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On April 08 2014 16:37 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 16:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 08 2014 16:11 playa wrote:There was a post on reddit about Blizzard not even promoting WCS AM the other day. They're probably embarrassed by this tournament and where it's taking place. Who is thrilled at the moment? Are you for real? Do you actually exist as a human being who thinks these things? Because if you've been paying ANY attention to this thread whatsoever, plenty of people are thrilled. In fact, if WCS AM becomes 100% Korean, I'll be even more thrilled than I am now. I won't lie, a very tiny bit of that will be out of spite. Plenty of people? This is getting no more viewers than shoutcraft got. When Blizzard doesn't bother to promote it, that's kinda telling. When the business that is running WCS stops running it, mid-season, you know things aren't so hot.
Yes, but it's not just today's viewer numbers that are at stake, is it? Blizzcon viewership is also at stake, and that's a huge deal for Blizzard. If half of the first round is Koreans dominating Americans, here's what happens: lots of viewers don't watch (the advertisements), casters end up being brutally honest and bringing down the hype OR embarrassing themselves by overhyping shitty games, the organizers can't construct an entertaining narrative because they have to guess which games get cast by Apollo vs. which games get handed off to unaffiliated D-list casters -- people don't just watch games based on who's playing, they watch games based on who's casting, too.
You keep thinking of WCS AM as a contained entity, but it isn't. It's a part of WCS and it feeds into the world finals. That aspect of it is more important than the part that is WCS AM, both to many viewers and, as evidenced by their lack of action, to Blizzard.
I'm very excited to tune into WCS AM for the first time ever for this RO8! 
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I wish there were more NA players, but it does to some degree fall onto them.
I do take issue with the fact we're still talking about regions, when in reality it might be the most fun to just combine all the WCS regions into one entirely global thing. It's so korean dominated that to call it WCS America is hardly genuine.
One of the main reasons I've 99% stopped watching pro starcraft is no westerners, no hype. I came back to watch shoutcraft, and apart form that have watched a couple streams rarely.
I"d much rather watch some random NA dota teams than a bunch of noname koreans in WCS america. I wish we could get some more americans to the top, but as the system is it seems unlikely they will get to the top. We're at a place where WCS America is really WCS Sponsored korean in hte Ro8+, and I don't see that changing. (for good reason). But trying to reconcile it being WCS 'america' with that fact is the sticking point for me.
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On April 08 2014 18:31 Froadac wrote:
I wish there were more NA players, but it does to some degree fall onto them.
I do take issue with the fact we're still talking about regions, when in reality it might be the most fun to just combine all the WCS regions into one entirely global thing. It's so korean dominated that to call it WCS America is hardly genuine.
One of the main reasons I've 99% stopped watching pro starcraft is no westerners, no hype. I came back to watch shoutcraft, and apart form that have watched a couple streams rarely.
I"d much rather watch some random NA dota teams than a bunch of noname koreans in WCS america. I wish we could get some more americans to the top, but as the system is it seems unlikely they will get to the top. We're at a place where WCS America is really WCS Sponsored korean in hte Ro8+, and I don't see that changing. (for good reason). But trying to reconcile it being WCS 'america' with that fact is the sticking point for me.
If you look at the people who made the Ro8 this season and also at some of those who got eliminated and can say with a straight face and genuine seriousness that they're "a bunch of noname koreans" then perhaps we are better off without you watching.
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On April 08 2014 18:31 Froadac wrote:
I wish there were more NA players, but it does to some degree fall onto them.
I do take issue with the fact we're still talking about regions, when in reality it might be the most fun to just combine all the WCS regions into one entirely global thing. It's so korean dominated that to call it WCS America is hardly genuine.
One of the main reasons I've 99% stopped watching pro starcraft is no westerners, no hype. I came back to watch shoutcraft, and apart form that have watched a couple streams rarely.
I"d much rather watch some random NA dota teams than a bunch of noname koreans in WCS america. I wish we could get some more americans to the top, but as the system is it seems unlikely they will get to the top. We're at a place where WCS America is really WCS Sponsored korean in hte Ro8+, and I don't see that changing. (for good reason). But trying to reconcile it being WCS 'america' with that fact is the sticking point for me.
WCS America, has and always has been - by Blizzard's definition - a tournament played IN America. That's it. Anyone else who thinks otherwise is making up their own definition or their own analogy to other sports. Argue all you want if you think it should be different, or that Americans should get more protected spots, whatever - but that was never the initial intention from the get-go. Blizzard has done a lot of stupid and illogical things before, but I find it really unlikely that they would think that having a tournament in America would stop Koreans from coming to dominate.
The simple fact of the matter is, the NA scene is really bad. They've been bad, and they're probably continuing to be bad. There are some really awesome foreigners like Scarlett, and Naniwa (RIP) and lots of people who are up and coming that can compete in their own regions (Neeb, Major, Xeno, Minigun, etc) but everyone knows that the true attraction for viewers is when a foreign player can play against a Korean. Despite the fact that there are so many more online tournaments, smaller tournaments and movements to get NA players together like what's in Korea, no one in NA really is taking advantage of it, nor are they practicing as hard, or harder than even the semi-pro Koreans. So why should we as a community give spots for them? If you want to see home-grown talent, go find some of the smaller tournaments and it's filled with mid/high GM's and NA pros that are grinding out for their bit of money. NA as a scene hasn't proven itself capable to succeed even when given all these advantages, so why bother?
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On April 08 2014 17:03 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 16:50 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On April 08 2014 13:05 Chaggi wrote:On April 08 2014 13:01 playa wrote:On April 08 2014 12:50 Chaggi wrote:On April 08 2014 12:43 playa wrote:On April 08 2014 12:19 Sevre wrote:
As much as I do not want to wade into this, I can't resist but point out the flaw in the "national pride" argument. People only want to watch out of nationalistic desire when the presence of another nationality poses an obstacle. Keeping Koreans out of leagues isn't going to increase viewer numbers. We're more interested in seeing Scarlett stomp Koreans than seeing Scarlett stomp local players.
I want to see the Korean dominance end as much as the next foreigner, but that requires skill and resources which the scene just doesn't have, and region locking to create this veneer of regional pride is not going to help the scene.
You're missing the point. To be the best at anything, you need to have talent + dedication + sufficient income. Until being one of the best players in a country means some financially, how can you grow your talent base? How can you keep your talent in the game? If it's a hobby to one person and a job to another, that gap in skill should never close. You have to increase the number of people that can pursue it as a job. People who scoff at the NA scene need some perspective. Is there any profession in the NA where you could say you're in the top 32 of the NA, yet you still have to call it a hobby? It makes no sense for NA players to be in such of a predicament. That's a recipe for a dead game, when people have no incentive to be one of the best in the NA. We're not talking about a small scope, either. We're talking about being amongst the best, out of hundreds of thousands of people. You can't compete with Koreans until you attract more talent and create more jobs for said players, enabling them to practice 8 hours instead of working another job on the side for 8 hours a day.... Idra has gone from one of the better players in the NA to being out of the scene. It's insane to lose such a fan draw + talented player due to only rewarding like the best 32 players in the whole world. He retired after he failed to qualify for WCS. You know, the tournament that has essentially become the only tournament... No one has more money in the scene than Blizzard. It is their game. If Blizzard isn't going to take charge in growing scenes, then who is? This game needs to grow, because at it's current state, its not exactly encouraging anyone to do much of anything. There are probably hobbies/professions like that, you've just never heard of them for that very reason. People talk about the NA region like they need help, but honestly - it's up to the players to actually practice and compete. Stop depending on Blizzard to do something, if they wanted to create a viable NA scene, they would've done it by now. That's the thing, though. They have acknowledged this and realized it was idiotic to keep it how it was, whether people understand this or not. The problem is now the pace that changes actually take effect. They try to be politically correct, though, and hope things will work themselves out. They don't want to get their hands dirty so to speak, but they fail to realize the absurdity of relying on kids like neeb, who are still in school, to knock out Korean pros who play 14 hours a day. You have to be a little more proactive than that. Why ignore the fact that there are lots of Koreans that are also in school, that are better than pretty much any American pro/streamer, and yet can't get past Code B/A or stay on a team? Or about the fact that Life, Maru are still in high school just like your neeb example. It's not like the world is different in Korea. The biggest advantage that Korea has is that it's smaller than America, and people can travel easily, but it doesn't change the fact that players, pro or semi-pro, don't play as well as any Korean that's putting any bit of time. They come on the forums and complain about it, and when the community (read: TotalBiscuit), gives them a tournament to actually compete in, players just randomly drop out and don't show up and it becomes a huge drama shitfest. It's easy Chaggi, he ignores that part because it makes his argument look silly and stupid (which it is) even though it's true. To add to this, Korean players get much fewer opportunities to prove themselves or earn any money simply because there are so very few tournaments there. Stuff like the ESV Weeklies, the EWM, the KSL, FXO invitationals and KotH events and various other online tournaments helped a bit, but those are long gone. And yet you don't see them beg for charity and whine on forums about it... You have a cutthroat environment that breeds strong players as a result of how fierce the competition is and how scarce the opportunities are. Why should they be less deserving of success than the people who don't even bother to do well in the tournaments that are at their doorstep or in which they're seeded/invited? Why should they be less deserving of opportunities than the people who repeatedly have shown that they don't give enough of a shit about the tons of opportunities they're already given to begin with? If anyone thinks "charity" events for a certain region are needed, I don't fundamentally disagree with that idea. But that certain region would have to be Korea. I ignored it because it deserved to be ignored. It would be different if it wasn't a Korean saying it. This guy knows better, though. That's like tooting your horn because you're a Canadian kid that happens to be better at hockey than a Mexican in Mexico. Wow, that's says a lot. Pat on the back. That just stresses the importance of comparing people who play in the same environment. Minigun could be just as talented, if not more talented, than any Korean, but if he can't practice against Koreans (which he can't), simply due to where he is located, then how the hell are these players supposed to get better if every practice game they play, they are playing against weaker opponents? Then, you add in that he is going to college, yet players like this are supposed to fare well against Koreans. It's a testament to how talented some of these players are in the NA that they can do anything. The sentiment has always been to be the best, you have to move to Korea. We have what, 1 team house here? It's a joke playing in NA. No one plays SC 2 competitively here, in NA, as there is no reason to try to. Who is going to coach you? Even if we had a similarly talented player as Maru, it would just be wasted. He'd prob be going to school and working... and wondering where can I get coaching to take me to the next level? He would prob be better off playing LoL.
You can easily play against better players from the west coast without moving to Korea. People have said that the ping isn't really that bad, and you see people in NA do that.
You bring up this school argument again and again, but I feel like you don't really understand that Koreans have lives outside of SC too, and that there's arguably even more pressure to do well in school here considering a stupid amount of people in Korea have college degrees and yet no one's hiring in the current economic recession that is Korea now. Korea's not some magical fucking place where you have no responsibilities and can just play games all day. These kids literally sacrifice their childhoods to play games 12-14+ hours a day, while taking care of, or flat out neglecting their responsibilities for the future. They literally are going all-in on a career choice that's already insanely saturated in Korea.
Sucks they're not white and can't just stream and make at least some money.
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On April 08 2014 17:03 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 16:50 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On April 08 2014 13:05 Chaggi wrote:On April 08 2014 13:01 playa wrote:On April 08 2014 12:50 Chaggi wrote:On April 08 2014 12:43 playa wrote:On April 08 2014 12:19 Sevre wrote:
As much as I do not want to wade into this, I can't resist but point out the flaw in the "national pride" argument. People only want to watch out of nationalistic desire when the presence of another nationality poses an obstacle. Keeping Koreans out of leagues isn't going to increase viewer numbers. We're more interested in seeing Scarlett stomp Koreans than seeing Scarlett stomp local players.
I want to see the Korean dominance end as much as the next foreigner, but that requires skill and resources which the scene just doesn't have, and region locking to create this veneer of regional pride is not going to help the scene.
You're missing the point. To be the best at anything, you need to have talent + dedication + sufficient income. Until being one of the best players in a country means some financially, how can you grow your talent base? How can you keep your talent in the game? If it's a hobby to one person and a job to another, that gap in skill should never close. You have to increase the number of people that can pursue it as a job. People who scoff at the NA scene need some perspective. Is there any profession in the NA where you could say you're in the top 32 of the NA, yet you still have to call it a hobby? It makes no sense for NA players to be in such of a predicament. That's a recipe for a dead game, when people have no incentive to be one of the best in the NA. We're not talking about a small scope, either. We're talking about being amongst the best, out of hundreds of thousands of people. You can't compete with Koreans until you attract more talent and create more jobs for said players, enabling them to practice 8 hours instead of working another job on the side for 8 hours a day.... Idra has gone from one of the better players in the NA to being out of the scene. It's insane to lose such a fan draw + talented player due to only rewarding like the best 32 players in the whole world. He retired after he failed to qualify for WCS. You know, the tournament that has essentially become the only tournament... No one has more money in the scene than Blizzard. It is their game. If Blizzard isn't going to take charge in growing scenes, then who is? This game needs to grow, because at it's current state, its not exactly encouraging anyone to do much of anything. There are probably hobbies/professions like that, you've just never heard of them for that very reason. People talk about the NA region like they need help, but honestly - it's up to the players to actually practice and compete. Stop depending on Blizzard to do something, if they wanted to create a viable NA scene, they would've done it by now. That's the thing, though. They have acknowledged this and realized it was idiotic to keep it how it was, whether people understand this or not. The problem is now the pace that changes actually take effect. They try to be politically correct, though, and hope things will work themselves out. They don't want to get their hands dirty so to speak, but they fail to realize the absurdity of relying on kids like neeb, who are still in school, to knock out Korean pros who play 14 hours a day. You have to be a little more proactive than that. Why ignore the fact that there are lots of Koreans that are also in school, that are better than pretty much any American pro/streamer, and yet can't get past Code B/A or stay on a team? Or about the fact that Life, Maru are still in high school just like your neeb example. It's not like the world is different in Korea. The biggest advantage that Korea has is that it's smaller than America, and people can travel easily, but it doesn't change the fact that players, pro or semi-pro, don't play as well as any Korean that's putting any bit of time. They come on the forums and complain about it, and when the community (read: TotalBiscuit), gives them a tournament to actually compete in, players just randomly drop out and don't show up and it becomes a huge drama shitfest. It's easy Chaggi, he ignores that part because it makes his argument look silly and stupid (which it is) even though it's true. To add to this, Korean players get much fewer opportunities to prove themselves or earn any money simply because there are so very few tournaments there. Stuff like the ESV Weeklies, the EWM, the KSL, FXO invitationals and KotH events and various other online tournaments helped a bit, but those are long gone. And yet you don't see them beg for charity and whine on forums about it... You have a cutthroat environment that breeds strong players as a result of how fierce the competition is and how scarce the opportunities are. Why should they be less deserving of success than the people who don't even bother to do well in the tournaments that are at their doorstep or in which they're seeded/invited? Why should they be less deserving of opportunities than the people who repeatedly have shown that they don't give enough of a shit about the tons of opportunities they're already given to begin with? If anyone thinks "charity" events for a certain region are needed, I don't fundamentally disagree with that idea. But that certain region would have to be Korea. I ignored it because it deserved to be ignored. It would be different if it wasn't a Korean saying it. This guy knows better, though. That's like tooting your horn because you're a Canadian kid that happens to be better at hockey than a Mexican in Mexico. Wow, that's says a lot. Pat on the back. That just stresses the importance of comparing people who play in the same environment. Minigun could be just as talented, if not more talented, than any Korean, but if he can't practice against Koreans (which he can't), simply due to where he is located, then how the hell are these players supposed to get better if every practice game they play, they are playing against weaker opponents? Then, you add in that he is going to college, yet players like this are supposed to fare well against Koreans. It's a testament to how talented some of these players are in the NA that they can do anything. The sentiment has always been to be the best, you have to move to Korea. We have what, 1 team house here? It's a joke playing in NA. No one plays SC 2 competitively here, in NA, as there is no reason to try to. Who is going to coach you? Even if we had a similarly talented player as Maru, it would just be wasted. He'd prob be going to school and working... and wondering where can I get coaching to take me to the next level? He would prob be better off playing LoL.
Polt is both studying and playing in the US, yet he just keeps getting better and better. That must seem like magic to you. The reason that Polt was first in his group and Minigun was 4th isn't that Minigun doesn't have the same opportunity as Polt. It's just that Polt practises harder and more methodically.
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On April 08 2014 17:03 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 16:50 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On April 08 2014 13:05 Chaggi wrote:On April 08 2014 13:01 playa wrote:On April 08 2014 12:50 Chaggi wrote:On April 08 2014 12:43 playa wrote:On April 08 2014 12:19 Sevre wrote:
As much as I do not want to wade into this, I can't resist but point out the flaw in the "national pride" argument. People only want to watch out of nationalistic desire when the presence of another nationality poses an obstacle. Keeping Koreans out of leagues isn't going to increase viewer numbers. We're more interested in seeing Scarlett stomp Koreans than seeing Scarlett stomp local players.
I want to see the Korean dominance end as much as the next foreigner, but that requires skill and resources which the scene just doesn't have, and region locking to create this veneer of regional pride is not going to help the scene.
You're missing the point. To be the best at anything, you need to have talent + dedication + sufficient income. Until being one of the best players in a country means some financially, how can you grow your talent base? How can you keep your talent in the game? If it's a hobby to one person and a job to another, that gap in skill should never close. You have to increase the number of people that can pursue it as a job. People who scoff at the NA scene need some perspective. Is there any profession in the NA where you could say you're in the top 32 of the NA, yet you still have to call it a hobby? It makes no sense for NA players to be in such of a predicament. That's a recipe for a dead game, when people have no incentive to be one of the best in the NA. We're not talking about a small scope, either. We're talking about being amongst the best, out of hundreds of thousands of people. You can't compete with Koreans until you attract more talent and create more jobs for said players, enabling them to practice 8 hours instead of working another job on the side for 8 hours a day.... Idra has gone from one of the better players in the NA to being out of the scene. It's insane to lose such a fan draw + talented player due to only rewarding like the best 32 players in the whole world. He retired after he failed to qualify for WCS. You know, the tournament that has essentially become the only tournament... No one has more money in the scene than Blizzard. It is their game. If Blizzard isn't going to take charge in growing scenes, then who is? This game needs to grow, because at it's current state, its not exactly encouraging anyone to do much of anything. There are probably hobbies/professions like that, you've just never heard of them for that very reason. People talk about the NA region like they need help, but honestly - it's up to the players to actually practice and compete. Stop depending on Blizzard to do something, if they wanted to create a viable NA scene, they would've done it by now. That's the thing, though. They have acknowledged this and realized it was idiotic to keep it how it was, whether people understand this or not. The problem is now the pace that changes actually take effect. They try to be politically correct, though, and hope things will work themselves out. They don't want to get their hands dirty so to speak, but they fail to realize the absurdity of relying on kids like neeb, who are still in school, to knock out Korean pros who play 14 hours a day. You have to be a little more proactive than that. Why ignore the fact that there are lots of Koreans that are also in school, that are better than pretty much any American pro/streamer, and yet can't get past Code B/A or stay on a team? Or about the fact that Life, Maru are still in high school just like your neeb example. It's not like the world is different in Korea. The biggest advantage that Korea has is that it's smaller than America, and people can travel easily, but it doesn't change the fact that players, pro or semi-pro, don't play as well as any Korean that's putting any bit of time. They come on the forums and complain about it, and when the community (read: TotalBiscuit), gives them a tournament to actually compete in, players just randomly drop out and don't show up and it becomes a huge drama shitfest. It's easy Chaggi, he ignores that part because it makes his argument look silly and stupid (which it is) even though it's true. To add to this, Korean players get much fewer opportunities to prove themselves or earn any money simply because there are so very few tournaments there. Stuff like the ESV Weeklies, the EWM, the KSL, FXO invitationals and KotH events and various other online tournaments helped a bit, but those are long gone. And yet you don't see them beg for charity and whine on forums about it... You have a cutthroat environment that breeds strong players as a result of how fierce the competition is and how scarce the opportunities are. Why should they be less deserving of success than the people who don't even bother to do well in the tournaments that are at their doorstep or in which they're seeded/invited? Why should they be less deserving of opportunities than the people who repeatedly have shown that they don't give enough of a shit about the tons of opportunities they're already given to begin with? If anyone thinks "charity" events for a certain region are needed, I don't fundamentally disagree with that idea. But that certain region would have to be Korea. I ignored it because it deserved to be ignored. It would be different if it wasn't a Korean saying it. This guy knows better, though. That's like tooting your horn because you're a Canadian kid that happens to be better at hockey than a Mexican in Mexico. Wow, that's says a lot. Pat on the back. That just stresses the importance of comparing people who play in the same environment.
You make more sense than FOX news. guy.
just brilliant use of FOX logic and common sense over here...
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On April 08 2014 17:48 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 16:37 playa wrote:On April 08 2014 16:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 08 2014 16:11 playa wrote:There was a post on reddit about Blizzard not even promoting WCS AM the other day. They're probably embarrassed by this tournament and where it's taking place. Who is thrilled at the moment? Are you for real? Do you actually exist as a human being who thinks these things? Because if you've been paying ANY attention to this thread whatsoever, plenty of people are thrilled. In fact, if WCS AM becomes 100% Korean, I'll be even more thrilled than I am now. I won't lie, a very tiny bit of that will be out of spite. Plenty of people? This is getting no more viewers than shoutcraft got. When Blizzard doesn't bother to promote it, that's kinda telling. When the business that is running WCS stops running it, mid-season, you know things aren't so hot. Yes, but it's not just today's viewer numbers that are at stake, is it? Blizzcon viewership is also at stake, and that's a huge deal for Blizzard. If half of the first round is Koreans dominating Americans, here's what happens: lots of viewers don't watch (the advertisements), casters end up being brutally honest and bringing down the hype OR embarrassing themselves by overhyping shitty games, the organizers can't construct an entertaining narrative because they have to guess which games get cast by Apollo vs. which games get handed off to unaffiliated D-list casters -- people don't just watch games based on who's playing, they watch games based on who's casting, too. You keep thinking of WCS AM as a contained entity, but it isn't. It's a part of WCS and it feeds into the world finals. That aspect of it is more important than the part that is WCS AM, both to many viewers and, as evidenced by their lack of action, to Blizzard. I'm very excited to tune into WCS AM for the first time ever for this RO8!
I see some bullshit never changes here. Last time I checked the viewer base hasn't changed all that much. Casters have always over hype the games. They've always tried to sell them. Same deal with storytelling bud. We've been knocking the organizers for years about that.
You are spewing out the same old crap.
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Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
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On April 08 2014 20:25 gold_ wrote:
Viewer base will continue to drop due to no home town heros to cheer for. I am not bashing the koreans at all, but WCS America should've been at least people LIVING in any part of the Americas only. I personally have stopped watching, Koreans have their own WCS FFS.
Polt
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why are people still crying about this? it was obvious it was gonna happen sooner or later and eventually the professional sc2 scene will completely die off outside of korea similar to BW.basically one can look at the course of the BW professional scene and accurately predict the course the SC2 scene is going to take
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Blizzard really messed up when they changed formats from 2012 to 2013. In 2012, they had a very cool format that needed some tweaks and suffered from a few execution issues. Despite the issues, the European final was one of the highlights in all of Starcraft 2 history. The AM final was unfortunately tacked onto another event, but still was pretty cool to see Scarlett (the Canadian champion) play Vibe (the US champion) for the American championship.
If Blizzard would have tweaked the format a little to reduce travel costs and made it more than a once a year event, they could have really done something good for the scene. All they really needed to do was reduce the numbers that played at a live event from 64 (in USA) down to 16 or 8. Similarly reduce the regional final numbers, and then only do the global final once a year at Blizzcon with just 2-3 AM region representatives. Then they would have spent around the same amount of money while holding 3-4 WCS events each year.
The 2012 structure helped the Canadian and American scenes, but had the issue of only being once a year. Guys that put the work in actually had something to play for, even if it was just for that brief couple of months. I watched live as a little known streamer named Avilo played in one of the last qualifiers to get to the US championships. It was an awesome emotional moment when he made it.
I know what Scarlett (2012 -1st), Vibe (2012 -2nd), Idra (2012 -3rd), Major (2012 -4th), Huk (2012 -5th), and Suppy (2012 -6th) all look like. I got to see their personality quirks during interviews pre and post matches and when they were in the booth. The American audience got to see their local players who come from the same area, speak the same language, and deal with similar issues they do. I started to care about these people because I got to know them just a little bit. I wanted to keep watching them as a fan. I also got to see their sponsors plastered all over their clothing, which is extremely important.
In 2014, that has all changed. Now, be the best American and you can make the Ro16. Great, you still get zero live exposure. That means your face never gets out there, and your sponsors never get any exposure. No exposure = no more sponsor and the money dries up. The idea of American team houses and full-time players goes away. Neeb might be the best US player right now, but he is a faceless American. It's appropriate that his liquipedia article has no image, and I didn't even know that he was on Fnatic until I just went to his page to see what he looked like.
To me, he's the same as a faceless Korean and he'll only ever become something more if he can ever break that barrier and get some real live exposure. That means he needs to beat a bunch of people who live in Korean team houses and train 8+ hours a day with other highly dedicated players. Without moving to the other side of the world, that opportunity doesn't exist for him. Neeb most likely isn't going to beat the Koreans and the Koreans will continue to get all the real exposure.
So good for the Koreans, right? No, and that's the real problem. It works when there's one or a very small handful of Koreans to be the bad guys that your local stars play against. They thrive in the villain role and get their own fan-base while earning a lot of prize money. Watching someone similar to you play against the best in the world is entertainment beyond the game itself that keeps you wanting more.
Now, when Americans watch Starcraft, it's a bunch of people who are from half a world away, come from a very different culture, give awkward interviews through translators, and deal with different issues than we're used to. I turn off the stream during most Korean interviews. Only a very rare few Koreans have actually tried to endear themselves to a western audience (Polt and MC come to mind) and I rarely have anyone to root for. The quality of the games themselves are quite high, but there's little outside of the game to be interested in. I don't care who wins. With most of the players involved, I might as well just watch replays.
How many people actually watch replays? It's rare.
And then the problem starts to poke through. Watching eight Koreans duke it out in the WCS AM is akin to watching replays for most Americans. So, they don't watch. If you have few watchers, then you can't profitably produce content and your product dies.
The SC2 viewer base is already on life-support in America. Keep pushing it for too much longer and it'll be gone. Then what? All those Koreans in WCS NA will have to go back to GSL and PL. Except, you've also killed the vast majority of American interest in Korean Starcraft. People that watch American Starcraft will occasionally want to see the game played at the highest level and tune in to Korea. I've done quite a few late night viewings of the GSL over the years, but my SC2 interest in the last year has seriously waned.
If those people (like me) no longer exist, you hurt GSL and PL viewership. You end up with a foreign viewer base for SC2 that will be similar in size to BW. That's not enough to support anything by itself, and this time around you don't have the massive popularity in Korea that you did with BW.
SC2 needs a foreign audience or else it crumbles in Korea too. Large-scale Korean participation in WCS AM is killing the American audience. You better hope that Europe holds on or else SC2 viewership will actually be dead worldwide. That's not good for anyone, foreigner or Korean.
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On April 08 2014 19:59 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 17:48 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 08 2014 16:37 playa wrote:On April 08 2014 16:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 08 2014 16:11 playa wrote:There was a post on reddit about Blizzard not even promoting WCS AM the other day. They're probably embarrassed by this tournament and where it's taking place. Who is thrilled at the moment? Are you for real? Do you actually exist as a human being who thinks these things? Because if you've been paying ANY attention to this thread whatsoever, plenty of people are thrilled. In fact, if WCS AM becomes 100% Korean, I'll be even more thrilled than I am now. I won't lie, a very tiny bit of that will be out of spite. Plenty of people? This is getting no more viewers than shoutcraft got. When Blizzard doesn't bother to promote it, that's kinda telling. When the business that is running WCS stops running it, mid-season, you know things aren't so hot. Yes, but it's not just today's viewer numbers that are at stake, is it? Blizzcon viewership is also at stake, and that's a huge deal for Blizzard. If half of the first round is Koreans dominating Americans, here's what happens: lots of viewers don't watch (the advertisements), casters end up being brutally honest and bringing down the hype OR embarrassing themselves by overhyping shitty games, the organizers can't construct an entertaining narrative because they have to guess which games get cast by Apollo vs. which games get handed off to unaffiliated D-list casters -- people don't just watch games based on who's playing, they watch games based on who's casting, too. You keep thinking of WCS AM as a contained entity, but it isn't. It's a part of WCS and it feeds into the world finals. That aspect of it is more important than the part that is WCS AM, both to many viewers and, as evidenced by their lack of action, to Blizzard. I'm very excited to tune into WCS AM for the first time ever for this RO8! I see some bullshit never changes here. Last time I checked the viewer base hasn't changed all that much. Casters have always over hype the games. They've always tried to sell them. Same deal with storytelling bud. We've been knocking the organizers for years about that. You are spewing out the same old crap.
the amount of viewers has most definetly decreased with rare exceptions like the blizzcon finals
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On April 08 2014 19:59 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 17:48 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 08 2014 16:37 playa wrote:On April 08 2014 16:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 08 2014 16:11 playa wrote:There was a post on reddit about Blizzard not even promoting WCS AM the other day. They're probably embarrassed by this tournament and where it's taking place. Who is thrilled at the moment? Are you for real? Do you actually exist as a human being who thinks these things? Because if you've been paying ANY attention to this thread whatsoever, plenty of people are thrilled. In fact, if WCS AM becomes 100% Korean, I'll be even more thrilled than I am now. I won't lie, a very tiny bit of that will be out of spite. Plenty of people? This is getting no more viewers than shoutcraft got. When Blizzard doesn't bother to promote it, that's kinda telling. When the business that is running WCS stops running it, mid-season, you know things aren't so hot. Yes, but it's not just today's viewer numbers that are at stake, is it? Blizzcon viewership is also at stake, and that's a huge deal for Blizzard. If half of the first round is Koreans dominating Americans, here's what happens: lots of viewers don't watch (the advertisements), casters end up being brutally honest and bringing down the hype OR embarrassing themselves by overhyping shitty games, the organizers can't construct an entertaining narrative because they have to guess which games get cast by Apollo vs. which games get handed off to unaffiliated D-list casters -- people don't just watch games based on who's playing, they watch games based on who's casting, too. You keep thinking of WCS AM as a contained entity, but it isn't. It's a part of WCS and it feeds into the world finals. That aspect of it is more important than the part that is WCS AM, both to many viewers and, as evidenced by their lack of action, to Blizzard. I'm very excited to tune into WCS AM for the first time ever for this RO8! I see some bullshit never changes here. Last time I checked the viewer base hasn't changed all that much. Casters have always over hype the games. They've always tried to sell them. Same deal with storytelling bud. We've been knocking the organizers for years about that. You are spewing out the same old crap.
I don't even know what you're talking about. Viewer base hasn't changed? I'm talking about what would happen to the viewer numbers at Blizzcon if half of Blizzcon was shitty American players. Obviously the numbers "haven't changed all that much" because Blizzard hasn't actually changed WCS to be this thing that playa wants it to be.
It is profitable for Blizzard to allow the best players in the world to compete at Blizzcon. Whether you think it's good or bad that nothing will change, nothing will change.
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On April 08 2014 21:40 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 19:59 StarStruck wrote:On April 08 2014 17:48 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 08 2014 16:37 playa wrote:On April 08 2014 16:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 08 2014 16:11 playa wrote:There was a post on reddit about Blizzard not even promoting WCS AM the other day. They're probably embarrassed by this tournament and where it's taking place. Who is thrilled at the moment? Are you for real? Do you actually exist as a human being who thinks these things? Because if you've been paying ANY attention to this thread whatsoever, plenty of people are thrilled. In fact, if WCS AM becomes 100% Korean, I'll be even more thrilled than I am now. I won't lie, a very tiny bit of that will be out of spite. Plenty of people? This is getting no more viewers than shoutcraft got. When Blizzard doesn't bother to promote it, that's kinda telling. When the business that is running WCS stops running it, mid-season, you know things aren't so hot. Yes, but it's not just today's viewer numbers that are at stake, is it? Blizzcon viewership is also at stake, and that's a huge deal for Blizzard. If half of the first round is Koreans dominating Americans, here's what happens: lots of viewers don't watch (the advertisements), casters end up being brutally honest and bringing down the hype OR embarrassing themselves by overhyping shitty games, the organizers can't construct an entertaining narrative because they have to guess which games get cast by Apollo vs. which games get handed off to unaffiliated D-list casters -- people don't just watch games based on who's playing, they watch games based on who's casting, too. You keep thinking of WCS AM as a contained entity, but it isn't. It's a part of WCS and it feeds into the world finals. That aspect of it is more important than the part that is WCS AM, both to many viewers and, as evidenced by their lack of action, to Blizzard. I'm very excited to tune into WCS AM for the first time ever for this RO8! I see some bullshit never changes here. Last time I checked the viewer base hasn't changed all that much. Casters have always over hype the games. They've always tried to sell them. Same deal with storytelling bud. We've been knocking the organizers for years about that. You are spewing out the same old crap. I don't even know what you're talking about. Viewer base hasn't changed? I'm talking about what would happen to the viewer numbers at Blizzcon if half of Blizzcon was shitty American players. Obviously the numbers "haven't changed all that much" because Blizzard hasn't actually changed WCS to be this thing that playa wants it to be. It is profitable for Blizzard to allow the best players in the world to compete at Blizzcon. Whether you think it's good or bad that nothing will change, nothing will change.
If LCS is any indication since they do exactly the same thing (everyone knows the Korean teams will win and are the best but they don't invite all Korean teams) it doesn't impact the viewership in a negative way at all
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I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc.
He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
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Wow much american. Such tourney.
User was warned for this post
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On April 08 2014 21:56 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 21:40 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 08 2014 19:59 StarStruck wrote:On April 08 2014 17:48 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 08 2014 16:37 playa wrote:On April 08 2014 16:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 08 2014 16:11 playa wrote:There was a post on reddit about Blizzard not even promoting WCS AM the other day. They're probably embarrassed by this tournament and where it's taking place. Who is thrilled at the moment? Are you for real? Do you actually exist as a human being who thinks these things? Because if you've been paying ANY attention to this thread whatsoever, plenty of people are thrilled. In fact, if WCS AM becomes 100% Korean, I'll be even more thrilled than I am now. I won't lie, a very tiny bit of that will be out of spite. Plenty of people? This is getting no more viewers than shoutcraft got. When Blizzard doesn't bother to promote it, that's kinda telling. When the business that is running WCS stops running it, mid-season, you know things aren't so hot. Yes, but it's not just today's viewer numbers that are at stake, is it? Blizzcon viewership is also at stake, and that's a huge deal for Blizzard. If half of the first round is Koreans dominating Americans, here's what happens: lots of viewers don't watch (the advertisements), casters end up being brutally honest and bringing down the hype OR embarrassing themselves by overhyping shitty games, the organizers can't construct an entertaining narrative because they have to guess which games get cast by Apollo vs. which games get handed off to unaffiliated D-list casters -- people don't just watch games based on who's playing, they watch games based on who's casting, too. You keep thinking of WCS AM as a contained entity, but it isn't. It's a part of WCS and it feeds into the world finals. That aspect of it is more important than the part that is WCS AM, both to many viewers and, as evidenced by their lack of action, to Blizzard. I'm very excited to tune into WCS AM for the first time ever for this RO8! I see some bullshit never changes here. Last time I checked the viewer base hasn't changed all that much. Casters have always over hype the games. They've always tried to sell them. Same deal with storytelling bud. We've been knocking the organizers for years about that. You are spewing out the same old crap. I don't even know what you're talking about. Viewer base hasn't changed? I'm talking about what would happen to the viewer numbers at Blizzcon if half of Blizzcon was shitty American players. Obviously the numbers "haven't changed all that much" because Blizzard hasn't actually changed WCS to be this thing that playa wants it to be. It is profitable for Blizzard to allow the best players in the world to compete at Blizzcon. Whether you think it's good or bad that nothing will change, nothing will change. If LCS is any indication since they do exactly the same thing (everyone knows the Korean teams will win and are the best but they don't invite all Korean teams) it doesn't impact the viewership in a negative way at all
LCS?
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On April 08 2014 22:12 TitusVI wrote:
I wonder who is the guy who makes the decisions about region lock etc.
He should maybe look around how other esports handle it and maybe get an idea of what goes wrong.
I'm sorry that you disagree with the WCS format but that doesn't make the format wrong
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Blizzard's attempt to create a "local scene" for "the Americas" has failed miserably.
these Korean players are not moving to Chicago, New York, Miami and Toronto in order to spread the gospel of SC2.
well except for Polt.
but , i do not think Blizzard's WCS structure did any thing at all to really influence Polt.
To create a "local scene" we need national champions who then meet in an Olympic style format... a small positive example of this was Scarlett in WCS 2012.
2011 had 7 GSL Seasons. 2014 is down to 3.
ticket sales and advertising revenue really can't support the WCS it really is relying more and more on Blizzard charity cash.
i wonder if next year's WCS will be a mix of HotS the MOBA and HotS the RTS
with HotS and HotS ... WCS will be twice as hot.
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EPT
