw pros continue their advantage into SC 2, where they barely speak any English, and they can't relate to them in any way? Have fun with that premise. Truth of the matter is, this game is horrible to watch in comparison to BW. Good graphics or not, this game is nothing in comparison. The only mu that could be considered better is P vs P, yet everyone hates that mu in SC 2. People don't normally watch SC 2 in awe like they do BW pros, due to the lower mechanical ability needed. If there were ever a time to not ignore what the majority of people prefer to watch, it would be now...
What we're doing is basically celebrating the fact that there are more Koreans able to practice 14 hours a day than non Koreans, while the viewers are telling you they don't f'ing care and they would prefer to see people from their country have the same opportunities.
See, this is what makes Vindicare dismiss you. You start quasi-promisingly by implying that because SC2 is such a poor game, the only way it can sustain itself is by appealing to base nationalistic pride... but then you throw that out the window to suggest that people who practice more shouldn't win more.
Yes. The WCS is there to celebrate people who are better at this game. Whether that's through raw talent or rigorous practice or both. You want to root for people based on their charisma? Go vote in an election.
I understand where you're coming from but we already have GSL, IEM's, MLG's, dreamhacks and homestory cups to watch Koreans go at it. Why is it wrong to hope for an event where you get to see some other guys up there for a change? People say nobody wants to watch "shitty foreigners" but part of the reason why there are fewer and fewer foreigners getting up to the top is because there is such a little foundation for anyone to climb up anymore.
First of all, half of the players at IEM Cologne weren't Korean.
Second, sustaining the NA/EU scenes isn't the job of the WCS system. Something else has to do that.
Third, as Vindicare and Waise keep bringing up, if everyone's so interested in the NA scene, why did no one watch Shoutcraft?
On April 08 2014 11:26 playa wrote:The most watched thing ever was the 2008 Summer Olympics. When you think of the Olympics, do you not think of it as a world championship? No one f'ing cares whether the best swimmers are all American and only 5 end up making the American team to be there. People want to actually see their countrymen versus other countries.
You know who watched the Olympics? My mom. Would my mom have watched the Olympics if Canada/Russia weren't competing? Not a chance.
You know who didn't watch WCS? My mom. Would my mom have watched WCS if there were more players from Canada/Russia? Not a chance.
Olympics and WCS have wildly different demographics and goals. You can't just take the PR strategy of one and apply it to the other and expect it to work. If GSL sucks for two seasons in a row, less people will subscribe to the next one. If Olympics hockey sucks for two seasons in a row, you think hockey fans aren't going to tune in to the third one? Lol. The modern Olympics has over a hundred years of rep, and is a multibillion dollar industry. You think SC2 can market itself the same way? I laugh at the notion.
If one country is the best, bar none... Hey, guess what... you don't even need a world championship... The KR regional finals would already show you who the best player is.
As it stands, we don't need your kind of world championship. The reason the KR regional finals aren't enough is there aren't enough events for all the high quality Korean players to get the publicity they deserve. They keep knocking each other out off-camera. By spreading them out over three regions, we get the best of both worlds: we give them the exposure they deserve, and IF a foreigner happens to get good enough to challenge them, there is an obvious way to do so -- the WCS system is perfectly competent for letting foreigners get as far as their skill will allow.
Your beef is that there are very few such foreigners. Sucks, but there you go. It's not Blizzard's, or WCS's, job to change that. That's up to local sponsors and local tournaments.
People are supposed to be thrilled to tune in to watch a lot of ex bw pros continue their advantage into SC 2, where they barely speak any English, and they can't relate to them in any way? Have fun with that premise. Truth of the matter is, this game is horrible to watch in comparison to BW. Good graphics or not, this game is nothing in comparison. The only mu that could be considered better is P vs P, yet everyone hates that mu in SC 2. People don't normally watch SC 2 in awe like they do BW pros, due to the lower mechanical ability needed. If there were ever a time to not ignore what the majority of people prefer to watch, it would be now...
What we're doing is basically celebrating the fact that there are more Koreans able to practice 14 hours a day than non Koreans, while the viewers are telling you they don't f'ing care and they would prefer to see people from their country have the same opportunities.
See, this is what makes Vindicare dismiss you. You start quasi-promisingly by implying that because SC2 is such a poor game, the only way it can sustain itself is by appealing to base nationalistic pride... but then you throw that out the window to suggest that people who practice more shouldn't win more.
Yes. The WCS is there to celebrate people who are better at this game. Whether that's through raw talent or rigorous practice or both. You want to root for people based on their charisma? Go vote in an election.
I understand where you're coming from but we already have GSL, IEM's, MLG's, dreamhacks and homestory cups to watch Koreans go at it. Why is it wrong to hope for an event where you get to see some other guys up there for a change? People say nobody wants to watch "shitty foreigners" but part of the reason why there are fewer and fewer foreigners getting up to the top is because there is such a little foundation for anyone to climb up anymore.
Most of these non WCS tournaments did / still do Invite only spots for popular foreigners. Why do people constantly say there is little foundation, when there is so much more capital / equipment readily available to foreigners than say the average Korean aspiring to become a progamer. To aspire to be a progamer in Korea is basically equivalent to throwing your life away if you don't succeed at it or don't find a team and get a license, because the competition in academia is so fierce and people have such conservative views for employment outside the entertainment industry.
There have been far more good Koreans that have fallen off the radar than there have been good foreigners who have fallen off the radar, the competition in Korea for a personal or team sponsorship is alot more fierce than it is in NA, what's the problem exactly?
Just to piggyback on your argument, I think people are also seriously overrating the SC2 infrastructure of Koreans. Kespa is withstanding of course, but none of the ESF teams are that well off.
As much as I do not want to wade into this, I can't resist pointing out the flaw in the "national pride" argument. People only want to watch out of nationalistic desire when the presence of another nationality poses an obstacle. Keeping Koreans out of leagues isn't going to increase viewer numbers. We're more interested in seeing Scarlett stomp Koreans than seeing Scarlett stomp local players.
I want to see the Korean dominance end as much as the next foreigner, but that requires skill and resources which the scene just doesn't have, and region locking to create this veneer of regional pride is not going to help the scene.
On April 08 2014 12:19 Sevre wrote: As much as I do not want to wade into this, I can't resist but point out the flaw in the "national pride" argument. People only want to watch out of nationalistic desire when the presence of another nationality poses an obstacle. Keeping Koreans out of leagues isn't going to increase viewer numbers. We're more interested in seeing Scarlett stomp Koreans than seeing Scarlett stomp local players.
I want to see the Korean dominance end as much as the next foreigner, but that requires skill and resources which the scene just doesn't have, and region locking to create this veneer of regional pride is not going to help the scene.
You're missing the point. To be the best at anything, you need to have talent + dedication + sufficient income. Until being one of the best players in a country means some financially, how can you grow your talent base? How can you keep your talent in the game? If it's a hobby to one person and a job to another, that gap in skill should never close. You have to increase the number of people that can pursue it as a job.
People who scoff at the NA scene need some perspective. Is there any profession in the NA where you could say you're in the top 32 of the NA, yet you still have to call it a hobby? It makes no sense for NA players to be in such of a predicament. That's a recipe for a dead game, when people have no incentive to be one of the best in the NA. We're not talking about a small scope, either. We're talking about being amongst the best, out of hundreds of thousands of people.
You can't compete with Koreans until you attract more talent and create more jobs for said players, enabling them to practice 8 hours instead of working another job on the side for 8 hours a day....
Idra has gone from one of the better players in the NA to being out of the scene. It's insane to lose such a fan draw + talented player due to only rewarding like the best 32 players in the whole world. He retired after he failed to qualify for WCS. You know, the tournament that has essentially become the only tournament...
No one has more money in the scene than Blizzard. It is their game. If Blizzard isn't going to take charge in growing scenes, then who is? This game needs to grow, because at it's current state, its not exactly encouraging anyone to do much of anything.
On April 08 2014 12:19 Sevre wrote: As much as I do not want to wade into this, I can't resist but point out the flaw in the "national pride" argument. People only want to watch out of nationalistic desire when the presence of another nationality poses an obstacle. Keeping Koreans out of leagues isn't going to increase viewer numbers. We're more interested in seeing Scarlett stomp Koreans than seeing Scarlett stomp local players.
I want to see the Korean dominance end as much as the next foreigner, but that requires skill and resources which the scene just doesn't have, and region locking to create this veneer of regional pride is not going to help the scene.
You're missing the point. To be the best at anything, you need to have talent + dedication + sufficient income. Until being one of the best players in a country means some financially, how can you grow your talent base? How can you keep your talent in the game? If it's a hobby to one person and a job to another, that gap in skill should never close. You have to increase the number of people that can pursue it as a job.
People who scoff at the NA scene need some perspective. Is there any profession in the NA where you could say you're in the top 32 of the NA, yet you still have to call it a hobby? It makes no sense for NA players to be in such of a predicament. That's a recipe for a dead game, when people have no incentive to be one of the best in the NA. We're not talking about a small scope, either. We're talking about being amongst the best, out of hundreds of thousands of people.
You can't compete with Koreans until you attract more talent and create more jobs for said players, enabling them to practice 8 hours instead of working another job on the side for 8 hours a day....
Idra has gone from one of the better players in the NA to being out of the scene. It's insane to lose such a fan draw + talented player due to only rewarding like the best 32 players in the whole world. He retired after he failed to qualify for WCS. You know, the tournament that has essentially become the only tournament...
No one has more money in the scene than Blizzard. It is their game. If Blizzard isn't going to take charge in growing scenes, then who is? This game needs to grow, because at it's current state, its not exactly encouraging anyone to do much of anything.
There are probably hobbies/professions like that, you've just never heard of them for that very reason.
People talk about the NA region like they need help, but honestly - it's up to the players to actually practice and compete. Stop depending on Blizzard to do something, if they wanted to create a viable NA scene, they would've done it by now.
On April 08 2014 12:19 Sevre wrote: As much as I do not want to wade into this, I can't resist but point out the flaw in the "national pride" argument. People only want to watch out of nationalistic desire when the presence of another nationality poses an obstacle. Keeping Koreans out of leagues isn't going to increase viewer numbers. We're more interested in seeing Scarlett stomp Koreans than seeing Scarlett stomp local players.
I want to see the Korean dominance end as much as the next foreigner, but that requires skill and resources which the scene just doesn't have, and region locking to create this veneer of regional pride is not going to help the scene.
You're missing the point. To be the best at anything, you need to have talent + dedication + sufficient income. Until being one of the best players in a country means some financially, how can you grow your talent base? How can you keep your talent in the game? If it's a hobby to one person and a job to another, that gap in skill should never close. You have to increase the number of people that can pursue it as a job.
People who scoff at the NA scene need some perspective. Is there any profession in the NA where you could say you're in the top 32 of the NA, yet you still have to call it a hobby? It makes no sense for NA players to be in such of a predicament. That's a recipe for a dead game, when people have no incentive to be one of the best in the NA. We're not talking about a small scope, either. We're talking about being amongst the best, out of hundreds of thousands of people.
You can't compete with Koreans until you attract more talent and create more jobs for said players, enabling them to practice 8 hours instead of working another job on the side for 8 hours a day....
Idra has gone from one of the better players in the NA to being out of the scene. It's insane to lose such a fan draw + talented player due to only rewarding like the best 32 players in the whole world. He retired after he failed to qualify for WCS. You know, the tournament that has essentially become the only tournament...
No one has more money in the scene than Blizzard. It is their game. If Blizzard isn't going to take charge in growing scenes, then who is? This game needs to grow, because at it's current state, it's not exactly encouraging anyone to do much of anything.
You do realize that hundreds if not thousands of Korean progamers never even get to play a professional game for months, years, or even their entire career right? There are so many Koreans who are just benched practice partners who are putting their future careers on the line practicing their ass off. In NA you have dozens of local tournaments ran by random sponsors and some times just the community because of how much disposable income people have. The fact that you can be a streaming personality in NA and get invited to tournaments or show matches with hundreds or thousands of dollars as a prize pool is not a luxury most Korean progamers have.
I'm going to come out and just say this: Korean progamers often put MORE on the line than NA players do, they organize their entire lives around it, when they are going to leave school, when they are going to do their mandatory army tour, when they are going to get back to get a degree, when they are going to get married, parents have to be consulted, etc. In NA you see players and streamers with casual attitudes, because they have so many other alternatives for revenue streams and opportunities. The idea that Koreans some how have it easier than NA players is a complete fallacy. A team in Korea just having a team house is a huge deal, when do you ever see Korean teams or players making videos boasting about their living conditions or equipment? The average NA / EU twitch streamer who gets popular has access to so much better equipment and living conditions than Korean B-teamers.
On April 08 2014 12:19 Sevre wrote: As much as I do not want to wade into this, I can't resist but point out the flaw in the "national pride" argument. People only want to watch out of nationalistic desire when the presence of another nationality poses an obstacle. Keeping Koreans out of leagues isn't going to increase viewer numbers. We're more interested in seeing Scarlett stomp Koreans than seeing Scarlett stomp local players.
I want to see the Korean dominance end as much as the next foreigner, but that requires skill and resources which the scene just doesn't have, and region locking to create this veneer of regional pride is not going to help the scene.
You're missing the point. To be the best at anything, you need to have talent + dedication + sufficient income. Until being one of the best players in a country means some financially, how can you grow your talent base? How can you keep your talent in the game? If it's a hobby to one person and a job to another, that gap in skill should never close. You have to increase the number of people that can pursue it as a job.
People who scoff at the NA scene need some perspective. Is there any profession in the NA where you could say you're in the top 32 of the NA, yet you still have to call it a hobby? It makes no sense for NA players to be in such of a predicament. That's a recipe for a dead game, when people have no incentive to be one of the best in the NA. We're not talking about a small scope, either. We're talking about being amongst the best, out of hundreds of thousands of people.
You can't compete with Koreans until you attract more talent and create more jobs for said players, enabling them to practice 8 hours instead of working another job on the side for 8 hours a day....
Idra has gone from one of the better players in the NA to being out of the scene. It's insane to lose such a fan draw + talented player due to only rewarding like the best 32 players in the whole world. He retired after he failed to qualify for WCS. You know, the tournament that has essentially become the only tournament...
No one has more money in the scene than Blizzard. It is their game. If Blizzard isn't going to take charge in growing scenes, then who is? This game needs to grow, because at it's current state, its not exactly encouraging anyone to do much of anything.
There are probably hobbies/professions like that, you've just never heard of them for that very reason.
People talk about the NA region like they need help, but honestly - it's up to the players to actually practice and compete. Stop depending on Blizzard to do something, if they wanted to create a viable NA scene, they would've done it by now.
That's the thing, though. They have acknowledged this and realized it was idiotic to keep it how it was, whether people understand this or not. The problem is now the pace that changes actually take effect. They try to be politically correct, though, and hope things will work themselves out. They don't want to get their hands dirty so to speak, but they fail to realize the absurdity of relying on kids like neeb, who are still in school, to knock out Korean pros who play 14 hours a day.
On April 08 2014 12:19 Sevre wrote: As much as I do not want to wade into this, I can't resist but point out the flaw in the "national pride" argument. People only want to watch out of nationalistic desire when the presence of another nationality poses an obstacle. Keeping Koreans out of leagues isn't going to increase viewer numbers. We're more interested in seeing Scarlett stomp Koreans than seeing Scarlett stomp local players.
I want to see the Korean dominance end as much as the next foreigner, but that requires skill and resources which the scene just doesn't have, and region locking to create this veneer of regional pride is not going to help the scene.
You're missing the point. To be the best at anything, you need to have talent + dedication + sufficient income. Until being one of the best players in a country means some financially, how can you grow your talent base? How can you keep your talent in the game? If it's a hobby to one person and a job to another, that gap in skill should never close. You have to increase the number of people that can pursue it as a job.
People who scoff at the NA scene need some perspective. Is there any profession in the NA where you could say you're in the top 32 of the NA, yet you still have to call it a hobby? It makes no sense for NA players to be in such of a predicament. That's a recipe for a dead game, when people have no incentive to be one of the best in the NA. We're not talking about a small scope, either. We're talking about being amongst the best, out of hundreds of thousands of people.
You can't compete with Koreans until you attract more talent and create more jobs for said players, enabling them to practice 8 hours instead of working another job on the side for 8 hours a day....
Idra has gone from one of the better players in the NA to being out of the scene. It's insane to lose such a fan draw + talented player due to only rewarding like the best 32 players in the whole world. He retired after he failed to qualify for WCS. You know, the tournament that has essentially become the only tournament...
No one has more money in the scene than Blizzard. It is their game. If Blizzard isn't going to take charge in growing scenes, then who is? This game needs to grow, because at it's current state, its not exactly encouraging anyone to do much of anything.
There are probably hobbies/professions like that, you've just never heard of them for that very reason.
People talk about the NA region like they need help, but honestly - it's up to the players to actually practice and compete. Stop depending on Blizzard to do something, if they wanted to create a viable NA scene, they would've done it by now.
That's the thing, though. They have acknowledged this and realized it was idiotic to keep it how it was, whether people understand this or not. The problem is now the pace that changes actually take effect. They try to be politically correct, though, and hope things will work themselves out. They don't want to get their hands dirty so to speak, but they fail to realize the absurdity of relying on kids like neeb, who are still in school, to knock out Korean pros who play 14 hours a day.
You have to be a little more proactive than that.
Why ignore the fact that there are lots of Koreans that are also in school, that are better than pretty much any American pro/streamer, and yet can't get past Code B/A or stay on a team? Or about the fact that Life, Maru are still in high school just like your neeb example. It's not like the world is different in Korea. The biggest advantage that Korea has is that it's smaller than America, and people can travel easily, but it doesn't change the fact that players, pro or semi-pro, don't play as well as any Korean that's putting any bit of time. They come on the forums and complain about it, and when the community (read: TotalBiscuit), gives them a tournament to actually compete in, players just randomly drop out and don't show up and it becomes a huge drama shitfest.
On April 08 2014 12:19 Sevre wrote: As much as I do not want to wade into this, I can't resist but point out the flaw in the "national pride" argument. People only want to watch out of nationalistic desire when the presence of another nationality poses an obstacle. Keeping Koreans out of leagues isn't going to increase viewer numbers. We're more interested in seeing Scarlett stomp Koreans than seeing Scarlett stomp local players.
I want to see the Korean dominance end as much as the next foreigner, but that requires skill and resources which the scene just doesn't have, and region locking to create this veneer of regional pride is not going to help the scene.
You're missing the point. To be the best at anything, you need to have talent + dedication + sufficient income. Until being one of the best players in a country means some financially, how can you grow your talent base? How can you keep your talent in the game? If it's a hobby to one person and a job to another, that gap in skill should never close. You have to increase the number of people that can pursue it as a job.
People who scoff at the NA scene need some perspective. Is there any profession in the NA where you could say you're in the top 32 of the NA, yet you still have to call it a hobby? It makes no sense for NA players to be in such of a predicament. That's a recipe for a dead game, when people have no incentive to be one of the best in the NA. We're not talking about a small scope, either. We're talking about being amongst the best, out of hundreds of thousands of people.
You can't compete with Koreans until you attract more talent and create more jobs for said players, enabling them to practice 8 hours instead of working another job on the side for 8 hours a day....
Idra has gone from one of the better players in the NA to being out of the scene. It's insane to lose such a fan draw + talented player due to only rewarding like the best 32 players in the whole world. He retired after he failed to qualify for WCS. You know, the tournament that has essentially become the only tournament...
No one has more money in the scene than Blizzard. It is their game. If Blizzard isn't going to take charge in growing scenes, then who is? This game needs to grow, because at it's current state, it's not exactly encouraging anyone to do much of anything.
You do realize that hundreds if not thousands of Korean progamers never even get to play a professional game for months, years, or even their entire career right? There are so many Koreans who are just benched practice partners who are putting their future careers on the line practicing their ass off. In NA you have dozens of local tournaments ran by random sponsors and some times just the community because of how much disposable income people have. The fact that you can be a streaming personality in NA and get invited to tournaments or show matches with hundreds or thousands of dollars as a prize pool is not a luxury most Korean progamers have.
I'm going to come out and just say this: Korean progamers often put MORE on the line than NA players do, they organize their entire lives around it, when they are going to leave school, when they are going to do their mandatory army tour, when they are going to get back to get a degree, when they are going to get married, parents have to be consulted, etc. In NA you see players and streamers with casual attitudes, because they have so many other alternatives for revenue streams and opportunities. The idea that Koreans some how have it easier than NA players is a complete fallacy. A team in Korea just having a team house is a huge deal, when do you ever see Korean teams or players making videos boasting about their living conditions or equipment? The average NA / EU twitch streamer who gets popular has access to so much better equipment and living conditions than Korean B-teamers.
^ read this too.
Keep in mind, there's not as many small tournaments in Korea. People talk about being a pro-gamer like it's a viable career, but if you mention that you're a pro-gamer in Korea, most people think it's at best a hobby. And even worse if you're a Starcraft pro-gamer, I've talked about Starcraft to a ton of people, and the vast majority of the responses have been, "wait why aren't you playing/watching LoL?", the other responses have been "what an old game". And yet there are still people that play tons of hours in hopes of making it onto a team, in hopes of playing in Code A/S and winning a tournament in a smaller player pool than NA. Nobody on NA should whine about a lack of opportunity.
As someone that watched nearly every pro BW event, I'm going to go with it's a lot more accepted in Korea than it is here. If you're a NA player, are you going to point to SC 2 being on TV? You going to point out that there is 1 team house? You going to point out popularity is more important than skill? I've never seen a NA citizen go to Korea and talk about how much worse it is there. Ask people here how they feel about SC 2 and they will probably say wtf are you talking about. What is that?
I'm just saying this scene is so unhealthy. You can't have all of the money going to Korea and expect this esport to be some kinda global thing. In soccer, if Brazilians were the best and then it was everyone else, you'd have all of the money going to Brazilians? People need to understand the concept of needing other scenes to be strong to help you prosper, too. More fans/viewers = more sponsors = more money = Brazilians still being able to prosper by letting some inferior humans have some cake..
Naniwa is a lot more important to SC 2 than Alicia is, whether Alicia is better or not. If being good/better were the be all/end all, 99% of NA tournaments wouldn't be invite only. It's about balance, not just having a lot of 1 thing.
On another note, since some have brought up shoutcraft; shoutcraft was a great thing. That's more of what NA needs. The "problem" there was the lack of spots available. In other words, the few players who were able to qualify were basically the only players who didn't actually need it. It only benefited a few players who "needed" it, like hitman.
If there were more spots available, more people who were "hungry" would have shown that, instead of what happened.
On April 07 2014 19:14 Vidar wrote: Defeats the purpose of region representation and a global finals. Global finals is just a one-day Code S in this system. At least sending "weak" American players to a global finals would be exciting, even if we just watched them get crushed. Our homegrown American/Canadian players have insufficient tournament support or foundation for their careers and personal improvement. Imagine a global finals with 1/3 actual American region, 1/3 actual Europeans, and 1/3 Koreans... that would be awesome! First find our best in each homegrown region, then pit the best of each region against the best of the other regions, kind of like they do in other sports! That's what it's really supposed to be, right? They screwed up last year, and crossed their fingers in the hopes that a few rule tweaks and some in-game upsets would fix the ratio of Korean-to-foreigner for this year. They crossed their fingers and now all they have is egg on their faces. This notion of region pride is a complete joke. Top 8 NA are Koreans. Get your American flags ready for waving, ladies and gents! Our Americans are going to need our support at the end of the year when they must battle players from all different parts of the globe! If our Americans are anything to go by, I'm quite certain we'll be seeing only Americans at the global finals. Go America!
On the contrary, I don't think watching Neeb and desRow get crushed by any combination of players would be exciting in the slightest. There is only one way match-ups like Neeb vs Zest or Masa vs soO could end, and if we both know both how it'll end and that the games won't be very exciting beforehand, what's the point in watching? You may feel that watching "home-grown" American players get stomped through the ground is exciting and if that's the case then that's fine, but I don't think many people share that opinion.
! First find our best in each homegrown region, then pit the best of each region against the best of the other regions, kind of like they do in other sports! That's what it's really supposed to be, right
No it's not. That's what some people want WCS to be, but Blizzard has never at any point specifically said that they want two thirds of the Global Finals to be made up of non-Korean players. People blame Blizzard for failing with WCS, but Blizzard's goals for the tournament series seems fairly in line with how it's ended up.
If neeb and masa earned a spot as the best players in the NA region, then yes, I wouldn't mind watching them get crushed vs koreans in a global final. I want to find out who the best in the region actually are. The fact that so many chime in with responses similar to mine doesn't mean that we are all anti-korean nationalistic haters, it simply means that we perceive the current WCS as being a silly joke that pretends to give representation to a variety of regions while only actually representing one. You can say that's not the point of WCS, and blizz never said it, etc. ad nauseum, but that's really just pulling the "they TECHNICALLY never specified that this is what it was supposed to be" card.
I wish I'd known about Shoutcraft. I'd heard the word a few times, and I do keep relatively active on the forums, but I never really knew what it was until reading through this thread today. I absolutely would have supported it. The koreans are great, and their skills are acknowledged and recognized, but how can you not sense the problem of having the top 8 NA players being Koreans? I and others would feel the same way if they were all Europeans, it's simply exposing the joke of this region-based system. The joke, of course, is that it has nothing to do with region. The idea of a "global finals" is really just a "final korean tournament" masquerading as a bridge between continents.
It all comes down to this: the Korean players to can work more for less, and produces better results because : - Living expense is lower in Korea (? not sure about this.) - Americans are spoilt. - Korean work ethic. - Koreans can learn from their peers, which are the best in the world.
I don't see how spending $500K each year for an NA locked tournament is gonna solve any of this issue?
NA players serious about playing full-time should just move to Korea, like State did.
I find it a little sad, that if a Korean plays in AM, they're often considered has-beens, Alicia/Revival are all playing really well right now. Looking at the global finals last year; AM folks werent destroyed at all; rather, they made the finals. And considering Bomber is now AM, shows the strength of WCS AM;
I think considering the level of play in AM, it's unfair to call some of the older players now in AM as 'has-beens'.
Bomber ftw is my prediction. That guy always seems to come out of nowhere. He just knows how to play a series really well, always brings a well rounded variety of solid builds.
On April 07 2014 19:14 Vidar wrote: Defeats the purpose of region representation and a global finals. Global finals is just a one-day Code S in this system. At least sending "weak" American players to a global finals would be exciting, even if we just watched them get crushed. Our homegrown American/Canadian players have insufficient tournament support or foundation for their careers and personal improvement. Imagine a global finals with 1/3 actual American region, 1/3 actual Europeans, and 1/3 Koreans... that would be awesome! First find our best in each homegrown region, then pit the best of each region against the best of the other regions, kind of like they do in other sports! That's what it's really supposed to be, right? They screwed up last year, and crossed their fingers in the hopes that a few rule tweaks and some in-game upsets would fix the ratio of Korean-to-foreigner for this year. They crossed their fingers and now all they have is egg on their faces. This notion of region pride is a complete joke. Top 8 NA are Koreans. Get your American flags ready for waving, ladies and gents! Our Americans are going to need our support at the end of the year when they must battle players from all different parts of the globe! If our Americans are anything to go by, I'm quite certain we'll be seeing only Americans at the global finals. Go America!
On the contrary, I don't think watching Neeb and desRow get crushed by any combination of players would be exciting in the slightest. There is only one way match-ups like Neeb vs Zest or Masa vs soO could end, and if we both know both how it'll end and that the games won't be very exciting beforehand, what's the point in watching? You may feel that watching "home-grown" American players get stomped through the ground is exciting and if that's the case then that's fine, but I don't think many people share that opinion.
Further,
! First find our best in each homegrown region, then pit the best of each region against the best of the other regions, kind of like they do in other sports! That's what it's really supposed to be, right
No it's not. That's what some people want WCS to be, but Blizzard has never at any point specifically said that they want two thirds of the Global Finals to be made up of non-Korean players. People blame Blizzard for failing with WCS, but Blizzard's goals for the tournament series seems fairly in line with how it's ended up.
If neeb and masa earned a spot as the best players in the NA region, then yes, I wouldn't mind watching them get crushed vs koreans in a global final. I want to find out who the best in the region actually are. The fact that so many chime in with responses similar to mine doesn't mean that we are all anti-korean nationalistic haters, it simply means that we perceive the current WCS as being a silly joke that pretends to give representation to a variety of regions while only actually representing one. You can say that's not the point of WCS, and blizz never said it, etc. ad nauseum, but that's really just pulling the "they TECHNICALLY never specified that this is what it was supposed to be" card.
I wish I'd known about Shoutcraft. I'd heard the word a few times, and I do keep relatively active on the forums, but I never really knew what it was until reading through this thread today. I absolutely would have supported it. The koreans are great, and their skills are acknowledged and recognized, but how can you not sense the problem of having the top 8 NA players being Koreans? I and others would feel the same way if they were all Europeans, it's simply exposing the joke of this region-based system. The joke, of course, is that it has nothing to do with region. The idea of a "global finals" is really just a "final korean tournament" masquerading as a bridge between continents.
Again if there was an audience then these regional tournaments wouldn't be dead either. You guys are very vocal in your hate of Koreans in other regions of WCS, but often times it's just posting for the sake of something to complain about. If the "develop" NA crowd were serious then feardragon's show wouldn't have <50 viewers. NA only tournaments wouldn't have such abysmal ratings. People bring up Shoutcraft a lot as the best example, but what about even more recent ones like the Ender's Tournament? What about the Lake Charles Scion Thanksgiving Open which, unless my memory fails me, struggled to even break 1000 viewers? Why should Blizzard be a scapegoat when the exclusion model has shown time and time again that it's not viable.
On April 07 2014 19:14 Vidar wrote: Defeats the purpose of region representation and a global finals. Global finals is just a one-day Code S in this system. At least sending "weak" American players to a global finals would be exciting, even if we just watched them get crushed. Our homegrown American/Canadian players have insufficient tournament support or foundation for their careers and personal improvement. Imagine a global finals with 1/3 actual American region, 1/3 actual Europeans, and 1/3 Koreans... that would be awesome! First find our best in each homegrown region, then pit the best of each region against the best of the other regions, kind of like they do in other sports! That's what it's really supposed to be, right? They screwed up last year, and crossed their fingers in the hopes that a few rule tweaks and some in-game upsets would fix the ratio of Korean-to-foreigner for this year. They crossed their fingers and now all they have is egg on their faces. This notion of region pride is a complete joke. Top 8 NA are Koreans. Get your American flags ready for waving, ladies and gents! Our Americans are going to need our support at the end of the year when they must battle players from all different parts of the globe! If our Americans are anything to go by, I'm quite certain we'll be seeing only Americans at the global finals. Go America!
On the contrary, I don't think watching Neeb and desRow get crushed by any combination of players would be exciting in the slightest. There is only one way match-ups like Neeb vs Zest or Masa vs soO could end, and if we both know both how it'll end and that the games won't be very exciting beforehand, what's the point in watching? You may feel that watching "home-grown" American players get stomped through the ground is exciting and if that's the case then that's fine, but I don't think many people share that opinion.
Further,
! First find our best in each homegrown region, then pit the best of each region against the best of the other regions, kind of like they do in other sports! That's what it's really supposed to be, right
No it's not. That's what some people want WCS to be, but Blizzard has never at any point specifically said that they want two thirds of the Global Finals to be made up of non-Korean players. People blame Blizzard for failing with WCS, but Blizzard's goals for the tournament series seems fairly in line with how it's ended up.
If neeb and masa earned a spot as the best players in the NA region, then yes, I wouldn't mind watching them get crushed vs koreans in a global final. I want to find out who the best in the region actually are. The fact that so many chime in with responses similar to mine doesn't mean that we are all anti-korean nationalistic haters, it simply means that we perceive the current WCS as being a silly joke that pretends to give representation to a variety of regions while only actually representing one. You can say that's not the point of WCS, and blizz never said it, etc. ad nauseum, but that's really just pulling the "they TECHNICALLY never specified that this is what it was supposed to be" card.
I wish I'd known about Shoutcraft. I'd heard the word a few times, and I do keep relatively active on the forums, but I never really knew what it was until reading through this thread today. I absolutely would have supported it. The koreans are great, and their skills are acknowledged and recognized, but how can you not sense the problem of having the top 8 NA players being Koreans? I and others would feel the same way if they were all Europeans, it's simply exposing the joke of this region-based system. The joke, of course, is that it has nothing to do with region. The idea of a "global finals" is really just a "final korean tournament" masquerading as a bridge between continents.
Again if there was an audience then these regional tournaments wouldn't be dead either. You guys are very vocal in your hate of Koreans in other regions of WCS, but often times it's just posting for the sake of something to complain about. If the "develop" NA crowd were serious then feardragon's show wouldn't have <50 viewers. NA only tournaments wouldn't have such abysmal ratings. People bring up Shoutcraft a lot as the best example, but what about even more recent ones like the Ender's Tournament? What about the Lake Charles Scion Thanksgiving Open which, unless my memory fails me, struggled to even break 1000 viewers? Why should Blizzard be a scapegoat when the exclusion model has shown time and time again that it's not viable.
Shoutcraft got pretty good viewers. Nothing worse than WCS AM with mostly Koreans gets now. Enders tournament, I wouldn't know, as who is eager to support 95% invite based tournaments? As for feardragon, people obviously want to see NA in a better state, but they also want to watch some fan favorites/people they already know of.
If you were to run a tournament for the best 32 in NA, I think that would be far more interesting. I see Koreans in every tournament. Scarlett, State, Huk, Suppy, Kane, Minigun, QXC, Masa, Koma, Neeb, Xeno, Intense, Desrow, Idra, Nony, etc.
I hate watching this game, yet I would watch that. Unless one of the prodigy Korean Terrans are playing, if I'm not going to be wowed, at least give me a story. Ever since Blizzard started using their favorite word/phrase "storyline," the only storyline has been who is going to quit/retire next. Period.
I want to know who is the best in NA. I don't care if Arthur would be able to beat these guys with all-ins if he was thrown into the mix. Save that for a show match or something. Players like minigun, despite being one of the best in NA, with massive potential, still go to school. If players like that were to start winning WCS tournaments, maybe they would put school on hold and would be able to get the extra practice to compete with any Koreans.
There was a post on reddit about Blizzard not even promoting WCS AM the other day. They're probably embarrassed by this tournament and where it's taking place. Who is thrilled at the moment? Every day, there's fewer foreigners left to cheer for and you see less and less of them. If I'm going to just watch Koreans winning, bring back BW so I can at least be impressed.
On April 08 2014 16:11 playa wrote:There was a post on reddit about Blizzard not even promoting WCS AM the other day. They're probably embarrassed by this tournament and where it's taking place. Who is thrilled at the moment?
Are you for real? Do you actually exist as a human being who thinks these things? Because if you've been paying ANY attention to this thread whatsoever, plenty of people are thrilled.
In fact, if WCS AM becomes 100% Korean, I'll be even more thrilled than I am now. I won't lie, a very tiny bit of that will be out of spite.
On April 08 2014 16:11 playa wrote:There was a post on reddit about Blizzard not even promoting WCS AM the other day. They're probably embarrassed by this tournament and where it's taking place. Who is thrilled at the moment?
Are you for real? Do you actually exist as a human being who thinks these things? Because if you've been paying ANY attention to this thread whatsoever, plenty of people are thrilled.
In fact, if WCS AM becomes 100% Korean, I'll be even more thrilled than I am now. I won't lie, a very tiny bit of that will be out of spite.
Plenty of people? This is getting no more viewers than shoutcraft got. When Blizzard doesn't bother to promote it, that's kinda telling. When the business that is running WCS stops running it, mid-season, you know things aren't so hot.
This would be like the equivalent of instead of running the TSL in BW, they decided to run a star league for the Korean B teams. No one f'ing cares, if the alternative is getting to watch the best foreigners/fan favorites. Thestc is probably better than most NA players, if not all, yet no one cares. That's life. SC 2 isn't doing so hot right now, because no one cares.
On April 08 2014 12:19 Sevre wrote: As much as I do not want to wade into this, I can't resist but point out the flaw in the "national pride" argument. People only want to watch out of nationalistic desire when the presence of another nationality poses an obstacle. Keeping Koreans out of leagues isn't going to increase viewer numbers. We're more interested in seeing Scarlett stomp Koreans than seeing Scarlett stomp local players.
I want to see the Korean dominance end as much as the next foreigner, but that requires skill and resources which the scene just doesn't have, and region locking to create this veneer of regional pride is not going to help the scene.
You're missing the point. To be the best at anything, you need to have talent + dedication + sufficient income. Until being one of the best players in a country means some financially, how can you grow your talent base? How can you keep your talent in the game? If it's a hobby to one person and a job to another, that gap in skill should never close. You have to increase the number of people that can pursue it as a job.
People who scoff at the NA scene need some perspective. Is there any profession in the NA where you could say you're in the top 32 of the NA, yet you still have to call it a hobby? It makes no sense for NA players to be in such of a predicament. That's a recipe for a dead game, when people have no incentive to be one of the best in the NA. We're not talking about a small scope, either. We're talking about being amongst the best, out of hundreds of thousands of people.
You can't compete with Koreans until you attract more talent and create more jobs for said players, enabling them to practice 8 hours instead of working another job on the side for 8 hours a day....
Idra has gone from one of the better players in the NA to being out of the scene. It's insane to lose such a fan draw + talented player due to only rewarding like the best 32 players in the whole world. He retired after he failed to qualify for WCS. You know, the tournament that has essentially become the only tournament...
No one has more money in the scene than Blizzard. It is their game. If Blizzard isn't going to take charge in growing scenes, then who is? This game needs to grow, because at it's current state, its not exactly encouraging anyone to do much of anything.
There are probably hobbies/professions like that, you've just never heard of them for that very reason.
People talk about the NA region like they need help, but honestly - it's up to the players to actually practice and compete. Stop depending on Blizzard to do something, if they wanted to create a viable NA scene, they would've done it by now.
That's the thing, though. They have acknowledged this and realized it was idiotic to keep it how it was, whether people understand this or not. The problem is now the pace that changes actually take effect. They try to be politically correct, though, and hope things will work themselves out. They don't want to get their hands dirty so to speak, but they fail to realize the absurdity of relying on kids like neeb, who are still in school, to knock out Korean pros who play 14 hours a day.
You have to be a little more proactive than that.
Why ignore the fact that there are lots of Koreans that are also in school, that are better than pretty much any American pro/streamer, and yet can't get past Code B/A or stay on a team? Or about the fact that Life, Maru are still in high school just like your neeb example. It's not like the world is different in Korea. The biggest advantage that Korea has is that it's smaller than America, and people can travel easily, but it doesn't change the fact that players, pro or semi-pro, don't play as well as any Korean that's putting any bit of time. They come on the forums and complain about it, and when the community (read: TotalBiscuit), gives them a tournament to actually compete in, players just randomly drop out and don't show up and it becomes a huge drama shitfest.
It's easy Chaggi, he ignores that part because it makes his argument look silly and stupid (which it is) even though it's true. To add to this, Korean players get much fewer opportunities to prove themselves or earn any money simply because there are so very few tournaments there. Stuff like the ESV Weeklies, the EWM, the KSL, FXO invitationals and KotH events and various other online tournaments helped a bit, but those are long gone. And yet you don't see them beg for charity and whine on forums about it...
You have a cutthroat environment that breeds strong players as a result of how fierce the competition is and how scarce the opportunities are. Why should they be less deserving of success than the people who don't even bother to do well in the tournaments that are at their doorstep or in which they're seeded/invited? Why should they be less deserving of opportunities than the people who repeatedly have shown that they don't give enough of a shit about the tons of opportunities they're already given to begin with?
If anyone thinks "charity" events for a certain region are needed, I don't fundamentally disagree with that idea. But that certain region would have to be Korea.
On April 08 2014 12:19 Sevre wrote: As much as I do not want to wade into this, I can't resist but point out the flaw in the "national pride" argument. People only want to watch out of nationalistic desire when the presence of another nationality poses an obstacle. Keeping Koreans out of leagues isn't going to increase viewer numbers. We're more interested in seeing Scarlett stomp Koreans than seeing Scarlett stomp local players.
I want to see the Korean dominance end as much as the next foreigner, but that requires skill and resources which the scene just doesn't have, and region locking to create this veneer of regional pride is not going to help the scene.
You're missing the point. To be the best at anything, you need to have talent + dedication + sufficient income. Until being one of the best players in a country means some financially, how can you grow your talent base? How can you keep your talent in the game? If it's a hobby to one person and a job to another, that gap in skill should never close. You have to increase the number of people that can pursue it as a job.
People who scoff at the NA scene need some perspective. Is there any profession in the NA where you could say you're in the top 32 of the NA, yet you still have to call it a hobby? It makes no sense for NA players to be in such of a predicament. That's a recipe for a dead game, when people have no incentive to be one of the best in the NA. We're not talking about a small scope, either. We're talking about being amongst the best, out of hundreds of thousands of people.
You can't compete with Koreans until you attract more talent and create more jobs for said players, enabling them to practice 8 hours instead of working another job on the side for 8 hours a day....
Idra has gone from one of the better players in the NA to being out of the scene. It's insane to lose such a fan draw + talented player due to only rewarding like the best 32 players in the whole world. He retired after he failed to qualify for WCS. You know, the tournament that has essentially become the only tournament...
No one has more money in the scene than Blizzard. It is their game. If Blizzard isn't going to take charge in growing scenes, then who is? This game needs to grow, because at it's current state, its not exactly encouraging anyone to do much of anything.
There are probably hobbies/professions like that, you've just never heard of them for that very reason.
People talk about the NA region like they need help, but honestly - it's up to the players to actually practice and compete. Stop depending on Blizzard to do something, if they wanted to create a viable NA scene, they would've done it by now.
That's the thing, though. They have acknowledged this and realized it was idiotic to keep it how it was, whether people understand this or not. The problem is now the pace that changes actually take effect. They try to be politically correct, though, and hope things will work themselves out. They don't want to get their hands dirty so to speak, but they fail to realize the absurdity of relying on kids like neeb, who are still in school, to knock out Korean pros who play 14 hours a day.
You have to be a little more proactive than that.
Why ignore the fact that there are lots of Koreans that are also in school, that are better than pretty much any American pro/streamer, and yet can't get past Code B/A or stay on a team? Or about the fact that Life, Maru are still in high school just like your neeb example. It's not like the world is different in Korea. The biggest advantage that Korea has is that it's smaller than America, and people can travel easily, but it doesn't change the fact that players, pro or semi-pro, don't play as well as any Korean that's putting any bit of time. They come on the forums and complain about it, and when the community (read: TotalBiscuit), gives them a tournament to actually compete in, players just randomly drop out and don't show up and it becomes a huge drama shitfest.
It's easy Chaggi, he ignores that part because it makes his argument look silly and stupid (which it is) even though it's true. To add to this, Korean players get much fewer opportunities to prove themselves or earn any money simply because there are so very few tournaments there. Stuff like the ESV Weeklies, the EWM, the KSL, FXO invitationals and KotH events and various other online tournaments helped a bit, but those are long gone. And yet you don't see them beg for charity and whine on forums about it...
You have a cutthroat environment that breeds strong players as a result of how fierce the competition is and how scarce the opportunities are. Why should they be less deserving of success than the people who don't even bother to do well in the tournaments that are at their doorstep or in which they're seeded/invited? Why should they be less deserving of opportunities than the people who repeatedly have shown that they don't give enough of a shit about the tons of opportunities they're already given to begin with?
If anyone thinks "charity" events for a certain region are needed, I don't fundamentally disagree with that idea. But that certain region would have to be Korea.
I ignored it because it deserved to be ignored. It would be different if it wasn't a Korean saying it. This guy knows better, though. That's like tooting your horn because you're a Canadian kid that happens to be better at hockey than a Mexican in Mexico. Wow, that's says a lot. Pat on the back. That just stresses the importance of comparing people who play in the same environment.
Minigun could be just as talented, if not more talented, than any Korean, but if he can't practice against Koreans (which he can't), simply due to where he is located, then how the hell are these players supposed to get better if every practice game they play, they are playing against weaker opponents? Then, you add in that he is going to college, yet players like this are supposed to fare well against Koreans. It's a testament to how talented some of these players are in the NA that they can do anything.
The sentiment has always been to be the best, you have to move to Korea. We have what, 1 team house here? It's a joke playing in NA. No one plays SC 2 competitively here, in NA, as there is no reason to try to. Who is going to coach you? Even if we had a similarly talented player as Maru, it would just be wasted. He'd prob be going to school and working... and wondering where can I get coaching to take me to the next level? He would prob be better off playing LoL.
On April 07 2014 17:58 esdf wrote: NA qualis now officially a career restart point for shitty hasbeen koreans.
Bomber, Polt, Tajea, HyuN.
Shitty hasbeen Koreans. The level of What-the-fuck here is beyond imagination, please manner-up.
Talking about the other half of the bracket. Would prefer shitty neverbeen americans to hasbeens. Blizzard really needs to do something with who's allowed and who's not allowed to participate in each region.
It's not Blizzard's problem to fix.
If the best North America has to offer can't even compete with "has been" Koreans then what the fuck is the point of giving them tickets to Blizzcon?
Honestly answer that for me? Other than wanting to just make sure that the Foreigners get a bigger slice of the Prize pool pie that they haven't earned, what is the point of sending them to the higher tournaments only so they can get crushed by the top tier Koreans.
How many NA players are actually making money worth mentioning, via SC 2? If you're not making money, you have to find other avenues. If you're not going to increase the amount of NA players who can devote the time to the game, as you would another job, then how are you supposed to catch up to the Koreans who are already better, when the game is already a viable job to them?
WCS AM only hurts NA players' chances of being able to compete at the level of Koreans. We're now relying on talented kids who are still going to school, while facing Koreans who are only tasked with playing SC 2... That's our best bet due to the lack of opportunities Blizzard provides NA players who need something they can call a job.
Progaming was a RISK. Progaming is a RISK. Progaming will be a RISK in the future.
Its not a job that is 'safe' income like other jobs. You are still not entitled to earn money or get far in tournaments, because you are from the region and/or call yourself progamer. I dare to say the Koreans (in general) and those which take part in WCS NA have the same or a higher risk. NA progamers are usually paid and/or paid more than the average Korean. Do you believe Arthur gets rich of progaming? Do you really believe he earns more than DemusliM/Xenocider etc? I cannot say, because I don't know - but I am willing to say I really don't believe it.
Lots of you guys assume viewership is worth a ton, which is true, but you use it as pro to an MORE american based tournament which is the mistake. An all NA Ro8 wouldn't bring half as many viewers. If you want foreigners in your Ro8 - go fucking cheer on them or whatever, but its still THEIR JOB to qualify. If they cannot make it - they are not deserving of that spot.
Scarlett, MajOr are fantastic players. Neeb and pucK were 1/2 maps away from qualifying. Go cheer for them the next time.
Do you see us crying in Europe? We have 5 Koreans in the Ro8, but I believe that the players we have in the Ro8 are all worthy and can take out the Koreans.
Snute can beat MMA VortiX in his current form is favorite over jjakji Welmu can take out san even though thats tricky.
If you want to help your players, stop trying to cut out the competition but rather support them in gaining some confidence. Personally I wouldn't want to be an American pro. The fanbase is a SHAME to the scene. No progamer in NA probably has the slightest feeling of being believed in, because everyone just talks about "ban the Koreans".
Do you really believe that will help the NA scene grow and get better? NOPE
On April 08 2014 16:11 playa wrote:There was a post on reddit about Blizzard not even promoting WCS AM the other day. They're probably embarrassed by this tournament and where it's taking place. Who is thrilled at the moment?
Are you for real? Do you actually exist as a human being who thinks these things? Because if you've been paying ANY attention to this thread whatsoever, plenty of people are thrilled.
In fact, if WCS AM becomes 100% Korean, I'll be even more thrilled than I am now. I won't lie, a very tiny bit of that will be out of spite.
Plenty of people? This is getting no more viewers than shoutcraft got. When Blizzard doesn't bother to promote it, that's kinda telling. When the business that is running WCS stops running it, mid-season, you know things aren't so hot.
Yes, but it's not just today's viewer numbers that are at stake, is it? Blizzcon viewership is also at stake, and that's a huge deal for Blizzard. If half of the first round is Koreans dominating Americans, here's what happens: lots of viewers don't watch (the advertisements), casters end up being brutally honest and bringing down the hype OR embarrassing themselves by overhyping shitty games, the organizers can't construct an entertaining narrative because they have to guess which games get cast by Apollo vs. which games get handed off to unaffiliated D-list casters -- people don't just watch games based on who's playing, they watch games based on who's casting, too.
You keep thinking of WCS AM as a contained entity, but it isn't. It's a part of WCS and it feeds into the world finals. That aspect of it is more important than the part that is WCS AM, both to many viewers and, as evidenced by their lack of action, to Blizzard.
I'm very excited to tune into WCS AM for the first time ever for this RO8!
I wish there were more NA players, but it does to some degree fall onto them.
I do take issue with the fact we're still talking about regions, when in reality it might be the most fun to just combine all the WCS regions into one entirely global thing. It's so korean dominated that to call it WCS America is hardly genuine.
One of the main reasons I've 99% stopped watching pro starcraft is no westerners, no hype. I came back to watch shoutcraft, and apart form that have watched a couple streams rarely.
I"d much rather watch some random NA dota teams than a bunch of noname koreans in WCS america. I wish we could get some more americans to the top, but as the system is it seems unlikely they will get to the top. We're at a place where WCS America is really WCS Sponsored korean in hte Ro8+, and I don't see that changing. (for good reason). But trying to reconcile it being WCS 'america' with that fact is the sticking point for me.
On April 08 2014 18:31 Froadac wrote: I wish there were more NA players, but it does to some degree fall onto them.
I do take issue with the fact we're still talking about regions, when in reality it might be the most fun to just combine all the WCS regions into one entirely global thing. It's so korean dominated that to call it WCS America is hardly genuine.
One of the main reasons I've 99% stopped watching pro starcraft is no westerners, no hype. I came back to watch shoutcraft, and apart form that have watched a couple streams rarely.
I"d much rather watch some random NA dota teams than a bunch of noname koreans in WCS america. I wish we could get some more americans to the top, but as the system is it seems unlikely they will get to the top. We're at a place where WCS America is really WCS Sponsored korean in hte Ro8+, and I don't see that changing. (for good reason). But trying to reconcile it being WCS 'america' with that fact is the sticking point for me.
If you look at the people who made the Ro8 this season and also at some of those who got eliminated and can say with a straight face and genuine seriousness that they're "a bunch of noname koreans" then perhaps we are better off without you watching.
On April 08 2014 18:31 Froadac wrote: I wish there were more NA players, but it does to some degree fall onto them.
I do take issue with the fact we're still talking about regions, when in reality it might be the most fun to just combine all the WCS regions into one entirely global thing. It's so korean dominated that to call it WCS America is hardly genuine.
One of the main reasons I've 99% stopped watching pro starcraft is no westerners, no hype. I came back to watch shoutcraft, and apart form that have watched a couple streams rarely.
I"d much rather watch some random NA dota teams than a bunch of noname koreans in WCS america. I wish we could get some more americans to the top, but as the system is it seems unlikely they will get to the top. We're at a place where WCS America is really WCS Sponsored korean in hte Ro8+, and I don't see that changing. (for good reason). But trying to reconcile it being WCS 'america' with that fact is the sticking point for me.
WCS America, has and always has been - by Blizzard's definition - a tournament played IN America. That's it. Anyone else who thinks otherwise is making up their own definition or their own analogy to other sports. Argue all you want if you think it should be different, or that Americans should get more protected spots, whatever - but that was never the initial intention from the get-go. Blizzard has done a lot of stupid and illogical things before, but I find it really unlikely that they would think that having a tournament in America would stop Koreans from coming to dominate.
The simple fact of the matter is, the NA scene is really bad. They've been bad, and they're probably continuing to be bad. There are some really awesome foreigners like Scarlett, and Naniwa (RIP) and lots of people who are up and coming that can compete in their own regions (Neeb, Major, Xeno, Minigun, etc) but everyone knows that the true attraction for viewers is when a foreign player can play against a Korean. Despite the fact that there are so many more online tournaments, smaller tournaments and movements to get NA players together like what's in Korea, no one in NA really is taking advantage of it, nor are they practicing as hard, or harder than even the semi-pro Koreans. So why should we as a community give spots for them? If you want to see home-grown talent, go find some of the smaller tournaments and it's filled with mid/high GM's and NA pros that are grinding out for their bit of money. NA as a scene hasn't proven itself capable to succeed even when given all these advantages, so why bother?
On April 08 2014 12:19 Sevre wrote: As much as I do not want to wade into this, I can't resist but point out the flaw in the "national pride" argument. People only want to watch out of nationalistic desire when the presence of another nationality poses an obstacle. Keeping Koreans out of leagues isn't going to increase viewer numbers. We're more interested in seeing Scarlett stomp Koreans than seeing Scarlett stomp local players.
I want to see the Korean dominance end as much as the next foreigner, but that requires skill and resources which the scene just doesn't have, and region locking to create this veneer of regional pride is not going to help the scene.
You're missing the point. To be the best at anything, you need to have talent + dedication + sufficient income. Until being one of the best players in a country means some financially, how can you grow your talent base? How can you keep your talent in the game? If it's a hobby to one person and a job to another, that gap in skill should never close. You have to increase the number of people that can pursue it as a job.
People who scoff at the NA scene need some perspective. Is there any profession in the NA where you could say you're in the top 32 of the NA, yet you still have to call it a hobby? It makes no sense for NA players to be in such of a predicament. That's a recipe for a dead game, when people have no incentive to be one of the best in the NA. We're not talking about a small scope, either. We're talking about being amongst the best, out of hundreds of thousands of people.
You can't compete with Koreans until you attract more talent and create more jobs for said players, enabling them to practice 8 hours instead of working another job on the side for 8 hours a day....
Idra has gone from one of the better players in the NA to being out of the scene. It's insane to lose such a fan draw + talented player due to only rewarding like the best 32 players in the whole world. He retired after he failed to qualify for WCS. You know, the tournament that has essentially become the only tournament...
No one has more money in the scene than Blizzard. It is their game. If Blizzard isn't going to take charge in growing scenes, then who is? This game needs to grow, because at it's current state, its not exactly encouraging anyone to do much of anything.
There are probably hobbies/professions like that, you've just never heard of them for that very reason.
People talk about the NA region like they need help, but honestly - it's up to the players to actually practice and compete. Stop depending on Blizzard to do something, if they wanted to create a viable NA scene, they would've done it by now.
That's the thing, though. They have acknowledged this and realized it was idiotic to keep it how it was, whether people understand this or not. The problem is now the pace that changes actually take effect. They try to be politically correct, though, and hope things will work themselves out. They don't want to get their hands dirty so to speak, but they fail to realize the absurdity of relying on kids like neeb, who are still in school, to knock out Korean pros who play 14 hours a day.
You have to be a little more proactive than that.
Why ignore the fact that there are lots of Koreans that are also in school, that are better than pretty much any American pro/streamer, and yet can't get past Code B/A or stay on a team? Or about the fact that Life, Maru are still in high school just like your neeb example. It's not like the world is different in Korea. The biggest advantage that Korea has is that it's smaller than America, and people can travel easily, but it doesn't change the fact that players, pro or semi-pro, don't play as well as any Korean that's putting any bit of time. They come on the forums and complain about it, and when the community (read: TotalBiscuit), gives them a tournament to actually compete in, players just randomly drop out and don't show up and it becomes a huge drama shitfest.
It's easy Chaggi, he ignores that part because it makes his argument look silly and stupid (which it is) even though it's true. To add to this, Korean players get much fewer opportunities to prove themselves or earn any money simply because there are so very few tournaments there. Stuff like the ESV Weeklies, the EWM, the KSL, FXO invitationals and KotH events and various other online tournaments helped a bit, but those are long gone. And yet you don't see them beg for charity and whine on forums about it...
You have a cutthroat environment that breeds strong players as a result of how fierce the competition is and how scarce the opportunities are. Why should they be less deserving of success than the people who don't even bother to do well in the tournaments that are at their doorstep or in which they're seeded/invited? Why should they be less deserving of opportunities than the people who repeatedly have shown that they don't give enough of a shit about the tons of opportunities they're already given to begin with?
If anyone thinks "charity" events for a certain region are needed, I don't fundamentally disagree with that idea. But that certain region would have to be Korea.
I ignored it because it deserved to be ignored. It would be different if it wasn't a Korean saying it. This guy knows better, though. That's like tooting your horn because you're a Canadian kid that happens to be better at hockey than a Mexican in Mexico. Wow, that's says a lot. Pat on the back. That just stresses the importance of comparing people who play in the same environment.
Minigun could be just as talented, if not more talented, than any Korean, but if he can't practice against Koreans (which he can't), simply due to where he is located, then how the hell are these players supposed to get better if every practice game they play, they are playing against weaker opponents? Then, you add in that he is going to college, yet players like this are supposed to fare well against Koreans. It's a testament to how talented some of these players are in the NA that they can do anything.
The sentiment has always been to be the best, you have to move to Korea. We have what, 1 team house here? It's a joke playing in NA. No one plays SC 2 competitively here, in NA, as there is no reason to try to. Who is going to coach you? Even if we had a similarly talented player as Maru, it would just be wasted. He'd prob be going to school and working... and wondering where can I get coaching to take me to the next level? He would prob be better off playing LoL.
You can easily play against better players from the west coast without moving to Korea. People have said that the ping isn't really that bad, and you see people in NA do that.
You bring up this school argument again and again, but I feel like you don't really understand that Koreans have lives outside of SC too, and that there's arguably even more pressure to do well in school here considering a stupid amount of people in Korea have college degrees and yet no one's hiring in the current economic recession that is Korea now. Korea's not some magical fucking place where you have no responsibilities and can just play games all day. These kids literally sacrifice their childhoods to play games 12-14+ hours a day, while taking care of, or flat out neglecting their responsibilities for the future. They literally are going all-in on a career choice that's already insanely saturated in Korea.
Sucks they're not white and can't just stream and make at least some money.
On April 08 2014 12:19 Sevre wrote: As much as I do not want to wade into this, I can't resist but point out the flaw in the "national pride" argument. People only want to watch out of nationalistic desire when the presence of another nationality poses an obstacle. Keeping Koreans out of leagues isn't going to increase viewer numbers. We're more interested in seeing Scarlett stomp Koreans than seeing Scarlett stomp local players.
I want to see the Korean dominance end as much as the next foreigner, but that requires skill and resources which the scene just doesn't have, and region locking to create this veneer of regional pride is not going to help the scene.
You're missing the point. To be the best at anything, you need to have talent + dedication + sufficient income. Until being one of the best players in a country means some financially, how can you grow your talent base? How can you keep your talent in the game? If it's a hobby to one person and a job to another, that gap in skill should never close. You have to increase the number of people that can pursue it as a job.
People who scoff at the NA scene need some perspective. Is there any profession in the NA where you could say you're in the top 32 of the NA, yet you still have to call it a hobby? It makes no sense for NA players to be in such of a predicament. That's a recipe for a dead game, when people have no incentive to be one of the best in the NA. We're not talking about a small scope, either. We're talking about being amongst the best, out of hundreds of thousands of people.
You can't compete with Koreans until you attract more talent and create more jobs for said players, enabling them to practice 8 hours instead of working another job on the side for 8 hours a day....
Idra has gone from one of the better players in the NA to being out of the scene. It's insane to lose such a fan draw + talented player due to only rewarding like the best 32 players in the whole world. He retired after he failed to qualify for WCS. You know, the tournament that has essentially become the only tournament...
No one has more money in the scene than Blizzard. It is their game. If Blizzard isn't going to take charge in growing scenes, then who is? This game needs to grow, because at it's current state, its not exactly encouraging anyone to do much of anything.
There are probably hobbies/professions like that, you've just never heard of them for that very reason.
People talk about the NA region like they need help, but honestly - it's up to the players to actually practice and compete. Stop depending on Blizzard to do something, if they wanted to create a viable NA scene, they would've done it by now.
That's the thing, though. They have acknowledged this and realized it was idiotic to keep it how it was, whether people understand this or not. The problem is now the pace that changes actually take effect. They try to be politically correct, though, and hope things will work themselves out. They don't want to get their hands dirty so to speak, but they fail to realize the absurdity of relying on kids like neeb, who are still in school, to knock out Korean pros who play 14 hours a day.
You have to be a little more proactive than that.
Why ignore the fact that there are lots of Koreans that are also in school, that are better than pretty much any American pro/streamer, and yet can't get past Code B/A or stay on a team? Or about the fact that Life, Maru are still in high school just like your neeb example. It's not like the world is different in Korea. The biggest advantage that Korea has is that it's smaller than America, and people can travel easily, but it doesn't change the fact that players, pro or semi-pro, don't play as well as any Korean that's putting any bit of time. They come on the forums and complain about it, and when the community (read: TotalBiscuit), gives them a tournament to actually compete in, players just randomly drop out and don't show up and it becomes a huge drama shitfest.
It's easy Chaggi, he ignores that part because it makes his argument look silly and stupid (which it is) even though it's true. To add to this, Korean players get much fewer opportunities to prove themselves or earn any money simply because there are so very few tournaments there. Stuff like the ESV Weeklies, the EWM, the KSL, FXO invitationals and KotH events and various other online tournaments helped a bit, but those are long gone. And yet you don't see them beg for charity and whine on forums about it...
You have a cutthroat environment that breeds strong players as a result of how fierce the competition is and how scarce the opportunities are. Why should they be less deserving of success than the people who don't even bother to do well in the tournaments that are at their doorstep or in which they're seeded/invited? Why should they be less deserving of opportunities than the people who repeatedly have shown that they don't give enough of a shit about the tons of opportunities they're already given to begin with?
If anyone thinks "charity" events for a certain region are needed, I don't fundamentally disagree with that idea. But that certain region would have to be Korea.
I ignored it because it deserved to be ignored. It would be different if it wasn't a Korean saying it. This guy knows better, though. That's like tooting your horn because you're a Canadian kid that happens to be better at hockey than a Mexican in Mexico. Wow, that's says a lot. Pat on the back. That just stresses the importance of comparing people who play in the same environment.
Minigun could be just as talented, if not more talented, than any Korean, but if he can't practice against Koreans (which he can't), simply due to where he is located, then how the hell are these players supposed to get better if every practice game they play, they are playing against weaker opponents? Then, you add in that he is going to college, yet players like this are supposed to fare well against Koreans. It's a testament to how talented some of these players are in the NA that they can do anything.
The sentiment has always been to be the best, you have to move to Korea. We have what, 1 team house here? It's a joke playing in NA. No one plays SC 2 competitively here, in NA, as there is no reason to try to. Who is going to coach you? Even if we had a similarly talented player as Maru, it would just be wasted. He'd prob be going to school and working... and wondering where can I get coaching to take me to the next level? He would prob be better off playing LoL.
Polt is both studying and playing in the US, yet he just keeps getting better and better. That must seem like magic to you. The reason that Polt was first in his group and Minigun was 4th isn't that Minigun doesn't have the same opportunity as Polt. It's just that Polt practises harder and more methodically.
On April 08 2014 12:19 Sevre wrote: As much as I do not want to wade into this, I can't resist but point out the flaw in the "national pride" argument. People only want to watch out of nationalistic desire when the presence of another nationality poses an obstacle. Keeping Koreans out of leagues isn't going to increase viewer numbers. We're more interested in seeing Scarlett stomp Koreans than seeing Scarlett stomp local players.
I want to see the Korean dominance end as much as the next foreigner, but that requires skill and resources which the scene just doesn't have, and region locking to create this veneer of regional pride is not going to help the scene.
You're missing the point. To be the best at anything, you need to have talent + dedication + sufficient income. Until being one of the best players in a country means some financially, how can you grow your talent base? How can you keep your talent in the game? If it's a hobby to one person and a job to another, that gap in skill should never close. You have to increase the number of people that can pursue it as a job.
People who scoff at the NA scene need some perspective. Is there any profession in the NA where you could say you're in the top 32 of the NA, yet you still have to call it a hobby? It makes no sense for NA players to be in such of a predicament. That's a recipe for a dead game, when people have no incentive to be one of the best in the NA. We're not talking about a small scope, either. We're talking about being amongst the best, out of hundreds of thousands of people.
You can't compete with Koreans until you attract more talent and create more jobs for said players, enabling them to practice 8 hours instead of working another job on the side for 8 hours a day....
Idra has gone from one of the better players in the NA to being out of the scene. It's insane to lose such a fan draw + talented player due to only rewarding like the best 32 players in the whole world. He retired after he failed to qualify for WCS. You know, the tournament that has essentially become the only tournament...
No one has more money in the scene than Blizzard. It is their game. If Blizzard isn't going to take charge in growing scenes, then who is? This game needs to grow, because at it's current state, its not exactly encouraging anyone to do much of anything.
There are probably hobbies/professions like that, you've just never heard of them for that very reason.
People talk about the NA region like they need help, but honestly - it's up to the players to actually practice and compete. Stop depending on Blizzard to do something, if they wanted to create a viable NA scene, they would've done it by now.
That's the thing, though. They have acknowledged this and realized it was idiotic to keep it how it was, whether people understand this or not. The problem is now the pace that changes actually take effect. They try to be politically correct, though, and hope things will work themselves out. They don't want to get their hands dirty so to speak, but they fail to realize the absurdity of relying on kids like neeb, who are still in school, to knock out Korean pros who play 14 hours a day.
You have to be a little more proactive than that.
Why ignore the fact that there are lots of Koreans that are also in school, that are better than pretty much any American pro/streamer, and yet can't get past Code B/A or stay on a team? Or about the fact that Life, Maru are still in high school just like your neeb example. It's not like the world is different in Korea. The biggest advantage that Korea has is that it's smaller than America, and people can travel easily, but it doesn't change the fact that players, pro or semi-pro, don't play as well as any Korean that's putting any bit of time. They come on the forums and complain about it, and when the community (read: TotalBiscuit), gives them a tournament to actually compete in, players just randomly drop out and don't show up and it becomes a huge drama shitfest.
It's easy Chaggi, he ignores that part because it makes his argument look silly and stupid (which it is) even though it's true. To add to this, Korean players get much fewer opportunities to prove themselves or earn any money simply because there are so very few tournaments there. Stuff like the ESV Weeklies, the EWM, the KSL, FXO invitationals and KotH events and various other online tournaments helped a bit, but those are long gone. And yet you don't see them beg for charity and whine on forums about it...
You have a cutthroat environment that breeds strong players as a result of how fierce the competition is and how scarce the opportunities are. Why should they be less deserving of success than the people who don't even bother to do well in the tournaments that are at their doorstep or in which they're seeded/invited? Why should they be less deserving of opportunities than the people who repeatedly have shown that they don't give enough of a shit about the tons of opportunities they're already given to begin with?
If anyone thinks "charity" events for a certain region are needed, I don't fundamentally disagree with that idea. But that certain region would have to be Korea.
I ignored it because it deserved to be ignored. It would be different if it wasn't a Korean saying it. This guy knows better, though. That's like tooting your horn because you're a Canadian kid that happens to be better at hockey than a Mexican in Mexico. Wow, that's says a lot. Pat on the back. That just stresses the importance of comparing people who play in the same environment.
You make more sense than FOX news. guy. just brilliant use of FOX logic and common sense over here...
On April 08 2014 16:11 playa wrote:There was a post on reddit about Blizzard not even promoting WCS AM the other day. They're probably embarrassed by this tournament and where it's taking place. Who is thrilled at the moment?
Are you for real? Do you actually exist as a human being who thinks these things? Because if you've been paying ANY attention to this thread whatsoever, plenty of people are thrilled.
In fact, if WCS AM becomes 100% Korean, I'll be even more thrilled than I am now. I won't lie, a very tiny bit of that will be out of spite.
Plenty of people? This is getting no more viewers than shoutcraft got. When Blizzard doesn't bother to promote it, that's kinda telling. When the business that is running WCS stops running it, mid-season, you know things aren't so hot.
Yes, but it's not just today's viewer numbers that are at stake, is it? Blizzcon viewership is also at stake, and that's a huge deal for Blizzard. If half of the first round is Koreans dominating Americans, here's what happens: lots of viewers don't watch (the advertisements), casters end up being brutally honest and bringing down the hype OR embarrassing themselves by overhyping shitty games, the organizers can't construct an entertaining narrative because they have to guess which games get cast by Apollo vs. which games get handed off to unaffiliated D-list casters -- people don't just watch games based on who's playing, they watch games based on who's casting, too.
You keep thinking of WCS AM as a contained entity, but it isn't. It's a part of WCS and it feeds into the world finals. That aspect of it is more important than the part that is WCS AM, both to many viewers and, as evidenced by their lack of action, to Blizzard.
I'm very excited to tune into WCS AM for the first time ever for this RO8!
I see some bullshit never changes here. Last time I checked the viewer base hasn't changed all that much. Casters have always over hype the games. They've always tried to sell them. Same deal with storytelling bud. We've been knocking the organizers for years about that.
Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
why are people still crying about this? it was obvious it was gonna happen sooner or later and eventually the professional sc2 scene will completely die off outside of korea similar to BW.basically one can look at the course of the BW professional scene and accurately predict the course the SC2 scene is going to take
Blizzard really messed up when they changed formats from 2012 to 2013. In 2012, they had a very cool format that needed some tweaks and suffered from a few execution issues. Despite the issues, the European final was one of the highlights in all of Starcraft 2 history. The AM final was unfortunately tacked onto another event, but still was pretty cool to see Scarlett (the Canadian champion) play Vibe (the US champion) for the American championship.
If Blizzard would have tweaked the format a little to reduce travel costs and made it more than a once a year event, they could have really done something good for the scene. All they really needed to do was reduce the numbers that played at a live event from 64 (in USA) down to 16 or 8. Similarly reduce the regional final numbers, and then only do the global final once a year at Blizzcon with just 2-3 AM region representatives. Then they would have spent around the same amount of money while holding 3-4 WCS events each year.
The 2012 structure helped the Canadian and American scenes, but had the issue of only being once a year. Guys that put the work in actually had something to play for, even if it was just for that brief couple of months. I watched live as a little known streamer named Avilo played in one of the last qualifiers to get to the US championships. It was an awesome emotional moment when he made it.
I know what Scarlett (2012 -1st), Vibe (2012 -2nd), Idra (2012 -3rd), Major (2012 -4th), Huk (2012 -5th), and Suppy (2012 -6th) all look like. I got to see their personality quirks during interviews pre and post matches and when they were in the booth. The American audience got to see their local players who come from the same area, speak the same language, and deal with similar issues they do. I started to care about these people because I got to know them just a little bit. I wanted to keep watching them as a fan. I also got to see their sponsors plastered all over their clothing, which is extremely important.
In 2014, that has all changed. Now, be the best American and you can make the Ro16. Great, you still get zero live exposure. That means your face never gets out there, and your sponsors never get any exposure. No exposure = no more sponsor and the money dries up. The idea of American team houses and full-time players goes away. Neeb might be the best US player right now, but he is a faceless American. It's appropriate that his liquipedia article has no image, and I didn't even know that he was on Fnatic until I just went to his page to see what he looked like.
To me, he's the same as a faceless Korean and he'll only ever become something more if he can ever break that barrier and get some real live exposure. That means he needs to beat a bunch of people who live in Korean team houses and train 8+ hours a day with other highly dedicated players. Without moving to the other side of the world, that opportunity doesn't exist for him. Neeb most likely isn't going to beat the Koreans and the Koreans will continue to get all the real exposure.
So good for the Koreans, right? No, and that's the real problem. It works when there's one or a very small handful of Koreans to be the bad guys that your local stars play against. They thrive in the villain role and get their own fan-base while earning a lot of prize money. Watching someone similar to you play against the best in the world is entertainment beyond the game itself that keeps you wanting more.
Now, when Americans watch Starcraft, it's a bunch of people who are from half a world away, come from a very different culture, give awkward interviews through translators, and deal with different issues than we're used to. I turn off the stream during most Korean interviews. Only a very rare few Koreans have actually tried to endear themselves to a western audience (Polt and MC come to mind) and I rarely have anyone to root for. The quality of the games themselves are quite high, but there's little outside of the game to be interested in. I don't care who wins. With most of the players involved, I might as well just watch replays.
How many people actually watch replays? It's rare.
And then the problem starts to poke through. Watching eight Koreans duke it out in the WCS AM is akin to watching replays for most Americans. So, they don't watch. If you have few watchers, then you can't profitably produce content and your product dies.
The SC2 viewer base is already on life-support in America. Keep pushing it for too much longer and it'll be gone. Then what? All those Koreans in WCS NA will have to go back to GSL and PL. Except, you've also killed the vast majority of American interest in Korean Starcraft. People that watch American Starcraft will occasionally want to see the game played at the highest level and tune in to Korea. I've done quite a few late night viewings of the GSL over the years, but my SC2 interest in the last year has seriously waned.
If those people (like me) no longer exist, you hurt GSL and PL viewership. You end up with a foreign viewer base for SC2 that will be similar in size to BW. That's not enough to support anything by itself, and this time around you don't have the massive popularity in Korea that you did with BW.
SC2 needs a foreign audience or else it crumbles in Korea too. Large-scale Korean participation in WCS AM is killing the American audience. You better hope that Europe holds on or else SC2 viewership will actually be dead worldwide. That's not good for anyone, foreigner or Korean.
On April 08 2014 16:11 playa wrote:There was a post on reddit about Blizzard not even promoting WCS AM the other day. They're probably embarrassed by this tournament and where it's taking place. Who is thrilled at the moment?
Are you for real? Do you actually exist as a human being who thinks these things? Because if you've been paying ANY attention to this thread whatsoever, plenty of people are thrilled.
In fact, if WCS AM becomes 100% Korean, I'll be even more thrilled than I am now. I won't lie, a very tiny bit of that will be out of spite.
Plenty of people? This is getting no more viewers than shoutcraft got. When Blizzard doesn't bother to promote it, that's kinda telling. When the business that is running WCS stops running it, mid-season, you know things aren't so hot.
Yes, but it's not just today's viewer numbers that are at stake, is it? Blizzcon viewership is also at stake, and that's a huge deal for Blizzard. If half of the first round is Koreans dominating Americans, here's what happens: lots of viewers don't watch (the advertisements), casters end up being brutally honest and bringing down the hype OR embarrassing themselves by overhyping shitty games, the organizers can't construct an entertaining narrative because they have to guess which games get cast by Apollo vs. which games get handed off to unaffiliated D-list casters -- people don't just watch games based on who's playing, they watch games based on who's casting, too.
You keep thinking of WCS AM as a contained entity, but it isn't. It's a part of WCS and it feeds into the world finals. That aspect of it is more important than the part that is WCS AM, both to many viewers and, as evidenced by their lack of action, to Blizzard.
I'm very excited to tune into WCS AM for the first time ever for this RO8!
I see some bullshit never changes here. Last time I checked the viewer base hasn't changed all that much. Casters have always over hype the games. They've always tried to sell them. Same deal with storytelling bud. We've been knocking the organizers for years about that.
You are spewing out the same old crap.
the amount of viewers has most definetly decreased with rare exceptions like the blizzcon finals
On April 08 2014 16:11 playa wrote:There was a post on reddit about Blizzard not even promoting WCS AM the other day. They're probably embarrassed by this tournament and where it's taking place. Who is thrilled at the moment?
Are you for real? Do you actually exist as a human being who thinks these things? Because if you've been paying ANY attention to this thread whatsoever, plenty of people are thrilled.
In fact, if WCS AM becomes 100% Korean, I'll be even more thrilled than I am now. I won't lie, a very tiny bit of that will be out of spite.
Plenty of people? This is getting no more viewers than shoutcraft got. When Blizzard doesn't bother to promote it, that's kinda telling. When the business that is running WCS stops running it, mid-season, you know things aren't so hot.
Yes, but it's not just today's viewer numbers that are at stake, is it? Blizzcon viewership is also at stake, and that's a huge deal for Blizzard. If half of the first round is Koreans dominating Americans, here's what happens: lots of viewers don't watch (the advertisements), casters end up being brutally honest and bringing down the hype OR embarrassing themselves by overhyping shitty games, the organizers can't construct an entertaining narrative because they have to guess which games get cast by Apollo vs. which games get handed off to unaffiliated D-list casters -- people don't just watch games based on who's playing, they watch games based on who's casting, too.
You keep thinking of WCS AM as a contained entity, but it isn't. It's a part of WCS and it feeds into the world finals. That aspect of it is more important than the part that is WCS AM, both to many viewers and, as evidenced by their lack of action, to Blizzard.
I'm very excited to tune into WCS AM for the first time ever for this RO8!
I see some bullshit never changes here. Last time I checked the viewer base hasn't changed all that much. Casters have always over hype the games. They've always tried to sell them. Same deal with storytelling bud. We've been knocking the organizers for years about that.
You are spewing out the same old crap.
I don't even know what you're talking about. Viewer base hasn't changed? I'm talking about what would happen to the viewer numbers at Blizzcon if half of Blizzcon was shitty American players. Obviously the numbers "haven't changed all that much" because Blizzard hasn't actually changed WCS to be this thing that playa wants it to be.
It is profitable for Blizzard to allow the best players in the world to compete at Blizzcon. Whether you think it's good or bad that nothing will change, nothing will change.
On April 08 2014 16:11 playa wrote:There was a post on reddit about Blizzard not even promoting WCS AM the other day. They're probably embarrassed by this tournament and where it's taking place. Who is thrilled at the moment?
Are you for real? Do you actually exist as a human being who thinks these things? Because if you've been paying ANY attention to this thread whatsoever, plenty of people are thrilled.
In fact, if WCS AM becomes 100% Korean, I'll be even more thrilled than I am now. I won't lie, a very tiny bit of that will be out of spite.
Plenty of people? This is getting no more viewers than shoutcraft got. When Blizzard doesn't bother to promote it, that's kinda telling. When the business that is running WCS stops running it, mid-season, you know things aren't so hot.
Yes, but it's not just today's viewer numbers that are at stake, is it? Blizzcon viewership is also at stake, and that's a huge deal for Blizzard. If half of the first round is Koreans dominating Americans, here's what happens: lots of viewers don't watch (the advertisements), casters end up being brutally honest and bringing down the hype OR embarrassing themselves by overhyping shitty games, the organizers can't construct an entertaining narrative because they have to guess which games get cast by Apollo vs. which games get handed off to unaffiliated D-list casters -- people don't just watch games based on who's playing, they watch games based on who's casting, too.
You keep thinking of WCS AM as a contained entity, but it isn't. It's a part of WCS and it feeds into the world finals. That aspect of it is more important than the part that is WCS AM, both to many viewers and, as evidenced by their lack of action, to Blizzard.
I'm very excited to tune into WCS AM for the first time ever for this RO8!
I see some bullshit never changes here. Last time I checked the viewer base hasn't changed all that much. Casters have always over hype the games. They've always tried to sell them. Same deal with storytelling bud. We've been knocking the organizers for years about that.
You are spewing out the same old crap.
I don't even know what you're talking about. Viewer base hasn't changed? I'm talking about what would happen to the viewer numbers at Blizzcon if half of Blizzcon was shitty American players. Obviously the numbers "haven't changed all that much" because Blizzard hasn't actually changed WCS to be this thing that playa wants it to be.
It is profitable for Blizzard to allow the best players in the world to compete at Blizzcon. Whether you think it's good or bad that nothing will change, nothing will change.
If LCS is any indication since they do exactly the same thing (everyone knows the Korean teams will win and are the best but they don't invite all Korean teams) it doesn't impact the viewership in a negative way at all
I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
On April 08 2014 16:11 playa wrote:There was a post on reddit about Blizzard not even promoting WCS AM the other day. They're probably embarrassed by this tournament and where it's taking place. Who is thrilled at the moment?
Are you for real? Do you actually exist as a human being who thinks these things? Because if you've been paying ANY attention to this thread whatsoever, plenty of people are thrilled.
In fact, if WCS AM becomes 100% Korean, I'll be even more thrilled than I am now. I won't lie, a very tiny bit of that will be out of spite.
Plenty of people? This is getting no more viewers than shoutcraft got. When Blizzard doesn't bother to promote it, that's kinda telling. When the business that is running WCS stops running it, mid-season, you know things aren't so hot.
Yes, but it's not just today's viewer numbers that are at stake, is it? Blizzcon viewership is also at stake, and that's a huge deal for Blizzard. If half of the first round is Koreans dominating Americans, here's what happens: lots of viewers don't watch (the advertisements), casters end up being brutally honest and bringing down the hype OR embarrassing themselves by overhyping shitty games, the organizers can't construct an entertaining narrative because they have to guess which games get cast by Apollo vs. which games get handed off to unaffiliated D-list casters -- people don't just watch games based on who's playing, they watch games based on who's casting, too.
You keep thinking of WCS AM as a contained entity, but it isn't. It's a part of WCS and it feeds into the world finals. That aspect of it is more important than the part that is WCS AM, both to many viewers and, as evidenced by their lack of action, to Blizzard.
I'm very excited to tune into WCS AM for the first time ever for this RO8!
I see some bullshit never changes here. Last time I checked the viewer base hasn't changed all that much. Casters have always over hype the games. They've always tried to sell them. Same deal with storytelling bud. We've been knocking the organizers for years about that.
You are spewing out the same old crap.
I don't even know what you're talking about. Viewer base hasn't changed? I'm talking about what would happen to the viewer numbers at Blizzcon if half of Blizzcon was shitty American players. Obviously the numbers "haven't changed all that much" because Blizzard hasn't actually changed WCS to be this thing that playa wants it to be.
It is profitable for Blizzard to allow the best players in the world to compete at Blizzcon. Whether you think it's good or bad that nothing will change, nothing will change.
If LCS is any indication since they do exactly the same thing (everyone knows the Korean teams will win and are the best but they don't invite all Korean teams) it doesn't impact the viewership in a negative way at all
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote: I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
I'm sorry that you disagree with the WCS format but that doesn't make the format wrong
Blizzard's attempt to create a "local scene" for "the Americas" has failed miserably. these Korean players are not moving to Chicago, New York, Miami and Toronto in order to spread the gospel of SC2. well except for Polt.
but , i do not think Blizzard's WCS structure did any thing at all to really influence Polt.
To create a "local scene" we need national champions who then meet in an Olympic style format... a small positive example of this was Scarlett in WCS 2012.
2011 had 7 GSL Seasons. 2014 is down to 3. ticket sales and advertising revenue really can't support the WCS it really is relying more and more on Blizzard charity cash.
i wonder if next year's WCS will be a mix of HotS the MOBA and HotS the RTS
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote: I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
And I'm sure many Americans aren't really appealed by the thought of watching bad players (no offense, this region is known for its lack of good players, with the exception of a really small number).
So you can disagree, but the Ro8 and onward definitely look interesting to watch.
I wouldn't have even considered a full American Ro8, maybe the finals if there was a decent opponent against Scarlett.
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
On April 08 2014 23:03 lamprey1 wrote: Blizzard's attempt to create a "local scene" for "the Americas" has failed miserably. these Korean players are not moving to Chicago, New York, Miami and Toronto in order to spread the gospel of SC2. well except for Polt.
but , i do not think Blizzard's WCS structure did any thing at all to really influence Polt.
To create a "local scene" we need national champions who then meet in an Olympic style format... a small positive example of this was Scarlett in WCS 2012.
If it was as simple as you say, then why wouldn't Blizzard just do that? Because no one would watch an all american tournament. Not specifically because they are American, but because there simply aren't 32 good players. This season had 9 NA players. That's nice, and those players got some exposure, the best of them even got to the Ro16. But could you imagine filling the remaining 23 spots with even worse American players? Now, THAT would be a very dumb decision. Tbh keeping it as it is, would be a lot better for WCS than anything I've seen proposed in this thread.
On April 08 2014 23:03 lamprey1 wrote: Blizzard's attempt to create a "local scene" for "the Americas" has failed miserably. these Korean players are not moving to Chicago, New York, Miami and Toronto in order to spread the gospel of SC2. well except for Polt.
but , i do not think Blizzard's WCS structure did any thing at all to really influence Polt.
To create a "local scene" we need national champions who then meet in an Olympic style format... a small positive example of this was Scarlett in WCS 2012.
If it was as simple as you say, then why wouldn't Blizzard just do that? Because no one would watch an all american tournament. Not specifically because they are American, but because there simply aren't 32 good players. This season had 9 NA players. That's nice, and those players got some exposure, the best of them even got to the Ro16. But could you imagine filling the remaining 23 spots with even worse American players? Now, THAT would be a very dumb decision. Tbh keeping it as it is, would be a lot better for WCS than anything I've seen proposed in this thread.
"the Americas" is such a large geographical area its extremely difficult for any kind of high level tourney like this to impact at the grassroots level of all the different subcultures through out north and south america... ( and the other countries they've arbitrarily dumped into `the americas`)
The only reason I dislike the regional separation, is because horrible players like OZ and Revival are able to get to the quarter finals when they are mediocre ladder players at best.
I really don't get all the people being enraged by this situation. PC gaming is almost nonexistent in USA. Since PS 3/Xbox 360 gen, there isn't a market for professional PC gaming in the US. In reality the only game that was popular enough in America to support a professional scene was Counter strike. Since the "collapse" of CPL, PC gaming in the US is dead.
Americans were never truly "competitive" in any aspect of PC gaming. I think people here need to wake up. Console gaming is dominant in the US and that will never change. espite PC gaming being much ahead of the consoles in graphics/abilities, more and more Americans have switched to consoles for their gaming with every generation
Honestly, there shouldn't even be an event that is aimed towards US growth in PC market. It is a fool's errand, and if you are socially conscience enough you wouldn't be so out of your element Donny. * cough playa
On April 08 2014 23:55 SoFrOsTy wrote: The only reason I dislike the regional separation, is because horrible players like OZ and Revival are able to get to the quarter finals when they are mediocre ladder players at best.
Oz and Revival are mediocre ladder players? OO
The two people who took 1st and 2nd at IEM Shanghai not too long ago? You must have really high standards for what constitutes better than 'mediocre'.
As someone who only wants to see the best players play, I have to say that this tournament still isn't strong enough for me to tune in for GF; maybe there's something to that americans-only argument after all, or not, whatever.
On April 08 2014 23:55 SoFrOsTy wrote: The only reason I dislike the regional separation, is because horrible players like OZ and Revival are able to get to the quarter finals when they are mediocre ladder players at best.
Oz and Revival are mediocre ladder players? OO
The two people who took 1st and 2nd at IEM Shanghai not too long ago? You must have really high standards for what constitutes better than 'mediocre'.
By his definition, there were two foreigners who weren't mediocre laddeer players. And even those two are arguably worse than Oz and Revival.
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote: I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
1/8 then that actually live in the Americas? :/
You're right, fuck the Chinese and Oceanic players that don't have a region of their own!
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
1/8 then that actually live in the Americas? :/
You're right, fuck the Chinese and Oceanic players that don't have a region of their own!
Well, the remaining 7 players live in korea right? So I'm not sure what your point is :s
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
1/8 then that actually live in the Americas? :/
You're right, fuck the Chinese and Oceanic players that don't have a region of their own!
Well, the remaining 7 players live in korea right? So I'm not sure what your point is :s
gold's posts seemed to indicate that non-American players in WCS America is terrible by nature, I responded to that notion. I may have misinterpreted, in which case nevermind.
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
1/8 then that actually live in the Americas? :/
You're right, fuck the Chinese and Oceanic players that don't have a region of their own!
YEAH! Exactly! They took their jobs!
On a more serious note. Blizzard locked regions pretty hard I think. Now the conditions are fine(IMO) and all the "NA" players has to do is to win above all the Koreans. They are not able? Sad story, bro. Maybe time to get some advice from JD how to get better and train super hard. If Korean players are able to do this OUTSIDE of Korea, then foreigners should be able to do this as well... My POF
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
1/8 then that actually live in the Americas? :/
Noone would watch if WCS NA was actually NA only. Except Totalbiscuit
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Desrow 3-1'd Apocalypse in a convincing series that included a win on Daedalus (when everyone thought the map was impossible for Protoss); Has did an epic cannon rush to knock Jaedong to 4th in his group; Puck played amazing and was one bad decision away from being the first American in the ro8.
If you'd actually watch the games, then you'd realize WCS isn't as horrible as you originally thought. There's been plenty of "foreign hope" moments, but if all you do is look up results/wiki then that's on you for missing them.
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote: I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
While I do think that the NA region consistently complaining about this kind of tiresome (just work harder if you want to win), I also can see an issue with how WCS NA really is more of a Global Region than an actual North American scene tournament. Aside from the normal qualifier, they had FOUR different specialized qualifiers for players that North American players couldn't participate in. That is kind of bullshitty...
On April 08 2014 18:31 Froadac wrote: I wish there were more NA players, but it does to some degree fall onto them.
I do take issue with the fact we're still talking about regions, when in reality it might be the most fun to just combine all the WCS regions into one entirely global thing. It's so korean dominated that to call it WCS America is hardly genuine.
One of the main reasons I've 99% stopped watching pro starcraft is no westerners, no hype. I came back to watch shoutcraft, and apart form that have watched a couple streams rarely.
I"d much rather watch some random NA dota teams than a bunch of noname koreans in WCS america. I wish we could get some more americans to the top, but as the system is it seems unlikely they will get to the top. We're at a place where WCS America is really WCS Sponsored korean in hte Ro8+, and I don't see that changing. (for good reason). But trying to reconcile it being WCS 'america' with that fact is the sticking point for me.
If you look at the people who made the Ro8 this season and also at some of those who got eliminated and can say with a straight face and genuine seriousness that they're "a bunch of noname koreans" then perhaps we are better off without you watching.
rofl. Shoot, it was late. Not noname, so much as relatively flat personality wise. (for hte most part, I like polt etc)
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote: I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
1/8 then that actually live in the Americas? :/
Noone would watch if WCS NA was actually NA only. Except Totalbiscuit
I'd be an undefined amount more likely to watch it than I am at the moment
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote: I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for.
I just don't buy that explanation for declining viewership. If that was the case, we should hear about how WCS EU and WCS Korea viewership is either holding steady or even going up. Nothing I've read suggests that overall SC2 viewership is being pulled down by WCS NA's lack of home town heroes.
Viewership is declining because fewer and fewer people are playing the game. This game lacks the "fun factor" and just doesn't have much staying power with the masses. You could have a tournament full of NA based players, but that won't fix the problem that the game just isn't fun for most people.
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for.
I just don't buy that explanation for declining viewership. If that was the case, we should hear about how WCS EU and WCS Korea viewership is either holding steady or even going up. Nothing I've read suggests that overall SC2 viewership is being pulled down by WCS NA's lack of home town heroes.
Viewership is declining because fewer and fewer people are playing the game. This game lacks the "fun factor" and just doesn't have much staying power with the masses. You could have a tournament full of NA based players, but that won't fix the problem that the game just isn't fun for most people.
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote: I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
I wasn't talking about inviting popular NA players, i was talking about popular players period. People complain that without koreans there aren't enough viewers. By that logic, shouldn't they just invite the most popular players from all around the world (that didn't chose another "region") as that would raise numbers the most? Why even have regions when people only care about the best players worldwide? Just call it "WCS 25, live from Cologne" or whatever.
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for.
I just don't buy that explanation for declining viewership. If that was the case, we should hear about how WCS EU and WCS Korea viewership is either holding steady or even going up. Nothing I've read suggests that overall SC2 viewership is being pulled down by WCS NA's lack of home town heroes.
Viewership is declining because fewer and fewer people are playing the game. This game lacks the "fun factor" and just doesn't have much staying power with the masses. You could have a tournament full of NA based players, but that won't fix the problem that the game just isn't fun for most people.
The game has had a competitive scene for what, four years now, and you say it doesn't have staying power? I don't understand that logic..
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote: I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
WCS Europe is played out in Europe, WCS America is played out in America, WCS Korea is played out in Korea. Seems fairly clear-cut.
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
Reason #1: So that people in those regions have a tournament that they can watch live during a time of day that they are available to watch (i.e. not during middle of the night, or during the day when they are at work). Reason #2: So that people can attend those tournaments in person with a reasonable amount of travel.
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote: I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
I wasn't talking about inviting popular NA players, i was talking about popular players period. People complain that without koreans there aren't enough viewers. By that logic, shouldn't they just invite the most popular players from all around the world (that didn't chose another "region") as that would raise numbers the most? Why even have regions when people only care about the best players worldwide? Just call it "WCS 25, live from Cologne" or whatever.
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
You're implying that most popular players = best players. Why are players like Polt/Bomber are popular to begin with? Because of their SICK PLAY. To your question : Yes it it about players from that region. There're plenty of them in PL. They just didn't advance to Ro8.
TLDR: How many people complaining about WCS NA actually watched the tournament?
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote: I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
I wasn't talking about inviting popular NA players, i was talking about popular players period. People complain that without koreans there aren't enough viewers. By that logic, shouldn't they just invite the most popular players from all around the world (that didn't chose another "region") as that would raise numbers the most? Why even have regions when people only care about the best players worldwide? Just call it "WCS 25, live from Cologne" or whatever.
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
You're implying that most popular players = best players. Why are players like Polt/Bomber are popular to begin with? Because of their SICK PLAY. To your question : Yes it it about players from that region. There're plenty of them in PL. They just didn't advance to Ro8.
TLDR: How many people complaining about WCS NA actually watched the tournament?
None because it was dominated by Koreans of course.
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote: I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
WCS Europe is played out in Europe, WCS America is played out in America, WCS Korea is played out in Korea. Seems fairly clear-cut.
So they could instead name it WCS GSL Studios or WCS ESL studios. Sounds reasonable.
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote: I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
I wasn't talking about inviting popular NA players, i was talking about popular players period. People complain that without koreans there aren't enough viewers. By that logic, shouldn't they just invite the most popular players from all around the world (that didn't chose another "region") as that would raise numbers the most? Why even have regions when people only care about the best players worldwide? Just call it "WCS 25, live from Cologne" or whatever.
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
You're implying that most popular players = best players. Why are players like Polt/Bomber are popular to begin with? Because of their SICK PLAY. To your question : Yes it it about players from that region. There're plenty of them in PL. They just didn't advance to Ro8.
TLDR: How many people complaining about WCS NA actually watched the tournament?
No I'm not, I'm implying that the most popular players will get the most viewers. What is the purpose of WCS NA if a player that has nothing to do with NA plays in it? You could also call it WCS ballsack. No difference.
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote: I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
WCS Europe is played out in Europe, WCS America is played out in America, WCS Korea is played out in Korea. Seems fairly clear-cut.
So they could instead name it WCS GSL Studios or WCS ESL studios. Sounds reasonable.
Indeed. Doesn't have quite the same ring to it and it doesn't tell you as concisely where and when the tournament is played out, but yes.
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote: I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
I wasn't talking about inviting popular NA players, i was talking about popular players period. People complain that without koreans there aren't enough viewers. By that logic, shouldn't they just invite the most popular players from all around the world (that didn't chose another "region") as that would raise numbers the most? Why even have regions when people only care about the best players worldwide? Just call it "WCS 25, live from Cologne" or whatever.
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
You're implying that most popular players = best players. Why are players like Polt/Bomber are popular to begin with? Because of their SICK PLAY. To your question : Yes it it about players from that region. There're plenty of them in PL. They just didn't advance to Ro8.
TLDR: How many people complaining about WCS NA actually watched the tournament?
No I'm not, I'm implying that the most popular players will get the most viewers. What is the purpose of WCS NA if a player that has nothing to do with NA plays in it? You could also call it WCS ballsack. No difference.
I know America is probably the worst region out of the three in terms of local talent, but I'm pretty sure ballsacks tend to be worse.
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote: I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
I wasn't talking about inviting popular NA players, i was talking about popular players period. People complain that without koreans there aren't enough viewers. By that logic, shouldn't they just invite the most popular players from all around the world (that didn't chose another "region") as that would raise numbers the most? Why even have regions when people only care about the best players worldwide? Just call it "WCS 25, live from Cologne" or whatever.
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
You're implying that most popular players = best players. Why are players like Polt/Bomber are popular to begin with? Because of their SICK PLAY. To your question : Yes it it about players from that region. There're plenty of them in PL. They just didn't advance to Ro8.
TLDR: How many people complaining about WCS NA actually watched the tournament?
No I'm not, I'm implying that the most popular players will get the most viewers. What is the purpose of WCS NA if a player that has nothing to do with NA plays in it? You could also call it WCS ballsack. No difference.
I think a lot more people would watch a tournament called WCS Ballsack, at least initially.
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote: I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
I wasn't talking about inviting popular NA players, i was talking about popular players period. People complain that without koreans there aren't enough viewers. By that logic, shouldn't they just invite the most popular players from all around the world (that didn't chose another "region") as that would raise numbers the most? Why even have regions when people only care about the best players worldwide? Just call it "WCS 25, live from Cologne" or whatever.
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
You're implying that most popular players = best players. Why are players like Polt/Bomber are popular to begin with? Because of their SICK PLAY. To your question : Yes it it about players from that region. There're plenty of them in PL. They just didn't advance to Ro8.
TLDR: How many people complaining about WCS NA actually watched the tournament?
No I'm not, I'm implying that the most popular players will get the most viewers. What is the purpose of WCS NA if a player that has nothing to do with NA plays in it? You could also call it WCS ballsack. No difference.
It came down to WCS America and WCS Ballsack for Blizzard's marketing department, WCS America won by a very narrow margin.
But yes, the name is only a little more meaningful than the ostensibly Korean "Global" Starcraft League.
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote: I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
WCS Europe is played out in Europe, WCS America is played out in America, WCS Korea is played out in Korea. Seems fairly clear-cut.
So they could instead name it WCS GSL Studios or WCS ESL studios. Sounds reasonable.
Indeed. Doesn't have quite the same ring to it and it doesn't tell you as concisely where and when the tournament is played out, but yes.
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote: I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc. He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
I wasn't talking about inviting popular NA players, i was talking about popular players period. People complain that without koreans there aren't enough viewers. By that logic, shouldn't they just invite the most popular players from all around the world (that didn't chose another "region") as that would raise numbers the most? Why even have regions when people only care about the best players worldwide? Just call it "WCS 25, live from Cologne" or whatever.
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
You're implying that most popular players = best players. Why are players like Polt/Bomber are popular to begin with? Because of their SICK PLAY. To your question : Yes it it about players from that region. There're plenty of them in PL. They just didn't advance to Ro8.
TLDR: How many people complaining about WCS NA actually watched the tournament?
No I'm not, I'm implying that the most popular players will get the most viewers. What is the purpose of WCS NA if a player that has nothing to do with NA plays in it? You could also call it WCS ballsack. No difference.
I know America is probably the worst region out of the three in terms of local talent, but I'm pretty sure ballsacks tend to be worse.
So we agree that WCS EU & NA are pointless right now?
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
WCS Europe is played out in Europe, WCS America is played out in America, WCS Korea is played out in Korea. Seems fairly clear-cut.
So they could instead name it WCS GSL Studios or WCS ESL studios. Sounds reasonable.
Indeed. Doesn't have quite the same ring to it and it doesn't tell you as concisely where and when the tournament is played out, but yes.
On April 09 2014 04:38 Broodwurst wrote:
On April 09 2014 04:22 imrusty269 wrote:
On April 09 2014 03:37 Broodwurst wrote:
On April 09 2014 02:47 mvdunecats wrote:
On April 09 2014 02:35 Broodwurst wrote:
On April 09 2014 01:52 mvdunecats wrote:
On April 09 2014 01:08 Broodwurst wrote:
On April 08 2014 23:17 Ragnarork wrote: [quote]
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
I wasn't talking about inviting popular NA players, i was talking about popular players period. People complain that without koreans there aren't enough viewers. By that logic, shouldn't they just invite the most popular players from all around the world (that didn't chose another "region") as that would raise numbers the most? Why even have regions when people only care about the best players worldwide? Just call it "WCS 25, live from Cologne" or whatever.
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
You're implying that most popular players = best players. Why are players like Polt/Bomber are popular to begin with? Because of their SICK PLAY. To your question : Yes it it about players from that region. There're plenty of them in PL. They just didn't advance to Ro8.
TLDR: How many people complaining about WCS NA actually watched the tournament?
No I'm not, I'm implying that the most popular players will get the most viewers. What is the purpose of WCS NA if a player that has nothing to do with NA plays in it? You could also call it WCS ballsack. No difference.
I know America is probably the worst region out of the three in terms of local talent, but I'm pretty sure ballsacks tend to be worse.
So we agree that WCS EU & NA are pointless right now?
How do you go from "WCS AM is not all about homegrown talent" to "WCS AM is useless" without recognizing what a huge leap that is?
WCS AM/EU accomplish everything they're supposed to - they provide battlegrounds for local players, genuine opportunities for local players who are worthy (Scarlett, Nani, Vortix), and they allow local players to watch high profile, high skill SC2 matches live. That's it, mission already accomplished! Not very ambitious, but not everything in the world has to be. They're even fantastic for giving casters much needed practice, exposure, and a day job. Not everybody wants to move to Korea.
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
WCS Europe is played out in Europe, WCS America is played out in America, WCS Korea is played out in Korea. Seems fairly clear-cut.
So they could instead name it WCS GSL Studios or WCS ESL studios. Sounds reasonable.
Indeed. Doesn't have quite the same ring to it and it doesn't tell you as concisely where and when the tournament is played out, but yes.
On April 09 2014 04:38 Broodwurst wrote:
On April 09 2014 04:22 imrusty269 wrote:
On April 09 2014 03:37 Broodwurst wrote:
On April 09 2014 02:47 mvdunecats wrote:
On April 09 2014 02:35 Broodwurst wrote:
On April 09 2014 01:52 mvdunecats wrote:
On April 09 2014 01:08 Broodwurst wrote:
On April 08 2014 23:17 Ragnarork wrote: [quote]
Well he's made the Ro8 of WCS AM something people outside of America will actually watch :/
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
I wasn't talking about inviting popular NA players, i was talking about popular players period. People complain that without koreans there aren't enough viewers. By that logic, shouldn't they just invite the most popular players from all around the world (that didn't chose another "region") as that would raise numbers the most? Why even have regions when people only care about the best players worldwide? Just call it "WCS 25, live from Cologne" or whatever.
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
You're implying that most popular players = best players. Why are players like Polt/Bomber are popular to begin with? Because of their SICK PLAY. To your question : Yes it it about players from that region. There're plenty of them in PL. They just didn't advance to Ro8.
TLDR: How many people complaining about WCS NA actually watched the tournament?
No I'm not, I'm implying that the most popular players will get the most viewers. What is the purpose of WCS NA if a player that has nothing to do with NA plays in it? You could also call it WCS ballsack. No difference.
I know America is probably the worst region out of the three in terms of local talent, but I'm pretty sure ballsacks tend to be worse.
So we agree that WCS EU & NA are pointless right now?
They aren't.
The WCS Korea champion only won I think 1 out of 3 seasonal finals last year. Dear in Season 3.
The 3 regions are doing exactly what they are meant to do. They are increasing the player pool that we're able to see play at the top level. The seasonal finals and Blizzcon all did a ton to justify the way the format is set up right now, all of them were absolutely great tournaments.
That's the whole point. The format is set up so that it builds up into the best tournament possible. It's been successful in that regard.
Where's the local talent then you might ask. Stuck in Challenger league. The only reason we're not seeing more local talent is because they aren't good enough to make it out of challenger league or past the Koreans that are in premiere. It isn't the format that is crippling them it's simply the disparity in skill level.
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
1/8 then that actually live in the Americas? :/
Noone would watch if WCS NA was actually NA only. Except Totalbiscuit
I'd be an undefined amount more likely to watch it than I am at the moment
I would watch an all WCS AM tournament. This is at least the second time someone in this thread comes with this weird idea that no one would watch an all AM tournament (although boxerfred confused NA with AM). I wonder why people is trying to tell me that I wouldn't watch something that I would watch. And yes, I'm not going to watch the WCS AM Bo8 season 1, because honestly I don't care who wins it.
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
WCS Europe is played out in Europe, WCS America is played out in America, WCS Korea is played out in Korea. Seems fairly clear-cut.
So they could instead name it WCS GSL Studios or WCS ESL studios. Sounds reasonable.
Indeed. Doesn't have quite the same ring to it and it doesn't tell you as concisely where and when the tournament is played out, but yes.
On April 09 2014 04:38 Broodwurst wrote:
On April 09 2014 04:22 imrusty269 wrote:
On April 09 2014 03:37 Broodwurst wrote:
On April 09 2014 02:47 mvdunecats wrote:
On April 09 2014 02:35 Broodwurst wrote:
On April 09 2014 01:52 mvdunecats wrote:
On April 09 2014 01:08 Broodwurst wrote: [quote]
He should invite the most popular players, imagine how many people would watch that.
What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
I wasn't talking about inviting popular NA players, i was talking about popular players period. People complain that without koreans there aren't enough viewers. By that logic, shouldn't they just invite the most popular players from all around the world (that didn't chose another "region") as that would raise numbers the most? Why even have regions when people only care about the best players worldwide? Just call it "WCS 25, live from Cologne" or whatever.
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
You're implying that most popular players = best players. Why are players like Polt/Bomber are popular to begin with? Because of their SICK PLAY. To your question : Yes it it about players from that region. There're plenty of them in PL. They just didn't advance to Ro8.
TLDR: How many people complaining about WCS NA actually watched the tournament?
No I'm not, I'm implying that the most popular players will get the most viewers. What is the purpose of WCS NA if a player that has nothing to do with NA plays in it? You could also call it WCS ballsack. No difference.
I know America is probably the worst region out of the three in terms of local talent, but I'm pretty sure ballsacks tend to be worse.
So we agree that WCS EU & NA are pointless right now?
How do you go from "WCS AM is not all about homegrown talent" to "WCS AM is useless" without recognizing what a huge leap that is?
WCS AM/EU accomplish everything they're supposed to - they provide battlegrounds for local players, genuine opportunities for local players who are worthy (Scarlett, Nani, Vortix), and they allow local players to watch high profile, high skill SC2 matches live. That's it, mission already accomplished! Not very ambitious, but not everything in the world has to be. They're even fantastic for giving casters much needed practice, exposure, and a day job. Not everybody wants to move to Korea.
It's useless because you could call it anything and still have the same tournament, with the same players and the same results. There's no point in WCS NA because being from NA has very little to do with the tournament. Same for EU. Call it WCS 1 & 2. There, done. There's no fucking difference, "NA" and "EU" are just pointless additions to names that don't mean shit. You could call it WCS REDDIT and it wouldn't mean shit because you don't have to be on reddit. It's not that the games are pointless, it's just that the environment doesn't mean fuck all.
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
1/8 then that actually live in the Americas? :/
Noone would watch if WCS NA was actually NA only. Except Totalbiscuit
I'd be an undefined amount more likely to watch it than I am at the moment
I would watch an all WCS AM tournament. This is at least the second time someone in this thread comes with this weird idea that no one would watch an all AM tournament (although boxerfred confused NA with AM). I wonder why people is trying to tell me that I wouldn't watch something that I would watch. And yes, I'm not going to watch the WCS AM Bo8 season 1, because honestly I don't care who wins it.
If you're not interested in Taeja/Bomber/Polt, then you're not going to be very interested in world finals regardless of what WCS AM looks like (because even if only American talent gets through, they all get stomped in the first round and you tune out after that). Do you understand what that means? Blizzard has nothing at all to gain by appealing to you. Unless you think that changing WCS AM will magically make local players able to compete on a global level within 1-2 seasons (and it won't), they'll be sabotaging world finals AND they won't gain you as a viewer for the most important event anyway!
On April 09 2014 01:52 mvdunecats wrote: [quote] What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
WCS Europe is played out in Europe, WCS America is played out in America, WCS Korea is played out in Korea. Seems fairly clear-cut.
So they could instead name it WCS GSL Studios or WCS ESL studios. Sounds reasonable.
Indeed. Doesn't have quite the same ring to it and it doesn't tell you as concisely where and when the tournament is played out, but yes.
On April 09 2014 04:38 Broodwurst wrote:
On April 09 2014 04:22 imrusty269 wrote:
On April 09 2014 03:37 Broodwurst wrote:
On April 09 2014 02:47 mvdunecats wrote:
On April 09 2014 02:35 Broodwurst wrote:
On April 09 2014 01:52 mvdunecats wrote: [quote] What kind of viewership numbers did the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament draw?
no idea, why?
Because that's essentially what they did with that tournament. They invited a bunch of established names in the NA scene for most of the participants. If inviting popular NA players is guaranteed to bring in better viewership than a Korean dominated WCS NA, then surely the Enders Game on Blu-ray tournament would proven that. Right?
I wasn't talking about inviting popular NA players, i was talking about popular players period. People complain that without koreans there aren't enough viewers. By that logic, shouldn't they just invite the most popular players from all around the world (that didn't chose another "region") as that would raise numbers the most? Why even have regions when people only care about the best players worldwide? Just call it "WCS 25, live from Cologne" or whatever.
TLDR: Name one reason why we need WCS NA/EU if it's not about players from that region.
You're implying that most popular players = best players. Why are players like Polt/Bomber are popular to begin with? Because of their SICK PLAY. To your question : Yes it it about players from that region. There're plenty of them in PL. They just didn't advance to Ro8.
TLDR: How many people complaining about WCS NA actually watched the tournament?
No I'm not, I'm implying that the most popular players will get the most viewers. What is the purpose of WCS NA if a player that has nothing to do with NA plays in it? You could also call it WCS ballsack. No difference.
I know America is probably the worst region out of the three in terms of local talent, but I'm pretty sure ballsacks tend to be worse.
So we agree that WCS EU & NA are pointless right now?
How do you go from "WCS AM is not all about homegrown talent" to "WCS AM is useless" without recognizing what a huge leap that is?
WCS AM/EU accomplish everything they're supposed to - they provide battlegrounds for local players, genuine opportunities for local players who are worthy (Scarlett, Nani, Vortix), and they allow local players to watch high profile, high skill SC2 matches live. That's it, mission already accomplished! Not very ambitious, but not everything in the world has to be. They're even fantastic for giving casters much needed practice, exposure, and a day job. Not everybody wants to move to Korea.
It's useless because you could call it anything and still have the same tournament, with the same players and the same results. There's no point in WCS NA because being from NA has very little to do with the tournament. Same for EU. Call it WCS 1 & 2. There, done. There's no fucking difference, "NA" and "EU" are just pointless additions to names that don't mean shit. You could call it WCS REDDIT and it wouldn't mean shit because you don't have to be on reddit. It's not that the games are pointless, it's just that the environment doesn't mean fuck all.
OK, change of tactics.
Yes. It is every bit as stupid as you think it is. Feel free to petition Blizzard to get the name changed.
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
1/8 then that actually live in the Americas? :/
Noone would watch if WCS NA was actually NA only. Except Totalbiscuit
I'd be an undefined amount more likely to watch it than I am at the moment
I would watch an all WCS AM tournament. This is at least the second time someone in this thread comes with this weird idea that no one would watch an all AM tournament (although boxerfred confused NA with AM). I wonder why people is trying to tell me that I wouldn't watch something that I would watch. And yes, I'm not going to watch the WCS AM Bo8 season 1, because honestly I don't care who wins it.
If you're not interested in Taeja/Bomber/Polt, then you're not going to be very interested in world finals regardless of what WCS AM looks like (because even if only American talent gets through, they all get stomped in the first round and you tune out after that). Do you understand what that means? Blizzard has nothing at all to gain by appealing to you. Unless you think that changing WCS AM will magically make local players able to compete on a global level within 1-2 seasons (and it won't), they'll be sabotaging world finals AND they won't gain you as a viewer for the most important event anyway!
No, you miss the point. Blizzard has everything to gain by appealing to me. You will watch Bomber if he plays in Korea or AM. I will not. You will always watch, my watching comes with a condition.
World finals will always be there for you my friend, no need to worry about it so much.
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
1/8 then that actually live in the Americas? :/
Noone would watch if WCS NA was actually NA only. Except Totalbiscuit
I'd be an undefined amount more likely to watch it than I am at the moment
I would watch an all WCS AM tournament. This is at least the second time someone in this thread comes with this weird idea that no one would watch an all AM tournament (although boxerfred confused NA with AM). I wonder why people is trying to tell me that I wouldn't watch something that I would watch. And yes, I'm not going to watch the WCS AM Bo8 season 1, because honestly I don't care who wins it.
If you're not interested in Taeja/Bomber/Polt, then you're not going to be very interested in world finals regardless of what WCS AM looks like (because even if only American talent gets through, they all get stomped in the first round and you tune out after that). Do you understand what that means? Blizzard has nothing at all to gain by appealing to you. Unless you think that changing WCS AM will magically make local players able to compete on a global level within 1-2 seasons (and it won't), they'll be sabotaging world finals AND they won't gain you as a viewer for the most important event anyway!
No, you miss the point. Blizzard has everything to gain by appealing to me. You will watch Bomber if he plays in Korea or AM. I will not. You will always watch, my watching comes with a condition.
World finals will always be there for you my friend, no need to worry about it so much.
But I won't watch AM without Bomber. See how that works? They lose you but gain me by changing absolutely nothing and doing absolutely no extra work on top of what they've already done. Not only that, but I won't watch world finals matches that are expected curbstomps, either. Soulkey vs. desrow? I'm out. Now just imagine two foreigners end up facing each other, guaranteeing one to go through, while Soulkey is off playing Maru. Then one of the foreigners will place higher than SK/Maru and get more cash. Do you think I can take world finals seriously at that point?
And I dare to imagine Blizzard cares more about Blizzcon viewer numbers than they do run of the mill WCS AM numbers.
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
1/8 then that actually live in the Americas? :/
Noone would watch if WCS NA was actually NA only. Except Totalbiscuit
I'd be an undefined amount more likely to watch it than I am at the moment
I would watch an all WCS AM tournament. This is at least the second time someone in this thread comes with this weird idea that no one would watch an all AM tournament (although boxerfred confused NA with AM). I wonder why people is trying to tell me that I wouldn't watch something that I would watch. And yes, I'm not going to watch the WCS AM Bo8 season 1, because honestly I don't care who wins it.
If you're not interested in Taeja/Bomber/Polt, then you're not going to be very interested in world finals regardless of what WCS AM looks like (because even if only American talent gets through, they all get stomped in the first round and you tune out after that). Do you understand what that means? Blizzard has nothing at all to gain by appealing to you. Unless you think that changing WCS AM will magically make local players able to compete on a global level within 1-2 seasons (and it won't), they'll be sabotaging world finals AND they won't gain you as a viewer for the most important event anyway!
No, you miss the point. Blizzard has everything to gain by appealing to me. You will watch Bomber if he plays in Korea or AM. I will not. You will always watch, my watching comes with a condition.
World finals will always be there for you my friend, no need to worry about it so much.
No I'm going to take a different approach.
If you're the kind of fan that says he is a fan but checks out the moment the white guys are eliminated then no, Blizzard DOESN'T gain anything by appealing to you.
Anything of value anyway.
There are fans and then there are quality fans. Appealing to fans by showcasing the quality of the game has a far longer term appeal than appealing to fans because hey this guy that's playing is someone you can relate to.
Remember that Blizzard's ultimate motivation is to give exposure to their game. If your whole argument is that you care more about who is playing the game than the game itself, then you aren't the kind of fan that Blizzard has any real use for in the first place.
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
1/8 then that actually live in the Americas? :/
Noone would watch if WCS NA was actually NA only. Except Totalbiscuit
I'd be an undefined amount more likely to watch it than I am at the moment
I would watch an all WCS AM tournament. This is at least the second time someone in this thread comes with this weird idea that no one would watch an all AM tournament (although boxerfred confused NA with AM). I wonder why people is trying to tell me that I wouldn't watch something that I would watch. And yes, I'm not going to watch the WCS AM Bo8 season 1, because honestly I don't care who wins it.
If you're not interested in Taeja/Bomber/Polt, then you're not going to be very interested in world finals regardless of what WCS AM looks like (because even if only American talent gets through, they all get stomped in the first round and you tune out after that). Do you understand what that means? Blizzard has nothing at all to gain by appealing to you. Unless you think that changing WCS AM will magically make local players able to compete on a global level within 1-2 seasons (and it won't), they'll be sabotaging world finals AND they won't gain you as a viewer for the most important event anyway!
No, you miss the point. Blizzard has everything to gain by appealing to me. You will watch Bomber if he plays in Korea or AM. I will not. You will always watch, my watching comes with a condition.
World finals will always be there for you my friend, no need to worry about it so much.
But I won't watch AM without Bomber. See how that works? They lose you but gain me by changing absolutely nothing and doing absolutely no extra work on top of what they've already done. Not only that, but I won't watch world finals matches that are expected curbstomps, either. Soulkey vs. desrow? I'm out. I probably wouldn't even watch Soulkey vs. Vortix.
And I dare to imagine Blizzard cares more about Blizzcon viewer numbers than they do run of the mill WCS AM numbers.
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
1/8 then that actually live in the Americas? :/
Noone would watch if WCS NA was actually NA only. Except Totalbiscuit
I'd be an undefined amount more likely to watch it than I am at the moment
I would watch an all WCS AM tournament. This is at least the second time someone in this thread comes with this weird idea that no one would watch an all AM tournament (although boxerfred confused NA with AM). I wonder why people is trying to tell me that I wouldn't watch something that I would watch. And yes, I'm not going to watch the WCS AM Bo8 season 1, because honestly I don't care who wins it.
If you're not interested in Taeja/Bomber/Polt, then you're not going to be very interested in world finals regardless of what WCS AM looks like (because even if only American talent gets through, they all get stomped in the first round and you tune out after that). Do you understand what that means? Blizzard has nothing at all to gain by appealing to you. Unless you think that changing WCS AM will magically make local players able to compete on a global level within 1-2 seasons (and it won't), they'll be sabotaging world finals AND they won't gain you as a viewer for the most important event anyway!
No, you miss the point. Blizzard has everything to gain by appealing to me. You will watch Bomber if he plays in Korea or AM. I will not. You will always watch, my watching comes with a condition.
World finals will always be there for you my friend, no need to worry about it so much.
Except organizers have appealed to your demographic in the past and they've gotten abysmal viewership. Again, your demographic doesn't turn up come tournament days.
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
1/8 then that actually live in the Americas? :/
Noone would watch if WCS NA was actually NA only. Except Totalbiscuit
I'd be an undefined amount more likely to watch it than I am at the moment
I would watch an all WCS AM tournament. This is at least the second time someone in this thread comes with this weird idea that no one would watch an all AM tournament (although boxerfred confused NA with AM). I wonder why people is trying to tell me that I wouldn't watch something that I would watch. And yes, I'm not going to watch the WCS AM Bo8 season 1, because honestly I don't care who wins it.
If you're not interested in Taeja/Bomber/Polt, then you're not going to be very interested in world finals regardless of what WCS AM looks like (because even if only American talent gets through, they all get stomped in the first round and you tune out after that). Do you understand what that means? Blizzard has nothing at all to gain by appealing to you. Unless you think that changing WCS AM will magically make local players able to compete on a global level within 1-2 seasons (and it won't), they'll be sabotaging world finals AND they won't gain you as a viewer for the most important event anyway!
No, you miss the point. Blizzard has everything to gain by appealing to me. You will watch Bomber if he plays in Korea or AM. I will not. You will always watch, my watching comes with a condition.
World finals will always be there for you my friend, no need to worry about it so much.
But I won't watch AM without Bomber. See how that works? They lose you but gain me by changing absolutely nothing and doing absolutely no extra work on top of what they've already done. Not only that, but I won't watch world finals matches that are expected curbstomps, either. Soulkey vs. desrow? I'm out. I probably wouldn't even watch Soulkey vs. Vortix.
And I dare to imagine Blizzard cares more about Blizzcon viewer numbers than they do run of the mill WCS AM numbers.
But would you watch WCS KR without Bomber?
What is your fascination with Bomber? I watch everything that comes out of Korea, and now I'll be tuning in to WCS AM because it's got amazing Korean talent in it.
I for one enjoy good games, if that means that my region will get overrun with Koreans looking to make it to the world finals, so be it. If they are the same Koreans who didn't make it in their own regions, then as long as they can beat the players from mine, I don't see why they shouldn't be given a spot. If native AMs want to make it to the world finals, then perhaps they should start training like it.
@Banerider: Do you realize that you are basically saying that someone native to the NA region deserves to go to college more than an asian kid, whose family came to U.S to make something of themselves, and busts his ass to get good scores on exams? Your logic is flawed as fuck, I'm sorry. If one DESERVES something, then one should get it; race, creed, color, or anything else does NOT FUCKING MATTER.
Like pure.Wasted mentioned - I wouldn't watch a desrow vs soulkey finals... it would be a royal stomp. I'd rather watch someone CAPABALE of making it to the finals, I don't care if they are korean or not.
I can quote over 10 interviews where Koreans talk about how lax it is to play SC2 in Europe and NA. Innovation and Dear come to mind, as they were pretty vocal about how fucking lazy progamers outside of korea are.
TLDR: If you want foreigners in the finals, then tell those foreigners to put in some work.
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
1/8 then that actually live in the Americas? :/
Noone would watch if WCS NA was actually NA only. Except Totalbiscuit
I'd be an undefined amount more likely to watch it than I am at the moment
I would watch an all WCS AM tournament. This is at least the second time someone in this thread comes with this weird idea that no one would watch an all AM tournament (although boxerfred confused NA with AM). I wonder why people is trying to tell me that I wouldn't watch something that I would watch. And yes, I'm not going to watch the WCS AM Bo8 season 1, because honestly I don't care who wins it.
If you're not interested in Taeja/Bomber/Polt, then you're not going to be very interested in world finals regardless of what WCS AM looks like (because even if only American talent gets through, they all get stomped in the first round and you tune out after that). Do you understand what that means? Blizzard has nothing at all to gain by appealing to you. Unless you think that changing WCS AM will magically make local players able to compete on a global level within 1-2 seasons (and it won't), they'll be sabotaging world finals AND they won't gain you as a viewer for the most important event anyway!
No, you miss the point. Blizzard has everything to gain by appealing to me. You will watch Bomber if he plays in Korea or AM. I will not. You will always watch, my watching comes with a condition.
World finals will always be there for you my friend, no need to worry about it so much.
Except organizers have appealed to your demographic in the past and they've gotten abysmal viewership. Again, your demographic doesn't turn up come tournament days.
Indeed.
I really don't understand why people are so vehement to argue against this when it's a clear cut fact. And they claim that the majority are the ones who would rather root for the "hometown hero" (BUZZWORDS!!! to make it seem remotely true) rather than the best players. That's objectively false, I'm sorry.
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
1/8 then that actually live in the Americas? :/
Noone would watch if WCS NA was actually NA only. Except Totalbiscuit
I'd be an undefined amount more likely to watch it than I am at the moment
I would watch an all WCS AM tournament. This is at least the second time someone in this thread comes with this weird idea that no one would watch an all AM tournament (although boxerfred confused NA with AM). I wonder why people is trying to tell me that I wouldn't watch something that I would watch. And yes, I'm not going to watch the WCS AM Bo8 season 1, because honestly I don't care who wins it.
If you're not interested in Taeja/Bomber/Polt, then you're not going to be very interested in world finals regardless of what WCS AM looks like (because even if only American talent gets through, they all get stomped in the first round and you tune out after that). Do you understand what that means? Blizzard has nothing at all to gain by appealing to you. Unless you think that changing WCS AM will magically make local players able to compete on a global level within 1-2 seasons (and it won't), they'll be sabotaging world finals AND they won't gain you as a viewer for the most important event anyway!
No, you miss the point. Blizzard has everything to gain by appealing to me. You will watch Bomber if he plays in Korea or AM. I will not. You will always watch, my watching comes with a condition.
World finals will always be there for you my friend, no need to worry about it so much.
No I'm going to take a different approach.
If you're the kind of fan that says he is a fan but checks out the moment the white guys are eliminated then no, Blizzard DOESN'T gain anything by appealing to you.
Anything of value anyway.
There are fans and then there are quality fans. Appealing to fans by showcasing the quality of the game has a far longer term appeal than appealing to fans because hey this guy that's playing is someone you can relate to.
Remember that Blizzard's ultimate motivation is to give exposure to their game. If your whole argument is that you care more about who is playing the game than the game itself, then you aren't the kind of fans that Blizzard has any real use for in the first place.
I dare say blizzard has good use of all the fans. Your argument about low value and high value fans is probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever read here this forum!!
Yes I agree with your second point about Blizzards motivation though, Blizzard wants as many fans to their game as they can get (which obviously contradicts your first point). America (all of it) has 900 million potential fans. Korea has 50 million potential fans. Which market do you think is the most valuable to invest in? Wanna conquer the American (all of it) with Bomber, Taeja, Oz and another handful of Koreans? Good luck.
If I want to watch the best Koreans play I can watch WCS KR. If I want to watch the best Europeans play, well there are three in the WCS EU still. I'm very exited about that, but should none of the Europeans make it to the final, then I'm not at all bothered if Stardust or Jjakji or MC wins. For me that doesn't really matter. At least I had fun watching the event all the way from the qualifiers, through the challenger (which was a bit shabby this year, I don't like this format) to the PL. So I'm the kind of fan Blizzard doesn't gain anything from catering to? Yeah right. Gosh.
Oh, and by the way, I need to ask a "quality fan" like yourself, what should I watch if I want to see the best Americans play? I bet quality fans know everything about every scene, don't they? Or are quality fans only experts on the very best starcraft has to offer?
Noone would watch if WCS NA was actually NA only. Except Totalbiscuit
I'd be an undefined amount more likely to watch it than I am at the moment
I would watch an all WCS AM tournament. This is at least the second time someone in this thread comes with this weird idea that no one would watch an all AM tournament (although boxerfred confused NA with AM). I wonder why people is trying to tell me that I wouldn't watch something that I would watch. And yes, I'm not going to watch the WCS AM Bo8 season 1, because honestly I don't care who wins it.
If you're not interested in Taeja/Bomber/Polt, then you're not going to be very interested in world finals regardless of what WCS AM looks like (because even if only American talent gets through, they all get stomped in the first round and you tune out after that). Do you understand what that means? Blizzard has nothing at all to gain by appealing to you. Unless you think that changing WCS AM will magically make local players able to compete on a global level within 1-2 seasons (and it won't), they'll be sabotaging world finals AND they won't gain you as a viewer for the most important event anyway!
No, you miss the point. Blizzard has everything to gain by appealing to me. You will watch Bomber if he plays in Korea or AM. I will not. You will always watch, my watching comes with a condition.
World finals will always be there for you my friend, no need to worry about it so much.
But I won't watch AM without Bomber. See how that works? They lose you but gain me by changing absolutely nothing and doing absolutely no extra work on top of what they've already done. Not only that, but I won't watch world finals matches that are expected curbstomps, either. Soulkey vs. desrow? I'm out. I probably wouldn't even watch Soulkey vs. Vortix.
And I dare to imagine Blizzard cares more about Blizzcon viewer numbers than they do run of the mill WCS AM numbers.
But would you watch WCS KR without Bomber?
What is your fascination with Bomber? I watch everything that comes out of Korea, and now I'll be tuning in to WCS AM because it's got amazing Korean talent in it.
Yeah, that is what I thought. You are doubly happy because you get to see good koreans in two tournaments instead of one. Glad for you, enjoy the show!
@Banerider: Do you realize that you are basically saying that someone native to the NA region deserves to go to college more than an asian kid, whose family came to U.S to make something of themselves, and busts his ass to get good scores on exams? Your logic is flawed as fuck, I'm sorry. If one DESERVES something, then one should get it; race, creed, color, or anything else does NOT FUCKING MATTER.
Dude, I want a chance to see WCS AM with, you know Americans, because that would be fun to watch. You can have your world finals with all Koreans, I'm totally fine with that.
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
1/8 then that actually live in the Americas? :/
Noone would watch if WCS NA was actually NA only. Except Totalbiscuit
I'd be an undefined amount more likely to watch it than I am at the moment
I would watch an all WCS AM tournament. This is at least the second time someone in this thread comes with this weird idea that no one would watch an all AM tournament (although boxerfred confused NA with AM). I wonder why people is trying to tell me that I wouldn't watch something that I would watch. And yes, I'm not going to watch the WCS AM Bo8 season 1, because honestly I don't care who wins it.
If you're not interested in Taeja/Bomber/Polt, then you're not going to be very interested in world finals regardless of what WCS AM looks like (because even if only American talent gets through, they all get stomped in the first round and you tune out after that). Do you understand what that means? Blizzard has nothing at all to gain by appealing to you. Unless you think that changing WCS AM will magically make local players able to compete on a global level within 1-2 seasons (and it won't), they'll be sabotaging world finals AND they won't gain you as a viewer for the most important event anyway!
No, you miss the point. Blizzard has everything to gain by appealing to me. You will watch Bomber if he plays in Korea or AM. I will not. You will always watch, my watching comes with a condition.
World finals will always be there for you my friend, no need to worry about it so much.
No I'm going to take a different approach.
If you're the kind of fan that says he is a fan but checks out the moment the white guys are eliminated then no, Blizzard DOESN'T gain anything by appealing to you.
Anything of value anyway.
There are fans and then there are quality fans. Appealing to fans by showcasing the quality of the game has a far longer term appeal than appealing to fans because hey this guy that's playing is someone you can relate to.
Remember that Blizzard's ultimate motivation is to give exposure to their game. If your whole argument is that you care more about who is playing the game than the game itself, then you aren't the kind of fans that Blizzard has any real use for in the first place.
Yes I agree with your second point about Blizzards motivation though, Blizzard wants as many fans to their game as they can get (which obviously contradicts your first point). America (all of it) has 900 million potential fans. Korea has 50 million potential fans. Which market do you think is the most valuable to invest in? Wanna conquer the American (all of it) with Bomber, Taeja, Oz and another handful of Koreans? Good luck.
Mistake #1: thinking Blizzard can conquer America. Not gonna happen. If SC2 is slowly dying in pro-PC, pro-discipline Korean culture, there's absolutely zero chance it's going to start growing in America. You're deluding yourself if you think it's possible.
To make this conceivable, Blizzard would have to make SC2 ladder F2P and add in a LOOOOOOOT of rewards to give players an incentive to play... and play... and play. And even that's hardly guaranteed to work.
On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote: Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
1/8 then that actually live in the Americas? :/
Noone would watch if WCS NA was actually NA only. Except Totalbiscuit
I'd be an undefined amount more likely to watch it than I am at the moment
I would watch an all WCS AM tournament. This is at least the second time someone in this thread comes with this weird idea that no one would watch an all AM tournament (although boxerfred confused NA with AM). I wonder why people is trying to tell me that I wouldn't watch something that I would watch. And yes, I'm not going to watch the WCS AM Bo8 season 1, because honestly I don't care who wins it.
If you're not interested in Taeja/Bomber/Polt, then you're not going to be very interested in world finals regardless of what WCS AM looks like (because even if only American talent gets through, they all get stomped in the first round and you tune out after that). Do you understand what that means? Blizzard has nothing at all to gain by appealing to you. Unless you think that changing WCS AM will magically make local players able to compete on a global level within 1-2 seasons (and it won't), they'll be sabotaging world finals AND they won't gain you as a viewer for the most important event anyway!
No, you miss the point. Blizzard has everything to gain by appealing to me. You will watch Bomber if he plays in Korea or AM. I will not. You will always watch, my watching comes with a condition.
World finals will always be there for you my friend, no need to worry about it so much.
No I'm going to take a different approach.
If you're the kind of fan that says he is a fan but checks out the moment the white guys are eliminated then no, Blizzard DOESN'T gain anything by appealing to you.
Anything of value anyway.
There are fans and then there are quality fans. Appealing to fans by showcasing the quality of the game has a far longer term appeal than appealing to fans because hey this guy that's playing is someone you can relate to.
Remember that Blizzard's ultimate motivation is to give exposure to their game. If your whole argument is that you care more about who is playing the game than the game itself, then you aren't the kind of fans that Blizzard has any real use for in the first place.
I dare say blizzard has good use of all the fans. Your argument about low value and high value fans is probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever read here this forum!!
Yes I agree with your second point about Blizzards motivation though, Blizzard wants as many fans to their game as they can get (which obviously contradicts your first point). America (all of it) has 900 million potential fans. Korea has 50 million potential fans. Which market do you think is the most valuable to invest in? Wanna conquer the American (all of it) with Bomber, Taeja, Oz and another handful of Koreans? Good luck.
If I want to watch the best Koreans play I can watch WCS KR. If I want to watch the best Europeans play, well there are three in the WCS EU still. I'm very exited about that, but should none of the Europeans make it to the final, then I'm not at all bothered if Stardust or Jjakji or MC wins. For me that doesn't really matter. At least I had fun watching the event all the way from the qualifiers, through the challenger (which was a bit shabby this year, I don't like this format) to the PL. So I'm the kind of fan Blizzard doesn't gain anything from catering to? Yeah right. Gosh.
Oh, and by the way, I need to ask a "quality fan" like yourself, what should I watch if I want to see the best Americans play? I bet quality fans know everything about every scene, don't they? Or are quality fans only experts on the very best starcraft has to offer?
I already issued my challenge pages ago.
If you claim to actually care about NA competition then watch MLG Anaheim that's coming up in 2 months.
The problem is with your "theory" is that every NA only tournament in the past two years has had terrible ratings compared to tournaments featuring Koreans or European only tournaments. NA "only" fans don't actually put their time or their money where their mouths are. That's the REAL problem here.
If NA fans actually gave an actual shit about the stuff they said they cared about then it would be possible to actually have a sustainable NA only regional scene. The reason we can't have one is because no one actually cares about it, they just like to bitch and complain about how bad NA players are compared to the competition and wish someone would do something about it.
I've done my time in the trenches. I spent 8-10 months over a 2 year period casting semi-professional Grandmaster level team leagues hosted by two different North American teams both of which are no longer around. First it was the ISTL, then it was the URTL. We struggled to maintain 300 viewers on a GOOD day, despite being featured on TeamLiquid and doing plenty of marketing on Reddit and Twitter. Deimos Teamleague is trying to do the same thing now as is Feardragon's Breaking Out show.
There is content out there, there are people actually TRYING to improve NA. They don't get any support except for a very small devoted crowd of quality fans.
The problem isn't Blizzard's to fix. It's NA's own fan base. Europe is doing just fine despite Korean global domination because their fans actually support their players and their teams. NA's fans don't. That's the truth of it.
On April 08 2014 23:55 SoFrOsTy wrote: The only reason I dislike the regional separation, is because horrible players like OZ and Revival are able to get to the quarter finals when they are mediocre ladder players at best.
Oz and Revival are mediocre ladder players? OO
The two people who took 1st and 2nd at IEM Shanghai not too long ago? You must have really high standards for what constitutes better than 'mediocre'.
aw there's a pinch of salt in there. I honestly don't hold IEM to the same standard as a lot of other tournaments. What constitutes as a major tournament and a premiere tournament varies from person to person. Most of the time it just comes across as jargon to me. I remember when EG signed them and I thought surely they'd help, but I always viewed them as middle of the road guys who would definitely help a team in like lets say PL especially when your roster is thin. They can exceed expectations from time to time. I wouldn't consider them regular contenders though.
On April 08 2014 23:55 SoFrOsTy wrote: The only reason I dislike the regional separation, is because horrible players like OZ and Revival are able to get to the quarter finals when they are mediocre ladder players at best.
Oz and Revival are mediocre ladder players? OO
The two people who took 1st and 2nd at IEM Shanghai not too long ago? You must have really high standards for what constitutes better than 'mediocre'.
aw there's a pinch of salt in there. I honestly don't hold IEM to the same standard as a lot of other tournaments. What constitutes as a major tournament and a premiere tournament varies from person to person. Most of the time it just comes across as jargon to me. I remember when EG signed them and I thought surely they'd help, but I always viewed them as middle of the road guys who would definitely help a team in like lets say PL especially when your roster is thin. They can exceed expectations from time to time. I wouldn't consider them regular contenders though.
I think it's fair to say something like that when you look at IEM Sao Paolo for instance, but that one in particular had some pretty sick Korean representation and not the worst foreigners either.
@Banerider: Do you realize that you are basically saying that someone native to the NA region deserves to go to college more than an asian kid, whose family came to U.S to make something of themselves, and busts his ass to get good scores on exams? Your logic is flawed as fuck, I'm sorry. If one DESERVES something, then one should get it; race, creed, color, or anything else does NOT FUCKING MATTER.
Dude, I want a chance to see WCS AM with, you know Americans, because that would be fun to watch. You can have your world finals with all Koreans, I'm totally fine with that.
I see 21 americans in WCS NA. What are you talking about? (Not even counting SEA players that don't even have a WCS)
On April 09 2014 10:23 AceOfCakez wrote: Look at all this great "American" talent we have here for WCS America.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/shiroiusagi/wcs/wcs_na_lr.jpg)
Liquid`TaeJa, 
ESC.Arthur, ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/WCS2014/America_1/ro8bracket_1.png)
TooDming nearly made it through, but was defeated 2-1 by Arthur in the deciding match of Group C.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QDHoL73.png)
